38mpg and idling issues

[sjrobinson]

I got back from a 225mile drive. The way back was 116 country/highway driving and I got 38mpg. But that could be off due to varying factors. I have questions about my idling issues though.

It seems that before I even have a loss in power I have a loss in RPMs. If I turn on the AC while in neutral the RPMs fluctuate and then the car stalls. This is after changing the voltages from what I stating in an earlier post to a slightly richer mixture. So I'm not too sure where to go from here. I will turn on the AC and change the o2 voltages accordingly.

However another issue is that I keep getting a P0130 code which is the upstream o2 sensor. While their voltages at the EFIE read 350 and 225 respectively, the ultragauge reads around 1.2 and .25. Why is my upstream sensor so much higher? And how do I solve the idling problems?

[myoldyourgold]

Turn everything off at idle solves this problem. One of the reasons you are getting the code is there is a large imbalance at idle. If that is not there you should have no problem. This varies vehicle to vehicle though and will depend on where you set your EFIE. Have you made changes to the MAP, IAT, or CTS?

[sjrobinson]

I did use a map sensor enhancer but it took it out. Turn everything off as in shut off my cell? and what about the EFIE? It seems I cannot run my cell and AC at the same time at idle. I'm worried the EFIE may have damaged something though.

[myoldyourgold]

I did use a map sensor enhancer but it took it out. Turn everything off as in shut off my cell? and what about the EFIE? It seems I cannot run my cell and AC at the same time at idle. I'm worried the EFIE may have damaged something though

Yes shut off everything EFIE and your reactor. You do not need any HHO at idle. You also do not need to lean things at idle. A lean idle is a very small savings if there is any measurable savings but because it confuses the computer it dose not save a thing but just the opposite.

I doubt the EFIE will have caused any damage. Just reset the computer by disconnecting the battery for 5 minutes and hold the disconnected cables together for a bit and start all over. Everything should revert to normal.

You might be drawing to many amps from your system. Lower the amp draw to your reactor. This should also help. Do not worry about making less HHO you are not leaning things out enough to worry about that.

[sjrobinson]

Ok, great. I got it.
Remember I drive a stick-
I notice that if I'm on the highway and I pop it into neutral, with the AC on it doesn't do anything. The EFIE and HHO combination are drawing too many amps I see. What do you recommend as a set up for that- would a relay for the EFIE work or something? Can the O2 sensors bypass the EFIE when it is not on? And would this be turning it off when I'm cruising down a hill on the highway or just when I'm doing city driving? I would really like to figure out how to get city driving gains without stalling all the time.

But as far as the digital EFIE for the upstream sensor- on my ultragauge it still shows 1.275 volts (not moving at all) and Im getting the p0130 code. Is it possible that the EFIE is defective? I have it connected to the ignition source and grounded and am able to read it at the test points with an ammeter but the car doesnt recognize it. Or is that all part of resetting the computer?

[myoldyourgold]

First when the EFIE is off it by passes all the signals just like it was stock. You can control both the EFIE and the reactor through a relay and switch. A lever switch can be attached to the throttle linkage in such away that it turns off the relay at idle. At idle both are off. Think about it if you are going down hill and using the engine as a brake you do not want or need HHO. Anytime you are over idle everything is on. Just controlling the O2's might not do much for you but give it a good try. In my experience you need to keep all the sensors in balance or the computer will eventually figure it out and do its own thing which will defeat what you are trying to do.

Once you start altering the signal your ultragauge might not be accurate. I would not trust it. I would go by the meter using the test points. What EFIE do you have?

[sjrobinson]

narrowband from this guy

http://myworld.ebay.com/bestefie/&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2754

The ammeter is actually close to what the ultragauge says for the downstream sensor. However, the ammeter says theres 350mv coming from the upstream yet its static at 1.275 volts on the gauge... although it did say that the p0130 was a pending code yet with 200+ miles of driving I didnt get a check engine light. Would that suggest that the o2 sensor is in fact working with the EFIE?
All this would be solved by resetting the ECU then?

And I was wondering about a relay for the EFIE to reduce the load on the battery. Would that work? If I understand relays correctly.

I'm also curious about making changes while the computer is bypassed just like if I were to advance the timing- which is another thing I have to do yet again I'm afraid of stalling. Would that be of benefit though- bypassing the ECU for an O2 voltage change?

[myoldyourgold]

narrowband from this guy

http://myworld.ebay.com/bestefie/&_t...84.m1439.l2754

The ammeter is actually close to what the ultragauge says for the downstream sensor. However, the ammeter says theres 350mv coming from the upstream yet its static at 1.275 volts on the gauge... although it did say that the p0130 was a pending code yet with 200+ miles of driving I didnt get a check engine light. Would that suggest that the o2 sensor is in fact working with the EFIE?
All this would be solved by resetting the ECU then?

And I was wondering about a relay for the EFIE to reduce the load on the battery. Would that work? If I understand relays correctly.

I'm also curious about making changes while the computer is bypassed just like if I were to advance the timing- which is another thing I have to do yet again I'm afraid of stalling. Would that be of benefit though- bypassing the ECU for an O2 voltage change?

