everyone's using too much hho

[motocross1550]

hi guys, i've been researching and talking with a performance shop about how much gasoline a normal small engine uses per min and the numbers are surprisingly low. i haven't had the time to build my own cell and fit it to my car but it looks like hho production is too much for the engines especially at idle. i know from experience that too much fuel produces less power and way less fuel economy. when i get some time i am going to test how little an engine needs to run on, but for now i was wondering if you guys could give me a little help. my research has shown that a car with a 1.5L engine only uses 0.4062794 liters/minute of gasoline cruising down the road. my research also shows that hydrogen burns alot hotter that gasoline, as much as 3 times hotter. which heat is a big thing with how and engine runs so according to the numbers ive been crunching it doesn't take much hho to actually run an engine at idle and at steady cruise. i am a master ASE auto technician and am quite learned in the ways of automobile engines. if you guys would toss some thoughts into the ring it would be great.

[myoldyourgold]

hi guys, i've been researching and talking with a performance shop about how much gasoline a normal small engine uses per min and the numbers are surprisingly low. i haven't had the time to build my own cell and fit it to my car but it looks like hho production is too much for the engines especially at idle. i know from experience that too much fuel produces less power and way less fuel economy. when i get some time i am going to test how little an engine needs to run on, but for now i was wondering if you guys could give me a little help. my research has shown that a car with a 1.5L engine only uses 0.4062794 liters/minute of gasoline cruising down the road. my research also shows that hydrogen burns alot hotter that gasoline, as much as 3 times hotter. which heat is a big thing with how and engine runs so according to the numbers ive been crunching it doesn't take much hho to actually run an engine at idle and at steady cruise. i am a master ASE auto technician and am quite learned in the ways of automobile engines. if you guys would toss some thoughts into the ring it would be great.

I think you will find it is not a simple as you first thought. I agree that at idle for a non commercial small vehicle no HHO is needed or such a little bit that it is not worth making it. At cruising it is also not very much. When you accelerate or when the engine is under much higher demand it takes more than you think. Because most are using a constant volume of HHO no one is getting the optimum use of the HHO. Some of us turn off at idle and that helps. The final results though are not that good on small engines or even engines up to 7 liters. The average savings of a good system is 20%. Yes there are some that do better but there are lots that see no gain. This does not make a very big dent in your pocket book unless you are a large commercial vehicle with over 1000 HP and burning 50 plus gallons per hour. Then 20% makes a big difference. Bottom line is for small engines to get enough gain the system has to be much more sophisticated and expensive which puts it out of the reach of most and beyond most DIY types. Here is some information to help you. HHO burns best at around 32 to 1. Use this to calculate how much you need. Off at idle. If you look at the BTU of HHO and compare it with gasoline or diesel you will have to agree with most scientists that you should not waste your money. So ignore that!! What is not taken into consideration is the burn rate and the fact that because of the fast burn there is less time for the heat to be absorbed into the engine (good) but is to fast to use to push the piston over enough degrees of the crank to get the maximum benefit. So you must come up with a system that uses the fast burn to expand the air/fuel/moisture in the combustion chamber over more crank degrees in order to see significant gains getting closer to running on just HHO. I do not personally think it is possible to run on just HHO on demand but you can get a lot better then 20% gains when you understand what is really happening. Maintaining the right ratio of HHO to fuel/air/moisture for all the different demands of the engine is what your goal should be. When done right you can use much more HHO than most are using. Changing ignition time and valve timing can help. There is much more but this will get you thinking. Have fun and be safe.

[sjrobinson]

My understanding of the way it worked was that the HHO really just made the combustion more complete. Allowing less gas to be used to create as much or more power. Its not exactly a fuel but more of an 'additive'. Im not sure if thats correct but thats what I gathered with my research.
From the amount you put in the engine the amount of heat generated is negligible. I imagine something as simple as a cold air intake would more than offset any of that.

[myoldyourgold]

Combustion makes air/moisture etc expand and push the piston down. When you have more expansion with less energy at the right crank angle and for the correct duration is what the game is really all about. Current engines are actually very efficient with only 2 to 3 % wastage. Some diesels are even better than that so there is not much room for improvement there. You will have to go much deeper into the process to make large gains.

[motocross1550]

you basically said what i was trying to say. using a constant supply of hho on an engine is overfueling the engine at idle if the generator produces enough to help at cruise. and i reread what i had thought to be how hot hydrogen burns and i misread it. on another note hydrogen does burn faster than gasoline and gasoline burns faster than diesel fuel and thats part of what makes diesel fuel more efficient than gasoline. its more of a burn than an explosion so the force is more gradual and easier to use by the piston. i wish there was an aftermarket computer with a air fuel ratio sensor that could control the gasoline part of the engine and the hho production part to keep the ratios closer to optimum. so it would lower hho output at idle and retard the timing at idle when hho is high and as demand increased it would alter timing and hho output accordingly. anyone know of a system like that? also found a page for hydrogen calculation help tools http://hydrogen.pnl.gov/cocoon/morf/...?canprint=true

[myoldyourgold]

