Help with EFIE and Fuel Trim

[Quebecker]

Hi,

I have a strange behavior with my Fuel Trim and I want to know if this is because I inject the wrong amount of gas or my Dual WideBand EFIE is wrong adjusted

Here is my setup

Road Test: 220 km (Go 110 and retourn 110)
HHO: 7 amp
Dual WideBand EFIE - Wideband at 9 o'clock (¼ turn) and narrowband at 125 mV

Car without HHO and without EFIE (STOCK)

If I reset the ECU and I have traveled this route, SF1 is between -1 to 2 but it very often to 0 or 1. For its part, the LF1 is -1 to 1 but very very often 0. These values ​​are taken on plane road

Fuel Consumption: 34 MPG us

Car with HHO and EFIE

If I reset the ECU and I have traveled this route, SF1 is between -1 to 5 but it very often to 2 or 3. For its part, the LF1 is +1 to +3 but very very often +2. These values ​​are taken on plane road. When the road becomes a gentle slope and the car must force the SF1 decreases to values ​​up to -5.

Fuel Consumption: 37 MPG us


Observations

During City driving, the SF1 is almost always in negative values ​​and the LF1 is still in negative values ​​(When it comes time to fill up , LF1 is usually to -4)

City Fuel Consumption when stock: 28.7 MPG US
City Fuel Consumption with HHO and EFIE stock: 25.5 MPG US


If I understood correctly, in this context, Fuel Trim (in response to sensors) tell the ECU to increase the injector pulse duration. Am I to conclude that the oxygen sensor is a surplus of oxygen (low ratio) and they give the order to inject more fuel

What should I do to achieve better fuel economy ?

Thanks in advance

[myoldyourgold]

Quebecker, are you using the off at Idle? This might decrease the problem to some extent. The ratio of HHO to demand for fuel is only correct at one load point. This is a problem for everyone and you must tune for where you do the most driving. If it is 50/50 then you will get better gains half the time but the total average should be better. The new controller should solve this problem.

[Quebecker]

Yes, it's off at idle with level switch on accelerator but EFIE remain ON even at idle

[myoldyourgold]

That could be the problem. Because of the delay on that EFIE it might not work as good but try turning it off too. The delay might not be enough to hurt the mileage or the computer. It is worth a try.

[Madsceintist]

Do you have emissions testing or inspections where you are ?

[Quebecker]

Do you have emissions testing or inspections where you are ?

Hi Madsceintist,

I think so, why ?

[Quebecker]

That could be the problem. Because of the delay on that EFIE it might not work as good but try turning it off too. The delay might not be enough to hurt the mileage or the computer. It is worth a try.

But during my road test, I'm not in city, I'm on highway (never at idle)

I also noticed something very very strange but the product at all times (stock / with HHO and EFIE)

Generally. my SF1 has reasonable differences (-7 to +8) but my SF2 seems crazy. It goes from -11 (at idle) to +40 .. +80.. +94 when I drive. This may be my ScanGauge II which is problem. I don't know

There is one thing I am certain is that my car uses more fuel than the car other persones that I know

S T O C K CONSUMTION

My father - Civic LX 2004 - Automatic 1.7 liter - 110 000 km
He drives very very moderately (118 km/hr - 73 MPH )
Highway: 6.2 l/100km (37.9 MPG US)

My friends - Civic LX 2004 - Manual 1.7 liter - 235 000 km
He drives hardly (118 km/hr - 73 MPH )
Highway: 6.1 l/100km (38.6 MPG US)

MY civic EX 2004 (SI in Canada) - Automatic 1.7 V-TEC - 149 500 km
New WideBand sensor, new O2 sensor, new Timing Belt, new tires
And I drives very very moderately (110 km/hr - 68 MPH)
Highway: 6.9 l/100km (34.1 MPG US)

Very Weird :confused:

[Madsceintist]

Well, just to say if you want really good mileage and aren't worried with the check engine light or have to bother with inspections, you could put everything back to stock, then leave the o2's unplugged(not recommended for legal reasons in the U.S.) and cut out fuel from the pump by limiting the voltage to the pump. Of coarse with the HHO!
If you produce enough HHO then I would also insert a reducer in the intake tube or filter housing. Such as to reduce by 1/4 to 1/3 your current diameter.

What does this do and Why ???

