Confused and disappointed (My wet cell needs help)

[Jay30]

Hi all getting frustrated as im sure u all have been there lots of times but just wondering if I could get a little help and get me back on track. I started out with 1/2 lpm trying to reach 1 lpm but now I'm at 1/4 lpm going backwards sucks. I have tryed different size plates,plate configuration,gap between plates I am lost. Ok so this was my last set up plates are 18 gage 316 ss plate gap of 1/16 plates are 2 1/2 x 8 configuration is -nnnnnn+nnnnnn- this gave me 2.08 v - 1.84 v across my plates using 2 teaspoons of NaOh to 1 1/4 liters of distilled water. I start with very little NaOh and keep adding untill I reach my max in amps (20a)or temp (140 f) I have been maxing out on temp 9 out of 10 times with all kinds of different set ups. I even tryed sealing edges of my plates to cut down current leakage to get the heat down but still no luck. Please help thanks.

[Jay30]

O ya by the way before u all beet up on me and my wet cell and tell me to go dry,yes I get it I do want to but I'm on a budget and this is what I have to work with but in the future I plan on going dry cell just can't do it now. If I only new I would of spent the money on starting with building a dry cell. O well lots to learn. Thanks all.

[RustyLugNut]

O ya by the way before u all beet up on me and my wet cell and tell me to go dry,yes I get it I do want to but I'm on a budget and this is what I have to work with but in the future I plan on going dry cell just can't do it now. If I only new I would of spent the money on starting with building a dry cell. O well lots to learn. Thanks all.

Jay,

Wet cells are fine, just understand their limitations.

Just a few questions.

Are you running the plates directly in a bath container? If so, what is that container?

It might not be all too difficult or expensive to do what others have done and just make a single 2 plate cell that runs cool and reliably then duplicate that and run them in series in different bath containers.

+I I-

I am assuming your power supply is a variable unit that you can turn down the voltage to 2 or 3 volts. Once you have this single cell functioning, you can construct another cell and run it in series in a different bath.

+I I^I I-

Run them at 4 to 6 volts and see how this functions for you. You can keep adding to your series cells until you get to the limits of your voltage source. This will also let you know how each cell functions and how to control it.

Some principles that affect current through a single 2 plate cell, and translate to a series cell:

1.The greater the concentration of electrolyte, the greater the tendency for current to flow. I think you have a knowledge of this.

2.The greater the surface area of the plates, the greater the current capacity.

3.The closer the plates are together, the greater the tendency for current flow. However, if your electrolyte is relatively strong in concentration, this becomes less of a factor.

4. The greater the voltage driving the cell, the greater the current.

5. The greater the temperature of your electrolyte, the greater the current.

Points 4 & 5 are greatly interrelated. Once you reach the over voltage of the cell (about 2.2 -2.5 volts for 316SS and KOH or NaOH electrolyte), any more voltage greatly increases the current. But, this also increases your heat production and results in even more current. This can thus result in thermal current runaway. You have already seen this in your cell setup.

Using neutral plates in a common bath series setup is very difficult as the neutral plates are easily bypassed by the current. To get any effectiveness out of them you will have to make them larger than your power plates and move them much closer together.

I hope you find some of this helpful.

[Jay30]

Thank-you for the reply RustyLugNut. To answer your qwestions yes the cell is compleatly submerged in a bath in a cylinder container 3" round at the bace and 4" round at the top it is 16" tall. I'm not sure I have room to do two seperate bath containers but I'm going to have a look and see what I can do,its going in a 87 blazer 4.3 L once I get it producing 1 lpm. When I am bench testing yes I am using a variable power supply. So with 2 bath 2 plate setup do I use newtral plates? Sorry im not good with electrical terms +II- is this + newtral newtral - also Im not sure what +II^II- is. I realy like the idea of making my newtral plate bigger than the + and- plates this makes cence to prevent currant leakage. One other question with two 2 plate cells in 2 seperate bath containers will I b able to get 1 lpm out of this set up or will it take more of these baths in seperate containers as I said I'm not sure how much more room I can make to do so. Thanks Jay

[hhofox]

Rusty is trying to have you learn how voltage and current affect HHO production, while getting your unit running.
Simply put:
If you take just a + and a -, put them into the electrolyte mix, and limit the voltage to 2v, you will get cool and efficient production. You won't get a lot a of gas, but things will stay cool.

