HHO injection on Diesels

[JojoJaro]

Folks, I have a 6.6L Duramax diesel.

Based on the onboard EFILive software that I have, my Equivalence Ratio is .625, which means I am already running lean. My engine has a MAF sensor but no O2 sensor.

So, if I am understanding this correctly, all I have to do is inject HHO and not worry about any electronic modifications, right? And the more HHO I can inject, the more MPG gains, correct? So, I don't need all these EFIE, O2 modifications etc, correct?

[1973dodger]

Yes and no. A diesel will not have an oxygen sensor, yet it will have a Map sensor. I have an 03 dodge ram w/ a 5.9 cummins, and like you have a turbo charger, so the only real choice we have, to date, is to inject our hho pre-turbo, which concerns me. My thought is the hho will dilute into the air before it reaches the intake valve, so I do think the more the better for a diesel. As to your claim, the more we make the higher the mpg, is an unknown. HHO has been around for a while now, yet there are many unknowns as to what amount is needed in respect to the many different types of engines out there. You are going to have to do like the rest of us, and just play with it. My suggestion is to not mess with the sensors until you have some more data for your particular applications. Just take it one step at a time. Hope this helps.

1973dodger

[SRN]

Yes and no. A diesel will not have an oxygen sensor, yet it will have a Map sensor. I have an 03 dodge ram w/ a 5.9 cummins, and like you have a turbo charger, so the only real choice we have, to date, is to inject our hho pre-turbo, which concerns me. My thought is the hho will dilute into the air before it reaches the intake valve, so I do think the more the better for a diesel. As to your claim, the more we make the higher the mpg, is an unknown. HHO has been around for a while now, yet there are many unknowns as to what amount is needed in respect to the many different types of engines out there. You are going to have to do like the rest of us, and just play with it. My suggestion is to not mess with the sensors until you have some more data for your particular applications. Just take it one step at a time. Hope this helps.

1973dodger
1973dodger

Hey buddy, I also have an 03' Cummins and am looking into adding HHO. Are you running any certain system? Results? I was looking at a pre built unit (PunchHHO), but don't know much as of now to make an informed decision. Love the diesels, just don't like filln' them up at the pump! Thanks

SRN

[HYDROTEKPRO]

Not to promote a competitor, we just haven't had our grand opening yet.

PunchHHO, from what I hear, are good people that will back you up with support. The word is that they DO know what they're doing, and you CAN trust them.

They've got a new larger unit for trucks, I'd go with that one. And ask 'em questions, I'm sure they'll take good care of you.

If we were open, I'd say check out our systems. But I can't say that since we're not open yet.

Get the big truck unit from PunchHHO.

[JojoJaro]

Any suggestion on what LPM I should be aiming for the max increase in MPG.

I've heard it suggested that you do .5 LPM for every 1 liter of cylinder size. My 06 Duramax has 6.6 Liters, so I should aim for 3.3 LPM?

I'm hoping to get over 4 LPM in my design but it may not be likely and may cost a lot of amps. (and heat).

What LPM do most of the 'Truck Units' produce?

[1973dodger]

Any suggestion on what LPM I should be aiming for the max increase in MPG.

I've heard it suggested that you do .5 LPM for every 1 liter of cylinder size. My 06 Duramax has 6.6 Liters, so I should aim for 3.3 LPM?

I'm hoping to get over 4 LPM in my design but it may not be likely and may cost a lot of amps. (and heat).

What LPM do most of the 'Truck Units' produce?

AHHH, the question all us us have come to. I can only tell you what has not worked yet. I have tried 2lpm with a 36 amp draw, seemed to help under hyw conditions only, 4mpg better. I am currently working on a 5lpm system with the same current draw and hope to have it installed this week. If it works I'll post results, if it does'nt I want waste your time.

1973dodger

[borescopeit]

Hi to everybody,
and I apologize for bringing up from the ashes this old topic.

Currently I am producing around 5-6 LPM with my system and inject HHO pre-turbo into my 12L VOLVO D12D diesel engine. My whole turbo charger system is redone so no air leaks are possible. My average mileage is 6.6 MPG aka 35.64 L/100km. I do not see any effect of HHO on fuel economy yet. May be not enough of HHO for my engine displacement + fuel consumption?

I am thinking of making venturi type post-turbo injection right before my air intake manifold, but max pressure the turbo pumps is 35 psi!

Any ideas or suggestions?