With no o2's, your computer will have a base setting for fuel usage and use the load and throttle to determine consumption. There for cutting back fuel manually from its source will reduce your fuel consumption! I have found in past running that 5. to 7.5 volts will run everything just fine even with a load. The HHO makes up for the needed missing power to perform and run. You can run more HHO due the fact the o2's can't pick up the oxygen content !!!!!
The reduction in the tube is so that the added oxygen from the HHO is not increased by the intake!!

[Quebecker]

Here in Canada (Quebec), the control is only mandatory when selling the vehicle. This is an interesting solution for someone who does not care about the CEL.

By doing so, do you have a rule on the amount of HHO to injected ? Normaly, it's about 1/4 liter per minute for each liter of engine size.

Thanks

[Madsceintist]

This is where I'm going to get hacked to pieces...............
I do not have a lpm figure for you or a guess! I had my cell running full time at idle and at all driving ranges. I would alter the voltage to the pump to find the sweet spot for what the HHO generator was putting out and went with that. The best I achieved with that set up was 129 mpg. It was a lot of work as it was very basic and in experimental stages.

[RustyLugNut]

This is where I'm going to get hacked to pieces...............
I do not have a lpm figure for you or a guess! I had my cell running full time at idle and at all driving ranges. I would alter the voltage to the pump to find the sweet spot for what the HHO generator was putting out and went with that. The best I achieved with that set up was 129 mpg. It was a lot of work as it was very basic and in experimental stages.

Because we have no way to verify your claims since you are fearful to show anyone or post up any pictures or diagrams/drawings. Until you do, I call BS on your 129 mpg claim.

[Madsceintist]

Anyone attempting the same experiment will find this to be highly creditable so I give a shi* about you call! There are witness' to my work and I need not have YOUR approval. So lets move on from these childish attacks. If you need some help with something, then ask, don't be a dic*.

[Quebecker]

Well, just to say if you want really good mileage and aren't worried with the check engine light or have to bother with inspections, you could put everything back to stock, then leave the o2's unplugged(not recommended for legal reasons in the U.S.) and cut out fuel from the pump by limiting the voltage to the pump. Of coarse with the HHO!
If you produce enough HHO then I would also insert a reducer in the intake tube or filter housing. Such as to reduce by 1/4 to 1/3 your current diameter.

What does this do and Why ???

With no o2's, your computer will have a base setting for fuel usage and use the load and throttle to determine consumption. There for cutting back fuel manually from its source will reduce your fuel consumption! I have found in past running that 5. to 7.5 volts will run everything just fine even with a load. The HHO makes up for the needed missing power to perform and run. You can run more HHO due the fact the o2's can't pick up the oxygen content !!!!!
The reduction in the tube is so that the added oxygen from the HHO is not increased by the intake!!

Hi,

Corrected me if I'm wrong but the pump move the fuel from the tank to the injectors and the excess fuel back to the tank via the pressure regulator.

The pump's role is to create pressure. For its part, the role of the pressure regulator is to maintains a constant pressure.


Reduce the voltage may damage the pump ?

Reduce the voltage of the pump will not change the pressure in a fuel line, it's just that the pressure regulator that will open less often. Therefore, the pulse duration will be the same and the pressure being the same, the amount of fuel injected is the same

[RustyLugNut]

Anyone attempting the same experiment will find this to be highly creditable so I give a shi* about you call! There are witness' to my work and I need not have YOUR approval. So lets move on from these childish attacks. If you need some help with something, then ask, don't be a dic*.

These are questions of credibility. No one on these forums has seen your work. No one else has reproduced your work. Your witnesses only count in your circles.

Because your claim of 129 mpg is not credible - it casts doubt on ALL your posts.

[RustyLugNut]

Hi,

Corrected me if I'm wrong but the pump move the fuel from the tank to the injectors and the excess fuel back to the tank via the pressure regulator.

The pump's role is to create pressure. For its part, the role of the pressure regulator is to maintains a constant pressure.


Reduce the voltage may damage the pump ?

Reduce the voltage of the pump will not change the pressure in a fuel line, it's just that the pressure regulator that will open less often. Therefore, the pulse duration will be the same and the pressure being the same, the amount of fuel injected is the same

He is referring to modern non-return fuel injection systems found in many current autos and in many after market retrofit systems.

Some have a return regulator at the pump so the pump runs continuously while the pressure upstream is constant.

