Magnetic (Ruskin) Filter

[Havens78]

Here is what I have come up with for my Ruskin Filter, 13 dollars at Westlake and 25 dollars worth of very strong magnets. Will fit perfectly in either of my vehicles just before the injection point.

http://www.google.com/patents/US3228868

Magnets are 1/2"x1/2"x2"

[BioFarmer93]

Havens-
I'm glad you found the para to ortho converter plans and made one... But now, cut it open, buy new fittings and get someone to help you put it back together.:(
Not insulting your intelligence here- anyone could have missed it. The helper is needed to ride herd on those powerful azz magnets when you rebuild it with the LIKE POLES facing each other- yeah, in repulsion mode my friend.:eek: When I built mine I almost had to invent a new technology to get the little bassards stuffed in the inner tube to stay in place while the glue dried! Best of luck!:D

[Havens78]

Bio,

The poles are facing each other in the tube, I simply didn't take any pictures as I was putting it together myself. I just didn't think there would be a need for cursing in pictures as i tried to smash them all down there. Note to self, next time don't buy magnets with 96lbs of strength for this project.

In other news, if you lose your grip on magnet #6 in this set up it will launch itself 12 feet across the room.


Edit: Hey i did take a picture! Note that i have 2 magnets left to place into the tube and the 4th magnet is already not wanting to cooperate.

[aceras624]

i just read somewhere (having trouble finding it now) that the hotter the Hydrogen the higher percentage of Ortho. If this is true, why bother with the magnets to maintaing Ortho? seems to me that the hot engine we're feeding the HHO into would do more than the magnets ever could, no?

[Havens78]

i just read somewhere (having trouble finding it now) that the hotter the Hydrogen the higher percentage of Ortho. If this is true, why bother with the magnets to maintaing Ortho? seems to me that the hot engine we're feeding the HHO into would do more than the magnets ever could, no?

The magnets re-align the hydrogen molecules to create a higher percentage of ortho so that they are running in the same direction, heat does help the process but if I recall what I have on file i'll never see the needed temperatures in my engine compartment needed for that.

[BioFarmer93]

Bio,

The poles are facing each other in the tube, I simply didn't take any pictures as I was putting it together myself. I just didn't think there would be a need for cursing in pictures as i tried to smash them all down there. Note to self, next time don't buy magnets with 96lbs of strength for this project.

In other news, if you lose your grip on magnet #6 in this set up it will launch itself 12 feet across the room.


Edit: Hey i did take a picture! Note that i have 2 magnets left to place into the tube and the 4th magnet is already not wanting to cooperate.

HAhaha! THAT sure looks familiar! I had a couple of those launches also... OK, well, seven.:o

[iger13]

Bio, will it help in diesel engine too?

[D.O.G]

i just read somewhere (having trouble finding it now) that the hotter the Hydrogen the higher percentage of Ortho. If this is true, why bother with the magnets to maintaing Ortho? seems to me that the hot engine we're feeding the HHO into would do more than the magnets ever could, no?

If nothing else is converting the orthohydrogen to parra (for example, the presence of oxygen), room temperatures should produce the "maximum" percentage of ortho (75%) to parra (25%).
Higher temperatures can't increase the ortho percentage past this point, but it may help to keep it at that "maximum" in the presence of things like oxygen.

The Ruskin converter, however, is supposed to be able to push the ortho percentage past that 75% point.

[BioFarmer93]

Bio, will it help in diesel engine too?

Yes it will my friend.. We have not heard much from you for a while- are you well & busy?

[hhofox]

Hi, I hope that I am not flogging a dead horse here, but what are you hoping to accomplish with this magnetic filter, and how so?

[Madsceintist]

Hi, I hope that I am not flogging a dead horse here, but what are you hoping to accomplish with this magnetic filter, and how so?

Sometimes I'm slow......... But ......What?:confused: Short thread reads easily.:D

[hhofox]

Sorry about any ambiguity. I know the ultimate goal is to save gas, but how does this device work in conjunction with HHO? Is it the kind that promotes the formation of higher quality HHO in greater quantities? If so, how does it do it -by way of increasing molecular volatility?

[Havens78]

Sorry about any ambiguity. I know the ultimate goal is to save gas, but how does this device work in conjunction with HHO? Is it the kind that promotes the formation of higher quality HHO in greater quantities? If so, how does it do it -by way of increasing molecular volatility?

Yes, we're trying to create a better quality gas with this filter by changing the ways the atoms within the hydrogen move. "Two types of molecular hydrogen (ortho and para) are known. These differ in the magnetic interactions of the protons due to the spinning motions of the protons. In ortho-hydrogen, the spins of both protons are aligned in the same direction—that is, they are parallel. In para-hydrogen, the spins are aligned in opposite directions and are therefore antiparallel. The relationship of spin alignments determines the magnetic properties of the atoms."

The patent has some information on how parahydrogen differs from orthohydrogen. I'll dig up some more information and post it later when i have some more time.

[Havens78]

I haven't bought this article but what you can see is fairly interesting.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360319911023500

The file is too big for me to post here, but the link below has a great article on the ortho conversion process. http://reduceyourfuelbill.com.au/forum/index.php?topic=444.msg3086#msg3086

[aceras624]

Sorry about any ambiguity. I know the ultimate goal is to save gas, but how does this device work in conjunction with HHO? Is it the kind that promotes the formation of higher quality HHO in greater quantities? If so, how does it do it -by way of increasing molecular volatility?

dont sweat it. Ive seen this "ortho para" stuff a million times and noone has been able to actually say how/why it works/helps :) I assume its because one burns better than the other but havent seen any tests to prove it. Im not saying its not true. I just wish every time i see this, i wasnt redirected to a huge article that you would have to read the entirety of to find what we're looking for:eek:

[Havens78]

dont sweat it. Ive seen this "ortho para" stuff a million times and noone has been able to actually say how/why it works/helps :) I assume its because one burns better than the other but havent seen any tests to prove it. Im not saying its not true. I just wish every time i see this, i wasnt redirected to a huge article that you would have to read the entirety of to find what we're looking for:eek:


I wish there was an easy way to say "Hey this just works better", still tons of testing needs to be done. If i can get time to throw everything back in my wifes car tonight i can start doing some tests again to see how it performs with the new conditioned gas.

[Madsceintist]

dont sweat it. Ive seen this "ortho para" stuff a million times and noone has been able to actually say how/why it works/helps :) I assume its because one burns better than the other but havent seen any tests to prove it. Im not saying its not true. I just wish every time i see this, i wasnt redirected to a huge article that you would have to read the entirety of to find what we're looking for:eek:

Not to be so straight forward but if you don't like to read long articles you may not get far enough to make the difference you really want !!!! I guess you just have to believe that it makes a considerable difference if done correct. Or don't try, up to you.

[hhofox]

Thanks for the replies. Actually, I did read the patent for a similar device, but that one was developed for the propulsion of missiles.
I do recall that one type of hydrogen burns better than the other, and that too high of a temp makes the better type diminish.
To get this device straight though; you are simply building a magnetic sleeve which will surround a tube through which HHO is passing, right? This magnetic field will then act on the HHO, making more of the higher quality hydrogen, resulting in a better reaction inside the engine. Thus, power and efficiency should be increased, while temp. and emissions are reduced. In the end, you should have a better running engine and much better mileage.
Is my take on this correct?

BTW.. how long must this sleeve be? Can't I just use speaker magnets which already have holes in them to make the device? If so, then I should be able to build one quite easily right? Haven't I heard of the same device for gasoline reactions?

[Havens78]

I do recall that one type of hydrogen burns better than the other, and that too high of a temp makes the better type diminish.
To get this device straight though; you are simply building a magnetic sleeve which will surround a tube through which HHO is passing, right? This magnetic field will then act on the HHO, making more of the higher quality hydrogen, resulting in a better reaction inside the engine. Thus, power and efficiency should be increased, while temp. and emissions are reduced. In the end, you should have a better running engine and much better mileage.
Is my take on this correct?



Nail on head, you've got the basic idea of it.

Not sure if speaker magnets will be strong enough, you'll need the gas to pass as close to the magnets as possible and in a perfect world a way to speed up the gas. This is why i used a 1/2x1/2x2 rectangular magnet inside a 3/4" pvc pipe, very little space around the magnets and its still strong enough to hold everything together.

These are the magnets i used.
http://www.magnet4less.com/product_info.php?cPath=5&products_id=494

[iger13]

Yes it will my friend.. We have not heard much from you for a while- are you well & busy?

Thank you, Gus. I'm ok, just a bit in survival mode.

[Madsceintist]

BTW.. how long must this sleeve be? Can't I just use speaker magnets which already have holes in them to make the device? If so, then I should be able to build one quite easily right? Haven't I heard of the same device for gasoline reactions?

Yes your on target.

The length will vary depending on the tube size. The smaller the tube the shorter it can be but say for 3/16 tube you should use a winding no shorter than 10 inches. If your using magnets instead than you want a very narrow passage by the magnets to force the the molecules as close to the field as possible. I have speaker magnets at my outlet for the HHO from the reactor now, a stack of 8 currently, but I'm continuously changing to get the lack of power under heavy load and acceleration that I'm missing.

If anyone has ever had the elementary school science project where you took a simple piece of metal tube or thick wire and electrolyzed it to make a magnet, then you can make a perfect magnetic rod for the inside of just about any tubing. You don't want to obstruct the passage but you do want to have a narrow passage OR a very strong field(which could interfere with some signals of your reference sensors).

