Please help with my dry cell

[shaunak]

i m a mechanical engineer ..i have designed a fuel cell as part of my engineering project...
but problem is its not working.
its a dry cell.
details
its a 7 cell
i used 8 stainless steel 304 grade plates of dimension 200mm*160mm and 0.8mm thickness
9 pvc spacers of 200mm*160mm and 3mm thickness and made a hexagonal large hole at centre of each spacer.
240mm*200mm acrylic backplates 10mm thick.
stacked and tightened it using bolts and nuts ...insulation tube is provided around each bolt to avoid contact with plates...
used 25% NaOH and passed power using 12v car battery..it dint work..then used KOH 28% that too dint work...but when i plced only 2 ss 304 plates in a jar and supplied voltage electrolysis started...i checked my fuel with multimeter and no shortage was found...
i was wondering if it has anything to do with my power supply...
the car battery i used had 9.16v in it and later the power supply i used had 13 volt but maximum 2ampere limit...no reaction was seen
PLEASE HELP ME OUT

[koya1893]

Providing a rough drawing or photos would help.

[shaunak]

i have uploaded the picture..;please check

[myoldyourgold]

Shanuak Ji, You need to show us exactly how you are connecting things. Also you need to have more bolts holding things together. In the photos you can see where it is leaking. You must not have any leaks! The white marking on the gaskets show it is leaking. For 12 volts which will go down quite quickly when not being charged at the same time you should only use not more than 6 N's (bipolar) plates. 5 N's will be better for just a 12 volt battery but then should not be used in a car which has 13.8 volts or more. What are you planning to do with your reactor? Is this just a bench test or is it going to be used in some vehicle?

[shaunak]

my project is to inject the hho generated into the air intake of engine to increase diesel combustion rate.

[myoldyourgold]

See http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?p=53231#post53231

[Stevo]

For 12 volts which will go down quite quickly when not being charged at the same time you should only use not more than 6 N's (bipolar) plates.

Great reason not to use as 12V battery for bench testing.


...used 25% NaOH...


5 N's will be better for just a 12 volt battery but then should not be used in a car which has 13.8 volts or more.

Voltage and electrolyte concentration go hand-in-hand. Many people will tell you 28% by weight is "best" while a few others (like me) will tell you to go the opposite direction and target ~2% by weight.

Bottom line:

28% by weight? >= 13.8VDC? 6 bipolars (works great, but most corrosive and hazardous)
28% by weight? ~ 12VDC? 5 bipolars

2% by weight? >= 13.8VDC? 6 bipolars (good effing luck)
2% by weight? ~ 12VDC? 5 bipolars (not a chance)

2% by weight? >= 13.8VDC? 5 bipolars (works great, least corrosive and hazardous - you must use current limiting PWM)

Most likely 2-part solution to the problem you are experiencing?


Only test with the target voltage (so choose: 12V battery or 13.8V from charging system or power supply)
Remove 1 bipolar plate (if choosing 12V battery)

[myoldyourgold]

Quote:
Originally Posted by myoldyourgold View Post
For 12 volts which will go down quite quickly when not being charged at the same time you should only use not more than 6 N's (bipolar) plates.
Great reason not to use as 12V battery for bench testing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shaunak
...used 25% NaOH...
Quote:
Originally Posted by myoldyourgold View Post
5 N's will be better for just a 12 volt battery but then should not be used in a car which has 13.8 volts or more.
Voltage and electrolyte concentration go hand-in-hand. Many people will tell you 28% by weight is "best" while a few others (like me) will tell you to go the opposite direction and target ~2% by weight.

Bottom line:

28% by weight? >= 13.8VDC? 6 bipolars (works great, but most corrosive and hazardous)
28% by weight? ~ 12VDC? 5 bipolars

2% by weight? >= 13.8VDC? 6 bipolars (good effing luck)
2% by weight? ~ 12VDC? 5 bipolars (not a chance)

2% by weight? >= 13.8VDC? 5 bipolars (works great, least corrosive and hazardous - you must use current limiting PWM)

Most likely 2-part solution to the problem you are experiencing?