Others have no return at all and use a feedback loop to sense pressure upstream and run the pump at variable output to provide a constant pressure to the engine so injector duration is the only variable to fuel flow.

[Madsceintist]

Hi,

Corrected me if I'm wrong but the pump move the fuel from the tank to the injectors and the excess fuel back to the tank via the pressure regulator.

The pump's role is to create pressure. For its part, the role of the pressure regulator is to maintains a constant pressure.


Reduce the voltage may damage the pump ?

Reduce the voltage of the pump will not change the pressure in a fuel line, it's just that the pressure regulator that will open less often. Therefore, the pulse duration will be the same and the pressure being the same, the amount of fuel injected is the same



As you believe the system to works is true to a degree. Change anything and you change everything. Theory is one thing, doing is sometimes the opposite. Perhaps not every car will react the same.
Regulators work on pressure and vacuum, they're designed to operate within a specific range. If you fall below that range then they are not effective as they should be.

If you drop below a voltage that can turn the pump, yes you can possibly damage the pump(arc short). If there is enough voltage to turn the pump then you will have no issues. I tried several different pumps and have had no problems with any yet.

Yes changing the supply of fuel to the line DOES change the pressure!! Supply verses demand. You have the same demand but less supply, so the pressure drops. Reduce the fuel supply and you reduce the consumption! This is not an idea, but something that I have found to be true in testing!

[Madsceintist]

He is referring to modern non-return fuel injection systems found in many current autos and in many after market retrofit systems.

Some have a return regulator at the pump so the pump runs continuously while the pressure upstream is constant.

Others have no return at all and use a feedback loop to sense pressure upstream and run the pump at variable output to provide a constant pressure to the engine so injector duration is the only variable to fuel flow.

ANY injected fuel system is in this realm. Whether the pressure regulator is on the engine or in the tank or somewhere else(2003 BMW 330i) regulator is part of the fuel filter! This discussion was open once before, No system known to me as of yet slows or stops the pump to alter fuel pressure.
Bash if you wish, but some of the crude works that I did have were not photographed as it was "crude", and I wanted "prettier" works to be seen. But as I progressed I gave a shi* about those previous things as I found myself not needing them where I have come to.

Though I do have a mess of junk left over in boxes, if you really wish to see!

[RustyLugNut]

ANY injected fuel system is in this realm. Whether the pressure regulator is on the engine or in the tank or somewhere else(2003 BMW 330i) regulator is part of the fuel filter! This discussion was open once before, No system known to me as of yet slows or stops the pump to alter fuel pressure.
Bash if you wish, but some of the crude works that I did have were not photographed as it was "crude", and I wanted "prettier" works to be seen. But as I progressed I gave a shi* about those previous things as I found myself not needing them where I have come to.

Though I do have a mess of junk left over in boxes, if you really wish to see!

If you are here to "facilitate the production of HHO for the common folk", then please educate us and let us reproduce your work. Otherwise, it is seen as narcissistic aggrandizement. For what purpose, I don't know. I would be happy to be proved wrong by you as you help all of us achieve 100+ mpg in our own vehicles.

As far as modern feedback fuel pumps, here is an excerpt from an article by Larry Carley, Technical Editor for Underhood Services, 2009.

"Electronic returnless EFI systems also may be referred to as “On Demand” returnless EFI systems because they use a fuel tank pressure sensor to monitor fuel pressure. The PCM varies the speed of the fuel pump to increase or decrease fuel flow using pulse width modulation (PWM) of the pump’s supply voltage. The PCM determines how much fuel is required based on engine load and inputs from its other sensors. This type of system is typically used on an engine that has an airflow sensor to monitor engine load. "

[Madsceintist]

If you are here to "facilitate the production of HHO for the common folk", then please educate us and let us reproduce your work. Otherwise, it is seen as narcissistic aggrandizement. For what purpose, I don't know. I would be happy to be proved wrong by you as you help all of us achieve 100+ mpg in our own vehicles.

As far as modern feedback fuel pumps, here is an excerpt from an article by Larry Carley, Technical Editor for Underhood Services, 2009.