[aceras624]

Not to be so straight forward but if you don't like to read long articles you may not get far enough to make the difference you really want !!!! I guess you just have to believe that it makes a considerable difference if done correct. Or don't try, up to you.

ive read PLENTY. I just wish someone could definitively make the statement of what exactly we're trying to do with the ortho para thing without refering to an article. Noone seems knowledgable enough to do this

[BioFarmer93]

Magnets jostle the electron spin of the H atoms in the parahydrogen (and ortho) as the gas flows over the powerful magnetic fields. The fields induce the electrons of the atoms of the para- molecules (H2) to shift their orbits a bit so they circle their atoms in the same direction. Now that they look the same, they are no longer attracted to each other for a while, (ortho state) but entropy says that nothing remains constant (even though some things seem to) and these two will eventually hook up with another before too long (para state).

[Havens78]

I'm going to be experimenting with different lengths of these devices in the fall, i'm seeing great results so far with the 12" filter i made. My reactor is only producing approximately .8 lpm at 17 amps and i'm having to redo my electronic controls due to the fact that i'm making too much. Maybe there is a sweet spot in filter length that will help to double the output, it certainly seems like that is happening right now. No real way to test it though.


Havens

[hhofox]

Hmmm... no real way to test it huh?
How about driving the car while taking note of how it performs and feels. After that remove the filter and do the same run again, checking to see if there is any difference? It's not the best way, but you should be able to feel a difference, right?

I think that running the HHO unit cooler does have its merits (as others have stated). My unit doesn't seem to pass 4 AMPS. Actually, even when hot, it didn't pass 3.5. It makes approx .3LPM for my 1.3L engine, and it seems to be doing wonders for it. Well, I do have HCS connected to it as well, but the car performs well even when that system is on the fritz.

Check out my "Perfect HHO Test Bed" thread for more info if you want to.

Seems like I am in the less=more camp now huh?

[Havens78]

After a couple week of driving the new magnet unit setup + ruskin filter has not improved the mileage I have been seeing. I'm making .9 lpm at 18 amps and then running the gas through the 12" ruskin filter. At first I thought that it was the fact that my volo chip couldn't understand the new gas, but after driving the car these 2 weeks I'll admit that i have been enjoying the new power the engine is giving me.

So yes, the filter is improving the quality of the gas to a point that i'm feeling more power in the engine at .9 lpm than i ever did at 1.6 lpm. Can the length of these filters have the ability to double the quality of the gas we're producing when combined with magnets built into the cells? Meaning can we reduce our numbers down to 1/4 a liter of gas per liter of displacement in gas engines and 1/2 a liter per displacement in diesel engines. This question still stands to be tested, but i'm posing the question to all of you.

Larry has been experimenting with large magnets, and I think some of us should take up his ideas and run with them as well. 2 or 3 of us are sure to come up with more ideas than just one of us right? I'll be working on this in the next few months, but my funds are on hold for now as i have tuition coming up next month for the fall semester.

Has anyone had any luck gluing 1/2" acrylic flat against each other and then being able to tap fittings and drill down in between them?

[aceras624]

another question. If im going to do this Ruskin filter, should i just make one 12" one? or would a few of them be better? is 12 inches enough?

[BioFarmer93]

another question. If im going to do this Ruskin filter, should i just make one 12" one? or would a few of them be better? is 12 inches enough?

-depends on who you ask... Ba-dom-CHihhh;):D

[BioFarmer93]

another question. If im going to do this Ruskin filter, should i just make one 12" one? or would a few of them be better? is 12 inches enough?

On a more serious note.. If you make just one using the ratios outlined in his patent, a place it immediately prior to the point of injection into the intake air, it is all you need.

[reggaerican]

this is cool its like a homiopathic healing practice my girlfriend uses on her patients for realigning the cells of the body...
cool, thanks for the thread..

cause im new to hho I have a ? for you Havens you said now you are only getting .9 lpm as opposed to 1.6lpm do you think the increase in power is due to the fact since you are using less hho and more gas now? or dou you truely believe the filter is helping?

[Madsceintist]

this is cool its like a homiopathic healing practice my girlfriend uses on her patients for realigning the cells of the body...
cool, thanks for the thread..

cause im new to hho I have a ? for you Havens you said now you are only getting .9 lpm as opposed to 1.6lpm do you think the increase in power is due to the fact since you are using less hho and more gas now? or dou you truely believe the filter is helping?


Its about the quality of the HHO, verses gasoline consumption. HHO isn't just HHO! You have good and you have usable or poor quality HHO. Filter, dry, polarize!

[aceras624]

-depends on who you ask... Ba-dom-CHihhh;):D

-----------
nice ;)

[reggaerican]

Its about the quality of the HHO, verses gasoline consumption. HHO isn't just HHO! You have good and you have usable or poor quality HHO. Filter, dry, polarize!

thanks madscientist that helps. sometimes I feel like im asking not so smart of questions. So I am greatfull for straight forward answers instead of negative comments like some might give..

just one more thing for me to build I guess. geeez this is the funnest and most expensive hobby I got myself into yet..

[Havens78]

I have a ? for you Havens you said now you are only getting .9 lpm as opposed to 1.6lpm do you think the increase in power is due to the fact since you are using less hho and more gas now? or dou you truely believe the filter is helping?

Yes I believe the filter is helping. I was working with a somewhat poor design that I purchased before i found this site and have been working to improve the cell. Going from 5 neutrals to 6 is more than likely the cause for my lost production, but with the filter installed I am 'feeling' the difference at my foot and that is something that hasn't happened since i installed the unit in march of 2011.

I plan on building one of these filters for any unit i install or that I help install, aligning the hydrogen is a good thing for what we want to do. I think i built this one for 35 bucks, yes its an expensive hobby but a very fun one.

[reggaerican]

Thank you Havens for your positive testimony. And for the price sounds like a no brainer. I hope more people catch on o this thread..

[Madsceintist]

thanks madscientist that helps. sometimes I feel like im asking not so smart of questions. So I am greatfull for straight forward answers instead of negative comments like some might give..

just one more thing for me to build I guess. geeez this is the funnest and most expensive hobby I got myself into yet..


Its expensive until you get where you expect to be then its worth it more then you can imagine.

[reggaerican]

Its expensive until you get where you expect to be then its worth it more then you can imagine.

and I sure cant wait to get there...

[RustyLugNut]

What is this "good HHO" everyone speaks of? The oxygen pair is the same in any case. So, you must be referring to the spin of the hydrogen pairing. How is the exceedingly small energy difference affecting the combustion dynamics?

[Havens78]

What is this "good HHO" everyone speaks of? The oxygen pair is the same in any case. So, you must be referring to the spin of the hydrogen pairing. How is the exceedingly small energy difference affecting the combustion dynamics?

Yes, we're talking about the spin of the hydrogen and that we can effectively manipulate the spin with a magnetic field just prior to injection into the vehicle's intake system. Unfortunately i can't give you scientific data on the combustion dynamic, but i can feel the difference in how my engine is handling now.

[RustyLugNut]

Yes, we're talking about the spin of the hydrogen and that we can effectively manipulate the spin with a magnetic field just prior to injection into the vehicle's intake system.

How do you know you have effectively manipulated the spin? How do you know the 75% ortho hydrogen you are trying to create is not in actuality being reduced to para hydrogen? I am assuming the somewhat more energetic ortho is your target, correct? Why even go through this exercise when you are already 3/4 of the way there? The patent linked to at the start of this thread is not one that is used in industry. It probably could work seeing as the spin conversion is proportional to the mass, velocity and magnetic field intensity. Liquid hydrogen pumped at Kilograms per cubic meter and meters per second, in fields created by electromagnets many times more intense than what you can create with the best rare earth magnets is used to . . . get this . . . eliminate ortho from the mix and convert the majority of the liquid hydrogen to para hydrogen. This is to stabilize the liquid for long term storage at low temperatures.


Unfortunately i can't give you scientific data on the combustion dynamic, but i can feel the difference in how my engine is handling now.

How you "feel" is fine in love and spicy foods. However, you need to quantify, if you are to call this a scientific discussion. Even if it is the most basic of measurements - indirect or direct.

[reggaerican]

I was just doing some research on Meyers work and he used similar method only way more advanced using electo magnets and pulsing.
Fascinating work people have ben trying to replicate his work for years..

[RustyLugNut]

I was just doing some research on Meyers work and he used similar method only way more advanced using electo magnets and pulsing.
Fascinating work people have ben trying to replicate his work for years..

Meyer's work is in question. Brilliant work cannot be hidden forever. Believe me when I say that there are just as brilliant people working towards similar goals. People will point to Tesla and his work. However, his work was reproduced and much of it went into use. The physical world is open to everyone! You cannot hide your "secrets" for long. Meyer's work will either be validated or debunked as fraud. So far, it looks as if he was a fraud. People will feel angry and hurt by this statement. But, no one has been able to replicate even the basic principles he supposedly built his devices around. There is no magic here. It has to be based on good science. It is up to all the Meyer's followers to prove him correct, and so far, I have seen nothing. And I have done my own research. And I have physically inspected several "working Meyer's devices" whose builders overlooked some basic points and fooled themselves.

[BioFarmer93]

How do you know you have effectively manipulated the spin?
Besides the many peer reviewed papers published on it (please do your own searches, I'm pressed for time this evening) the fact that Simon Ruskin was awarded a utility patent. This means that the mechanism has to and does work as outlined in the application, not just look like it probably would.


How do you know the 75% ortho hydrogen you are trying to create is not in actuality being reduced to para hydrogen?
How do you know the sun will rise tomorrow? -You don't, but you assign the likelihood a high probability based on long term observation of similar action.


I am assuming the somewhat more energetic ortho is your target, correct? Why even go through this exercise when you are already 3/4 of the way there?
Sh1ts and giggles? Why not? Nothing is harmed by doing so.. Does it matter?


