.5 liters per minute and no draw????

[BIGGUN]

I built a modified teracell and have very little output from it.

It is made of 8 pieces of 10? gauge ss sandwiched between plastic to create 7 cells (just over 2 volts per cell when charging). There are rubber gaskets to seal it and give the plates a 6mm gap. The plates have an exposed surface area of 11" x 5". There are 3/8 inch holes drilled through each plate to let the HHO escape each cell and a thin slot cut into the top and then bottom of alternating cells to cause the electrolyte to flow through each cell do to the venturi effect of the HHO rising up the output tube.

My problem is, that no matter how much lye I put in, my amps, output, and temp never seem to go up. I started with 3 tsp in a gallon of distilled water with no noticable output. I went to 6, then 12. At 12 I got some HHO I've raised the mix to 40 tsp per gallon and haven't had ANY noticable gains. I am currently producing .5 liters per minute.

I am using crystal drain cleaner labled to be 100% sodium hydroxide.

Any thoughts on what I'm doing wrong would be great.

Thanks in advance,
Kevin

[Painless]

You might want to try narrowing the gap between the plates, 6mm's seems like quite a lot. I use a gap somewhere in the region of 1mm.

[BIGGUN]

I originally had a gap of about 2.5 mm with a different gasket material but had low output and thought that the bubbles could have been gathering on the surface and getting trapped between the plates. :( My output with that setup was also .5 liters per minute but I was using Pequa heavy duty drain cleaner which is 65% KOH. In my last try with it I had it diluted 3 parts water to one part drain cleaner. Same problems as now. I can't get any of them to pop a 15 amp fuse.

I'll try to find thinner gasket material and go with that.

Any other thoughts???? Are my plates TOO big?

Kevin

[c02cutter]

How are you driving the voltage to the cell?

[BIGGUN]

Until I get it running better I'm just using battery power with the vehicle running to get it to 14.4v . I have an inline fuse (15 amp) in place in case it starts to draw too much.

I figured on running it this way for testing then switching to a pulse supply later.

Kevin

[bigapple]

I originally had a gap of about 2.5 mm with a different gasket material but had low output and thought that the bubbles could have been gathering on the surface and getting trapped between the plates. :( My output with that setup was also .5 liters per minute but I was using Pequa heavy duty drain cleaner which is 65% KOH. In my last try with it I had it diluted 3 parts water to one part drain cleaner. Same problems as now. I can't get any of them to pop a 15 amp fuse.

I'll try to find thinner gasket material and go with that.

Any other thoughts???? Are my plates TOO big?

Kevin

i understand the issue with bubbles getting caught on ur plates but if u have the gap small, those wont even matter cuz all the other bubbles popping up will immediately cause them to rise... make sure ur connections between ur screws and ur plates r pretty solid... i separate my plates with rubber grommets, nylon washers, and steel washers... i put steel washers on either side of each plate that needs the polarity of the screw... after tightening the bolts to the box, i use something to tap the plates to make sure theres a solid connection going thru... check ur gaps and ur connections to make sure everything is flowing smoothly

[dhho]

Biggun I can understand your frustration.I had a simillar problem with 7 series cell even went to 25% noah by weight and no current draw or production,I have 3.2 mm space with plates in individual cells much like a battery. The only way so far I have found to get things happening a bit better was to short out 1 cell leaving 6 active cells.I now draw about 5.6 amps and produce about .8 lpm with which I am happy with.
Hope this helps regards,
Mos

[BIGGUN]

I was wondering about the 7th cell. I thought any over 1.8??? volts was wasted and generating heat. That's why I went with 7 cells. I'm trying to get thinner material for my gaskets and then I will try to go with 6 cells if that doesn't work.

Thanks for the input guys.

I guess that noone thinks that my plates are too big??

Thank again,
Kevin

[timetowinarace]

The problem is voltage. Voltage is the force that pushes current. If there is not suficiant voltage there will not be suficiant current. The larger the plate gap, the more voltage is needed to push the current across it.

Decrease plate gap to no more than an 1/8", no less than 1/16".

Also, I'm wondering if your testing with the unit wired to the auto, with the auto running and reved up to produce top voltage. In other words, are you testing with a 12V or 14V power supply? If your testing at 12V it is not enough for 7 cells.

