Non-Corrosive Electrolyte?

[Farrahday]

MOYG

It has to do with the type of gas that is produced.

I do not understand this statement. If the electrolytic compounds added to water play no part in the reaction at the electrodes, you only get oxygen and hydrogen produced, so what do you mean by 'type of gas'?

I thought that the EFIE was designed to solve these problems - why make life more difficult for yourself by not employing such a device?

We're lucky in that our engines are from 1970's and as such we don't have to worry about, ECUs and fuel sensors and fancy electronics. But I'm sure I'd be looking at using an EFIE if we needed to fool the sensors in a modern engine.

[astrocady]

If the electrolytic compounds added to water play no part in the reaction at the electrodes, you only get oxygen and hydrogen produced

This is not true with all electrolytes -- really is is only true of KOH. If you use baking soda as an electrolyte, the gas coming our of the reactor will contain hydrogen, oxygen, carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide. The carbon dioxide and carbon dioxide actually comprise about 30% of the gas. If you are using anything with salt in it you will be, in addition to hydrogen and oxygen, your cell will be producing chlorine and chloride gases.

[myoldyourgold]

I do not understand this statement. If the electrolytic compounds added to water play no part in the reaction at the electrodes, you only get oxygen and hydrogen produced, so what do you mean by 'type of gas'?

I thought that the EFIE was designed to solve these problems - why make life more difficult for yourself by not employing such a device?

We're lucky in that our engines are from 1970's and as such we don't have to worry about, ECUs and fuel sensors and fancy electronics. But I'm sure I'd be looking at using an EFIE if we needed to fool the sensors in a modern engine.

Since I am not a chemist I will not get into the subject of the types of gases that are produced with different additives or chemicals used as electrolyte. I can assure you with a Google search you would be much wiser than I am on the subject. Astrocady has given you an excellent example. I do know what kind of gas comes out of what I use which is proprietary at the moment and still being tested. MY object is to slow down the flame speed with out giving up anything and still getting a clean complete burn, which is not leaner than the ECU allows. This also needs to be done on the 70's cars to get the max out of everything. HHO has such a fast flame speed you can't take full advantage of it unless you slow it down. This is why most experimenters only get 10 to 25 percent gain with even an efficient reactor which most aren't.

EFIE's are illegal in many states. None that I know of have been approved. And I will not go there at the moment other than to test with when necessary. What others do is there business. I personally will not encourage anyone to brake the law. There are many ways to get around the problem and keep it legal. Electrolyte doping is just one.

[Farrahday]

This is not true with all electrolytes -- really is is only true of KOH. If you use baking soda as an electrolyte, the gas coming our of the reactor will contain hydrogen, oxygen, carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide. The carbon dioxide and carbon dioxide actually comprise about 30% of the gas. If you are using anything with salt in it you will be, in addition to hydrogen and oxygen, your cell will be producing chlorine and chloride gases.

Hi Astro, I know it's not true of all electrolyties, but I did say 'if the electrolytic compounds play no part in the reaction you will only get oxygen and hydrogen', and by this I was assuming that you would be using a substance that does not react at the electrodes.

Who in their right mind would use sodium chloride or baking soda?

KOH is the best basic electrolyte in terms of its efficiency because it ionises more readily than anything else, but it's certainly not the only electrolytic compound that does not react at the electrodes. The difference between good and bad - or rather, strong and weak - electrolytic compounds is simply their ability to dissociate into ions when added to water. Some substances, like KOH ionises nearly completely, whereas a portion of poorer electrolytes will remain as neutral molecules, and hence the substance is less effective as an electrolyte. But that is all.

Of course though, it is often far more complicated than we imagine anyway. For example, Sodium Chloride as an electrolyte does not always result in Chlorine gas and no Oxygen. Under certain conditions oxygen too can be evolved, but this has to do with specific electrolyte concentrations. Likewise if Chlorine is evolved rather than oxygen, then not all of it evolves as a gas. It is very soluble in water (think swimming pools) and some will react with the water to produce Hydrochloric acid and Hypochlorous acid.

Furthermore, in most cases, even if some of the electrolyte were to react at the electrode, it is such an incredibly small percentage as to be insignificant and certainly not worth losing sleep over.

The chemistry can get quite complex, but that's the fun part, trying to figure out what is happening and why?