The patent linked to at the start of this thread is not one that is used in industry.
Which means exactly what? Is this statement intended to imply that simply because it is not the method used in industry that it is not an effective method? It received a utility patent, remember? It serves our non-industrial use effectively and economically, and that is all we require of it.



It probably could work seeing as the spin conversion is proportional to the mass, velocity and magnetic field intensity. Liquid hydrogen pumped at Kilograms per cubic meter and meters per second, in fields created by electromagnets many times more intense than what you can create with the best rare earth magnets is used to . . . get this . . . eliminate ortho from the mix and convert the majority of the liquid hydrogen to para hydrogen. This is to stabilize the liquid for long term storage at low temperatures.

Just so- a large scale industrial method utilizing electrically induced paramagnetic sites in non ferrous metals at liquid hydrogen temperatures. Very different from the Ruskin method.


How you "feel" is fine in love and spicy foods. However, you need to quantify, if you are to call this a scientific discussion. Even if it is the most basic of measurements - indirect or direct.
Upon re-reading his comments, I can find no instance where he even implied that it was a scientific discussion

[Madsceintist]

Upon re-reading his comments, I can find no instance where he even implied that it was a scientific discussion
Just took out the rest, but this stands for all of it......................................

GET' EM BIO !!:cool:

[Havens78]

How do you know you have effectively manipulated the spin? How do you know the 75% ortho hydrogen you are trying to create is not in actuality being reduced to para hydrogen? I am assuming the somewhat more energetic ortho is your target, correct? Why even go through this exercise when you are already 3/4 of the way there? The patent linked to at the start of this thread is not one that is used in industry. It probably could work seeing as the spin conversion is proportional to the mass, velocity and magnetic field intensity. Liquid hydrogen pumped at Kilograms per cubic meter and meters per second, in fields created by electromagnets many times more intense than what you can create with the best rare earth magnets is used to . . . get this . . . eliminate ortho from the mix and convert the majority of the liquid hydrogen to para hydrogen. This is to stabilize the liquid for long term storage at low temperatures.



How you "feel" is fine in love and spicy foods. However, you need to quantify, if you are to call this a scientific discussion. Even if it is the most basic of measurements - indirect or direct.


I never intended for this thread to be a scientific thread discussion on how my research was changing how we do things with our hho reactors. I simply was documenting what I was doing and experiencing with my newest experiment for the benefit of others. I'm not out to make money on this, or prove any current theories wrong and obsolete. Simply documenting what I am doing, isn't this why the forum exists so that we can all share our ideas and help each other improve? I don't think anyone here is out of make their first million with the greatest reactor since sliced bread, I think we're all here to help each other out.

I am in no way a scientist, heck when i graduated high school the only science required was earth science. I am simply working in my garage and sharing what knowledge i have in this new hobby of mine. Yes i've been helping family members learn about this new technology but its hard not too when they borrow your car for the weekend and get over 45 mpg on the hwy. So take my experiences for what they are, experiences from someone who is constantly learning about this technology and sharing it with others who share my passion about hho.


Havens

[reggaerican]

I never intended for this thread to be a scientific thread discussion on how my research was changing how we do things with our hho reactors. I simply was documenting what I was doing and experiencing with my newest experiment for the benefit of others. I'm not out to make money on this, or prove any current theories wrong and obsolete. Simply documenting what I am doing, isn't this why the forum exists so that we can all share our ideas and help each other improve? I don't think anyone here is out of make their first million with the greatest reactor since sliced bread, I think we're all here to help each other out.

I am in no way a scientist, heck when i graduated high school the only science required was earth science. I am simply working in my garage and sharing what knowledge i have in this new hobby of mine. Yes i've been helping family members learn about this new technology but its hard not too when they borrow your car for the weekend and get over 45 mpg on the hwy. So take my experiences for what they are, experiences from someone who is constantly learning about this technology and sharing it with others who share my passion about hho.


Havens

Well Havens I for one appreciate this thread. Scientific or not in there eyes its helpfull to me and others.

here is a discovery from one scientist to another if you dont like it stay the F away..

[RustyLugNut]

Just took out the rest, but this stands for all of it......................................

GET' EM BIO !!:cool:

It is obvious I have injured peoples feelings. Should I feel sorry? I think not. I came in asking legitimate questions, and if this is a legitimate site to discuss science and technology . . . then I have my rights to my "opinions" , since that is all this site seems to be.

[RustyLugNut]

Well Havens I for one appreciate this thread. Scientific or not in there eyes its helpfull to me and others.

here is a discovery from one scientist to another if you dont like it stay the F away..

This is an example of what is wrong here. Such intolerance in the face of lack of understanding is simply a way for the incapable to buoy their position of faith.

It looks like one can simply call themselves a scientist and it becomes so?

[RustyLugNut]

I never intended for this thread to be a scientific thread discussion on how my research was changing how we do things with our hho reactors. I simply was documenting what I was doing and experiencing with my newest experiment for the benefit of others. I'm not out to make money on this, or prove any current theories wrong and obsolete. Simply documenting what I am doing, isn't this why the forum exists so that we can all share our ideas and help each other improve? I don't think anyone here is out of make their first million with the greatest reactor since sliced bread, I think we're all here to help each other out.

I am in no way a scientist, heck when i graduated high school the only science required was earth science. I am simply working in my garage and sharing what knowledge i have in this new hobby of mine. Yes i've been helping family members learn about this new technology but its hard not too when they borrow your car for the weekend and get over 45 mpg on the hwy. So take my experiences for what they are, experiences from someone who is constantly learning about this technology and sharing it with others who share my passion about hho.


Havens

Forgive my impertinence for assuming a thread you started with a post to the Ruskin Filter Patent and another to the diagrams for the quantum spin isomers of hydrogen, was a technical/scientific research endeavor. It is not difficult to see it implied as such since the subject matter requires deeper thought than a surface scan of the subject.

[RustyLugNut]

Besides the many peer reviewed papers published on it (please do your own searches, I'm pressed for time this evening) the fact that Simon Ruskin was awarded a utility patent. This means that the mechanism has to and does work as outlined in the application, not just look like it probably would.

I have done research. I am not questioning the validity of the Ruskin Patent. But how does it translate to your application? That is the question I seek. Energy is needed. The Ruskin Filter is employed in missile boosters with turbo pumps that rate in the thousands of horsepower in some applications. The Ruskin Filter employs the velocity imparted to the liquid para hydrogen to start the interconversion to ortho hydrogen in the staggered magnetic fields. Is there enough energy in your gas stream to make the collisions energetic enough to start the interconversion?

And, as an aside . . . the granting of a utility patent does NOT guarantee the device has been prototyped and tested. The USPO challenges only a relative handful of patents every year for proof. "Patent Law", byJ. Meuller, is oft cited in undergrad classes as a definitive text. I have an early edition on my shelf. She makes it very clear that most patents are not challenged. But the threat thereof makes outlandish devices unlikely to be applied for.


How do you know the sun will rise tomorrow? -You don't, but you assign the likelihood a high probability based on long term observation of similar action.

I simply asked if you had any way of knowing interconversion is actually going on within your Ruskin Filter. This is a poor parallel as argument. We can, and have observed the sun. Do we know the Ruskin works in this application? I have seen no indication it does.



Sh1ts and giggles? Why not? Nothing is harmed by doing so.. Does it matter?

There is significant energy gained in interconversion from para to ortho hydrogen. But the amount of energy you could gain is very small seeing as you can only pass micro grams per second of HHO through your filter. Since "normal" room temp hydrogen already contains 75% ortho, the energy gained is exceedingly small by converting the other 25%.

I ask this, because someone may realize it may not be worth the time and effort to build a Ruskin filter for this application, unless something else is happening . . . ?



Which means exactly what? Is this statement intended to imply that simply because it is not the method used in industry that it is not an effective method? It received a utility patent, remember? It serves our non-industrial use effectively and economically, and that is all we require of it.




Just so- a large scale industrial method utilizing electrically induced paramagnetic sites in non ferrous metals at liquid hydrogen temperatures. Very different from the Ruskin method.

Actually, this is precisely how the Ruskin Filter works. It is just another method via electromagnets vs permanent magnets. And I had it backwards. It makes ortho hydrogen. Catalysts are usually used to inter convert from ortho to para as well as additional refrigeration energy to absorb the heat released.



Upon re-reading his comments, I can find no instance where he even implied that it was a scientific discussion

I answered him in another post.

[reggaerican]

This is an example of what is wrong here. Such intolerance in the face of lack of understanding is simply a way for the incapable to buoy their position of faith.

It looks like one can simply call themselves a scientist and it becomes so?

Oh I am no scientist and I meen no disrespect to anyone. Im just here to learn so I get annoyed when I read negative posts like that.

two wrongs dont make it right so I apologize..
great, everyone is happy again moving on.

[Madsceintist]

This is a test anyone of you can do...............

First:
Use your cell to fill a one pint plastic bottle; insert into a 4 inch pvc pipe 8 foot long that's sealed; threaded on one end with a wire through the cap as a detonator; a compression tester on the other end of the pipe; DETONATE.
Next:
Use the same cell and your version of a Ruskin or magnetic field; same type of bottle; same pipe; same experiment; DETONATE.
Repeat as often as you like and you will see the difference..........................every time!
I have, if that is scientific enough to start?
If it doesn't work I have no need to use it nor pass it to others myself.

