Shim cell design - take a look

[Shane Jackson]

Ok guys here is the design I spent a ton of time and money working on:

http://www.facetrough.com/images/shim-front.jpg

http://www.facetrough.com/images/shim-back.jpg
(one note, the white shims are only shown to show detail that will not show up in a picture of a black shim. Also they look a little warped but that is due to the fact they are a soft flexible material used for an experiment production shims are hard plastic)

As you can see the design is actually very simple but very effective at limiting current leakage. By eliminating the holes in the plate that are exposed to solution, current leakage is significantly reduced. Is it totally eliminated? NO. The channels still provide a path for current leakage to take place but increases the distance (resistance).

My goal with this design was to make something that would be very efficient but relatively inexpensive to build. As such I will be offering the parts for sale for the following prices:

Shims $3each
Gaskets $3.50each
Power plates $4.50each
Plates $4each
Endplates $15each

That would put the price of a 7 plate cell at:
Shims $3 x 7
Gaskets $3.50 x 8
Power plate $4.50 x 2
Plates $4 x 5
Endplates $15 x 2
Total $108 + shipping and the cost of hardware.

As for MMW, let's say a conservative 5.5. I am not a big fan of advertising MMW's as everyone will measure differently.

If anyone is interested in some PM me.

Shane

[reggaerican]

thats interesting looking Shane
I would love to see one assembled and bench tested

[Darrell]

Shane If I wanted to buy enough materials to build a 13 plate setup, is there a way to make a solid shim for the center plate to devide the 2 cell groups? Also wondering will there be a couple differnt size plates or kits?

Let me know. Thanks "D"

[Shane Jackson]

You could but it would be more trouble than it would be worth. As for more sizes, I will make any size you would like.... the mold just cost a couple $1k..... LOL yea no joke. I spent a lot having these made....

I will do a video when I get time.

Shane

[hhofox]

Hey Shane, great job man! I instantly understood how the shims worked when I looked a them because I came up with the same idea in 2011. That was back when I was working with 4" washers as my only source of stainless steel. I planned to plug the center hole of the washers and use rubber gaskets as my cut-outs/holders.
Actually, I still have the parts sitting there, but I never assembled them because I found a new source of stainless steel which has been working well for me ever since then.
It's good to see the plan being funded and materializing in this manner. All the best with the setup.

[reggaerican]

Ok so I saw it assembled in your other thread, she is a beauty,,

[Quebecker]

Shane

There is the input and output holes but what is the 3rd hole

http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/1192/shaneg.jpg

Regards

[Shane Jackson]

Power connection. The cell in the picture didn't have the power plate installed. :)

[koya1893]

Short internet connection, Shane are those similar to REK's design? Should be back in mainland soon.

[Shane Jackson]

Same idea, total different design.

[aceras624]

wheres the video? id like to see more about these things so I can poke holes in your theories ;) jk

[RustyLugNut]

Same idea, total different design.

I think several people were thinking along the same lines. We have a somewhat similar design from 1998. But Shane has gone the next mile to produce a marketable design.

For those who want a smaller design, I guess you will have to pay Shane to redesign a smaller unit footprint.

For those that want a bigger design, you could simply keep stacking more units along with the center plates to get a more capable generator.

Good job Shane.

Now let's support his efforts and do a few builds using this framework.

[Motocross]

Shane,

Great design. I just started a few months ago and figured out pretty quickly that holes in the plates exposed to the electrolyte really made the cell in-efficient. I built one with external supply for electrolyte and gas out put for each cell and got some great efficiency. However, it leaks and is not a good practical design. I really like what you have done.

With a 7 plate design, each plate having 3" diameter of useable surface area I was able to achieve an efficiency of 2.493 Watts per Liter per Hour and a gas production rate of 0.532 Liters per Minute (13.27 volts, 6 amps)

With a 13 plate design, each plate having 3" diameter of useable surface area I was able to achieve an efficiency of 2.240 Watts per Liter per Hour and a gas production rate of 1.18 Liters per Minute (13.23 volts, 12 amps)

At these voltage levels and current draw there is very little heating at all.

Anyway to get to the point. I think it would be worth the effort to be able to stack a series of 7 plate cells. My data is showing that there is more efficiency in doing so and the gas production is higher as well. I was really surprised by this.

cheers,
Greg

[Stevo]

Fcking BRAVO, Shane! Nice job is an understatement for sure! I'm still loving that green PWM you built and you can bet I'll be hitting you up for this as well.

For anyone that has been living under a rock; this guy is a rock star ^

[Shane Jackson]

For those who want a smaller design, I guess you will have to pay Shane to redesign a smaller unit footprint.



Dont HAVE to but I will happly if anyone is interested.




Good job Shane.

Now let's support his efforts and do a few builds using this framework.

Thanks for the support.