While it is common for this board to recomend 1.5V per cell as optimum, I disagree. From all the research I've done, this is how I percieve optimum voltage: Electrolysis begins at 1.23V. 1.23V gives the minimum production possible for voltage. Production will increase as volts go up, up to 2V. 2V gives the maximum production possible for voltage. Anything after 2V goes to heat.

Our cells cannot be perfect, so why drop voltage to the point that only perfect cells will operate?

[dhho]

I agree that the voltage needs to be about 2 volts and contrary to popular belief most charging systems I have come across only put out 13.8 volts or less and when you get to 7 cells this dosen't seem to be eneogh for good production.There is a lot of stuff on the internet that says 7 is optimum ,so I built my cell at 7, all fancy acrylic box (got it made specialy) and in real terms so far it only works reasonably on 6.
Regards,
Mos

[BIGGUN]

Well going to 6 cells made a huge difference. I left the spacing alone for now at 6mm. With 6 cells drawing under 15 amps (still cool)I was producing just over a liter a minute. About a half an hour into driving I blew the 15 amp fuse. About 40-45 minutes later I blew a 20 amp fuse. The 25 amp fuse has lasted the rest of the day. I guess that means that I'm drawing 20-25 amps.

I don't know what my production is at this rate but will be testing soon. I haven't noticed a change in milage but I don't have any computer mods done. I am running an 06 hemi 5.7 liter so I'll need a decent amount of HHO.

Thanks,
Kevin

[BIGGUN]

O.K. I just tested the output. The unit has been running for 3 hours and is not heating up any more. I am drawing between 20-25 amps (fuse tested) with 40 tsp of NaOH in 1 gal of distilled water. The temp is steady at 122-125. I am getting exactly 1.5 LPM. Not too bad for my first attempt........although I was really hoping for 2 LPM.

I'm thinking of using the same configuration with thinner gaskets and doubling my plates to +nnnnn-nnnnn+. I would be using the same space with the gaps closed up as suggested and really increasing my generating surface.

What kind of problems do you think I'll run into? Will it be possible to increase my output to 2.5-3 LPM that way or will I run into thermal problems?

Thanks,
Kevin

[shortstack]

thats alot of NaOH, what is configuration are you using? (ie. +nnn-nnn+)?

[BIGGUN]

I think it needed to be that high because of my 6mm gap. My current config is +nnnnn--. The two negs. are because I jumpered my last two plates together to get down to 6 cells as 7 weren't very productive.

Kevin

[shortstack]

if you change your gap to 1/16 your mixture would probable only be like 1 teaspoon per gallon

[jimbo40]

WOW bigguns hope you don't spill any of that liquid sounds like you have about 39x's to much KOH in there.:eek:

[BIGGUN]

:) I wonder if that will stop it from freezing in the winter.

There may always be a positive side to bad design :D

Thanks guys!

Kevin

[dhho]

Biggun,
I think you are far from a bad design,that is a realy good output,but amps might be a bit high.If you double up what you have you should get 2x production but 2x amps as well.
Good luck,
Mos

[BIGGUN]

Will smaller gaps mean more amp draw?

[DaneDHorstead]

if you change your gap to 1/16 your mixture would probable only be like 1 teaspoon per gallon
I agree! I use 1 teaspoon per gallon, and run an approximate 1.1 mm spacing (actually it is 0.045", by my micrometer)

I couldn't believe my eyes, when I read 40 teaspoons, per gallon. But then, you could almost park a semi between his plates.

I get 1.9 LPM at 10 amp draw, across three sets of plates (wired with 3 separate breakers).

My plates however are 17 plates (22 gage 304 wiyh sixteen cell gaps per set), with the 1.1 mm gap

I run a constant 128 F, once the system warms up.

Once I doubled the catalyst on a dare (2 teaspoons per gallon) and the amp draw trippled.

Production also increased dramaticly, but I wasted no time changing it back, to protect the electrical system, and to prevent a meltdown.

[shortstack]

you got some pics of yours? and what is your plate setup (ie +nnnn-nnnn+nnnn- )

[JojoJaro]

I agree! I use 1 teaspoon per gallon, and run an approximate 1.1 mm spacing (actually it is 0.045", by my micrometer)

I couldn't believe my eyes, when I read 40 teaspoons, per gallon. But then, you could almost park a semi between his plates.

I get 1.9 LPM at 10 amp draw, across three sets of plates (wired with 3 separate breakers).