[BioFarmer93]

I have done research. I am not questioning the validity of the Ruskin Patent. But how does it translate to your application?-Directly.
That is the question I seek. Energy is needed.-Energy is present in the magnetic fields
The Ruskin Filter is employed in missile boosters with turbo pumps that rate in the thousands of horsepower in some applications. The Ruskin Filter employs the velocity imparted to the liquid para hydrogen to start the interconversion to ortho hydrogen in the staggered magnetic fields. Is there enough energy in your gas stream to make the collisions energetic enough to start the interconversion? -It is apparently sufficient since the gas density is orders of magnitude lower and temperature higher, and if speed through the fields truly is a necessary factor for room temperature conversion of gaseous H then this is easily accomplished by restricting the diameter of the converter's outer tube body to a fractional proportion of the original formula. This new ratio would have to be determined case by case, dependent upon a particular reactors output. There is certain research data that I have access to that I am unfortunately restricted from sharing in this or any forum that allows me to assert the above with confidence- apologies to all concerned..:o

And, as an aside . . . the granting of a utility patent does NOT guarantee the device has been prototyped and tested. The USPO challenges only a relative handful of patents every year for proof. "Patent Law", byJ. Meuller, is oft cited in undergrad classes as a definitive text. I have an early edition on my shelf. She makes it very clear that most patents are not challenged. But the threat thereof makes outlandish devices unlikely to be applied for.
"The para-hydrogen, as it flows, cuts the generally radial and perpendicular magnetic fields of the magnets and is converted to the ortho state. There is no dispute that magnetic fields will effect the conversion from para- to ortho-hydrogen, both appellant and the Patent Office acknowledging that the phenomenon was known. The Patent Office is apparently satisfied that the appellant's device is operable."


I simply asked if you had any way of knowing interconversion is actually going on within your Ruskin Filter. This is a poor parallel as argument. -Really? I think it is wonderfully analogous, and you just stated your opinion as fact. We can, and have observed the sun. Do we know the Ruskin works in this application? I have seen no indication it does. -Then apparently you have not built or tested one as I and others here have.. But then we are not proper SCIENTISTS so our results are only anecdotal, right? Therefore apparently disregarded and poo-poo'ed by the anointed..




There is significant energy gained in interconversion from para to ortho hydrogen. But the amount of energy you could gain is very small seeing as you can only pass micro grams per second of HHO through your filter. Since "normal" room temp hydrogen already contains 75% ortho, the energy gained is exceedingly small by converting the other 25%. -Does not every bit help? One does not step over a penny to pick up a pound, if possible you grab them both.



Actually, this is precisely how the Ruskin Filter works. It is just another method via electromagnets vs permanent magnets. And I had it backwards. It makes ortho hydrogen. Catalysts are usually used to inter convert from ortho to para as well as additional refrigeration energy to absorb the heat released. [/QUOTE] -As I found references to conversions both directions using magnetic fields (and specific metals for ortho to para) one can only surmise that field strength, shape of field, type of field and some other variables all act to determine specific action. I am satisfied with it as far as I have pursued it, and in any case do not intend to respond to any more devil's advocation on your part. Good day sir.

[RustyLugNut]

This is a test anyone of you can do...............

First:
Use your cell to fill a one pint plastic bottle; insert into a 4 inch pvc pipe 8 foot long that's sealed; threaded on one end with a wire through the cap as a detonator; a compression tester on the other end of the pipe; DETONATE.
Next:
Use the same cell and your version of a Ruskin or magnetic field; same type of bottle; same pipe; same experiment; DETONATE.
Repeat as often as you like and you will see the difference..........................every time!
I have, if that is scientific enough to start?
If it doesn't work I have no need to use it nor pass it to others myself.

Many of your posts are highly questionable. This one borders on mad! I highly doubt you have performed this so called experiment. Someone is going to try this and get hurt!

This is HIGHLY DANGEROUS! I have ignited 1 liter plastic bottles filled with HHO. It is like firing a shotgun. And you propose to encase it in a PVC pipe? I have seen HHO cannons, made from PVC, shatter from firing.

HHO is a stoichiometric mix of oxygen & hydrogen. In an enclosed space, the combustion flame front can be left far behind by the detonation front which can exceed the speed of sound.

Explain yourself more fully with drawings, descriptions and purpose.

[RustyLugNut]

-Directly.

So, your HHO generators are pumping liquid hydrogen at high mass rates and high velocities? Now I'm being facetious. You feel the Ruskin Patent is directly related, and I feel it is less so. We will leave it at that.


-Energy is present in the magnetic fields

Yet, hydrogen left in a static magnetic field inter converts at a slow rate. Energetic Collisions are needed to change the spin.


-It is apparently sufficient since the gas density is orders of magnitude lower and temperature higher, and if speed through the fields truly is a necessary factor for room temperature conversion of gaseous H then this is easily accomplished by restricting the diameter of the converter's outer tube body to a fractional proportion of the original formula. This new ratio would have to be determined case by case, dependent upon a particular reactors output. There is certain research data that I have access to that I am unfortunately restricted from sharing in this or any forum that allows me to assert the above with confidence- apologies to all concerned..:o

The bottom line is . . . have you measured the output of your filters to see if the percentage of ortho hydrogen has increased? There are ways to do so. However costly. So I don't really expect you to answer yes.


And, as an aside . . . the granting of a utility patent does NOT guarantee the device has been prototyped and tested. The USPO challenges only a relative handful of patents every year for proof. "Patent Law", byJ. Meuller, is oft cited in undergrad classes as a definitive text. I have an early edition on my shelf. She makes it very clear that most patents are not challenged. But the threat thereof makes outlandish devices unlikely to be applied for.
"The para-hydrogen, as it flows, cuts the generally radial and perpendicular magnetic fields of the magnets and is converted to the ortho state. There is no dispute that magnetic fields will effect the conversion from para- to ortho-hydrogen, both appellant and the Patent Office acknowledging that the phenomenon was known. The Patent Office is apparently satisfied that the appellant's device is operable."

Again, no proof of concept prototype to prove operation. Do you have evidence outside of the patent pages that the device was built and tested? Lay people have this unfounded belief that the granting of a patent proves absolutely the device functions. You prove your utility via the abstract, drawings, claims, etc. That is it. I brought this up as a counterpoint to your insistence that the granted patent proves the Ruskin Filter works. I am not saying the Ruskin Filter does not work, only that the granting of the patent does not ensure that it works.


I simply asked if you had any way of knowing interconversion is actually going on within your Ruskin Filter. This is a poor parallel as argument. -Really? I think it is wonderfully analogous, and you just stated your opinion as fact. We can, and have observed the sun. Do we know the Ruskin works in this application? I have seen no indication it does. -Then apparently you have not built or tested one as I and others here have.. But then we are not proper SCIENTISTS so our results are only anecdotal, right? Therefore apparently disregarded and poo-poo'ed by the anointed..

Have you really "Tested" your units effectiveness? What is the % of ortho hydrogen at the output? Simple question. Any other data would be appreciated.



There is significant energy gained in interconversion from para to ortho hydrogen. But the amount of energy you could gain is very small seeing as you can only pass micro grams per second of HHO through your filter. Since "normal" room temp hydrogen already contains 75% ortho, the energy gained is exceedingly small by converting the other 25%. -Does not every bit help? One does not step over a penny to pick up a pound, if possible you grab them both.


If you think all this effort is worth it, then go ahead. As the gap between the spin energies of ortho and para hydrogen narrow as temperature increases, by the time we get to 273K and above there is very little energy to be gained by the Ruskin Filter derived device you have built. If you are indeed seeing a considerable gain in efficiency, it is certainly not because of spin energy differences. You will have to look elsewhere for the reason.



Actually, this is precisely how the Ruskin Filter works. It is just another method via electromagnets vs permanent magnets. And I had it backwards. It makes ortho hydrogen. Catalysts are usually used to inter convert from ortho to para as well as additional refrigeration energy to absorb the heat released. -As I found references to conversions both directions using magnetic fields (and specific metals for ortho to para) one can only surmise that field strength, shape of field, type of field and some other variables all act to determine specific action. I am satisfied with it as far as I have pursued it, and in any case do not intend to respond to any more devil's advocation on your part. Good day sir.

This topic needed a devils advocate. Many topics on this forum need one. There is too much agreement to detriment. BioFarmer, you make it clear in your profile and in this thread and others that you have an adverse reaction to overbearing educated types. That is unfortunate. But the exercise of real discourse sharpens our concept and learning.

Someone asked for a definitive answer on can, and how, this Filter works. In summary, I believe it can increase the ortho percentage of "normal" hydrogen. Even in the application BioFarmer and others are using it in. However, the benefits are ambiguous. The added energy of increased ortho hydrogen is exceedingly small. If there are any significant real world gains, it will be for some other phenomenon we have overlooked.

Yes this is only my opinion. But I think it has good basis. Hopefully the reader has gained enough information to form their own opinion on the subject.

[aceras624]

Good job Rusty :) I too have been searching for a better reason to use a Ruskin filter and have had a hard time finding eveidence that its beneficial enough to make one. Its like asking "how does this work" and hearing "it does".

I wish someone could tell me how long it takes for para to turn back into ortho in say the average temp inside and engine compartment?

[D.O.G]

Here's a quote from an article that myoldyourgold posted on the R.Y.F.B. site, titled Ortho hydrogen conversion.pdf.
http://reduceyourfuelbill.com.au/forum/index.php?topic=444.0



"Hydrogen coexists in two different forms, ortho and para hydrogen, whose partition is dependent on the temperature. Normal hydrogen at room temperature is 75 % ortho (nuclear spins aligned) and 25 % para (spins anti-aligned).

In the lower temperature range < 80 K, para hydrogen is the more stable form. At 20 K, the thermal equilibrium concentrations are 99.821 % para and 0.179 % ortho. The transition takes place over a longer period (about 3 - 4 days), until a new equilibrium state is reached.

However, magnetic impurities and also small oxygen concentrations are able to catalyze ortho-para conversions raising the rate by several orders of magnitude (very good: Fe(OH)3) to the order of hours.
Any concentration of either spin state can be created at any temperature through the action of catalysts.