One thing for sure though, if you know the chemical make-up of the substance you are using as an electrolyte, then there are only so many options as to the gases that can possibly evolve. It's definately worth getting to grips with the electrochemisty as it arms you with knowledge that can help you get a true insight into the reactions.

I've seen before, people talking about electrolysers evolving all sorts of exotic gases, and rather bizarrely sometimes involving elements that are not even present!

Take NaOH, Sodium Hydroxide, Na+ and OH-... what possible horrible gases can we get evolving from this electrolyte? Answer: Nothing!

The Sodium ion Na+ is going nowhere as it's competing with the much more reactive hydrogen H+ of the water molecule, and the hydroxide ion OH- is the same as what we get from the ionised water anyway.

The other thing people seem worried about is the caustic solution getting into the engine. Well there really should be no chance of this because if the cells get hot, all that is evaporating is water. Think about it, you boil a pan of salt water and eventually you will be left with the salt residue at the bottom of the pan - it does not boil off with the water.

It all makes for a very interesting subject doesn't it.

[D.O.G]

The other thing people seem worried about is the caustic solution getting into the engine. Well there really should be no chance of this because if the cells get hot, all that is evaporating is water. Think about it, you boil a pan of salt water and eventually you will be left with the salt residue at the bottom of the pan - it does not boil off with the water.

It all makes for a very interesting subject doesn't it.

Farrah,
I think that the "electrolyte in the engine" issue isn't caused by steam, but caused by lower temperature water vapour, which contains traces of electroyte.
I know that if I run with the top off my tank, I can see a small cloud of vapour. I run a couple of stainless steel wool scrubbers to control this.

Pete.

[myoldyourgold]

Pete you are right about the water vapor. The KOH is carried by the bubbles and when run through a clean water bubbler the bubbles are scrubbed on the outside but not the inside. This is why it is important to make very fine bubbles in the bubbler to keep as much as possible of the KOH from making it into the engine. It is not the KOH that harms anything but the process of striping the natural oxide off the aluminum and thus allows the moisture/water to have a strong reaction with the aluminum that will destroy it given enough time. There are lots of pictures posted showing the results. I believe there are some on this forum. To be very sure you can use two bubblers one with water and one with a mild acid to neutralize the KOH. I am testing a mixture in the second bubbler that does that and more with the vapor it carries out.

[Farrahday]

MOYG

I have to say I'm finding this all very odd.

the bubbles are scrubbed on the outside but not the inside

What?

How can KOH be carried by a bubble? A bubble is just our required gas in the confines of a liquid film, but the bubble should 'pop' as it leaves the surface of the liquid anyway, so leaving just our 'dry' gas. And if it doesn't sending it initially through a mesh grid/ss wool trap and then through a fine bubbler will do the trick. Furthermore, due to surface tension, bigger bubbles will collapse far easier than the smaller bubbles which are surely more capable of leaving the surface of the liquid and travelling further before collapsing.

Pete, I think by 'lower temperature water vapour' you mean micro-droplets of the solution, as water vapour is of course an invisible gas. Nevertheless, this too will also be effectively filtered out by passing through a ss wool trap and fine bubbler. And let's face it, for safety reasons alone, everyone should be using at least one bubbler and a stainless steel wool trap!

MOYG, do you really think doping a bubbler with an acid is a good idea? Aren't you simply introducing another possible source of engine corrosion?

Think about it, only when all the acid is neutralised by any tiny amounts of alkaline, will this solution be unreactive. Until then you have gases now bubbling through and possibly taking acid into your engine. To my mind you've simply swapped possible alkaline corrosion for possible acid corrosion and made life more complicated for yourself in the process!

These photos of corrosion you mention, are they all from electrolysers that are all unnecessarily doped up to the eyeballs by any chance?

Keep the electrolyte to a minimum, use a fine mesh filter, a SS wool trap and good fine bubbler and you will have nothing to worry about. You could also opt for a less corrosive electrolyte. I.e., use slightly more of a weaker electrolyte to reach the required current draw.

[myoldyourgold]

How can KOH be carried by a bubble? A bubble is just our required gas in the confines of a liquid film, but the bubble should 'pop' as it leaves the surface of the liquid anyway, so leaving just our 'dry' gas.