Fcking BRAVO, Shane! Nice job is an understatement for sure! I'm still loving that green PWM you built and you can bet I'll be hitting you up for this as well.

For anyone that has been living under a rock; this guy is a rock star ^

rock star..... lol... NOT

I will try to get a video up at some point.... just been so busy with other things I have not had time.

Shane

[RustyLugNut]

Shane,

Great design. I just started a few months ago and figured out pretty quickly that holes in the plates exposed to the electrolyte really made the cell in-efficient. I built one with external supply for electrolyte and gas out put for each cell and got some great efficiency. However, it leaks and is not a good practical design. I really like what you have done.

With a 7 plate design, each plate having 3" diameter of useable surface area I was able to achieve an efficiency of 2.493 Watts per Liter per Hour and a gas production rate of 0.532 Liters per Minute (13.27 volts, 6 amps)

With a 13 plate design, each plate having 3" diameter of useable surface area I was able to achieve an efficiency of 2.240 Watts per Liter per Hour and a gas production rate of 1.18 Liters per Minute (13.23 volts, 12 amps)

At these voltage levels and current draw there is very little heating at all.

Anyway to get to the point. I think it would be worth the effort to be able to stack a series of 7 plate cells. My data is showing that there is more efficiency in doing so and the gas production is higher as well. I was really surprised by this.

cheers,
Greg

And good observation. Try to flesh out your work to the point more people can reproduce and verify your results.

[Motocross]

Ok guys here is the design I spent a ton of time and money working on:

http://www.facetrough.com/images/shim-front.jpg

http://www.facetrough.com/images/shim-back.jpg
(one note, the white shims are only shown to show detail that will not show up in a picture of a black shim. Also they look a little warped but that is due to the fact they are a soft flexible material used for an experiment production shims are hard plastic)

As you can see the design is actually very simple but very effective at limiting current leakage. By eliminating the holes in the plate that are exposed to solution, current leakage is significantly reduced. Is it totally eliminated? NO. The channels still provide a path for current leakage to take place but increases the distance (resistance).

My goal with this design was to make something that would be very efficient but relatively inexpensive to build. As such I will be offering the parts for sale for the following prices:

Shims $3each
Gaskets $3.50each
Power plates $4.50each
Plates $4each
Endplates $15each


That would put the price of a 7 plate cell at:
Shims $3 x 7
Gaskets $3.50 x 8
Power plate $4.50 x 2
Plates $4 x 5
Endplates $15 x 2
Total $108 + shipping and the cost of hardware.

As for MMW, let's say a conservative 5.5. I am not a big fan of advertising MMW's as everyone will measure differently.

If anyone is interested in some PM me.

Shane

I've sent you a couple messages, but got no reply. Are you interested inselling?

[Motocross]

And good observation. Try to flesh out your work to the point more people can reproduce and verify your results.

Thanks for the feedback Rusty.

I bought one of the 4 inch designs like the one shown here. http://www.hho2u.com/HHO_DRY_CELL.html

Being that I enjoy tinkering I took it apart and experimented.

The last build I did was with 3" diameter o-rings 3/16" thick. All the plates were replaced with solid (i.e. no holes to flow electrolyte) 316L SS. In order to get the electrolyte into each cell I took the ink reservoir (will call it "straw" from now on) from a cheap ball point pen and stuck it through the O-ring on each cell towards the bottom to deliver the electrolyte. Similarly I stuck another one at the top to allow the generated gas to flow out. This forced most of the current to go through the solid plates and created a high resistive path that goes through the staw where the electrolyte is delivered over to the next cell(s) via a common 5/8" diameter tube. I got similar results regardless if this path was 6 inches or 18 inches between cells. I did this for each cell in the 7 plate and 13 plate unit and ran several tests at different voltage/current levels and measured the temp of the cell as well as the gas output. I got some really great results as shown earlier. This was good for a bench setup, but it would not work very well if I were to install this in a car or truck as this unit has a tendency to leak with very little provocation. When I saw Shane's design I was like "cool" he just saved me a bunch of work that I have validated is a pretty awesome design.

I should also mention that I started with a two plate configuration and turned up the voltage slowly until I saw the amp draw jump, and it did jump from a few tenths of amps to 6 amps as soon as I hit 2.2 volts. I guess this is the magic voltage for 316L SS.

At this voltage and current draw there was virtually no heat generated and this held true for the 7 & 13 plate configuration as well for an input voltage of 13.2v (2.2v * 6 = 13.2v). It always stayed under 100 degrees F.

I will try to post a picture later. Hope this was informative.

Cheers,
Greg

[RustyLugNut]

I should also mention that I started with a two plate configuration and turned up the voltage slowly until I saw the amp draw jump, and it did jump from a few tenths of amps to 6 amps as soon as I hit 2.2 volts. I guess this is the magic voltage for 316L SS.