[myoldyourgold]

You will not see any gain unless you reduce the amount of diesel injected. You need to replace diesel with HHO and large amounts. Unless you reduce the amount of fuel injected or produce a more powerful HHO, or add other things into the mix. your gains will be small or none at all.

[borescopeit]

You will not see any gain unless you reduce the amount of diesel injected. You need to replace diesel with HHO and large amounts. Unless you reduce the amount of fuel injected or produce a more powerful HHO, or add other things into the mix. your gains will be small or none at all.

Well, the big rig HHO guys tell everybody that 1LPM for each 1 liter of engine displacement is needed. I do make 0.5 LPM for each liter of engine size now. I think I should see any fuel consumption improvement already. Also, I do have MAP sensor adjuster in place, but without right amount of HHO I cannot lean the air:fuel ratio without engine power loss.

[myoldyourgold]

You can inject up to 16 lpm into your 12L engine and will get some real gain but without reducing the diesel injected it will not happen in fact it drops off as you increase the HHO. Your diesel is a very good running engine and there is very little waste. Have you anylized your oil since you started running HHO and compared it with when you were not running HHO? Most of the reports of large gains are just not true unless they are reducing the amount of injected diesel and replacing it with HHO. This works only up to a point without loss of HP. I have no experience with your engine so can not give you real world figures except the 16 lpm. On older inefficient engines there is gain potential because there is a lot of wastage with lots of carbon and raw diesel going out the stack with out doing anything but adding HHO.

[borescopeit]

You can inject up to 16 lpm into your 12L engine and will get some real gain but without reducing the diesel injected it will not happen in fact it drops off as you increase the HHO. Your diesel is a very good running engine and there is very little waste. Have you anylized your oil since you started running HHO and compared it with when you were not running HHO? Most of the reports of large gains are just not true unless they are reducing the amount of injected diesel and replacing it with HHO. This works only up to a point without loss of HP. I have no experience with your engine so can not give you real world figures except the 16 lpm. On older inefficient engines there is gain potential because there is a lot of wastage with lots of carbon and raw diesel going out the stack with out doing anything but adding HHO.

Well, I already made a lots of modding to my engine and on average am getting from 6.3 to 7.3 MPG in winter, where other guys on their semi's sit near 5 MPG.

My oil is very clean with or w/o HHO since my EGRs are shut off, and I do Rotella T6 5W40 oil. I periodically check it at Speedco, an ran on it for about 100K miles so far.

Also, another thing is that my engine has >1M miles on its shoulders, and so far I am doing very well with my fuel economy, but... my goal is to bring my MPG up to 8 MPG and over, then I can prove the skeptics the HHO rulez a big time even on big rigs!

As to reducing the fuel consumption, I want to do that by adjusting Vout from my MAP sensor, but in order to compensate for less fuel injected I need to introduce HHO or compressed H2. Thus, as I understand, I fail here by generating not enough HHO.

A thing about injection method frustrates me, since I do it old dad's way - pre-turbo, but I want to inject it as close from air inlet manifold as possible, but how? Should I try to make a sort of venturi device to create vacuum at pressures up to 40 psi? Is that doable though?

[myoldyourgold]

Victor I am aware of a system that does inject under pressure after the turbo. I will try and find it and will send it to you. I believe the system is being built in Canada and has a patent which I should have a copy. It is very complex with lots of safety devices on it because of the pressures. This is not necessary though and will try and put you in touch with someone who is injecting 20 lpm and getting very good mileage, if I remember right, in a 16 L engine. He has the software to reprogram the cpu generating new maps etc. I will see if he will be willing to give you a hand. I have not communicated with him for over a year now but I do know he is still in the trucking business and is still using HHO and saving tons of money every year with a number of trucks. Some factory software allows you to de-tune your engine for lower HP by cutting back fuel. This might work and be what he is using.

[borescopeit]

Victor I am aware of a system that does inject under pressure after the turbo. I will try and find it and will send it to you. I believe the system is being built in Canada and has a patent which I should have a copy. It is very complex with lots of safety devices on it because of the pressures. This is not necessary though and will try and put you in touch with someone who is injecting 20 lpm and getting very good mileage, if I remember right, in a 16 L engine. He has the software to reprogram the cpu generating new maps etc. I will see if he will be willing to give you a hand. I have not communicated with him for over a year now but I do know he is still in the trucking business and is still using HHO and saving tons of money every year with a number of trucks. Some factory software allows you to de-tune your engine for lower HP by cutting back fuel. This might work and be what he is using.

Thank you very much! Will wait for your PM.

