SMITH VW Touareg V6 Conversion

[Smith03Jetta]

I'm starting this thread for my VW Touareg. I hope that everybody who has enjoyed reading my Jetta Thread will enjoy this one as well.

Photos:

1. Front Grille of my Touareg.
2. Air Intake
3. Front with grille removed. It's easy. just push some tabs down and it pops out. I wish my Jetta was this easy...
4. Case is a tight fit to get it inside the grille...
5. But once it's in it has plenty of room.

[Smith03Jetta]

This vehicle is a 2004 VW Touareg. It has a Gross Vehicle Weight of about 6000 lbs. It's All wheel drive. It will do 150 mph easy. It has a 220 HP porche/audi engine. It has a K&N Air filter. No other mods except a towing package. It gets 14 - 15 mph pulling a trailer. It gets 18 to 19 around town. It gets 20 - mixed driving. It gets 22 - 23 on the interstate doing 65 mph. These are real numbers that I have verified prior to beginning this experiment.

1. Case from above.
2. Putting the grille back on to confirm fit.
3. Grill re-installed.
4. This is where I will mount my gas fitting.
5. View from the front, under the SUV. You can see my little girl's kittens. You can also see the skid plates under the SUV. The underside of the vehicle is aerodynamically designed to help with gas mileage. There are aircraft style cooling vents that use a venturi effect to direct cooling air toward hot items like the transmission components. The skid plates would normally keep vital cooling air from reaching these items.

[Painless]

Looking forward to reading about your next project, Smith03jetta.

I note that you're mounting the case on it's side? Will you be turning the electrode plates around also to keep them in the same aspect (i.e. thinnest view from the top down)?

[Smith03Jetta]

I designed these electrodes specifically so the case can be mounted on it's side or laying flat.

[webeopelas]

Smith,

Looked at pelican cases and they all seem to have a pressure relief valve on the front.

Do your cases have this valve? If so, what did you do to disable it?

[Smith03Jetta]

I removed the pressure relief valve and use that hole for one of my electrode bolts last time. I'll probably just seal it off this time or use it for my water fill hole. The later seems to be the best choice.

I'm re-posting the following photos from my plate build on the correct forum. I'll be deleting the posts from the Jetta thread.

I put together a whole new setup for my Touareg. I'll finish it up this week. Here are the photos to show off. Enjoy...

1st Photo is of the piece of stainless steel that I found in my shop. It was 14.25" x 25". I scribed my design on the plate and started cutting. I purchased a new fine-tooth blade that worked just fine. I waited to change the blade until I got a couple cuts in with the blade in photo 3.

2nd photo is of my Band Saw.

3rd photo is cutting the edge waste off the piece of steel. I tried to get as much surface area out of the piece of steel as possible.

4th photo is of the pieces after the were cut.

5th is my workbench break.

[Smith03Jetta]

Here are some more...

1st shows the break bending the plate.

2nd is setting up for the second bend.

3rd is after the second bend.

4th is all the bent plates lined up for inspection.

5th is a different angle. I decided not to go with that alternating design later as you will see.

[Smith03Jetta]

More of the same...

1st is a closeup of the drill holes.

2nd shows a closeup of the plates after 1/2 sanding is complete.

3rd shows sanding

4th shows sanding.

5 is the beginning of the assembly. Plates were cleaned prior to assembly with Citrus hand cleaner. It does a really nice job.

[Smith03Jetta]

More of the same......

1st another shot of the plates.

2nd another shot

3rd another shot

4th. plates are attached with Zip Ties. No bolts, no rivets. No hard work. I'm lazy....!!!

5th. Side View of plates.

[Smith03Jetta]

More... More... More...

1st is rear view of plates

2nd is measuring tape across plates for comparison.

3rd more measuring tape.

4th more measuring tape.

5th more measuring tape.

[Smith03Jetta]

Yet another post with more photos.

1st measurement of width of plates.

2nd plate setup inside of box.

3rd a side view of plates in box.

4th another view.

Unlike my previous electrolyzer this one was designed from the beginning to have plates that fit really nice inside the case. The plates are lower than the gasket. This case also has the added benefit of being able to turn it on end and still work just fine. I still need to take the bumper off my Touareg to find the best mounting location. Before I cut the hole for the gas hose, I will need to make sure how it will need to be mounted.

This setup has 260 sq/inches of gas producing surface. It should be able to put out 1 to 1.5 liter of gas with no problems. Comments and questions are welcome as always... I purchased the case at a dive shop in Marietta Ga.

That's all folks... For Now.

*** Since this post I found the best mounting location right behind the grille. It comes off easy with no screws holding the grille in place.