There is much more to HHO than most understand. One of the biggest problems with most of the hydrogen generators is the balance of HHO you can feed into the system to make a difference in the mpg. You are using carbon in the form of gasoline or diesel. This can only accept so much more hydrogen in the process, according to the volume of fuel vapor in gasoline ( liquid gasoline doesn't burn, ask any fireman or intrinsic scientist) diesel is not quite the same. Second problem is the quick burn flame front of the hydrogen we are using(para or ortho). You have an exothermic reaction(explosion) occur, then an endothermic which quickly follows in the case of hydrogen. With gasoline and diesel, the endothermic reaction happens much later, after the exhaust stroke, (in the exhaust stream). Burning HHO doesn't allow the flame front when not done right to extend past the over travel of the power stroke by the cranking action to the exhaust stroke allowing fluid drive train movement.

Water injection in gasoline powered vehicles can be quite easily modified to burn the finely sprayed water with a very high powered spark. 60 kv or higher. This in effect makes the HHO in the combustion chamber, by passing every thing else and takes very little more power to do. This has been used in drag racing and NASCAR for years.

Getting HHO right is not easy at all. One has to be very patient and use a number of other things along with the HHO to see the benefits, or you will not be able to see much gains if any.

[abcab]

Water injection in gasoline powered vehicles can be quite easily modified to burn the finely sprayed water with a very high powered spark. 60 kv or higher. This in effect makes the HHO in the combustion chamber, by passing every thing else and takes very little more power to do. This has been used in drag racing and NASCAR for years.

Gees I typed this whole long darn reply and been logged off and lost everything by the time I hit the post button

OK, so I'm intrigued by the water injection comment and am wondering if this could be achieved in a diesel engine. Would it only work with an "external Electrical" source, or could the energy required not come from the combustion process itself. Water injection on a diesel does give some great positive MPG and power results.

I drive a old donkey diesel pre common rail truck. A little 2.7TD engine, so I base my questions and observations on this old technology.

On a petrol engine you could achieve progressive increase with the use of a "surge tank" setup and using the vacuum from the engine to draw off the HHO in a fixed ratio to throttle position.

Diesel has the problem of no vacuum. I was wondering if a surge tank between the HHO generator and the inlet can be fed with pressure/boost from the turbo that represents accurately throttle position. As the pressure increases in the surge tank it feeds the HHO to the inlet, but obviously now has a diluted mix as the pressure from the turbo is clean air.

Other issue may be that the HHO generator may have a problem overcoming the turbo pressure of around a bar. Then also not sure if the bubbler would have an issue with the pressure.

Cheers
Dave

[motocross1550]

the trick is getting peak pressure by 20 degrees past tdc, and since hho changes burn speed the trick will be tweaking the timing across the rpm range of the engine. i know once i start experimenting im going to run into problems i probably didn't know even existed, but i think i got a grasp on the basics. you sound like you know your stuff pretty well, once i start im gonna come to you first. i did plan on using hho with a water injection system, in conjunction with an air fuel ratio sensor and exhaust gas temp sensor so i can keep tabs on the mixture.

[myoldyourgold]

Gees I typed this whole long darn reply and been logged off and lost everything by the time I hit the post button

OK, so I'm intrigued by the water injection comment and am wondering if this could be achieved in a diesel engine. Would it only work with an "external Electrical" source, or could the energy required not come from the combustion process itself. Water injection on a diesel does give some great positive MPG and power results.

I drive a old donkey diesel pre common rail truck. A little 2.7TD engine, so I base my questions and observations on this old technology.

On a petrol engine you could achieve progressive increase with the use of a "surge tank" setup and using the vacuum from the engine to draw off the HHO in a fixed ratio to throttle position.

Diesel has the problem of no vacuum. I was wondering if a surge tank between the HHO generator and the inlet can be fed with pressure/boost from the turbo that represents accurately throttle position. As the pressure increases in the surge tank it feeds the HHO to the inlet, but obviously now has a diluted mix as the pressure from the turbo is clean air.

Other issue may be that the HHO generator may have a problem overcoming the turbo pressure of around a bar. Then also not sure if the bubbler would have an issue with the pressure.

Cheers
Dave

You are lucky I have a couple of minutes. Time is short at the moment. In your diesel I would suggest you install an adjustable pressure switch. You can use this to turn on things or increase your out put by turning on another reactor at certain pressure. It can be used very similar as vacuum. You can also have it set to turn off at idle/low pressure. You will need to understand how to use a number of relays. This is assuming that your diesel is turbo charged. Injecting post turbo is not possible in a normal setup. Some on this forum are doing it but I have found that for the additional savings it might not be worth it. That is my experience so far and experimenting is on going to find a cheaper less problematic method.

Water injection is used on diesels every day. It is not used to make HHO/hydrogen like I suggested but does add HP and keeps things cool unless you over do it. There are a lot of commercial water injection setups available that have the necessary safety things and would suggest you go that route unless you are very mechanically inclined and have a lot of experience.

[petergrote1911]

One Liter per Minute per 10 amps could be possible, if you run a 24V System with 8 Neutral Plates.