Series Cells

[justaguy]

Ok, for two months I have been reading this forum and another one everyday trying to learn what I could before I build my generator. Now that I have my two cell generator almost completed this is what they are saying on the other forum. Two cells hooked in series has to draw double amps to produce more hho.
Everything I have read always said hooking in series lowers the amps and heat while at the same time raising the hho production. Now they are saying hooking in paralle is best. So, will someone please tell me the facts?

[1973dodger]

Ok, for two months I have been reading this forum and another one everyday trying to learn what I could before I build my generator. Now that I have my two cell generator almost completed this is what they are saying on the other forum. Two cells hooked in series has to draw double amps to produce more hho.
Everything I have read always said hooking in series lowers the amps and heat while at the same time raising the hho production. Now they are saying hooking in paralle is best. So, will someone please tell me the facts?

I have tested many versions of cells, in many combinations. I still do not consider myself an expert, but I can tell you what I have personally experienced. If you try a single set of cells with 12 volts, you will make more hho than the same set up, x 2, wired up in a series. Yet your mml per amp will be greater with the series setup. I have charted a 2cell series versus a 3 cell series and so on, up to a 6 cell series. and each time I dropped the voltage, by adding another set of cells in a series, the more efficient my mml/amp became. The problem is each time you add a set of cell/s to your series to drop the voltage, the less production in total oput of hho. The way you have to adjust for this is to add more surface area in each set, whether larger plates or more connected cells in each set or container, or you can concentrate more electrlyte in each container. (up to a point) Hope this is not too confusing. Bottom line is if you are after efficiency, you will need to drop the voltage, then you will need to increase the amperage by adding more electrolyte or/and more surface area. It is all in whether you want 2 l/m @ 30 amps or you want 2 l/m at 15 amps.

Hope this helps.

1973dodger

[stickittoopec]

Ok, for two months I have been reading this forum and another one everyday trying to learn what I could before I build my generator. Now that I have my two cell generator almost completed this is what they are saying on the other forum. Two cells hooked in series has to draw double amps to produce more hho.
Everything I have read always said hooking in series lowers the amps and heat while at the same time raising the hho production. Now they are saying hooking in paralle is best. So, will someone please tell me the facts?
When in series you will keep the same amps and you will drop voltage at each plate if it is truly a series cell (the current has no other path but through the plates). Here is info on a series circuit. http://www.tpub.com/neets/book1/chapter3/1-11.htm
http://www.tpub.com/neets/book1/chapter3/32NE0059.GIF

http://www.stickittoopec.com/video/SeriesCellDemo.wmv
I opened up a cell that I fabricated wrong, it was meant for a small car or motorcycle. Spacing was the issue (long story) so now it is a demo for how a true series cell works. Notice the only connections are the two outside plates. A lot of people here call the unconnected plates “neutral plates” but they are not neutral. Electrically they are connected through the electrolyte and are in series. It is a 7 cell so you will see each plate drop about 1.9 volts in the video.

[liberybell]

I have tested many versions of cells, in many combinations. I still do not consider myself an expert, but I can tell you what I have personally experienced. If you try a single set of cells with 12 volts, you will make more hho than the same set up, x 2, wired up in a series. Yet your mml per amp will be greater with the series setup. I have charted a 2cell series versus a 3 cell series and so on, up to a 6 cell series. and each time I dropped the voltage, by adding another set of cells in a series, the more efficient my mml/amp became. The problem is each time you add a set of cell/s to your series to drop the voltage, the less production in total oput of hho. The way you have to adjust for this is to add more surface area in each set, whether larger plates or more connected cells in each set or container, or you can concentrate more electrlyte in each container. (up to a point) Hope this is not too confusing. Bottom line is if you are after efficiency, you will need to drop the voltage, then you will need to increase the amperage by adding more electrolyte or/and more surface area. It is all in whether you want 2 l/m @ 30 amps or you want 2 l/m at 15 amps.

Hope this helps.