"Electronic returnless EFI systems also may be referred to as “On Demand” returnless EFI systems because they use a fuel tank pressure sensor to monitor fuel pressure. The PCM varies the speed of the fuel pump to increase or decrease fuel flow using pulse width modulation (PWM) of the pump’s supply voltage. The PCM determines how much fuel is required based on engine load and inputs from its other sensors. This type of system is typically used on an engine that has an airflow sensor to monitor engine load. "

***"Electronic returnless EFI systems also may be referred to as “On Demand” returnless EFI systems because they use a fuel tank pressure sensor to monitor fuel pressure.****

I welcome you yourself to find this as proof and show me! There is a pressure sensor on many of today's tanks, however it is not or does not measure the fuel pressure in any way, it measure's the vacuum/expansion pressure of the tank! This is what the computer uses to activate the EVAP solenoid to create vacuum on the tank to prevent fuel fumes from escaping into the atmosphere,(EPA regulations).

****The PCM varies the speed of the fuel pump to increase or decrease fuel flow using pulse width modulation (PWM) of the pump’s supply voltage. The PCM determines how much fuel is required based on engine load and inputs from its other sensors.****

The PCM does control and determine how much fuel to give the engine via the pulse width of the INJECTORS, NOT the fuel pump!

****This type of system is typically used on an engine that has an airflow sensor to monitor engine load.****

From the late 70's, air flow meters have been in use by different car manufactures and at no point in the ELECTRICAL systems have I heard of or seen one to interfere with the fuel pump operation as this quote say's! On older Mercedes, Volkswagen, Audi, and some other European manufactures there is a mechanical fuel delivery system which the air flow meter is directly a part of the fuel delivery, and yet these cars still have electrical pumps, in some cases 2 of them. HOWEVER, there is still a regulator and a return. The system you seem to want to imagine is not as you want to picture! The in tank pump that you want to be "return-less", in fact does have a regulator IN THE pump housing, which directly returns the fuel IN THE HOUSING! SOME pumps also have it built into the pump and has a very small tube to reroute the fuel back to the pumps inlet, BUT it still has this relief and the pump still has a full system voltage to it, unaltered by the computer!



When I get the chance and time, I will take one of the ones I have apart and take a picture for you of an actual "return-less" pump.

OH BY THE WAY, this quote you have, when I read it, first thought to come to mind was the POPULAR MECHANICS Mike Allen and his article on HHO and how its bogus! When read as you have quoted, I also feel like this was written as 101 for dummies BY dummies!





One more thing.................................. Outside of yourself, is there anyone on here that has not had help from something or everything I have posted? No I haven't posted much as pictures, but there isn't much to see! What I have came up with or have done I can explain pretty well, outside of a few things that I just wont. And I think that with what help I do give, SOME on here could probably do the same thing or better. Some people have more insight into mechanics and hands on then the Intellectual aspect of it doesn't work because I said it cant.

[RustyLugNut]

***"Electronic returnless EFI systems also may be referred to as “On Demand” returnless EFI systems because they use a fuel tank pressure sensor to monitor fuel pressure.****

I welcome you yourself to find this as proof and show me! There is a pressure sensor on many of today's tanks, however it is not or does not measure the fuel pressure in any way, it measure's the vacuum/expansion pressure of the tank! This is what the computer uses to activate the EVAP solenoid to create vacuum on the tank to prevent fuel fumes from escaping into the atmosphere,(EPA regulations).

****The PCM varies the speed of the fuel pump to increase or decrease fuel flow using pulse width modulation (PWM) of the pump’s supply voltage. The PCM determines how much fuel is required based on engine load and inputs from its other sensors.****

The PCM does control and determine how much fuel to give the engine via the pulse width of the INJECTORS, NOT the fuel pump!

****This type of system is typically used on an engine that has an airflow sensor to monitor engine load.****

From the late 70's, air flow meters have been in use by different car manufactures and at no point in the ELECTRICAL systems have I heard of or seen one to interfere with the fuel pump operation as this quote say's! On older Mercedes, Volkswagen, Audi, and some other European manufactures there is a mechanical fuel delivery system which the air flow meter is directly a part of the fuel delivery. HOWEVER, there is still a regulator and a return. The system you seem to want to imagine is not as you want to picture! The in tank pump that you want to be "return-less", in fact does have a regulator IN THE pump housing, which directly returns the fuel IN THE HOUSING! SOME pumps also have it built into the pump and has a very small tube to reroute the fuel back to the pumps inlet, BUT it still has this relief and the pump still has a full system voltage to it, unaltered by the computer!



When I get the chance and time, I will take one of the ones I have apart and take a picture for you of an actual "return-less" pump.