Most physical properties are differing only slightly between the two spin states.
Most important is the large energy difference between the two varieties, which results in major differences for the specific heats and thermal conductivities.

The presence of a radiation field results in the generation of free hydrogen atoms and ions, which also act as catalysts before recombining. The recombination on the other hand produces excess ortho hydrogen."



Other stuff I've read states that temperature alone can't raise the ortho / parra ratio above 75% / 25%, which is attained at "room temperature" (paragraph one), so engine bay temps are more than good enough.

Time for the conversion seems to be conditional on several things, see paragraphs two and three.

The biggest issue I see for HHO is in the third paragraph above. The issue of oxygen acting as a catalyst to convert ortho to parra.

Rusty, please note the fourth paragraph.;)

The fifth paragraph seems to support the theory that the Ruskin converter is based on.

I didn't write this article, I'm not a physicist, so I can't prove any of it, but I see no reason not to accept it .... until something better comes along.:D

[RustyLugNut]

Good job Rusty :) I too have been searching for a better reason to use a Ruskin filter and have had a hard time finding eveidence that its beneficial enough to make one. Its like asking "how does this work" and hearing "it does".

I wish someone could tell me how long it takes for para to turn back into ortho in say the average temp inside and engine compartment?

I gave this some thought before I closed the office for the weekend.

The energetic ortho hydrogen lingers around long enough at STP (standard temperature and pressure) to certainly make it into the combustion chamber.
Remember that at STP, 75% of the H2 is ortho and this is it's equilibrium percentage. With the a high speed stream of HHO passing through a modified Ruskin Filter, that ortho percentage may certainly increase. But then . . .

Simply said, it doesn't matter. In the presence of oxygen, under the heat and turbulence of compression, most H2 has broken up to form short lived species such as H+, OH-, HOOH, and so forth. Simple, very reactive combustion intermediaries that form when the flame front is formed. These species help in the thermal de-polymerization of the relatively long chain fuels. Like high speed bullets, they help cut apart and disassemble the carbon chains. A simplification of classical theory, but workable for our needs.

What I am surmising is that, our addition of H2 before the combustion flame is even started, results in the formation of some of these reactive sub species. Even during the compression stroke in a spark ignited engine, I think the small addition of H2 results in some of that H2, if not all, forming up with oxygen to get our reactive subspecies going during the compression stroke. The "de-polymerization" of our fuel carbon chains may already be going on during compression freeing up even more hydrogen to join the process in a domino effect, effectively conditioning the fuel before combustion. The above is, again, a simplification, but it should give you an understanding of how HHO may affect our spark ignited engines. The substantial gains some members of this forum are reporting even with relatively small influx of HHO may be due to the above happening. A "perfect storm of variables" may be allowing them to hit the domino effect early in the compression stroke providing a substantially pre-conditioned fuel mixture at the initiation of the spark event.

This could be where the Ruskin Filter comes into use. Maybe, just maybe . . . the increased ortho hydrogen content coming out of the filter may allow our engines to see a greater number of reactive species forming from the ortho hydrogen much earlier than with just the "normal" hydrogen ratio of ortho/para. Ortho hydrogen is considered more reactive than para, so it may be that just a small percentage increase over the normal 75% ortho may be all that is needed to tip the scales and really get the domino effect going.The SI engine could be seeing a greatly pre-conditioned fuel mix because of it.

It may be . . .

That is the problem. I don't really know for sure until I can test. My shop is only a few miles away from one of the best equipped University of California schools able to probe these questions. And I will not have access to it's facilities until/unless the grant requests come through.

But we as outside experimenters can continue to work through our own research. But it behooves us to be a bit more scientific about it.

For every positive report on the use of HHO, there may be a dozen failed attempts. Simply because there is a lack of depth of understanding. Without this understanding, it is a hit and miss proposition when applying HHO technology.

We may not have the lab equipment to directly or closely measure our experiments. But we can think of indirect means that can give us clues.

One example of a measurable and repeatable experiment is one that convinced me that HHO works. We had two '85 vehicles in our test stable. One, a Dodge 2.2l gas engine 4 door sedan equipped with a manual 5 speed transmission. The other was a Mercedes 2.2l NA diesel similarly configured. Our electrolysis cell configuration comprised 3 Faraday cells in electrical series. With true Faraday cells, all that matters is the amperage you put into each cell and you can calculate exactly how much H2 is evolved. It was built for a different purpose but worked well in this application. A current limiting controller was used. Amperes could be adjusted from 4 amps to 20.

Our dynomometer was a simple stretch of road leading up to the airport. Straight with little traffic and a gradual rise of exactly 10 feet in a quarter mile. Why was this chosen? Because, surprisingly, both vehicles could be placed in 1st gear and could idle up the rise! By measuring the time it took to traverse the quarter mile, we could see relative gains/losses in any changes we made.

The Little Dodge was happy with 7 amps through the cells. Anymore and the idle suffered as the draw on the alternator was too much or the combustion timing became too advanced. The Black Hawk engine analyzer showed the engine gained 50 rpm when the 7 amp cells kicked in. Out on "dyno Hill", the baseline "runs" idling up the hill were consistent within 2 seconds. With the cells operating, a consistent 15 seconds were cut off the baseline time! One could do it all day with little variation from run to run.

The Little Mercedes could take all 20 amps and showed no change in idle at all. But out on the "dyno", it consistently cut several seconds off its baseline time. The Mercedes times were more consistent with less than a second variation. Turn off the electrolysis cells, it slowed down to the baseline. Turn it on, and it gained the several seconds back. What was even more surprising, was with HHO, the Diesel could idle up the hill in 2nd gear! Without it, it could not!

Other vehicles that were capable of idling up the hill were tested, but they showed no gains and some even showed losses! This told us this was not a simple exercise of just sticking an electrolysis generator on any vehicle.

The Little Dodge has gone to the scrap yard to be replaced with a 2007 2.4l Dodge, while the Little Mercedes is still in use as a daily driver with just under 550,000 miles on the odometer, which broke 11 yrs ago.

The above is just an example of attempting to quantify our experiments versus just giving quality reports. This makes the tests more valuable. Our shop has other, more advanced testing apparatus, but anyone can set up something similar. With some ingenuity, anything is possible.

If someone with a Ruskin Filter could run a similar experiment, it would be invaluable.

[RustyLugNut]

Could you be more specific about the "fourth paragraph". The 4th paragraph hits me as being a discussion about hydrogen diffusivity.

Use, sections and paragraphs. This is assuming I have the correct Pdf file.

By the way, I was already familiar with the page and most of it's documents, but thank you for bringing it up for perusal.

[RustyLugNut]

Could you be more specific about the "fourth paragraph". The 4th paragraph hits me as being a discussion about hydrogen diffusivity.

Use, sections and paragraphs. This is assuming I have the correct Pdf file.

By the way, I was already familiar with the page and most of it's documents, but thank you for bringing it up for perusal.

I just realized you were referring to the paragraphs in your post.

The large energy difference is at low temperatures. At 50K (Kelvin) the molar energies are significant. At 273K ( 0 degrees centigrade) the energies have far less difference.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/Ortho-para_H2_energies.jpg

This chart from Wikipedia shows the molar energies starting to merge as temperature increases.

[Madsceintist]

Many of your posts are highly questionable. This one borders on mad! I highly doubt you have performed this so called experiment. Someone is going to try this and get hurt!

This is HIGHLY DANGEROUS! I have ignited 1 liter plastic bottles filled with HHO. It is like firing a shotgun. And you propose to encase it in a PVC pipe? I have seen HHO cannons, made from PVC, shatter from firing.

HHO is a stoichiometric mix of oxygen & hydrogen. In an enclosed space, the combustion flame front can be left far behind by the detonation front which can exceed the speed of sound.

Explain yourself more fully with drawings, descriptions and purpose.
One; I doubt that anyone else would do this, BUT yes I did. The pint is filled NOT THE WHOLE TUBE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's encased with 2x10 wood all around it except for the top. It hasn't blown up yet and I've detonated probably 30 pints in it. The length helps it NOT to rupture, any shorter and it might!
WHY DO YOU THINK I USE THE NAME "MADSCEINTIST", its what my friends and family say I am.:eek:

I've detonated a 1 gallon Hawaiian punch bottle as well! That was like a cannon going off! THAT I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND FOR ANYONE.

I'm very aware of what I am doing thank you! But just to cover this for YOU.


ANYONE EXPERIMENTING WITH HHO OR HYDROGEN SHOULD NOT DO ANY RISKY BUSINESS, AND DO USE GOGGLES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[myoldyourgold]

I have been extremely busy and have just barely had time to follow this thread much less take part. I must complement all who have participated. I think that everyone is really on the same track even though there is some possible misunderstandings. Science sometimes is not that easy to apply to practical experiments especially ones that are not performed in a controlled lab. Those of us who do not have this luxury have to press on just the same. RustyLugNut, Bio, Madscientist D.O.G. and others together make for a valuable resource to test, explain, and verify various results in this field which is so full of false and misapplied information that one has to be very careful.

I am not going to rehash what has already been said by going over point by point or getting into an argument with anyone because without evidence that is verifiable, duplicated and under the same test conditions, will the actual facts be able to be proven or disproved. The basics are in agreement as far as the advantage of ortho over para. I have not seen any tests that shows that all types of HHO reactors/generators produce under the same conditions(STP) 75% ortho. Not being able to test this myself but doing many tests have concluded that not all HHO reactors make the same gas. This is one of many possible reason the results of the Ruskin or similar device can very. RustyLugNut have you had the gas you produced tested for ortho/para content? You might be the only one who can afford to verify this or have the facility. I have some test evidence that in most cases the gas most reactors are producing is not at the standard ratio at (STP) or at least of poor quality even after dried and cooled. Exactly why and how this is even possible needs to tested by others and verified but as you know it is expensive.