Only test with the target voltage (so choose: 12V battery or 13.8V from charging system or power supply)
Remove 1 bipolar plate (if choosing 12V battery)

03-17-2013 03:19 PM



Stevo, I agree with every bit of your post!! Should be no debate here and good information all in one spot!!

[shaunak]

thank you stevo and myoldyourgold....you guys are really helpful...wil take your suggestion and il be updating you with the result...

[shaunak]

stevo...can you please tell me if 2% weight works fine then why do people in this forum ask to use 28% by weight..
suppose i want to use 12v invertor or car battery should i remove 1 bipolar plate to get continuous hho production?
because ultimately i want contionuous hho production...and i cannot make the device air tight with the 3mm pvc spacers...so do i need to use epdm rubber insulation as suggested by myoldyourgold?
MY AIM IS TO USE THE HHO TO INCREASE COMBUSTION RATE BY INJECTING HHO INTO AIR INTAKE..SO THAT UNBURNT GAS WILL BE REDUCED..THIS REDUCES EMMISION AND ALSO INCREASES FUEL EFFICIENCY

[Stevo]

stevo...can you please tell me if 2% weight works fine then why do people in this forum ask to use 28% by weight..

Simple: 28% is easier to get up and running. There are a lot of variables here. For my reactors, I use 1/16" FDA grade Buna-N rubber and 5 bipolar 2 active media blasted and specially conditioned 316L 18/22 gauge plates. This allows me to achieve roughly 1 L/m @13.8V 10-12A at room temperature. This is no easy task at all. Lots of work to build a single reactor, but I don't need 28% KOH - only 1-2% by weight. Others are fine with using 28% KOH and getting roughly 1L/m @13.8V >=15A at room temp. Every one of my tests have proven that higher concentrations means shorter bubbler fluid/media life and greater potential risk of engine ingesting noticeable amounts of vaporized electrolyte. My motor costs too much to take unnecessary risks that I can avoid. Also, since my latest discovery in plate conditioning, I have noticed two very interesting facts: system fluid stays clear and gas flame once ignited takes the form of what appears to be a "firework" instead of the traditional flame. I'm still compiling information and researching what may be happening here..

[myoldyourgold]

can you please tell me if 2% weight works fine then why do people in this forum ask to use 28% by weight..

I have to agree with Stevo. I also am not one for using full strength electrolyte. NaOH 20% and KOH 28%. I use the strength that runs the reactor at the amps I want it to run at without over heating and based on the size of the plate. The ones that use full strength have to use a PWM to keep things in check and they think that they have an advantage because the electrolyte has less resistance. I have found this is not the case. Low concentration is safer and there is no need for a PWM. There is a case for the use of a PWM if you want to control your reactor to even a lower amperage for certain engine demand and then bypassing the PWM for higher demand based on electrolyte strength but still not over heating it. This will give you two zones which if all is off at idle 3 zones and yields better returns on small engines. This is a complex set up and might not be something everyone is able to use. In larger engines where at idle they are consuming large amounts of fuel the reactor can stay on. I am talking about 30 litter engines or larger.

[shaunak]

well stevo and myoldyourgold , i have modified my design..
right now i have 2 working plates and 4 neutral plates...and i have used rubber spacers instead of pvc...now my fuel cell is leak proof...
i am planning to use an invertor battery directly...it is 12v ...what percentage of KOH u suggest me? 28% or 2%?
please let me know soon..
and both my inlet and oulet are at same level..do i need to place the inlet slightly below the outlet? will it make any difference?
waiting for your reply

[Stevo]

shaunak,

Your inlet should be located at the bottom while the outlet should be located at the top. Gas will rise to the top and water will have a heavier gravitational pull, so if you place the inlet and outlet at the same level you will not get the natural pumping action that sealed reactors provide. Also, the bottom of your reservoir should be no lower that the top of your reactor. In other words, place your reservoir above the reactor. All of these steps have been proven to work time and time again here and on other forums.

As far as KOH concentration goes, work your way up from 2% to see what you like. Expect that once you go above ~10% for your plates to begin leeching surface iron at a noticeable rate. Your water may begin to change colors and you will notice that a magnet will attract the sediment confirming the iron content.