After that, you can make things more complicated by making a carbon copy of your + - jar, wiring it like +- +-, then supplying them with 4v. If you keep doing this, you will end up with more gas, still cool operation, and a lot of space used up by each container.

When you get to this stage, you will see why a dry cell is more efficient, since each pair of plates basically sandwiches the electrolyte between them, while staying cool, and taking up less space.

1LPM with wet cells can take up a lot of space, depending on the size of the plates and containers. Measure the output of a single +- container @ about 2v and then you will know how many you'll need to make 1LPM.

If you want to get some savings going right now though, just research Hydrocarbon Cracking System. It's really easy to set up, and gives instant results when done right!

[Jay30]

Thanks for the input hhofox i get where u guys are taking me ,that's great this will give me more off a understanding of it all so I can learn it properly and answer some of my own qwestions for myself. Just like anything else, learn the bacics first, that's one problem about the Internet you see something like this and think that it's not that hard to build without learning about it first. Dont get me wrong I did do a couple of months research about it first,but that's not enough I need some bacic practical also. thanks Guys.

[Jay30]

Ok first I would like to thank hhofox and Rusty for getting me to do some of my own experementing on 2 plates in a wet cell to get some answers it was a big help, I am understanding this much better now,But I do have a couple of qwestions I was trying different gaps and found that it would produce more with a smaller gap,I think that this is because there is less resistance and the current dosent have to work as hard to produce hho this helped keep my amps and heet down and electrolyte as well with good hho. Second I was trying perferated plates and solid plates this is where I got confused I always thought that more surface area was better but I found that the perferated plates produced more with less amps, it seemed to me like it was getting better circulation and was getting the hho bubbles of faster and also less resistance than the solid plates. So I was just wondering if my findings are correct and if I am on the right track. Thanks Jay

[hhofox]

Hi Jay, great to hear that things are taking off for you! (If you had read through many of the other threads on this forum, you would have learned much more already -but hands-on works best for some people.)

You are right about the plate spacing and the effect it has on production -good job! My plates are 1/8" apart. Some people use 1/16" with lower amps.

Interesting info about the perforated plated though. Where did you get those plates? Are they the same as the regular plates? What is the spacing like for the holes -or is it more like a mesh?

To determine the difference in gas output, just measure them. Use the bottle and bucket method. Be sure to tell us how many amps the set ups use, and how much gas you get at that reading in 1 minute.

I am very interested in your results!

[D.O.G]

Second I was trying perferated plates and solid plates this is where I got confused I always thought that more surface area was better but I found that the perferated plates produced more with less amps, it seemed to me like it was getting better circulation and was getting the hho bubbles of faster and also less resistance than the solid plates. So I was just wondering if my findings are correct and if I am on the right track. Thanks Jay

I haven't tested with perforated plates, but I'd like to take a guess why reports of good results with perforated plate crop up now and then.

The "edge effect" is well documented in electroplating, it's why wet cells have such a bad reputation.
Basically, most of the current flows from edge to edge, with relatively little flow between the plate surfaces.
By using perforated plate, you introduce hundreds of extra "edges", spread across the plate surfaces. Maybe this serves to better average out the current density across the surface?

Of course, a dry cell, with the inlet and outlet holes isolated, using weldon-16 or Shane's Shim Cell, removes (most of) the problem better anyway.

[Jay30]

What you are saying makes sence D.O.G. This may help with my wet cell problems for now till I build a dry cell. I am going to experement a little further into it and build another cell the same as the one I am currently using to get more acurate results and compare the two I will post my results when I get it finished. Hi hhofox just to answer your qwestion I am using 21 gage Perferated plates the holes are 5/64 and 3/16 apart from hole to hole.

