improving flux and suggest

[mauroalpha]

Hi guys,
I'm italian and I'm trying to build my hho heater;I've a 25 plates dry cell that was sold to me has 3,2 lpm at 25amp 12v.
So, I'm using 14mm hose with Rilsan connection and a mini water filter as water tank but I'm having problem with the flow cause it's not continuos in the water tank and the bubble of hho go through the hose that is used to feed the cell.
What is the problem? maybe I need to use another tank and put on the side the rilsan instead of low side?

please show the video :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nacucTJ5XU&feature=youtu.be

I need suggest thanks :)

[hhoconnection]

It's hard to tell from your video but it looks like the hose in the back of the cell is coming out the top of the cell just like the one on the front. If that is indeed the case then the fitting feeding the cell should be at the bottom of the cell with the return fitting (or fittings if both sides) should be on the top. You also need a much bigger reservoir for a cell that size.

[myoldyourgold]

A quick fix is to raise the height of the reservoir until it stops. A larger reservoir will help and as hhoconnection suggested the input should be lower than the gas output. You need more height and more water for gravity to prevent this.

[mauroalpha]

Hy guys, yes water should come from the bottom of the tank and then it turn up;

so it's very important the tank size and the pressure of the water inside?I was thinking that the only important thing is that the cell was filled in with water.

What can I use has tank? maybe a normal (2ltr) water filter? If I use some plastic recipient there no way for me to insert and get secure the fitting to the pipe due to the low thickness of the plastic..yeah I can use a gasket to seal it from the inside of the recipe but I can't get with my hand inside the recipe to secure it..help please :)

thanks
ps: Mike your videos are great! I need to improve my english eheh :D

[myoldyourgold]

Pressure must be equal in the reactor/each cell, reservoir and the bubbler or slightly more on the input side of the reactor. The height of the reservoir determines the level of the electrolyte in each cell/pressure from the input side. The pressure pushing down on the electrolyte in the cell is created by HHO trying to escape, bubbling through the reservoir, through the bubbler, friction in the tubes/fittings, and hunting for the exit port in each cell. The reservoir's gravity force on the electrolyte and head pressure should match the pressure in each cell or be slightly more to prevent bubbles finding there way out of the input port and to maintain the proper level of electrolyte in each cell. In the ideal situation, the pressure is equal and the level of the electrolyte is maintained just below the exit port. The amount of electrolyte escaping out with the HHO is very little but still some. In reactors that are being over driven heat up in this position and have to run in a flooded condition to help cool things. Not the ideal most efficient way though but is commonly used by many. This just creates more current leakage than is necessary. At start up is the only time each cell should be flooded, and this is where the input side needs to have enough pressure to allow the electrolyte to pumped out the exit ports and to get each cell to the balance point.

[mauroalpha]

myoldyourgold: thanks for your suggest, this morning I've disassembled my cell and I've put the inlet under the outlet and this evening I will post the result;
I've also used another water tank, a 2L water filter..I'm trying to search some retailer that sell pvc pipe or plexyglass pipe whit twist-off cap but I'm city no way, and google seems to not help meto find also in italy..

anyway,seek u later ;)

[myoldyourgold]

Here is a product that might not be available for you but works well.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g215/yenom_1945/Plug.jpg

[mauroalpha]

uhm, what is its name in english ? gripper ?
i will search here :)

So, yesterday I've tried my re assembled cell and it's gone. I have 5 cm flame with 20 amp , cell configuration is +NNN- (I've tried also +NN- and it adsorb 25 amps) but I've found that my thread in the curve of the recipe is losing some water and so its pressure..

myoldyourgold, what's about fluximeter? I've found it for 20 bucks on ebay one that is made for Argo gas, can I use this or its nonsense?

[myoldyourgold]

The picture posted is a test plug. Here is a link and explanation

Click here (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Oatey-1-1-2-in-Plastic-Mechanical-Test-Plug-33400/100342630#.UZdNespCLnQ)

[mauroalpha]

thanks mate for the tip :)

So,
this night I ran my pwm at maximum (the pwm knob is not at its maximum but less than half, is correct?) and I haven't seen the previous production observed at that amp (30 amp)...i've decided to measure the voltage adsorbed by the cell and it was 7,22 volts.

really strange. I'm using ogo pwm30, the chinese one.