Simply said, it doesn't matter. In the presence of oxygen, under the heat and turbulence of compression, most H2 has broken up to form short lived species such as H+, OH-, HOOH, and so forth. Simple, very reactive combustion intermediaries that form when the flame front is formed. These species help in the thermal de-polymerization of the relatively long chain fuels. Like high speed bullets, they help cut apart and disassemble the carbon chains. A simplification of classical theory, but workable for our needs.

What I am surmising is that, our addition of H2 before the combustion flame is even started, results in the formation of some of these reactive sub species. Even during the compression stroke in a spark ignited engine, I think the small addition of H2 results in some of that H2, if not all, forming up with oxygen to get our reactive subspecies going during the compression stroke. The "de-polymerization" of our fuel carbon chains may already be going on during compression freeing up even more hydrogen to join the process in a domino effect, effectively conditioning the fuel before combustion. The above is, again, a simplification, but it should give you an understanding of how HHO may affect our spark ignited engines. The substantial gains some members of this forum are reporting even with relatively small influx of HHO may be due to the above happening. A "perfect storm of variables" may be allowing them to hit the domino effect early in the compression stroke providing a substantially pre-conditioned fuel mixture at the initiation of the spark event.


Based on some research I have to agree with this except for the fact that it makes no difference. Until it can be confirmed or denied that most gas is not at 75/25 percent respectably or some is and some is not coming from the average reactor. Because of the various chemical reaction in the reactor itself based on plate material and the type of conditioning, electrolyte etc just to mention a few, makes me feel that there is enough evidence of a difference in the composition of the HHO coming out of the reactor especially when coupled with a gas conditioner like Ruskins or a variation. This difference is much larger than most have experienced. Some on this forum know what I am talking about. If you do not then I can assure you I am not going there in a public forum. LOL It is personal. Some of the necessary chemical reactions have to start in the reactor, so when the gas is subjected to compression and other chemical reactions in the pre combustion process, conditions change enough to give an increase in usable energy. I am not remotely suggesting that I understand this process but have read and done enough tests to confirm to my satisfaction it does take place and the results have been seen by more than myself.

I do not think that the Ruskin patent as published is the final answer. I suspect that even he has held back something. If you think about the time the gas is subjected to the field and the field's strength you will come possibly to the same conclusion. This is in reference to gas that is already at the 75% to 25% ratio to start with. Lacking the ability to test gas in an acceptable scientific method, I well error on the conservative side until some proof is there that to increase ortho to more than 75% to 25% ratio using his method as in the patent is not possible. Now with some variance all bets could be are off.

It is my opinion which is based on some results that have not been confirmed or duplicated by others that the ortho content in regards to its additional energy plays a very small part if any, compared to what more ortho does in the compression stroke, thus effecting the thermodynamics, combustion process, and resulting in more usable energy. Of course that is a very simplistic explanation and when done wrong works in reverse or not at all. This is going to take a number of highly qualified people in chemistry, physics, etc. with complete knowledge and understanding of the ICE who can work together and understand each other to solve this based on acceptable science. This is yet to happen and might never.

[RustyLugNut]

I didn't make it clear in my discussion when I said " it doesn't matter" in reference to the HHO going into the combustion event. I made it sound that none if it mattered!

I did mean to emphasize that, even though the H2 is dissociated and reacted negating spin, there may be reactions going on before the introduction of the spark event. This is where I continued with the postulation of possible reactivity before combustion.

Yesterday, I was with my father at the park listening to a free concert by a big band. Before and between Tommy Dorsey hits, we talked. We usually don't talk shop as his science background is in Biology, specifically Microbiology. But when I mentioned spin isomers, he perked up and blabbed out some stuff I've never even heard of! To make things even more interesting, the fellow in front of us overheard the conversation and turned around to throw in his 2 bucks worth of pennies. Turned out he is a young astrophysicist, and hydrogen spin isomers is important to them. I was even more lost with his outpouring of wisdom.

Humbled and a bit tentative to join in, I was able to ask about the effect of spin isomers of hydrogen having chemical advantages in reactions and how to measure the ortho/para ratio (OPR). Turns out the quick and dirty way to measure OPR is simply to take advantage of the change in heat capacity between the 2 isomers. If you can separate the hydrogen from the oxygen since the oxy can make it "messy". Other gasses are often allowed in the mix and accounted for but oxygen, they thought was too reactive. As to the reactivity difference, they thought there was essentially none for our situation ( industrial chemical ). There are implications on the quantum level of course, and some chemical reactions are blocked and altered on the very subtle micro level, but in an engine, there would be no advantage for one or the other.

I briefly explained what we were doing here on this forum and in other places and the young astrophysicist, simply said " not because of the ortho para differences. Check for something else. It might be some of the mono atomic hydrogen is making it into the combustion chamber. Mono atomic hydrogen is obviously very reactive. That's why you don't see it in nature except in the far reaches of space."

The concert ended but now I had a whole slew of questions.

myold, myself and others have been essentially saying the hydrogen we are adding is pre-conditioning the fuel mix before the spark event allowing a faster heat release in a crank range that is more advantageous to making power.

However, we may be barking up the wrong tree here with this whole magnetic filter business.

So, some questions to look into:

How much more reactive is mono atomic hydrogen than the paired H2?

How long is the residence time of mono H once it is evolved in an electrolysis generator?

Do some generator configurations favor more mono H creation and retention?

I have more questions, but these seem crucial to our cause.

Just had to add one more question in edit mode:

Do our Ruskin Filters aid the transmission or creation of mono H?

Have at it.

[D.O.G]

Well, that's an interesting twist to the theory.:)
I freely admit this is quickly getting over my head, but ....


"Just had to add one more question in edit mode:

Do our Ruskin Filters aid the transmission or creation of mono H?"

A couple of quotes that seem to say that it's possible.

"The presence of a radiation field results in the generation of free hydrogen atoms and ions,"

"Also, electromagnetic radiation above about 11 eV[citation needed] can be absorbed by H2 and lead to its dissociation."

[RustyLugNut]

Well, that's an interesting twist to the theory.:)
I freely admit this is quickly getting over my head, but ....


"Just had to add one more question in edit mode:

Do our Ruskin Filters aid the transmission or creation of mono H?"

A couple of quotes that seem to say that it's possible.

"The presence of a radiation field results in the generation of free hydrogen atoms and ions,"

"Also, electromagnetic radiation above about 11 eV[citation needed] can be absorbed by H2 and lead to its dissociation."

I only got half a days work done today thinking about this. Thanks for collecting some clues.

Can anyone else help us out?

[myoldyourgold]

myold, myself and others have been essentially saying the hydrogen we are adding is pre-conditioning the fuel mix before the spark event allowing a faster heat release in a crank range that is more advantageous to making power.

However, we may be barking up the wrong tree here with this whole magnetic filter business.

So, some questions to look into:

How much more reactive is mono atomic hydrogen than the paired H2?

How long is the residence time of mono H once it is evolved in an electrolysis generator?

Do some generator configurations favor more mono H creation and retention?

I have more questions, but these seem crucial to our cause.

Just had to add one more question in edit mode:

Do our Ruskin Filters aid the transmission or creation of mono H?


I think that there is much more to this and we might be looking at this in to narrow of a view. If the engine is leaned out the burn rate of the gasoline is reduced and causes more heat. By adding enough HHO it speeds things back up reducing the heat and maintaining HP or in some case actually increasing it. This results in more energy (heat) being used to push the piston down if this takes place at the right crank angle.

What happens without a lean condition and if there is a change in the gas make up in the compression stroke or if there are changes to the gas makeup in the reactor is very difficult to prove except maybe in a lab with the right equipment which none of us known to me have. Many have stated that ortho bonds itself to the hydrocarbon molecule and if that is true then that is one change taking place in the compression stroke. I am not a chemist and really have no idea but do see better results with better quality gas than with poor quality but without testing the gas can not confirm that it is really more ortho or not. There is also possibly energy released as ortho changes to para in the compression stroke. Exactly how, when and even if this happens is beyond by ability to test but could be another source of energy if captured and used. The exact balance of many things is what I think is what give the best results and is why you see large gains in some vehicles and less in others of the same model.

I have seen some data that other gases that are much more active are formed in some reactors and contribute to the whole process. Again impossible for me to test but could explain why the results are better in some cases. It is easy to speculate but that does not give you real answers even if right.

Because of the many variables both in the compression stroke, combustion and in the reactor itself, I am still not convinced that there is nothing happening in both cases that promotes a better situation. I need more information before I could make any move from this position based on tests I have done.

The mono H topic I leave by choice at this moment. I will say that it has an important role but am not willing to get into it right know. There is some aspects of this topic that cause a lot of controversy, misunderstanding and my lack of understanding of the science prevents me from explaining results I have seen attributed to mono H, so will pass. It is a realm that needs a lot more investigation in my opinion for me to discus. Most of this is above my pay rate already. LOL

[RustyLugNut]

Well, I did find a few Pdf papers filed away on the DOE (Department of Energy) website.

Several references of monatomic H being produced at high temperatures in a plasma flame made it very clear that they didn't stay single more than a few micro seconds as the monatomic H is so reactive.

Another paper studies the possibility of decomposing water at high temperatures (>2100 deg K) and using centrifugal separation. However, the energy and entropy states must be such that the monatomic H becomes H2 within micro or nano seconds of cooling (<2100 deg K).

