New to HHO, concept summarization

[ZildCrab]

Hello all,
i've been reading a lot about hho now and I think it's time for me to interact.
First, introduction. I'm Mauro, from Argentina and I'm 29 years old. Have no college degree or education but I'm very confident that sometimes a mind crowded with knowledge looses the capacity of concentration.
So this post is intented to summarize a little bit all the concepts behind the build up of an "entry level" hho gen.

To start I want to say that in my opinion, the are two MAJOR things that need to be considered before starting a project related to HHO and I would like to start this debate by making some statements based on the most credible information I could collect.

1- EFFICIENCY
From what I read, the goal here is to generate more LPM with less AMP being drawed from the power source.
For this to be possible I would need to:

- Use a Dry Cell
- Keep in mind that the cell should always be cooled or have some cooling system added to my generator (like a water radiator).
- Use only 28% electrolite solution in my water reservoir.
- Have only 2volt per cell system, adding more or less "neutral plates" given the input voltage.
- Dry cell shape must be hexagonal, round or "house shaped" to help the gas flow to the top exit hole.
- Keep the water reservoir up and the cell down so there's a decent water flow into the circuit, also helping with the cooling process.


2- STORAGE
I believe this is the KEY step that MUST be considered for anyone that has the idea of powering something with this gas.
So here are my questions regarding this:

- Everyone speaks of 10PSI, 15PSI.. some dare to go to 60 PSI. A regular car propane system works at 200PSI at the very least. Would it be possible to go that far with HHO?
- In the events of building up pressure, is it safe to say that if I want to store HHO at 200psi or whatever I would have to build water reservoir, cell, cooler and everything that can sustain 200psi? or is there another way of doing this whithout the need of a complex pressure safe system like using an air compressor and hooking the compressor input to the generators output?

Lastly I would like to ask two simple questions regarding my first cell build.

What happens if I use the water reservoir as bubbler? would the small pressure build up on the bubbler (let's say I use it for a torch, no storage system) have any effects on the cell?
Aaaaaaaand.. When powering a combustion engine, it has been told that I would need to produce per minute half the engine's cc. But is this to run the engine 100% on hho or just as a add-on to the gasoline?

I really hope we can keep this ontopic so most of this questions are answered not only for me, but for every amateur out there.

Cheers and good day!

[Stevo]

- Keep in mind that the cell should always be cooled or have some cooling system added to my generator (like a water radiator).
- Use only 28% electrolite solution in my water reservoir.



- 130 degrees F is a pretty well-known average running temperature. If a reactor is running above those temps it is because of design, construction or preparation flaws (not to mention e-lyte used and it's composition).

- This is debatable as some report "higher system efficiency" and "lower operating temps" while others simply notice how much more corrosive and dangerous the e-lyte becomes at concentrations greater than 10% by weight. Higher concentrations also require a decent PWM. I have noticed that higher concentrations simply mean more material corrosion, very messy spills and drips, frequent bubbler flushing and an overall greater chance at getting un-scrubbed KOH in the intake tract. :o Luckily, I have learned this from others instead of finding out on one of my own vehicles.



- Dry cell shape must be hexagonal, round or "house shaped" to help the gas flow to the top exit hole.


- This is also debatable, but the theory is mostly sound. 3-4 years ago these "hexgonal" or "house shaped" designs started popping up left and right. I might be wrong, but it seems that the design trend may have started over at the now deceased hhounderground.com (R.I.P.).




When powering a combustion engine, it has been told that I would need to produce per minute half the engine's cc. But is this to run the engine 100% on hho or just as a add-on to the gasoline?


If I am reading this correctly, then you have been mislead in a couple of ways:

- Nobody is "powering" combustion engines with this "HHO" gas. These units always return a net energy loss by themselves (at least the ones that exist and that are demo-able -> LOL). A reasonable word to use would be "augment" (mentioned by a member with strong opinions/will). Some experimenters produce hydrogen and oxygen from water in order to introduce the gasses into the combustion chamber hoping that left over combustion chamber gasses will properly mix by the end of the upcoming compression stroke thus "augmenting" the potential of the compressed fuel-air mixture. Without the proper mixture, ratios, left over combustion gasses (to name a few basics), you will be playing a game of pure chance and probably will not even experience any gains.

- You don't want to / can't produce half the engine's cc onboard. Many people start at 1/4 to 1/2 liter of gas per total displacement in liters. 2.0 liter = 500mL to 1000mL of gas per minute. A considerable number of individuals have determined: "less is more" when it comes down to tweaking system output.


Hopefully, this info will help you out. :)

[ZildCrab]

Thanks Stevo, that's very helpfull.
And yes, "augment" seems like a more suitable word. English is not my native language and sometimes I just can't avoid the direct translation of some of our terms to english which may result on unaccurate concepts.

But let me see if I got it right. You're saying that it is not possible to experience any gains when using HHO on a car?
As far as I know it is possible with the correct setup, but the more you know about HHO the more shady it becomes.

I guess it's safe to say that with HHO it all comes down to the individual experience and "what you can do with what you know and have".
I mean, I'm pretty sure there's someone out there driving a car with 100% HHO or a generator. Thinking that gives me hopes and will to start with my project, and that's what matters.

But lets not get carried away. What about storage? any ideas on that.. risks?

[myoldyourgold]

But let me see if I got it right. You're saying that it is not possible to experience any gains when using HHO on a car?
As far as I know it is possible with the correct setup, but the more you know about HHO the more shady it becomes.


I think what Stevo is saying is that on just HHO alone made on board using the energy from HHO to make enough to run a car has not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. No existing running vehicle is available either. This in no way means it is impossible but no existing proof or sample.

The only shady part of HHO is the scum bags that are selling poor suckers HHO kits that will not give any gain in most cases but claim 50% or even more. That does not mean it is not possible but not with there setup it isn't. There is so much junk out there that it is mind boggling.

HHO can be stored for short periods in small amounts under limited pressure depending on the HHO. There are many commercial welding systems out there that run between 20 and 25 lbs pressure and store small amounts. These systems do not run hour after hour or they would fry themselves or will require a cooling system much like a vehicle with radiator and water jackets, pump etc. to keep them cool. Some of them have that. Not a practical solution for a Honda or Toyota. The system is bigger than the existing engine. LOL The risks of pressurized systems are large and requires a lot of safety devices making it very expensive but doable. Way to dangerous and expensive for all wanting to build there own system. It takes a lot more than what is posted on this forum or any other for that matter. The reason for this is that no one wants some one to have just one accident and blow themselves up or anyone else resulting in banning all HHO. Pressurized systems are just not practical for anything but a real commercial system backed by good insurance. You would be very hard pressed to get insurance for one in the US or Europe or even some Asian countries would ban them in vehicles too. Welding is a different mater.

[ZildCrab]

Makes sense, I was just curious about that since here is very common to see cars with propane equipment.
The technology is already in place: regulators, electric valves, high pressure tubes and hoses, digital meter, switches, etc... all you'll have to do is replace the gas inside the tube with compresse HHO. But yeah, I agree with the safety part.