[Jay30]

Well I ended up with mixed results,the perferated plates seemed to produce more than the solid with low electrolight and low amps but once you get the electrolyte up to the norm and amps up over 10 amps they seemed to eqwal out and produce the same.sloid plates at 4.5 amps 13.8 volts water temp 70 f produced 1/8 lpm. Perferated plates at 4.5 amps 13.8 volts water temp 72 f produced 1/4 lpm, but once I put the amps to 13.5 at 13.8 volts water temp was 120 f and both produced 1/2 lpm. So I guess it's not going to help with my wet cell but I may try using solid plates for newtrel plates and perferated for + and- to see what happens or It may just be time to suck it up and build a dry cell to get my 1 lpm or as rusty had said to go with two seperate baths. I was also wondering about the hydrocarbon cracking system that hhofox was talking about,could you combine this with the hho unit having the hho output go through hcs system or have the hcs system output go through the hho system? Also has anyone tryed the hcs system and how safe is it? It seems scetchy to me no backfire arrester or water bubbler and heating gas vapor with the manifold. I'm just not sure of this but I like the idea of a more pure hydrogen if I used my cell with this I just may start to see some results. That would be nice.

[D.O.G]

I was also wondering about the hydrocarbon cracking system that hhofox was talking about,could you combine this with the hho unit having the hho output go through hcs system or have the hcs system output go through the hho system? Also has anyone tryed the hcs system and how safe is it? It seems scetchy to me no backfire arrester or water bubbler and heating gas vapor with the manifold. I'm just not sure of this but I like the idea of a more pure hydrogen if I used my cell with this I just may start to see some results. That would be nice.

I've been following the HCS thread on another site with some interest.
I'm not ready to start experimenting with it myself, but I'm planning to once I have available time.:rolleyes:
Because it doesn't need sensor readings to be altered (?), I see this as an alternative to HHO, rather than as an addition.
I do agree that some aspects of the system are a bit "sketchy".

[hhofox]

I do use the both HHO and HCS. HCS is quite effective and uses no power what so ever from your engine. It allowed me to lean out my carb because of how much gas vapour it supplies! Also, it is very simple to set up, and at low cost.
It is phenomenal for bikes! On the last page of the thread dealing with it, Edostar set it up on a bike in about 1 hr. After that, a trip that took 8.5L of fuel 1 way, took only 4.5L going back! The accel and torque are also increased instantly. Flashback is easily countered by fine steel wool in the line. I can't go back to driving without it!
Basically, you make a bubbler -like with HHO- but you put in gasoline.
Then, you take a length of copper tubing and wrap it around your exhaust pipe.
(Putting some other metal inside the copper pipe -like the rod in GEET helps the process along)
Then have the engine suck in the vapourized gas; alternately, you could have the hot air coming from the breather on the engine push the vapourized gas into your air cleaner so it gets sucked in.
Both ways increase air flow with acceleration.
That's it! You can use a valve to regulate the air flow, so as to get the best results.
I am currently up from 25MPG to 32. So I am testing to see it's the HHO or the HCS or both.
Try the stuff and see -it's all good!
For my next project, I'm gonna try to get my hands on an ultrasonic transducer to see if I can vapourize the gas even more.
If anyone knows any device that I can tear down and get one out of, please let me know. Thanks!

[Jay30]

Thanks hhofox I think I am going to have to try it out,its so simple but sounds like it works very well so why not try. I think I will still build a backfire arrestor any way just to be safe. If I get time this week I will put one in if not on the weekend for sure. I will let u know how I make out with it. Have you ever tryed running your hho output through your hcs system to vaporize the hho as well. I think it would work as a good dryer as well. Just not sure if the hho would be to explosive to run through the hcs system. What do you think maybe a bad idea?

[hhofox]

I have run the HHO through it -but removed it again, since it really does pose a threat when HHO is heated up.
I didn't have any issues, but it's better to be safe, than sorry.

Anyhow, just check the link below and you'll get a better picture of what to do.
http://www.fuel-saver.org/Thread-Hydrocarbon-cracking-System?page=51

[Jay30]

Thanks hhofox I was just curious if you have tryed that or not it dose seem like it could cause a problem,as you said better to be safe. Thanks for the link I have been reading on that forum since you had told me about the hcs,there is a lot of good info on that thread. Thanks again for all the help.