1973dodger

Great explanation.
One advantage between 2l/m at 30 amps vs 15 amps is less heat, right?
I have been ready that connecting the sets in series allows for the splitting of voltage. In other words if we are using 13 v and we have 3 set in series that means that each set is using 4.3v each. right?

So if we go with a series of sets:
What setup of plate and what dimension would you recommend for a system at 20 to 30 amps in order to produce 2l/m?
I am planning to line up 3 set in series of 7 plates (-nn+nn-) Plates are 1/16" thick and 4"x4" in surface. Would this setting produce that much?

Also, how important is the space between plates and what part plays in the hho production and heat production?

Great thread!

[1973dodger]

Great explanation.
One advantage between 2l/m at 30 amps vs 15 amps is less heat, right?
I have been ready that connecting the sets in series allows for the splitting of voltage. In other words if we are using 13 v and we have 3 set in series that means that each set is using 4.3v each. right?

So if we go with a series of sets:
What setup of plate and what dimension would you recommend for a system at 20 to 30 amps in order to produce 2l/m?
I am planning to line up 3 set in series of 7 plates (-nn+nn-) Plates are 1/16" thick and 4"x4" in surface. Would this setting produce that much?

Also, how important is the space between plates and what part plays in the hho production and heat production?

Great thread!


Liberty,

Firstly, Yes dropping the voltage is a way to control heat, but you will need to get down between 2-3 volts to help much over the long haul. But also it is a way to put less of a strain on your altenator, which in turn puts less of a drag on your motor, thus is not counter-productive in your quest for better mpg.

Secondly, i am not a big fan of neutral plates, too much of a hassel in sealing the edges effectively enough to convince the current to go through the unconnected plates instead of around. Yes it can be done, and yes you can step down voltage this way per plate, but in my opnion, let the pos charge react with the neg charge without putting something in the way to dillute the reaction per volt. This is why you set up a series cell to begin with, to step down the voltage in seperate chambers or containers, to keep the current confined to each cell. You will get better production from each plate without the neutrals, by stepping down the voltage in a series. If you try to step down the voltage with a set of plates which has neutrals in the cell, you are actually stepping down the voltage twice, if you are also trying to set up 2 or more in a series. Furthermore, it is my belief that the edges are the source of our greatest output, so why would you want to cover those up, as a matter of fact, the more edges the better. Which is another reason to not use neutral plates so you don't have to worry about sealing those edges.

Thirdly, you will have to do your homework as far as electrolyte concentration or surface area needed in order to achieve the desired lpm. Sorry, too many variables. Just do what i have done and chart your configuration to calculate what would be needed.

Fourthly, yes spacing is crucial. I prefer as close of a spacing as possible, without touching. Because once you step down the voltage into 6 or 7 seperated cells in a series, you will be begging for amps to go up, unless you provide more surface area or electrolyte. I prefer to use as little of electrolyte as possible, just enough to achieve the desired reaction between the plates

[timetowinarace]

I have tested many versions of cells, in many combinations. I still do not consider myself an expert, but I can tell you what I have personally experienced. If you try a single set of cells with 12 volts, you will make more hho than the same set up, x 2, wired up in a series. Yet your mml per amp will be greater with the series setup. I have charted a 2cell series versus a 3 cell series and so on, up to a 6 cell series. and each time I dropped the voltage, by adding another set of cells in a series, the more efficient my mml/amp became. The problem is each time you add a set of cell/s to your series to drop the voltage, the less production in total oput of hho. The way you have to adjust for this is to add more surface area in each set, whether larger plates or more connected cells in each set or container, or you can concentrate more electrlyte in each container. (up to a point) Hope this is not too confusing. Bottom line is if you are after efficiency, you will need to drop the voltage, then you will need to increase the amperage by adding more electrolyte or/and more surface area. It is all in whether you want 2 l/m @ 30 amps or you want 2 l/m at 15 amps.

Hope this helps.

1973dodger

Your assement is mostly correct but needs some clarification.