My plates however are 17 plates (22 gage 304 wiyh sixteen cell gaps per set), with the 1.1 mm gap

I run a constant 128 F, once the system warms up.

Once I doubled the catalyst on a dare (2 teaspoons per gallon) and the amp draw trippled.

Production also increased dramaticly, but I wasted no time changing it back, to protect the electrical system, and to prevent a meltdown.

Are you getting 1.9 LPM for a total input of 10 A, or is that 10 X 3 circuits, or 30 A for 1.9 LPM.

If you are getting 1.9 LPM for 10 A alone and your cell does not get above 128F as you say, please share your configuration, plate sizes and other design details. This production would be the highest I've heard of for the least amount of current and least amount of temp.

[1973dodger]

While there are many factors which affect our cells, particularly reguarding our series cell. When you run in a series, it really tells on you as far as the efficiency and set up of our cells. I believe your problem lies with the lower voltage being able to push through the resistance of all those plates. So how do we address that? Perforated works better than solid, smaller gaps work better than larger gaps, thinner gauge works better than thicker, look into more conductive materials which can handle the abuse of electrolosis. One thing I am researching now, is how to maintain the push of the voltage thru all of our cells. If you have noticed with your series cell, some cells seem to be producing better than others. Yes we need our voltage to push our current thru each set of plates without having to increase that voltage. Perhaps some electronics guys can chime in here. I believe the answer lies in inductance to each cell to overcome the resistence. But this is as far as I have gotten.

1973dodger

[BIGGUN]

Dane,

It seems like my output isn't too far from yours. I'm at 1.5 LPM at 25 amps. You are at 1.9 at 30 amps. Because of my spacing my electrolyte needs to be REAL strong (not sure of any disadvantages of this) but I am staying cool (125-130).

When my new gasket material comes in I am going to try to decrease gap and double the plates. Then I'll have to play with the electrolyte to get it back to 25 amps total and see if production has changed.

Kevin

[rzone]

While there are many factors which affect our cells, particularly reguarding our series cell. When you run in a series, it really tells on you as far as the efficiency and set up of our cells. I believe your problem lies with the lower voltage being able to push through the resistance of all those plates. So how do we address that? Perforated works better than solid, smaller gaps work better than larger gaps, thinner gauge works better than thicker, look into more conductive materials which can handle the abuse of electrolosis. One thing I am researching now, is how to maintain the push of the voltage thru all of our cells. If you have noticed with your series cell, some cells seem to be producing better than others. Yes we need our voltage to push our current thru each set of plates without having to increase that voltage. Perhaps some electronics guys can chime in here. I believe the answer lies in inductance to each cell to overcome the resistence. But this is as far as I have gotten.

1973dodger
Distilled water with electrolyte act like a non linear resistor, the current through cell increase in the same amount with the voltage applied, until a point where current start to increase very fast. On my test cell with less than 0.5 volts increase I get 4x amps. The point is ~ 2V for a single cell, but is very hard to control because a a small change in electrolyte concentration shift it. That's why on car a pwm with feedback to keep constant current is a must.

I didn't found any magnetic or electrical resonance, and there are months since I keep trying various setup, probably I'll end with the best configuration that everybody use....:o

[SamB52]

Biggun I can understand your frustration.I had a simillar problem with 7 series cell even went to 25% noah by weight and no current draw or production,I have 3.2 mm space with plates in individual cells much like a battery. The only way so far I have found to get things happening a bit better was to short out 1 cell leaving 6 active cells.I now draw about 5.6 amps and produce about .8 lpm with which I am happy with.
Hope this helps regards,
Mos

Hey dhho,
Can you describe the rest of your cell configuration? 800ml/min at 5.6 A and 13.8v is 10.35 mmw. Very good, man!

[airdude]

Dane,

It seems like my output isn't too far from yours. I'm at 1.5 LPM at 25 amps. You are at 1.9 at 30 amps. Because of my spacing my electrolyte needs to be REAL strong (not sure of any disadvantages of this) but I am staying cool (125-130).

When my new gasket material comes in I am going to try to decrease gap and double the plates. Then I'll have to play with the electrolyte to get it back to 25 amps total and see if production has changed.

Kevin

Just curious as I have an 06 Ram 5.7 L Hemi and can't get better than a 1.5 mpg boost.