Another proposal for nuclear space propulsion outlined the nuclear heating of hydrogen gas at 5 and 60 atmospheres to dissociate the H2 molecule and accelerate it as a monatomic particle to provide long burn, low thrust propulsion in space. It made it clear that the mona H recombined just as it left the nozzle in the vacuum. At particle velocities of 5 to 6 km per second, this was a very rapid recombination.

A basic study of the heating effects of micro waves (electromagnetic radiation at 2.45 GHz) had water as the base comparison. At boiling, the steam can contain O, O2, H, H2 as well as ions such as OH-, etc. However, most monatomic H and O recombined instantly to paired molecules and quickly became water with just a bit of cooling.

These studies referenced dozens of papers from government and academia labs.

It is fundamentally clear the monatomic hydrogen molecule cannot be part of the production of our HHO electrolysis generators. Even if our plate configurations as well as our metal choices or frequency pulsing of our power, produces monatomic H, it would instantly recombine to H2, or the presence of oxygen would mean the high reactivity of monatomic hydrogen would be evident in rapid oxidation (combustion) which does not happen in our generators.

Our Ruskin Filters could produce it with enough gas velocity but the resultant gas stream would still fall quickly back to diatomic gases before it passed into the intake manifolds of our vehicles.

This pretty much means a dead end for this postulation that monatomic hydrogen is the active reactant in pre-conditioning our fuel mix before the spark event.

If anyone has some good science to add to this discussion, feel free to jump in.

In summary:

The addition of HHO works to pre-condition the fuel mix to promote a more advantageous combustion event.

Ortho hydrogen versus para hydrogen is seen as a non factor in our combustion process.

Monatomic hydrogen cannot exist long enough to be a part of our combustion chamber effects.


But, don't despair. I point the reader to other places in the forums where people are finding success in applying their HHO generators and in some instances, their Ruskin Type Filters. Something is working, albeit with a wide range of variability and not a few failures.

I seek to know Why this works and how, so that the engineering can move forward to consistently execute a successful system no matter the ICE type.

I probably should start a new thread . . . we are far beyond the original discussion.

[RustyLugNut]

I think that there is much more to this and we might be looking at this in to narrow of a view. If the engine is leaned out the burn rate of the gasoline is reduced and causes more heat. By adding enough HHO it speeds things back up reducing the heat and maintaining HP or in some case actually increasing it. This results in more energy (heat) being used to push the piston down if this takes place at the right crank angle.

I just want to clarify what you are saying. At lean limits, classic combustion theory tells us that the flame front becomes slower and more erratic. More fuel is lost to the exhaust due to incomplete combustion. The addition of hydrogen gas to the lean mixture increases the flammability limit while increasing the flame stability and speed. The fuel can be burned in the useful crank angle range providing more available power than otherwise. The exhaust temperature should actually drop as less wasted heat and wasted fuel is passed to the exhaust manifolding.




What happens without a lean condition and if there is a change in the gas make up in the compression stroke or if there are changes to the gas makeup in the reactor is very difficult to prove except maybe in a lab with the right equipment which none of us known to me have. Many have stated that ortho bonds itself to the hydrocarbon molecule and if that is true then that is one change taking place in the compression stroke. I am not a chemist and really have no idea but do see better results with better quality gas than with poor quality but without testing the gas can not confirm that it is really more ortho or not. There is also possibly energy released as ortho changes to para in the compression stroke. Exactly how, when and even if this happens is beyond by ability to test but could be another source of energy if captured and used. The exact balance of many things is what I think is what give the best results and is why you see large gains in some vehicles and less in others of the same model.

I have seen some data that other gases that are much more active are formed in some reactors and contribute to the whole process. Again impossible for me to test but could explain why the results are better in some cases. It is easy to speculate but that does not give you real answers even if right.

Because of the many variables both in the compression stroke, combustion and in the reactor itself, I am still not convinced that there is nothing happening in both cases that promotes a better situation. I need more information before I could make any move from this position based on tests I have done.

The mono H topic I leave by choice at this moment. I will say that it has an important role but am not willing to get into it right know. There is some aspects of this topic that cause a lot of controversy, misunderstanding and my lack of understanding of the science prevents me from explaining results I have seen attributed to mono H, so will pass. It is a realm that needs a lot more investigation in my opinion for me to discus. Most of this is above my pay rate already. LOL

I beg to differ in the effects of monatomic hydrogen and the ortho/para hydrogen twins. Initial research is often a process of elimination. "We stand on the shoulders of giants", is a paraphrase that is often used in science, and we should not abandon the work that has gone before us.

The fact that monatomic hydrogen (mono H) cannot exist long in the conditions of pressure and temperature found in our generators and engines means it can be eliminated from the discussion. I discuss this in my next post.

The small energy differential between room temperature ortho/para hydrogen means the energy gained by converting from one to the other is trivial at the molar rates of production of our electrolysis units. Chasing down their reactivities and seeing as they are equal on the chemical level, we can eliminate them as a cause of any gains in efficiency and power. I discussed this in the above (previous posts).

However, regular H2, be it ortho or para, does split into free radicals. Those radicals are the reactive pre-cursors to complete combustion. I touched on this in the above previous posts.

I believe the secret lies in the creation of free radicals. There may be enough created in our generators or magnetic filters to pre-condition our fuel/air mix for improved combustion at the spark event. Maybe they have a long enough lifetime to make the transit, or there is a carrier mechanism that allows them to survive to enter the combustion chamber.

[myoldyourgold]

Ruty, I would have thought that you would have commented on this:


Many have stated that ortho bonds itself to the hydrocarbon molecule and if that is true then that is one change taking place in the compression stroke.

I should have added that it is also claimed that para does not. You seem to be equipped to make this fact of fiction.


"We stand on the shoulders of giants", is a paraphrase that is often used in science, and we should not abandon the work that has gone before us.


Well IMHO this is where science some times goes wrong. By standing on the shoulders of giants they some times tend to miss new discoveries made by the simple experimenters due to the fact there heads are in the clouds. LOL Science can not be ignored but it also should not be keeping you from seeing what is below the clouds. I only say this because a very good friend who has more then one sheep skin on his wall and is considerd a leader in his field told me that adding HHO to the combustion could not and would not yield any gain in fact a loss in efficiency. Loves to use the Myth Busters as an example. He refused to change his mind when I proved differently. He is still trying to figure out how I somehow was able to fool him with my demonstration. He has spent hours and the results are still the same. He finds no tricks and it has become an obsession with him to find something in my demistration that will prove me wrong. LOL He just can not get his head out of the clouds yet. I hope with all his efforts, even through they are misdirected, he might actually come up with some valuable information on why it works like it does. Time will tell. I have not been holding my breath though.

Some good stuff Rusty and we just have to all keep an open mind that on the practical side of things we might not always find a easy explanation the fits an existing science model. To many variables and to many tests being done that are not in a finely controlled lab situation make it very difficult.

[hhofox]

It is sad, but there are some people who can only see things one way, and one way only -even if the truth is laid out plainly before them. It is an utter waste of time to argue with such ones, as they rarely ever change their ways. To show the severity of this dilemma -even God has no use for people like those since they refuse to show humility. (Note that he does not force anyone to serve him, and it's their loss if they do not.)
"The first pig to squeal is the one that got hit." = "Who the cap fits, let them wear it."

Anyhow, can we get back to posting info, without all the bickering, please?

BTW...this goes for BOTH the Octane and Ruskin Filter threads.

[RustyLugNut]

Ruty, I would have thought that you would have commented on this:

I should have added that it is also claimed that para does not. You seem to be equipped to make this fact of fiction.

moyg (myoldyourgold), I think I have made my position clear that I think the para/ortho question has little bearing on our situation. If you have some good information from other than the pseudo science sources I keep getting in a net search, I would be appreciative. A good paper, weather it is a study or a lab report, usually has a prodigious amount of valuable information in the sources listing and footnotes. I will keep looking in classic science reports for anything that might apply to our situation. If you can post some of the sources or snippets of quotes that refer to the para/ortho question I would be appreciative. It may take time as the search slows down once we start poking into .edu's and .gov's and such.

And, I do not have a lab in my home or business that has the capability to do analytic chem tests or nuclear quantum tests.

I do have connections to several universities and a government forensic lab to run some of the tests of para/ortho existence, amount and reactivity. It is not as simple as walking up to them and giving them a pile of money. You must DEFINE the work or they will not know what to make of you. Once there is clarity, then there is the work of setting up the equipment to make your required tests. The time frame and the costs involved make it clear why it is important to look at the research that has come before so that we are not just simply reproducing old work.

Once there is a need for such tests, I will have to gather the funding either through direct means or through research granting and such.

Since talk is cheap, and thought is free (or should be), we can continue to discuss and gather data and previous studies and define our testing path.





Well IMHO this is where science some times goes wrong. By standing on the shoulders of giants they some times tend to miss new discoveries made by the simple experimenters due to the fact there heads are in the clouds. LOL Science can not be ignored but it also should not be keeping you from seeing what is below the clouds. I only say this because a very good friend who has more then one sheep skin on his wall and is considerd a leader in his field told me that adding HHO to the combustion could not and would not yield any gain in fact a loss in efficiency. Loves to use the Myth Busters as an example. He refused to change his mind when I proved differently. He is still trying to figure out how I somehow was able to fool him with my demonstration. He has spent hours and the results are still the same. He finds no tricks and it has become an obsession with him to find something in my demistration that will prove me wrong. LOL He just can not get his head out of the clouds yet. I hope with all his efforts, even through they are misdirected, he might actually come up with some valuable information on why it works like it does. Time will tell. I have not been holding my breath though.

Some good stuff Rusty and we just have to all keep an open mind that on the practical side of things we might not always find a easy explanation the fits an existing science model. To many variables and to many tests being done that are not in a finely controlled lab situation make it very difficult.