[koya1893]

As Myold suggested cutting some schedule fuel is the only way to see 20-30% gain an a diesel. I am not sure what my client did, but he is using two cell similar to the one on my F-150 producing 5lpm total. Last he reported 35% increase, similar senario for my 300SD. I am not sure what the big rigs have but, I tweaked the ALDA on the Benz and yield consistent 31mpg city, alittle lower in winter.

[borescopeit]

As Myold suggested cutting some schedule fuel is the only way to see 20-30% gain an a diesel. I am not sure what my client did, but he is using two cell similar to the one on my F-150 producing 5lpm total. Last he reported 35% increase, similar senario for my 300SD. I am not sure what the big rigs have but, I tweaked the ALDA on the Benz and yield consistent 31mpg city, alittle lower in winter.

Cutting fuel schedule can be done by tricking MAP sensor. Right? I just need to find out what is the sweet spot for MAP sensor Vout is to get 20-30% off the fuel ratio that ECM pushes ???

[myoldyourgold]

Victor are you injecting after the MAP? If not it reads the HHO as more air and works against you. You must inject after the MAP. Then adjusting the MAP will give you some gains. But it will not adjust it enough only a narrow range controlled by the CPU. I believe there other sensors that contribute like temperature etc. The MAP just helps to compensate for altitude. To get the really big numbers you have to cut down on the fuel and replace it with HHO up to a certain point and that point is where the HHO is not giving you enough HP. HHO is not got a lot of HP per liter. That is why you can not run just on HHO it requires something else to make enough HP, at least that is in my experience and understanding. You need to check you oil for soot,nitration and fuel dilution. And compare this before and after HHO.

Engines that are not very efficient can see at least 20% gain without doing anything just adding HHO. Not in a clean burning diesel. Old Mercedes are are a great one to get good mileage compared to stock with just a few adjustments but with the fuel cut back and more HHO it really jumps up with the help of Ozone / negative ions etc.

[borescopeit]

Victor are you injecting after the MAP? If not it reads the HHO as more air and works against you. You must inject after the MAP. Then adjusting the MAP will give you some gains. But it will not adjust it enough only a narrow range controlled by the CPU. I believe there other sensors that contribute like temperature etc. The MAP just helps to compensate for altitude. To get the really big numbers you have to cut down on the fuel and replace it with HHO up to a certain point and that point is where the HHO is not giving you enough HP. HHO is not got a lot of HP per liter. That is why you can not run just on HHO it requires something else to make enough HP, at least that is in my experience and understanding. You need to check you oil for soot,nitration and fuel dilution. And compare this before and after HHO.

Engines that are not very efficient can see at least 20% gain without doing anything just adding HHO. Not in a clean burning diesel. Old Mercedes are are a great one to get good mileage compared to stock with just a few adjustments but with the fuel cut back and more HHO it really jumps up with the help of Ozone / negative ions etc.

I am injecting pre-turbo, the MAP sits right on the air intake manifold 10" away from engine block. I think my whole problem is in this freaking MAP sensor. I doubt I have any other sensors besides thew MAP.

I will look into injection of ozone and post-MAP injection. Will play with that.

[BioFarmer93]

I am injecting pre-turbo, the MAP sits right on the air intake manifold 10" away from engine block. I think my whole problem is in this freaking MAP sensor. I doubt I have any other sensors besides thew MAP.

I will look into injection of ozone and post-MAP injection. Will play with that.

Victor,
I hope that I'm not over-simplifying this- But, can you use a piece of tube, a couple hose clamps, some extra wire & a couple polyurethane couplers and re-locate the MAP sensor to a location better suited to your needs so that you may induce the gas post-MAP?

[borescopeit]

Victor,
I hope that I'm not over-simplifying this- But, can you use a piece of tube, a couple hose clamps, some extra wire & a couple polyurethane couplers and re-locate the MAP sensor to a location better suited to your needs so that you may induce the gas post-MAP?

YES!!! I talked to my mechanic regarding MAP sensor relocation pre-HHO-injection and venturi device application under high pressure in the turbo charge system. His answer was YES, it is smart idea and it is posible to make it work. We even tried his venturi device under 125 psi and it sucks in like crazy! So, I am going to do that within next week and will publish results with photos, video, etc.

I hope it will help a lots on the part of quality injection and efficiency of HHO use in large engines.

[myoldyourgold]

I have never found any benefit yet using vacuum to pull in the HHO. It cause more problems than it solves. In your case to inject post turbo and if it does not create any vacuum on your HHO system (bubbler, reactor, filters etc.) maybe it will work. I do not see how you could do that though.