[scirockett]

wow.. it takes a certain kind of dude to mess around with a Treg!! it's not your typical automobile... electronic control of everything! glad to see you're getting good results!

[Smith03Jetta]

I lost count when I was looking for Oxygen Sensors.:D

If HHO will work on a Touareg it will work on ANYTHING in the world. The Touareg has one of the most advanced engines/transmissions/suspensions/electronics in the general consumer market. I really envy you guys tinkering on old Chevrolets and Toyotas and such.

Oh, BTW, the Air Conditioner Compressor is integrated into the Touareg Engine. It is always running. It does not stop running even if you turn off the air conditioner controls. There may be a bypass valve that helps conserve gas when it is not being used but it operates more like a heat pump instead of a traditional AC system.

This engine is also the first V6 engine that I've ever seen that has the intake on one side and the exhaust ports on the other side. It is set up like a Straight 6.

[TBill]

As you can see this is my first post so please be kind to a newbie!

In your design, the "u"s look to be approximately 1" wide and there are four in the total configuration yielding 260"2 surface area. Had you made them 3/4 or some narrower amount, you could have added another or maybe two more into the cofuguration thus adding additional surface area.

How do you determine "optimal" surface area for a design?

[Smith03Jetta]

This may be a funny answer but if you looked at the first photo where I started building these plates I was working with a fixed amount of sheet metal. I calculated the plate size based on the available sheet metal that I had laying around my shop.

I also was limited to 4 inches of cut width. My band saw would not cut anything wider than 4 inches. Lucky me it worked out.

[TBill]

Ha! Very scientific!:o

I also noticed that all four "u"s are neutrals. I've been reading through you Jetta thread.... is this the configuration that is best controlling heat?

I am getting ready for a 1989 K5 Blazer. This is a play truck and I drive it back and forth to the ranch. There's plenty of room to work, the complexity of the engine is minimal, but I'm in Texas and a trip is ~250 miles each way with temps in triple digits.

[Smith03Jetta]

Yes, All 4 "U"s are neutrals. I can't guarantee that this is the best configuration to reduce heat but the case in my Jetta does not get hot. It barely gets warm at all. I have yet to see a unit that puts out around 1 liter/minute that runs as cool.

[Smith03Jetta]

I finished building the HHO generator tonight. I did test it and got great results with the first attempt. I did not hook an ammeter to the box to see how many amps it was drawing but the box produced 1 liter in 50 seconds. That amounts to 1.2 liters a minute. I'm not exaclty sure how much NaOH I put in the water. I just sprinkled a few teaspoons in the water, stirred it up and turned it on. I fully intended on needing to add more NaOH to get it to produce enough gas to be meaningful.

I was pleasantly surprised.

I have some photos and Youtube Videos available...

I will post the Youtube links as soon as the videos are available.

Photos:

1. Drilling hold for gas fitting
2. Checking Gas fitting for size. Perfect.
3. Fitting in place.
4. Fitting from the inside.
5. Silicon on fitting because I could not find another plastic coated fitting. I'll try Lowes. I can't remember where I purchased the last one.

[Smith03Jetta]

More Photos of my stuff.

Photos:

1. Drilling the mounting holes
2. Cutting the rubber gaskets from an old inner tube.
3. Configuration as it will sit in the truck. (Door Closed of course)
4. Filling up with water and NaOH.
5. Producing Gas. This shot was within 3 or 4 seconds after turning it on.

[Smith03Jetta]

Another Photo. This is of the filler valve/funnel I made. I have one just like it on my Jetta HHO System. I will put a Water Level sensor on this case like I did the other one. That thing comes in handy. I never have to look to see where the water level is. BRILLIANT!!!

[Smith03Jetta]

I've got my YouTube Videos uploaded. Finally... Here are the links... If they don't come up immediately, please check back later. Sometimes they need time to process.

This video shows the first time I hooked up electricity to the case for testing it.
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This video shows me playing around with fire... No, REALLY! This method of testing in my video is perfectly safe. Warnings Included in Video.
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This is my first Volume test for the HHO Generator for my Touareg. 1 liter in 50 seconds or 1.2 liters/minute. I have not checked amp draw yet. I'll let you know.
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[djerickd]

Wow this is a sweet design!

[goatherder]

Agreed you are one hairy-chested MOFO for cutting into an expensive rig like that one. The design looks good though.

Since you seem to be a resident expert here, I need your opinion on this, so please take a look if you would:

http://picasaweb.google.com/oh.u8it2/UhMe/photo#5231355569053172706

Not to be a bother, but I intend to build a cell and I just want to cut the learing curve down if possible. Pic should be self-explanitory. Maybe not as off the cuff as the Friggenometer.