If that was exactly what happens then there would be no need for the bubbler as far as a scrubber goes. Just use something to brake the bubbles. This is very easy to test. Just take a piece of aluminum and direct the gas on to it. In time you will see what the problem is. Even what looks like dry gas to the eye does not mean it is dry and electrolyte free. The liquid film around the gas has an out side and an inside. Outside gets scrubbed but inside does not. When the bubble bursts there is micro droplets of electrolyte that have to be dealt with. It is not much but it is there. Testing by many have gone through all this many times before.

MOYG, do you really think doping a bubbler with an acid is a good idea? Aren't you simply introducing another possible source of engine corrosion?

Simple answer yes to the first ? and no the the 2nd ?. Normal engine oil is acidic and does no harm to the engine. There are may mild acidic chemicals that are helpful to the function of an engine which both lubricate, clean and some aid in the combustion process and are used in the tuning process. There is plenty of evidence of damaged aluminum parts because of an ineffective or non existing bubbler. It has been proven that the longer the bubble travels through the bubbler the cleaner it gets. Longer bubblers work better than short fat ones even if both have the same amount of water. A micro screen / stainless wool collects KOH and unless it is serviced on a regular bases it starts plugging up and the HHO going through starts picking up the KOH. I doubt that there is any system that gets it all out. Neutralizing it I believe is the only way.

In your testing what kind of mileage do you get and how long have you run a car using HHO? What design of bubbler do you use? You seam to have good knowledge of the subject maybe you could share a little of your real life experience with us. I am always looking for ways to improve my designs.

[Farrahday]

I see, it's not really about gas is it, as KOH, K+ or OH- do not leave the electrolytic solution as gases. It's all about some of the solution atomising an so (in liquid form) travelling with our gas to the engine. Your inside and outside bubble thing is what confuses me, but let's forget that.

This is the price people pay for using an unnecessary high concentration of caustic electrolyte.

Bubblers were originally incorporated to prevent flashbacks more than scrubbing the gas, and of course for those of us using low concentrations of less caustic electrolytes we do not have this corrosive issue to worry about. If you constantly have the solution clogging up mesh and traps then there is a serious design fault as you will obviously need to constantly replenish the electrolyte, which you should not really have to do.

I have used aquarium bubblers such as these in the past

http://www.porex.com/by_function/by_...um_bubbler.cfm

and not had them clog up.

I read some of the posts on engine corrosion here and was gobsmacked to find that some people were not even using a bubbler or flame trap of any kind! Blimey!

If normal engine oil is acidic, in theory at least, it should go some way to neutralising any basic caustic solution that reaches the engine. On the other hand an acid solution would increase the acidity... wouldn't it.

Curious, why don't you simply stop using KOH and use something less corrosive?

My work does not evolve around these 'dry cells', which I believe most of you are employing, and I'm a tube gal rather than plates. I never found hydroboosters to be very satisfactory and often - even if well designed, and without the problems of corrosive electrolytes - still more trouble than they were worth.

A friend of mine builds vehicle electrolysers for a living and can verify claims of improved MPG, but the electronics involved in fabricating a reliable commercial unit that meets all safety regs is quite extraordinary. If you care to take a look, this is his web site: http://www.thecell.net/home.html

As for me, well you can find me here: http://www.overunityresearch.com/ind...icseen#msg7606

I've attached a photo of an old multicell unit I made some years ago, so you can see the type of unit that I've been playing with.

[myoldyourgold]

Thank you Farrah. I wish you all the success possible in your endeavor. As far as The Cell (TM) goes all I can say is it is a professionally put together setup but results are behind the current technology and the company is in some serious trouble. I personally will stay away form all that.

I use an aquarium diffuser too. http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategor.../air%20stone/4 These are cleanable if necessary even with acids but if your setup has a good magnetic filter on it, and everything is done right, it will not be necessary.

I personally do not use an extremely concentrated electrolyte but still opt to use a second bubbler which aids in neutralizing any alkaline that might make it through but its main purpose is to assist in the combustion process. This is complicated and something that is still being tested and not up for discussion at the moment. There is the Winter problem with just plane water too that had to be addressed. In -40F you tend to freeze things up. LOL. I use no water in the winter. Lots of things to consider and the bubbler is actually almost as complex as the reactor itself.

Great picture of your tub setup. Nice work. I am interested in your findings when you can report on them.