[borescopeit]

I have never found any benefit yet using vacuum to pull in the HHO. It cause more problems than it solves. In your case to inject post turbo and if it does not create any vacuum on your HHO system (bubbler, reactor, filters etc.) maybe it will work. I do not see how you could do that though.

Ok, here we go... Today I did one test on my dry cell: bypassed all pressure creating devices like my inline filter, flashback, etc. The HHO inlet hose is still connected pre-turbo. When I drive with turbo at low pressure (around 5-10 psi) the HHO production goes in its own steady pace, but when I push turbo to do 30-35 psi it creates a lot of vacuum in my HHO inlet hose and the gas is pulled way more faster and in bigger quantities, cause, as I understand, the gas is being sucked out in the quantity rational to the vacuum percentage created by the turbo. This way it on its own regulates HHO amount pulled into the air intake.

And that is not it. Another think, as I understand, the vacuum created in the cell helps the HHO bubbles detach from the electrodes way more quicker thus letting incoming e-lyte fill into those gaps and continue producing more HHO.

So, any pressure created in the cell is working for its bad, not the vacuum: vacuum helps in production (but what is max mm Mercury), overpressure hurts (gaskets are being pushed out, temperature rising, lowering of HHO production).

Do not believe me! Test it!
1. Tighten the output from the hose and see the results.
2. Pull the gas from the cell and see mass gas production in action!

IMHO, the lower the pressure in the cell the better and longer it will serve.

[myoldyourgold]

There is a lot of science behind some of this. You need to study about the bubbles. Pressure creates smaller bubbles and keeps them small until they get out. A vacuum makes the bubbles bigger and the current moves only on the outside of the bubbles creating hot rings, (over amping) dead spots, heat etc. The big bubbles bump into each other and become bigger and block the formation of bubbles in the area and flow of the small bubbles. Bigger bubbles results in less HHO per minute. If you can keep the bubble small under a vacuum and not get any electrolyte laden gas into your engine them maybe. I am still looking for the Canadian company the has the patent on post turbo injection system. I will send it to you when I find it. Bottom line is you want to have many very small bubbles and get them out of the reactor fast with out them becoming big. The distance the bubble travels in the reactor is important. Less distance the better. This is one reason why plate design is important.

[borescopeit]

There is a lot of science behind some of this. You need to study about the bubbles. Pressure creates smaller bubbles and keeps them small until they get out. A vacuum makes the bubbles bigger and the current moves only on the outside of the bubbles creating hot rings, (over amping) dead spots, heat etc. The big bubbles bump into each other and become bigger and block the formation of bubbles in the area and flow of the small bubbles. Bigger bubbles results in less HHO per minute. If you can keep the bubble small under a vacuum and not get any electrolyte laden gas into your engine them maybe. I am still looking for the Canadian company the has the patent on post turbo injection system. I will send it to you when I find it. Bottom line is you want to have many very small bubbles and get them out of the reactor fast with out them becoming big. The distance the bubble travels in the reactor is important. Less distance the better. This is one reason why plate design is important.
Thank you for your insights. I appreciate all that vital info the older man shares with a young folk. ;)

[charliebrumfield]

your venturi style suction may have an issue once the throttle blades closeas you will have acrap ton a air comming in from the turbo with no where to go. at the boost you are running 30+psi, i would imagine that could have some serious effects on your hho unit. imho you'll need a one way check valve on the line that is rated at a higher psi than you blow off valve to be safe.

i could be completely and total wrong though, as i have not done much with turbos. so please keep in mind thats all speculation.

[borescopeit]

your venturi style suction may have an issue once the throttle blades closeas you will have acrap ton a air comming in from the turbo with no where to go. at the boost you are running 30+psi, i would imagine that could have some serious effects on your hho unit. imho you'll need a one way check valve on the line that is rated at a higher psi than you blow off valve to be safe.

i could be completely and total wrong though, as i have not done much with turbos. so please keep in mind thats all speculation.

I have 125 PSIG flash back arrestor installed between my system and the intake, so no reverse pressure is an issue. ;)

[charliebrumfield]

cool. i must have missed that when i was reading through the thread. hoping my reactor looks half as good as yours does when i'm finished.

[borescopeit]

cool. i must have missed that when i was reading through the thread. hoping my reactor looks half as good as yours does when i'm finished.