The EFIE is one of the most stable ones in the market even though it is one of his older models it works just like it should. It will not be the EFIE's fault. The ultragauge has not detected the EFIE signal or you need to go through its setup while the EFIE is on. It still might not be able to detect it and will not give you accurate readings. All bets are off when you are using a scangauge with an EFIE in regards to the accuracy of the gauge. The EFIE uses almost no current so it will not help to put it on a relay. You need to check you alternator and see what it is rated at. I have found that many old alternators do not put out what they are rated at and fail with an extra 20 amp continuous draw of the reactor and just can not keep up.

You will solve a number of problems by resetting the ECU. You should have done that right at the start. It will give you better gains by doing that. Have you tried to clear the code using the ultragauge to see if it comes back?

Why do you want to advance the timing? It should work fine with the amount of HHO you are injecting at the stock setting. If everything was working with the HHO reactor not running then it is just the extra amp draw that is the problem. More HHO only works when you can lean out the engine more and that requires you controlling all the sensors. I would still suggest you cut back the amp draw of the reactor unless you want to replace your alternator with a 140 amp one or larger. I do not think that would be worth it.

[sjrobinson]

I reset the ECU and I am still having issues. Thing is, none of this happened until after I put in the EFIE. When I turn on the A/C with the EFIE on and the cell on the car will idle funny and eventually stall. With the EFIE off (but the o2 wires still running through it) The RPMs will idle funny but then go back to normal. But none of this has happened before.
I double checked to see if everything was all connected right and it appears so. When I test the points for the analog and digital potentiometers they read as they should. I had to change the upstream to 400mv and downstream to 150mv and the idling is still causing issues. On the highway everything is fine unless I hit a bump. Then I can feel the engine struggling for a moment.

So basically the biggest thing is that the car threatens to stall when I stop and idle. And its a relatively violent stall. And its something to do with the connections at the EFIE or the current traveling through it. Or maybe my car just does not like to be messed with like that. The map sensor enhancer didn't even work right.
It is possible its just defective? They seem like they're good quality but I could've just gotten a bad one.

Ill reset the Ultragauge to see if I can get the upstream readings though.

[myoldyourgold]

Does all this happen with the EFIE off but hooked up?

[sjrobinson]

Yes, except when its off the idling will go back to normal. But it does fluctuate when I turn on the AC. This has never happened before I put in the EFIE.

[myoldyourgold]

Turn off the EFIE at idle and the hho generator

[sjrobinson]

I did. I saw what you told me. The problem is still occurring thats my problem. Its not just at idle either. The engine is surging still although I thought the problem was resolved so thats why I went ahead with the EFIE. Cutting off the power to the EFIE does not bypass the downstream analog sensor though right? Id imagine thats the only reason why this could be occurring while the EFIE- and cell- are off.

When the engine needs more gas it does not get any. When the engine is at an idle and needs a consistent amount of gas it fluctuates. This all is now happening with everything on and with everything off. This has not happened before I put in the EFIE. I will be checking the fuel pressure to see if there is an existing issue there that has gotten worse with the tampering of the o2 sensors but turning the EFIE off does not work. In fact if I need to use it- like on the highway- I still have issues with power. And my sensors are set to 425 and 150mv. Thats much richer than the seller suggested at 350 and 200.

I did reset my Ultragauge and its now picking up the upstream sensor. But the readings for the downstream are at a low voltage, lower than usual.

[myoldyourgold]

Lets make this simple and due one step at a time. Disconnect the EFIE and put everything back to normal. NO EFIE or HHO. Reset the ECU. If some of the problems are still there then there is some problem with your vehicle. Once we establish that the vehicle is working properly then we can move forward.

How many amps does your HHO reactor draw after it is warmed up?

[sjrobinson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWPc3wVAh2M&feature=youtu.be

I put up a video. Sorry its sideways and very quiet. Read the description for more. This is how my engine is acting without the EFIE on but it is hooked up. So the sensors should be bypassing the EFIE.

I keep it at 10 amps. I have a PWM. Ill take the sensors out of the EFIE and reset the ECU. Ill let you know what happens.

I should mention that although the instructions say that the EFIE should have a blinking LED and turn on after 30 seconds, it turns on immediately and does not blink.

Gimme a half hour to update this, I just unplugged the battery and directly connected the wires for the sensors...

[sjrobinson]

I may sound repetitive but Ill start from the beginning to break this all down now that I just reset my car.

This all started as you can see in my other post with surging issues. I suspected just issues with sediment getting in the fuel system. Fuel injector cleaner appeared to have solved the problem.

Now I put in the EFIE- thinking the problem is solved and the car runs fine for a 100 mile (one way) trip I had. I averaged 28 mpg doing all country driving and the car was having idling issues. Once its up to speed it does fine.

On the way back I was having the same issues. Turned the voltage of the EFIE to a more rich mix and the car does better and I get 38mpg. However, after I still have the idling issues.

The one thing I have noticed is that the idling issues occur when I am moving very slow in neutral and the car is warming up. It is also when the car is under load.