OH BY THE WAY, this quote you have, when I read it, first thought to come to mind was the POPULAR MECHANICS Mike Allen and his article on HHO and how its bogus!

Why don't you argue with the writer of the article. Here is the digital page.

http://www.underhoodservice.com/Article/46468/point_of_no_return_returnless_fuel_injection_syste ms.aspx

The article is from 2009 and it inspired me to build a closed loop controller for the Summit EFI pump I use inline in my Mercedes. There is no return line. A piezo electric pressure sensor feeds a signal to a custom programmed MicroPic micro controller that drives a pair of HexFets which in turn drive the pump via variable duration pulses (PWM).

I am not a mechanic like you are. But, I am an engineer and what I imagine, I can build.

The thing is, you can now purchase after market kits to do the same thing for only a few hundred dollars. Look up Retrotek.

[Madsceintist]

I took a look at that article thank you. And if you look at which assembly he is showing then it backs me up 100%. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyone on here can spend 5 min. or more to search for this type of setup you say you use. ITS not available. No automobile manufacture, after-market manufacture or service technician will offer or recommend that the fuel pump voltage be altered as this! I took the knowledge that I have and what I have learned of HHO and the use of both to do what I did! I will help anyone to understand how and what and why, but I have surpassed that point in my own achievements. However some may still wish to use it, and that's more than fine with me. All systems available; stand alone of any type, factory, or replacement of all types alter the injection pulse of the INJECTOR, not the pump.

Note in my use of this particular experiment I did find that below 4.5 volts created too much heat build-up to control. Something somewhere would burn or blow. So use caution and circuit breakers for anyone attempting this! I used a 40 amp fan control relay and "2" 20 amp circuit breakers bridged to get the voltage I wanted, the switch for the controller is what would give in the end(until i figured out to stay above 4.5 volts).

So to detour the next question, I would drive at normal ranges and varied roads for several miles(usually 30 or more at minimum), not just to the corner and back. I measured by the exact gallon not the fill up. When on the highway where i had a light load and no stop and go, I would go from a minimum voltage to the fuel pump being switched OFF. With the fuel pump switched off, I would drive strictly on HHO until the engine needed the additional power to pull a hill or pass or when I came to a stop or slowed down enough that it would chug, indicating that I needed to turn on the pump which would be at the minimum voltage necessary to keep the engine running and not chugging. Again as I said, the sweet spot in which I found was between 5. volts to 7.5 volts to the pump. Occasionally I did have to have it around 9. volts to drive in town. This was all measured with a very nice volt meter, a FLUKE. I also have a FLUKE 336 clamp amp-meter that is no contact, also very nice to have!

[RustyLugNut]

I took a look at that article thank you. And if you look at which assembly he is showing then it backs me up 100%. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyone on here can spend 5 min. or more to search for this type of setup you say you use. ITS not available. No automobile manufacture, after-market manufacture or service technician will offer or recommend that the fuel pump voltage be altered as this! I took the knowledge that I have and what I have learned of HHO and the use of both to do what I did! I will help anyone to understand how and what and why, but I have surpassed that point in my own achievements. However some may still wish to use it, and that's more than fine with me. All systems available; stand alone of any type, factory, or replacement of all types alter the injection pulse of the INJECTOR, not the pump.

Note in my use of this particular experiment I did find that below 4.5 volts created too much heat build-up to control. Something somewhere would burn or blow. So use caution and circuit breakers for anyone attempting this! I used a 40 amp fan control relay and "2" 20 amp circuit breakers bridged to get the voltage I wanted, the switch for the controller is what would give in the end(until i figured out to stay above 4.5 volts).


The builders of Retrotek are right here in Hawthorne California. Their controller works on the principle of PWM of the pump motor.

MSD has a system which can run return less using the same principle of varying the pump speed.

Why don't you call them up and tell them what you just posted on here?

[Madsceintist]

it inspired me to build a closed loop controller for the Summit EFI pump I use inline in my Mercedes. There is no return line. A piezo electric pressure sensor feeds a signal to a custom programmed MicroPic micro controller that drives a pair of HexFets which in turn drive the pump via variable duration pulses (PWM).
The thing is, you can now purchase after market kits to do the same thing for only a few hundred dollars. Look up Retrotek.

What pump and what pressure does it have the capability of handling?

Looked it up; For the "return-less" system it isn't using a factory pump, which are high pressure pumps 30 to over 70 psi! Controlling an exterior low pressure pump is one thing. I have used these types of pumps to run carburetors for years. I can say that I haven't seen a management system for them however.