This is very good work! It amazes me how few people do this simple experiment to get the baseline for a single cell. My cells use tubes within tubes, but the operating principle is still the same. Using super saturated solutions of NaOH as the electrolyte, at STP I got 2.3 volts before my 304 SS started "waking up". The amperage jumped from .3 amps to 6 amps. Good correlation with your work!

What we are seeing is the "over-voltage" needed to overcome the "resistance" if you may, of the stainless steel. At room temperature, electrolysis starts at 1.23 v, but at a very slow rate as to be practically zero. More potential is needed to really get any significant production, but, our SS plates and tubes are not ideal. Nickel needs less over-voltage and platinum can get going at about 1.45v if I recall correctly. I run my 304 SS electrodes as 6 cell series at the max so that 13.8 v alternators can run them at the required 2.3 v apiece. However, they would only run at 6 amps through the cell series, so, I run hot water between the tubes which adds outside heat to the system and allows current to climb past 15 amps. Of course, to keep the electrolyte from boiling, the tubes are allowed to pressurize to 1 atm much like a radiator. The complexity is worth the gain in efficiency.



Thanks for the feedback Rusty.

I bought one of the 4 inch designs like the one shown here. http://www.hho2u.com/HHO_DRY_CELL.html

Being that I enjoy tinkering I took it apart and experimented.

The last build I did was with 3" diameter o-rings 3/16" thick. All the plates were replaced with solid (i.e. no holes to flow electrolyte) 316L SS. In order to get the electrolyte into each cell I took the ink reservoir (will call it "straw" from now on) from a cheap ball point pen and stuck it through the O-ring on each cell towards the bottom to deliver the electrolyte. Similarly I stuck another one at the top to allow the generated gas to flow out. This forced most of the current to go through the solid plates and created a high resistive path that goes through the staw where the electrolyte is delivered over to the next cell(s) via a common 5/8" diameter tube. I got similar results regardless if this path was 6 inches or 18 inches between cells. I did this for each cell in the 7 plate and 13 plate unit and ran several tests at different voltage/current levels and measured the temp of the cell as well as the gas output. I got some really great results as shown earlier. This was good for a bench setup, but it would not work very well if I were to install this in a car or truck as this unit has a tendency to leak with very little provocation. When I saw Shane's design I was like "cool" he just saved me a bunch of work that I have validated is a pretty awesome design.


At this voltage and current draw there was virtually no heat generated and this held true for the 7 & 13 plate configuration as well for an input voltage of 13.2v (2.2v * 6 = 13.2v). It always stayed under 100 degrees F.

I will try to post a picture later. Hope this was informative.

Cheers,
Greg

I too wanted to see how much the ion leakage affected our so called "dry cell" configuration and to see what could be done to minimize it. Your "pen tube" set up, corroborates my similar experiment.

I used a rectangular acrylic box with 6, 25x50 mm 304 SS plates spaced 3mm apart and sealed on sides and bottom with silicon. Drilled passages allowed 2mm SS tubes to be epoxied in and different lengths of vinyl tubing looped from one cell to the next. A few drops of detergent was added to the super saturated NaOH to produce bubbles of HHO. This allowed me to view the production as a "head" of soap on the top of each cell.

With 3 cm loops, the production looked like

O. . . O
OO. OO
OOOOO

A traditional bell curve. Not until the loops were longer than a meter was there enough loop resistance to urge the ions to go to the plates and flatten the bell curve. By putting holes in your plates, you will get a bell curve production. But, by adding more "neutral plates" you can still increase your efficiency. I have decided to use true isolated cells. They are more complex, but the efficiency is greater and the ability to calculate my hydrogen production from the simple measurement of amperage is invaluable.

Keep up your good work. I like your clarity of thought and your disciplined experimentation.

[myoldyourgold]

I know this is controversial but I think it needs to be noted. Electrolysis has been observed at .75 volts and by more than one reliable source. Very little but there just the same. It is propitiatory and no permission has been granted to publish details. It is of no use except in testing various plate materials, port location/size and conditioning procedures where one is trying to increase production per amp. This in no way will achieve over Faraday. It does give the illusion of it though under certain circumstances. This is only because the amp draw when measured in the normal method is inaccurate. It will always take x amps to to make x HHO.

There is so much more to electrolysis than just a cathode and anode per cell. Current leakage is a problem that can never be fully eliminated with a flow though series reactor. It can be limited and taken advantage of though. You need to think out side of the box though. To understand this more measure the voltage in the reservoir which should be about the same as the average cell or slightly less. I will be very interested in if any of you will understand where this leads to. New discoveries or comprehension of old facts is what makes life so interesting.

Here is another well designed reactor limiting current leakage and if all 6 cells have separate reservoirs then possibly eliminating it all together.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BYKrCqmaYg&feature=plcp