I've disconnected the pwm and then connected the psu direct into the cell and the gas flow was amazing!!!
actually the volts are 9,2x (my config is +NNN-)

do you think that the ogo pwm (100hz i think) is not good or maybe it's good but the hz are not suitable for my cell?

[myoldyourgold]

The problem might be with your PSU. It could also be the PWM. I really have not idea with out knowing the details of the PSU. You need to hook up an amp meter so you can see how many amps are really being drawn.

[D.O.G]

thanks mate for the tip :)

So,
this night I ran my pwm at maximum (the pwm knob is not at its maximum but less than half, is correct?) and I haven't seen the previous production observed at that amp (30 amp)...i've decided to measure the voltage adsorbed by the cell and it was 7,22 volts.

really strange. I'm using ogo pwm30, the chinese one.

I've disconnected the pwm and then connected the psu direct into the cell and the gas flow was amazing!!!
actually the volts are 9,2x (my config is +NNN-)

do you think that the ogo pwm (100hz i think) is not good or maybe it's good but the hz are not suitable for my cell?

I'll try to help, but diagnosing problems without seeing the whole circuit is difficult.

What voltage and current (or wattage) is your power supply rated at?

The wiring that I see in your video looks too small to handle 30A without some voltage drop. :(

If you are only reading 9.2v at the cell (without the PWM), your power supply could be too small to maintain full voltage at high current, or your wiring could be too small, or both.

Check the voltage at the cell and at the power supply.
If they are the same (but both lower than the rated supply voltage), the power supply could be too small for the load it's feeding.
If they are 1v (or more) different, there is too much voltage drop in your wiring or connections.
If they are different and both lower than the rated voltage, you have both issues.


In regards to the reading of 7.22v with the PWM connected, I think that the PWM wasn't running at maximum, or it's maximum isn't 100% duty cycle.
Worry about the supply and wiring first.

Pete.:)

[mauroalpha]

Ciao Pete,

the cable that I use are 4mm wires ; after 10 minutes of uses without pwm my psu got warm and then burnt out :( this is my 4 psu that get burnt without pwm..I don't understand why!!!

I've now ordered a 50 amp psu but I will use still pwm 30 cause I need to buy a new pwm cause I want to use not more than 40 amp so I will be sure that i will not burn again the psu..any suggest regards why i burnt my psu?

I think that I've put so much caustic soda and so the cell adsorb more amps than psu , is right?

[myoldyourgold]

4 mm is 11 to 12 gauge wire. You need something more like 6 mm. This is not why the PSU burned out though. The reason it burned out is that the reactor was drawing more amps than it could handle. I use a 100 amp PSU and keep it under 70 amps max. There are Chinese built 100 amp PSU's that have variable 0-16 volts and variable amps form 1-100. Not cheap but are available. I will see if I can find a link for one similar to the one I am using.

[D.O.G]

Myoldyourgold is right, the wiring is a bit too small, but that's not why you've cooked four :eek: power supplies.

You already know one reason - "I think that I've put so much caustic soda and so the cell adsorb more amps than psu , is right?"

Another factor is that you have your reactor wired +NNN-.
This is going to draw more and more current as the electrolyte heats up and could still be an issue even with a new, bigger, power supply.

Your PWM would help to control the excess current, but, if you can, try rewiring the reactor to run with five neutrals (+NNNNN-).
You should get better gas production with a more stable running temperature.


In regard to the wiring size, if you have more of that wire, just try running two wires for (+) and two for (-) and keep the wire length as short as practical

[mauroalpha]

myoldyourgold (what's your real name?):

at the moment I've ordered the new psu 12v 50amp, and a new PWM made by the dealer
(it's an electronic engineer that is working on water engine for boat)

where I have bought the cell; he has recommend me to use it in a +NNN- configuration and the temperature at 40amp will remain under 30°C
the pwm is patented with no fan and with new mosfet inside :) (the pwm works on 50 rms amp and the peak is 70amp)

So, before talking the configuration i want to ask an help:

The right size of the wire for that amperage are 8mm wire but I have one problem using them cause the fast-on connection are smaller than the wire so I can't use them; can I see how you've connected your cell to the wires?

