the THERMOLYSIS thread (make HHO with high heat

[yellowsnow]

sorry i couldn't change the heading of my first thread and think it is important for people to unlock the possible overunity in thermolysis which can be discussed here. here is a link to my other thread with links, info, and ideas about thermolysis. http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=4300

[RustyLugNut]

No where in nature as well as human engineering, have I found any evidence of "over unity". What makes you think there is a possibility for it here in thermolysis?

I am very open to continue the discussion, but science and it's principles need to be the basis or nothing constructive will come of it.

Thanks,
Rusty

[Roland Jacques]

Rusty, Ohio State University has shown that spliting Amonia and Urea can produce more energy than it take to make it. OU? fits the def?

"Ammonia Electrolysis Cell – Research at Ohio University has shown that hydrogen is evolved by electrolysis of an aqueous ammonia solution at a small fraction of the electric energy required from water electrolysis. In fact, the energy contained in the hydrogen is greater than the electric energy required to produce it. The hydrogen is also free of contaminants, and suitable for use in PEM fuel cells or internal combustion engines. This approach, which is now being commercialized, opens up numerous opportunities for harvesting energy from animal waste and wastewaster. (Contact: Gerri Botte, Ohio University, 740-593-9670, botte@bobcat.ent.ohiou.edu or Ben Schafer, American Hydrogen Corporation, 503-645-2523, ben.schafer@hydrafuelcell.com)
http://www.ammoniafuelnetwork.org/projects.html

[Philldpapill]

Thermolysis is NOT over unity! Don't confuse "over unity" with injecting a different form of energy(heat) into a system. The same amount of energy is still required to split up the H20, no matter what form it is in.

From an engineering standpoint, using heat might be an easier option to split the water as it is very accessible and cheaper to extract than electricity(when you compare Watts per dollar).

[RustyLugNut]

There is often mistaken OU from the layperson who doesn't take into account the energy levels of compounds.

Wood is an obvious fuel that oxidizes into solids (ash) and CO2 and H20 (steam).

Urea and Ammonia are also fuels. They are usually produced by the catalytic reformation of natural gas. Energy is put into these compounds and when you extract them, your efficiency calculations need to take into account the initial input of energy.

Aluminum is usually not considered a fuel, but it can be thought of such in the right situation. Bauxite can be considered the ground state. Electric Arc purification ads energy to produce pure aluminum. The Al can be oxidized under water with an electric arc to produce Aluminum Oxide and H2 gas which can run your car (a French Patent). The energy inherent in the H2 gas is considerable, but will be less than the original electrical energy input. But, it is useful for propelling your Citroen.

The university reference paper used the net energy out from the baseline of the compounds - not their elemental ground state of N2, O2, H2 and C. If you construct the compounds from these elements, you will have to add energy - energy which you will not gain back in entirety when you electrolyze them and use the resultants.

[Roland Jacques]

Yep Yep, your right Rusty.

[MattReine]

If the statement that a HHO device produces more output with Thermolysis is true, then at what temp do you start to see an increase in output?

What is the sweet spot temp that gives you the most increase with the lowest amount of heat applied?

Could someone make an HHO device in here but with a high temp variable heating element built inside? Then you could using a flowmeter check the resulting output meanwhile upping the temp to prove this once and for all how much gain you get from this angle.

Its not over unity if you have to apply heat...Heat takes a lot of energy to make right? But what if you had a TON of excess heat and it was free to apply to the HHO unit. Then what?

Think car engine or exhaust manifold.. it gets red hot right? Hot enough to add benefit to HHO production? From looking up the numbers, correct me if Im wrong but
an average manifold gets to around 500 degrees celcius and according to wikipedia water takes around 2k celcius before it starts to breakdown.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_decomposition

So my question is using pre-heated water to 500c or 1k celcius... would that increase production of HHO?

[soda_pop503]

If the statement that a HHO device produces more output with Thermolysis is true, then at what temp do you start to see an increase in output?

What is the sweet spot temp that gives you the most increase with the lowest amount of heat applied?

Could someone make an HHO device in here but with a high temp variable heating element built inside? Then you could using a flowmeter check the resulting output meanwhile upping the temp to prove this once and for all how much gain you get from this angle.

Its not over unity if you have to apply heat...Heat takes a lot of energy to make right? But what if you had a TON of excess heat and it was free to apply to the HHO unit. Then what?

Think car engine or exhaust manifold.. it gets red hot right? Hot enough to add benefit to HHO production? From looking up the numbers, correct me if Im wrong but
an average manifold gets to around 500 degrees celcius and according to wikipedia water takes around 2k celcius before it starts to breakdown.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_decomposition

So my question is using pre-heated water to 500c or 1k celcius... would that increase production of HHO?

If you measure the output purely by LPM, it will go up as the temp of the cell increases, because the gas coming out will be hotter and more expanded even if there is not a greater amount of HHO molecules. So, the question is how would you actually measure the output and know that expansion is not a factor?

[RustyLugNut]

To Matt and Soda, I think it would be best to answer with a back to basics approach.

The basics of electrolysis are that a minimum charge potential in the area of 1.4 volts is needed to start splitting the water molecules. A current to provide the valence electrons to the H+ ions is also needed. An over voltage is thus necessary to drive this current. On a single cell unit, you can calculate the gas output by simply measuring the current into the cell. Since one coulomb of electron charges is passed every second by a current of one ampere, the number of monotomic hydrogen atoms produced is easy to deduce. I leave this as an exercise.

As more cells are added, in series, simply multiply the current by the number of cells to arrive at the output. However, if you have any current leakage, you will have to create a performance curve with which you can extrapolate output from measured data points. This is easy to do at or near STP, but as temperature increases, water vapor becomes significant as many people will attest, and cooling and condensation of the vapor will be necessary to get accurate data - but still very doable. At least until 100c when water boils, and then you will need to run your electrolysis cell under increasing pressures to keep water vapor manageable. Electrolysis is unaffected by pressure so your performance curve can still be followed to calculate your output by measuring current usage.

At some point, steam is unavoidable as temperature rises, and this is where steam electrolysis can continue the production of HHO. But, current is still necessary to supply the valence needs of the Hydrogen. However, the driving voltage can fall drastically - below the 1.4 volts needed at STP. This is where the efficiency of steam electrolysis comes to bear. Far less electrical power is needed to produce the same amount of hydrogen. The remaining energy comes from the added heat. The problem is then to separate the steam from the HHO, which is not a trivial engineering exercise.

A few companies are attempting to use concentrated solar, or nuclear waste heat to split water, with varying success, and long time-lines to market.

The bottom line for us, the garage tinkerer, is that increased electrolyte temperature means reduced operating voltages to drive the same current through our electrolysis cells. This gives us greater efficiency. We just have to deal with the increased production of water vapor.

[yellowsnow]

i still think there is something in THERMLYSIS.
as far as using the word overunity, well everyone hopes their idea would put out more than put in.

i still think an atomic hydrogen arc welder/torch, ran by a hho cell and the reasonable amount of elctricty needed to hold the arc, could produce enough heat to produce quit a bit of hho.

i have also been obsessed with the fact that steam will ignite/combust under 3200psi. and the fact that 1500 feet under water the water pressure would be a little over 3200psi.

so the question is if you had some kind of set up to use the water pressure to combust steam, would that create more energy than just using the water pressure to run a hydrolic pump? (which is already being done on a very very small size scale)