Outside is deceitful many times, but the important thing is what is inside. I have to improve a lots of things on my reactor though. Put a lots of money into it, produces around 5LPM but that is not enough for my application. So, right now I am working on bringing my Farraday eddiciency factor to 100% or even overunity if the things I am advised to do will work then I will be able to pull 12LPM at 120 AMP. ;)

[Bazarommcmullen]

All liquids boil at a lower temperature when in a vacuum. Pull a vacuum on water and you can make it boil at a very low temperature. they are called pressure empathy charts and this is the very reason you pull HVAC systms into a vacuum before charging. Pulling hte system into a vacuum causes the moisture to boil off thus clensing the HVAC system.
That is why you are seeing increased production and increased bubbling when your system is under a vacuum. It is boiling the electolite. This is just my opinion. The added heat of the cell plus the fact that the cell is under a vacuum is causing the electrolite to flash or boil. THis is basicly the same effect of cavitation in a pump.
What this does to HHO production and dry cells I have no idea. The other thing I do not know is how the KOH changes the properties of the water. Similiar as antifreeze can raise the boiling point of water.

[myoldyourgold]

It would be a real advantage to be able to see exactly what is happening inside the reactor. Since we are not able to do that we have to use what we see on each plate when we take a unit apart. You can learn a lot once you have learned what each variation of color and marking on the plates mean.

I have seen no reports or evidence that a vacuum has any advantage but just the opposite. Pressure on the other hand has proven to keep the bubbles small thus allowing for more bubbles, less hot spots, no large bubbles blocking the flow, and a few other things. The problem with pressure over 3 to 4 pounds requires a lot more safety devises but does work. To avoid all of this the simple and easy solution is to media blast the plates. This keeps the bubble small and so no extra pressure is necessary. You only have to work out the proper flow/pressure to assist the bubbles on their journey. Here is where plate design is important. Insulate all your ports with Weld-on 16.

With out the use of an expensive pump (which has some disadvantages) there is a few things you can do. The most critical to me is the size of the input/balance port on the plate. All I can tell you is that to big does not work. Pressure increases when the ports are smaller. It is like putting your finger over the end of a garden hose to shoot the water farther. The balance between the exit port and the in put port is extremely important. I can only tell you to experiment by using Weldon 16 to close down the input port(s) until you find the sweet spot. I know it's a lot of work but because position and size of the both ports are all over the place it is hard to give you a rule to follow.

To summarize stay away from vacuum, media blast you plates, size your input ports smaller than the exit ports, experiment to find the sweet spot as far as input port size goes buy using Weldon 16 to make it smaller. When you have it right you will have more HHO per amp and no more heat or possibly a little less.

[Darrell]

It would be a real advantage to be able to see exactly what is happening inside the reactor. Since we are not able to do that we have to use what we see on each plate when we take a unit apart. You can learn a lot once you have learned what each variation of color and marking on the plates mean.

I have seen no reports or evidence that a vacuum has any advantage but just the opposite. Pressure on the other hand has proven to keep the bubbles small thus allowing for more bubbles, less hot spots, no large bubbles blocking the flow, and a few other things. The problem with pressure over 3 to 4 pounds requires a lot more safety devises but does work. To avoid all of this the simple and easy solution is to media blast the plates. This keeps the bubble small and so no extra pressure is necessary. You only have to work out the proper flow/pressure to assist the bubbles on their journey. Here is where plate design is important. Insulate all your ports with Weld-on 16.

With out the use of an expensive pump (which has some disadvantages) there is a few things you can do. The most critical to me is the size of the input/balance port on the plate. All I can tell you is that to big does not work. Pressure increases when the ports are smaller. It is like putting your finger over the end of a garden hose to shoot the water farther. The balance between the exit port and the in put port is extremely important. I can only tell you to experiment by using Weldon 16 to close down the input port(s) until you find the sweet spot. I know it's a lot of work but because position and size of the both ports are all over the place it is hard to give you a rule to follow.

To summarize stay away from vacuum, media blast you plates, size your input ports smaller than the exit ports, experiment to find the sweet spot as far as input port size goes buy using Weldon 16 to make it smaller. When you have it right you will have more HHO per amp and no more heat or possibly a little less.

Glad to see you here Carter, got anything new in the hopper? "D"

[myoldyourgold]

Glad to see you here Carter, got anything new in the hopper? "D"
Reply With Quote

Yes sir I do. Variations of the old to improve things a bit more. Some work on location of the negative ion/ozone generator. I hadn't played with the location of injection and always just put in the easiest spot. Have not gotten the results yet as to if it is doing better or worse in a different location. Not enough time on it yet. I'll keep you posted. Good to see you here too.