D.O.G:
(can I see your connection too? :D )

about the configuration, another user told me that the best way is to use 5N.
I've tried it and the productions was a lot lower than before.
I think this is because my cell has 4mm o-ring and also because I've measured that ,the cell, between + and - adsorb 9,20 v

so, in a 3N configuration all is working good because 9,20/5plates = 1,84v/plates . I think the Volts are correct, right?

is normal that I have 9,2 instead of 12v between plates?

thanks :cool:

[mauroalpha]

i made a mistake, 5 plates = 6 gap so the volts are less

this night i will use my new pwm so i will get u back with results

[D.O.G]

i made a mistake, 5 plates = 6 gap so the volts are less

this night i will use my new pwm so i will get u back with results

No, 5 plates = 4 gaps so the volts are higher than you thought.

[mauroalpha]

No, 5 plates = 4 gaps so the volts are higher than you thought.

No, I told 6 gap cause for 5 plates I mean 5neutral :)

[mauroalpha]

Ok I mounted all with new pwm.
same as last time, if 12 volt is set, i obtain that the cell adsorb 25 amp but 7,22 volt. If I keep controlled the voltage and i push up the pwm, the voltage goes to 8,3 but the amp goes to 20..basically:
7,22 v = 25 amp
8,3v = 20 amp

if i go up with the pwm the voltage drop and also the amperage.
Do I have to use the pwm regulated on voltage?

on 8,3v the psu starts to get hot and the fan is continuosly spinning

IMPORTANT: my amp clamps si AC amp..do I have to use DC amp meter?

[D.O.G]

IMPORTANT: my amp clamps si AC amp..do I have to use DC amp meter?

Yes.
That may explain why some of your current measurements seem odd.

In regards to the voltage measurement at the reactor, any measurement after the PWM will be the average voltage and can't be used to calculate gap voltage. You should always use the power supply voltage divided by the number of gaps in one stack.


It sounds like you are still putting too much load on the power supply.
Could you please dilute your electrolyte solution by pouring out half of it and topping off with distilled water. You can increase the concentration again later, when you can measure DC amps accurately, if necessary.

[mauroalpha]

thanks, i've ordered the dc lcd from china..i think i will receive in 3 weeks and then get u back :)

[JasonLucas]

It's difficult to tell from your clip but it looks like the hose in the returning of the mobile is arriving out the top of the auto-mobile just like the one on the top side. If that is indeed the situation then the suitable providing the mobile should be at the end of the mobile with returning suitable (or accessories if both sides) should be on the top. You also need a much larger tank for a mobile that can provide you with better dimensions.

[mauroalpha]

Ciao Jason, I've solved the flux problem changing the stack configurations of the cell.

So about the stack, I've discovered that if I use 3 Neutral, my psu doesn't work at 12v but at 10.xx and this is the reason why i burned out my psu.

my psu were burned out not for the amp adsorbed but only for that reason.

I think that 3N or 2N or + - is the perfect configuration if you're using a battery or with a car but with power supply the perfect configuration is the one that you have when you see that the cell adsorb 12v.


After another psu burned yesterday i've reassembled the cell with 4N. Production get stable at 15 amp after 30/40 min of work cause the T° goes high to 70° and it stay stable :)

now i need a new psu :\

ps: 50grams of NaOH for 1 liter of water is enough?

[mauroalpha]

I'm back with some new info after testing for a while.

1) Using pump will help to produce more hho gas

2) For have more gas with less amp my solution is to have the right mix of
distilled water + 1 tea spoon of Na OH and 2 or 3 glass of NH3 (ammoniaca)

i'm still checking the right mix but with NH3 my production is the same at 20 amp when before i was pulling out 32 amp....very cool