[RustyLugNut]

What pump and what pressure does it have the capability of handling?

Looked it up; For the "return-less" system it isn't using a factory pump, which are high pressure pumps 30 to over 70 psi! Controlling an exterior low pressure pump is one thing. I have used these types of pumps to run carburetors for years. I can say that I haven't seen a management system for them however.

The Summit pump is their MSD Knock-off. I think they still sell it as their part number Sum-G3138. It is rated at 45 psi.

The Retrotek controller can be used with stock pumps in most cases. I have a 2005 Hemi I want to set up with a Pro Charger blower, and I don't want to use their extra enrichment injection block. The Retrotek might allow me to do without the enrichment block by simply increasing rail pressure when under boost. We'll see.

And MacSceintist, this is a good useful discussion. Just like many of your auto related discussions. We appreciate that.

[myoldyourgold]

Thank you Gentleman. This is worth while, informative and appreciated. This gives one more avenue to achieve better results when it comes to tuning of some of the newer vehicles. It does possibly make things a little more complex and expensive.

[RustyLugNut]

This gives one more avenue to achieve better results when it comes to tuning of some of the newer vehicles. It does possibly make things a little more complex and expensive.

I postulate all a vehicle will need to run HHO effectively is an additional sensor and possibly a pump control such as this. Of course, the HHO generator will not be just a constant run unit, but will have to be able to match it's output to the load of the engine to some degree and rapidity.

I always used the idea of increasing rail pressure to increase injector flow as boost increased. But MadSceintist's idea of reducing pressure to lean out fuel is doable. I will certainly try the idea.

[ultra_efficient]

Hi,

I have a strange behavior with my Fuel Trim and I want to know if this is because I inject the wrong amount of gas or my Dual WideBand EFIE is wrong adjusted

Here is my setup

Road Test: 220 km (Go 110 and retourn 110)
HHO: 7 amp
Dual WideBand EFIE - Wideband at 9 o'clock (¼ turn) and narrowband at 125 mV

Car without HHO and without EFIE (STOCK)

If I reset the ECU and I have traveled this route, SF1 is between -1 to 2 but it very often to 0 or 1. For its part, the LF1 is -1 to 1 but very very often 0. These values ​​are taken on plane road

Fuel Consumption: 34 MPG us

Car with HHO and EFIE

If I reset the ECU and I have traveled this route, SF1 is between -1 to 5 but it very often to 2 or 3. For its part, the LF1 is +1 to +3 but very very often +2. These values ​​are taken on plane road. When the road becomes a gentle slope and the car must force the SF1 decreases to values ​​up to -5.

Fuel Consumption: 37 MPG us


Observations

During City driving, the SF1 is almost always in negative values ​​and the LF1 is still in negative values ​​(When it comes time to fill up , LF1 is usually to -4)

City Fuel Consumption when stock: 28.7 MPG US
City Fuel Consumption with HHO and EFIE stock: 25.5 MPG US


If I understood correctly, in this context, Fuel Trim (in response to sensors) tell the ECU to increase the injector pulse duration. Am I to conclude that the oxygen sensor is a surplus of oxygen (low ratio) and they give the order to inject more fuel

What should I do to achieve better fuel economy ?

Thanks in advance

Apexi VAFC2

[reopheus]

Well, just to say if you want really good mileage and aren't worried with the check engine light or have to bother with inspections, you could put everything back to stock, then leave the o2's unplugged(not recommended for legal reasons in the U.S.) and cut out fuel from the pump by limiting the voltage to the pump. Of coarse with the HHO!
If you produce enough HHO then I would also insert a reducer in the intake tube or filter housing. Such as to reduce by 1/4 to 1/3 your current diameter.

What does this do and Why ???

With no o2's, your computer will have a base setting for fuel usage and use the load and throttle to determine consumption. There for cutting back fuel manually from its source will reduce your fuel consumption! I have found in past running that 5. to 7.5 volts will run everything just fine even with a load. The HHO makes up for the needed missing power to perform and run. You can run more HHO due the fact the o2's can't pick up the oxygen content !!!!!
The reduction in the tube is so that the added oxygen from the HHO is not increased by the intake!!

I was wondering what vehicle it is
I want to try the same thing I have a 2009 chev silverado I found some controller on ebay how many amps do i need
thanks