I posted this on another thread:

If you take 7 identical cells and wire them in series in a 14V system, each will drop 2V across them. So there you have the ideal target of 2V. There is a reason I consider 2V as ideal. For ideal effeciancy you would want a 27% KOH solution in each cell. This could draw more amps than the electrical system can handle though. So you can go up to 27%. Just keep the solution excactly the same for all cells. Have a target for amp draw, let's call it 30A. Adjust elecrolyte solution accordingly, you have to do this for all seven cells at the same time. You can't just adjust each one for 30A then wire them together or your amp draw will be low. Now you have seven cells, all at 2V and 30A. The big advantage to this is: if you measure output of one cell at 2V and 30A and get, let's say 1LPM for easy math, seven cells in series at 2V and 30A would be 1 X 7 = 7LPM. Even if you got half that output, 3.5LPM for a booster is a nice number. Especially considering most are not getting up to 1LPM in their attemps. Note: you cannot use N or unconnected plates in a system like this. They are ineffeciant anyway and I don't like them. I prefer this over the proposed system of this thread because I like KISS(keep it simple stupid). However, to use more than seven cells, or higher hho output, more electronics are necissary.

In very simple terms, as you add cells you add resistance thus you lower the current draw. You are correct to reduce resistance by increasing catylist percentage. You shouldn't need to chart results like that. Basic math will give the answers as long as the cells are identical(very important).

[1973dodger]

Your assement is mostly correct but needs some clarification.

I posted this on another thread:

If you take 7 identical cells and wire them in series in a 14V system, each will drop 2V across them. So there you have the ideal target of 2V. There is a reason I consider 2V as ideal. For ideal effeciancy you would want a 27% KOH solution in each cell. This could draw more amps than the electrical system can handle though. So you can go up to 27%. Just keep the solution excactly the same for all cells. Have a target for amp draw, let's call it 30A. Adjust elecrolyte solution accordingly, you have to do this for all seven cells at the same time. You can't just adjust each one for 30A then wire them together or your amp draw will be low. Now you have seven cells, all at 2V and 30A. The big advantage to this is: if you measure output of one cell at 2V and 30A and get, let's say 1LPM for easy math, seven cells in series at 2V and 30A would be 1 X 7 = 7LPM. Even if you got half that output, 3.5LPM for a booster is a nice number. Especially considering most are not getting up to 1LPM in their attemps. Note: you cannot use N or unconnected plates in a system like this. They are ineffeciant anyway and I don't like them. I prefer this over the proposed system of this thread because I like KISS(keep it simple stupid). However, to use more than seven cells, or higher hho output, more electronics are necissary.

In very simple terms, as you add cells you add resistance thus you lower the current draw. You are correct to reduce resistance by increasing catylist percentage. You shouldn't need to chart results like that. Basic math will give the answers as long as the cells are identical(very important).

I agree with you and perhaps you said it in way which is more explanitory. But I do have to say, one must have a base in which to know what each cells potential is in a series. Certainly all cell configurations have many variables such as spacing, surface area, electrolyte concentration, conductiveness of certain types of electrodes, and so on. simply stated each experimentor will have to determine a base number in which to calculate with in order to determine what is needed to acheive desired output.

1973dodger

[justaguy]

Thanks guys, ok here is what I have. I have two cells with 4 plates +-+- 1/16 spacing, both are in the same container . Each cell has a pos and neg post through the side of the water filter container. With this, I have the option of hooking the two up in series or separate. I had always thought two cells in series would be less amps and heat and more hho.

Are you saying if the two are connected together in series and I add more koh to get the amps back up to say 20 i,ll have more hho than if I had a single cell of 8 plates? I guess it will be pretty easy for me to find out when I get it finished.

[timetowinarace]

The way you have configured the cell it will be easy to switch the wires on the outside so you can see for yourself the difference when wired in series or parallel. I say play with it.

Two cells in series will be less volts across each cell. Amps are adjustable with solution consentration. Try parallel first and adjust to your desired amp draw. I think you'll find you'll have heat issues. Then try series. You should have to increase your catalist to get the same amps. There should be less heat. Measure hho output for each.