I do keep an open mind. That is why I am here on this forum. I am one of the science and engineering types that knows that this works. Believe me, this does not make me popular with my peers. They do think I am crazy.

And one must remember that science is a human endeavor to understand the physical world around us. Little by little, we creep up on this understanding. Questions become answers, become truth. When another question pops up, you do not abandon the previous truths or fall back to anarchy of thought. You build on the previous truths and move forward.

You use your acquaintance as an example of close minded academia. And yet, lay people fall into the same trap. They are not immune to the disease of narrow thought. Look at the posts on this forum. There is example after example of those that cling to their hollowed beliefs against all reason. Fact and reason. The physical world will present you with the facts. You just have to reason it out.

We both agree that HHO works. We just disagree HOW it works. And that is ok. I have a heavy science and engineering background to build on. I will approach the problem from my viewpoint. Others will take their unique experiences and move towards the answer, which is there, unmoving and waiting to be discovered.

[RustyLugNut]

It is sad, but there are some people who can only see things one way, and one way only -even if the truth is laid out plainly before them. It is an utter waste of time to argue with such ones, as they rarely ever change their ways. To show the severity of this dilemma -even God has no use for people like those since they refuse to show humility. (Note that he does not force anyone to serve him, and it's their loss if they do not.)
"The first pig to squeal is the one that got hit." = "Who the cap fits, let them wear it."

Anyhow, can we get back to posting info, without all the bickering, please?

BTW...this goes for BOTH the Octane and Ruskin Filter threads.

For some reason, people have this naive belief that just because someone disagrees with you, they must be out to "get you" and "bring you down".

Without dissent and solid discourse, one may never see the other side. And consequently, they may miss the answers they seek. Surrounding yourself with people that do nothing but agree with you leaves you vulnerable to self entrapment.

The discourse we are engaged in, just as long as it is carried out with reason, is what this parallel inquiry into HHO is all about. This discussion is needed. We can build HHO generators. We can install them. And we might see gains. And yet we don't understand them. The theory must parallel the practical. At some point, the theory becomes accepted principle and the practical is just an engineering exercise of application of these principles. That is the goal of this forum, if I read the title statement correctly.

[myoldyourgold]

moyg (myoldyourgold), I think I have made my position clear that I think the para/ortho question has little bearing on our situation.

I can not honestly confirm or deny your position on the ortho/para question. The reason being is because I have very strong practical evidence that is repeatable that shows that there is a change of some kind in the gas (both coming from the reactor and from a gas conditioner) that until I find some other explanation, that is reasonable and understandable, I find it hard to explain any other way but am totally open to the fact it is something other than the ortho/para question. There is really no disagreement here just a quest for the right answer.


We both agree that HHO works. We just disagree HOW it works. And that is ok. I have a heavy science and engineering background to build on. I will approach the problem from my viewpoint. Others will take their unique experiences and move towards the answer, which is there, unmoving and waiting to be discovered.

I am not sure at least in my mind that we disagree on anything really. We might just not understand each other based on our backgrounds and understanding of some of the processes. We both could be right or both wrong. LOL I have to admit that I have very few of the technical answers but when ever I go to academia I find it is way more trouble and have to counter way to much of their negativity. It just is not worth it in my experience in most cases where HHO is involved. I can hardly blame them though because of past and current scammers who promote total impossible explanations.

I agree that there are lay people that are no different than academia but in a lot of cases they have the excuse of lacking the ability to understand technical explanations, education, IQ, or what have you to understand some explanations. I think that when most or shown working models they are convinced even without understanding the science behind it. Academia on the other hand is much harder to convince unless you already have the answer or enough of the answer described in there own technical vocabulary. I am sure there are exceptions but not in my experience.

Everyone needs to continue working and we both agree an answer will eventually surface. When it really comes down to the bottom line the potential rewards of using HHO are enough and even though answers to some questions would be helpful they are not going to effect the use and experimenting that is on going in most cases.

[RustyLugNut]

I can not honestly confirm or deny your position on the ortho/para question. The reason being is because I have very strong practical evidence that is repeatable that shows that there is a change of some kind in the gas (both coming from the reactor and from a gas conditioner) that until I find some other explanation, that is reasonable and understandable, I find it hard to explain any other way but am totally open to the fact it is something other than the ortho/para question. There is really no disagreement here just a quest for the right answer.



I am not sure at least in my mind that we disagree on anything really. We might just not understand each other based on our backgrounds and understanding of some of the processes. We both could be right or both wrong. LOL I have to admit that I have very few of the technical answers but when ever I go to academia I find it is way more trouble and have to counter way to much of their negativity. It just is not worth it in my experience in most cases where HHO is involved. I can hardly blame them though because of past and current scammers who promote total impossible explanations.

I agree that there are lay people that are no different than academia but in a lot of cases they have the excuse of lacking the ability to understand technical explanations, education, IQ, or what have you to understand some explanations. I think that when most or shown working models they are convinced even without understanding the science behind it. Academia on the other hand is much harder to convince unless you already have the answer or enough of the answer described in there own technical vocabulary. I am sure there are exceptions but not in my experience.

Everyone needs to continue working and we both agree an answer will eventually surface. When it really comes down to the bottom line the potential rewards of using HHO are enough and even though answers to some questions would be helpful they are not going to effect the use and experimenting that is on going in most cases.

The problem is . . . if you continue to design and build and experiment to wrong principles, you hit a dead end and have wasted time and resources doing so. It might be fun and enjoyable for you, but that is another topic.

Why don't you continue the para/ortho question. Maybe even the monatomic hydrogen angle.

I will look into active radical production.

[myoldyourgold]

I have no further interest in monatomic and unless something comes up will not pursue that directly. I am more interested in the effects HHO has on the ICE so most of the work from now on will be real world results which is the best way to measure the changes made to the reactor or any part of the system, at least for me. Some long term testing is on going to establish reliability issues. Ortho/para or just better quality of gas based on changes to the reactor or a gas conditioner will be on going but some basics I doubt will change much. Efficiency is going to measured in MPG gain and not LPM of the reactor/generator. Percentages are misleading. After all this is what it is all about.

[myoldyourgold]

Lets get back to the topic of the Ruskin's patent or gas conditioner. None of the builds that I am aware of including my experiments followed the patent. Here are some things I found. Because we are using plastic pipe not metal and different sized magnets to mention only 2, the results might not be the same at all. I first increased the length and went to smaller magnets in length. This is not following the patent at all. The idea was to give the gas more increased exposure time and more changes of field per second. (24" compared to 12") This did seam to make a small difference. I am now looking at wrapping the whole thing in a few layers of aluminum tape. This is for two reasons. One the field that is generated is affecting other parts of the system negatively that are hard to relocate and two, this might work like a crude Faraday cage redirecting more of the energy back into the device. The next experiment is to place the magnets in a steel spring the fits tight in the pvc pipe and the magnets fitting tight in the spring. This idea might make assembly easier. I am open for suggestions.

Measuring the effect is the real problem for lack of expensive equipment, being away form my lab and in my case it only made sense by checking for any increased MPG over a reasonable length of time, multiple times and then compare to the same measurement over a similar length of time with the first version. The average was slightly better. Both were better than without but only marginally with everything being the same. There were other things done later that made for a larger difference that might have taken advantage of the changes to the gas but lets keep this simple.

Now if this is really worth it remains to be seen. It might not be worth the expensive. If possible lets keep why there seems to be more gains using a gas conditioner until there is more evidence that there really is. We can then hash out why if this is confirmed. Because the method or measuring is not that accurate and involves many variables like weather more tests need to be done by many different people to get an accurate picture or a better way of measuring. If it does not give you more MPG per amp it is no good.

[myoldyourgold]

For discussion..... in our total setup which does include some water injection I am thinking that with the right HHO reactor, a working gas conditioner ( I use this term instead of filter) there might be the possibility of creating methane gas and syngas in the compression stroke or even before. With all the additives, which might contribute, in our fuel this could be a possibility. This is just another possibility as to why we see the results we do?? Remember the charge in the intake also includes exhaust gas and crankcase gases. By varying and controlling these alone there are measurable differences when using HHO. Lots of things going on in a very short period of time both chemically and physically. This is where science should be able to help but there again it could be possible that this reaction is not one that has been studied or tested. Lots of variables involved and very complex. It might not fit into a standard mold. The catalytic effect that ortho or HHO in general, might have on all of this might be something more than is currently understood.
.

[RustyLugNut]

For discussion..... in our total setup which does include some water injection I am thinking that with the right HHO reactor, a working gas conditioner ( I use this term instead of filter) there might be the possibility of creating methane gas and syngas in the compression stroke or even before. With all the additives, which might contribute, in our fuel this could be a possibility. This is just another possibility as to why we see the results we do?? Remember the charge in the intake also includes exhaust gas and crankcase gases. By varying and controlling these alone there are measurable differences when using HHO. Lots of things going on in a very short period of time both chemically and physically. This is where science should be able to help but there again it could be possible that this reaction is not one that has been studied or tested. Lots of variables involved and very complex. It might not fit into a standard mold. The catalytic effect that ortho or HHO in general, might have on all of this might be something more than is currently understood.
.

This is precisely what I believe is going on with the addition of HHO in the combustion chamber pre combustion - the creation of reactive species which create a form of syngas or other simpler aromatics of fuel compounds. The fact many unleaded fuels have 10% ethanol which is easier to thermally decompose makes this a great possibility.

Classic studies have concentrated on the 4% and above addition of H2 gas and not on the sub 1% that we can inject with our HHO generators. But, classic theory supports what you have described, that the HHO can act like a REACTANT to facilitate a change in the fuel before the spark event. It doesn't have to be ortho or para and water has a great amount to do with it.