The EFIE is supposed to bypass the o2 sensors when the engine is under load and when it first starts up. But this does not happen. The LEDs stay lit and do not change.

So the car is not getting enough gas when it needs it is the main issue.

Now to the current state...

I just reset the ECU and connected the o2 sensors. The downstream is reading low. .1 or lower. Sometimes a little higher. The upstream seems to be doing fine. I had to wait about 5 minutes for the car to adjust. The idling eventually smoothed out but its still a bit low.

This time, the cell and EFIE are taken out of the system.

I took it for a spin, trying the car at full throttle to see. It drove fine except for when I put it in neutral while not moving. Thats the thing. When the car is going very slow or not moving, it has idling issues. If I'm cruising, I don't see issues with the idle.

I suspect that the EFIE has woken, so to speak, a fuel system issue that I thought was resolved with the fuel injector cleaner. I will do a pressure test.

However, that still does not answer why the LEDs did not light up as specified.

Then again it could be an O2 and fuel system issue that had existed before. Despite that I have no check engine lights.

My cars not a happy camper...

[myoldyourgold]

First the problem of rough or poor idle is with the car not the EFIE. Make absolutely sure the EFIE is hooked up right. Usually when the LED's do not operate as specified in the manual then the EFIE is not hooked up right. The EFIE is not going to wake up anything as you put it. The rear O2 should be reading close to what you stated. Usually not over.9V but you have to leave some variance for meter accuracy. It is not uncommon for a car to be just enough out to see a poor idle but not enough to throw a code. These types of problems are not simple to diagnose unless you have a lot of experience with that particular make and model. You need to make sure the car is running like you want it first and then turn on the HHO system. There are so many things that could cause you problems like a rusty tank, water in the fuel, which are hard to diagnose. I am not suggesting that these two are the problem just an example. It could be anything from a weak fuel pump to a burnt valve. Get the car running without HHO first and then lets start over again.

You have not answered how many amps the HHO reactor is drawing. This is important information you must have.

[sjrobinson]

Burnt valve is what scares me. But I can hear inconsistencies in the exhaust even when the RPMs aren't fluctuating, making me suspect an issue with the exhaust and there is no check engine light.
So its both surging while accelerating and an idle that you can see in the videos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzxhvVw9eIA&feature=youtu.be
Thats the EFIE in action. Its not working right and everything is most definitely hooked up right.

The car was having surging issues before but those seemed to be resolved with fuel injector cleaner. So I continued with the HHO process. The problems had occurred again though.

I know I'm making the symptoms fit the cause but if it were burnt valves, putting an EFIE in- that is not functioning properly, meaning it does not shut off when I accelerate or the engine is under load and it does not have a 30 second delay upon start up- would cause the engine to run lean under demanding conditions thus burning the valves. Would that be possible?
I did monitor the coolant temp but that doesn't always reveal exhaust temp. My car always stays around 200 degrees.

The big thing here is my car ran fine- had some problems that appeared to be fixed and then it went downhill after I put the EFIE in. And I put it in right the first time. Now the EFIE is out and there are still issues that were resolved before I put the EFIE in.

[sjrobinson]

So someone mentioned it could be electrolyte in the system.
It doesn't answer exactly why my o2 sensors are now going crazy- or it could... I'm not too sure. And the EFIE may have just been defective.

I'm going to see if the electrolyte is the issue since thats the simplest. I should hope. How do I flush the system or get it out if there it? Or should I just wash the manifold and IAC with carb cleaner?

[myoldyourgold]

Electrolyte getting into the throttle body would give you a sticky throttle. You can look in there and see if it is all white. If it is use some carburetor cleaner to clean it off and make sure it is operating smoothly. Best to remove it to clean it. I do not think that is the problem based on the symptoms. I am still doubtful that the EFIE was hooked up right. You seem to be sure it is though. Maybe post a picture of your hook up to the EFIE. That might help us.

[sjrobinson]

Well I feel like a jackass. But this whole experience has been about learning.
The surging issues were from the map sensor wire. When I took the enhancer out I didn't connect the wires enough and they came loose (but not completely apart) coincidentally on the trip I took right after putting in the EFIE.

I suspect there were fuel injection issues before as well which was an isolated incident that caused the same result.

Simplest things, and I gotta remember that not all instances are connected

But the EFIE was in fact connected properly. I went through the wiring four times. This afternoon I tried it all again just for kicks. Thats when I took that video. I have been speaking with the seller, he is having me send it back to be tested because there is not much else that can be done if it was hooked up correctly.

I did check the electrolyte as well. There is residue in the air intake pipe but it stops before the throttle body so it doesn't even reach the IAC. For that though, I think I asked this before, but I'm on a budget, Would a check valve suffice for preventing the electrolyte from climbing up into there? I'm looking for something simple and inexpensive.

[sjrobinson]

Im not sure if you saw the video in the link but thats the EFIE all hooked up and you can see with my voltmeter than its working fine there. Just the LEDs don't light up. But the wires are all going to the right spot.