Thanks in advance.

[Smith03Jetta]

That design looks like it will work. Having the negative plate thicker will help keep it from wasting away too quickly.

[Painless]

Another Photo. This is of the filler valve/funnel I made. I have one just like it on my Jetta HHO System. I will put a Water Level sensor on this case like I did the other one. That thing comes in handy. I never have to look to see where the water level is. BRILLIANT!!!

Would you mind providing some more info on the water level sensor? This is an awesome idea, I'd be interested in where you sourced it from and how much etc.

Thanks!

Russ.

[Smith03Jetta]

I sourced it from the hardware store. It couldn't be more simple. It is simply a stainless steel screw.

That's all.

I had this flash of brilliance that I would drill a small hole in the top of my case and screw a stainless steel screw into the hole. The stainless steel screw needs to be only as long as your minimum water level. It also needs to be located away from the gas producing surfaces so you don't get voltage loss on your plates.

The ambient water in the case has a voltage charge that varies from 1 to 4 volts depending on how far away from the plates you go.

When the screw is in contact with the water it can carry a low voltage charge through a wire connected on the outside of the box. Run the wire inside your car and hook up a small low voltage light bulb and ground the other connector on the bulb. This light will burn dimly while the water level is at the desired level. When the water level drops the light will go out signaling that you need to add water. Water sloshes around during acceleration, turns and deceleration but you will soon figure that out by watching the light's brightness fluctuations.

This same principle can be used to activate a solenoid dripper that will slowly add water to the container from a reservoir every time the light goes dim or goes out. I'm thinking about making a setup like this for my Touareg so my wife doesn't have to add water. I can put in a water level switch like the Windshield washer fluid reservoir to let her know when to fill the Distilled water reservoir.

[ICEMAN.KCMO]

What about an LED? they dont need much voltage... also... how many amps are you drawing with this setup?

I have got my small setup to put out a little over 1LPM, but I will kick a 15 amp breaker.... I am going to run a little less Lye, but I would like to know what draw i can expect....

[Smith03Jetta]

I burned out 2 LEDs because i was giving it too much voltage without putting in an resistor. I learned that lesson.

[Smith03Jetta]

update on the Touareg HHO reactor.

I made a 3 part Youtube Video this afternoon to show the volume production and amperage.

It completely filled a 1 liter bottle in 54 seconds with only 15 amps. This is pretty cool considering that the last one I built for my Jetta only produces 920+ liters in 1 minute drawing 16 amps. Please enjoy the videos. They may not be available immediately because Youtube takes a few minutes to process the files.

Part 1 of 3:
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Part 2 of 3:
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Part 3 of 3:
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[BigTruck]

Great job! Can you provide us with any info about your HHO delivery system used in your Jetta? Airbox or intake? Effie or Extenders? ect.

[midnight1957]

Mr Smith,
A few questions about your generator.

1 What is the clearence between the top of your electrolyte and the top of your Pelican case?

2 Why do you not have your plates completely submerged, could you make a little more hho if you did?

3 I couldn't tell from your video but how do you have your amp gauge connected got the test?

Thanks and have a Blessed day,
Wade

[Smith03Jetta]

My delivery method is simply a 1/4" hose going from the Reactor to the plastic air plenum as close to the intake manifold as I can get. I'm not currently using a bubbler.

I'm not using an EFIE. I am using an O2 Sensor extender. The one engine code that I keep getting when the car first starts up is the O2 Sensor signal is slow to respond. I still have not figured out the correct adaptation channel setting to make the Lambda regulation set correctly. That should eventually fix that problem. I'm able to log and reset the engine codes while I'm driving down the road. That's cool!

[BoyntonStu]

[QUOTE=Smith03Jetta;7543]update on the Touareg HHO reactor.

I made a 3 part Youtube Video this afternoon to show the volume production and amperage.

It completely filled a 1 liter bottle in 54 seconds with only 15 amps. This is pretty cool considering that the last one I built for my Jetta only produces 920+ liters in 1 minute drawing 16 amps. Please enjoy the videos. They may not be available immediately because Youtube takes a few minutes to process the files.


5.37 MMW Darn good!

BoyntonStu

[Smith03Jetta]

Mr Smith,
A few questions about your generator.

1 What is the clearence between the top of your electrolyte and the top of your Pelican case?

2 Why do you not have your plates completely submerged, could you make a little more hho if you did?

3 I couldn't tell from your video but how do you have your amp gauge connected got the test?

Thanks and have a Blessed day,
Wade

Wade, thanks for the observation. My low water level is seriously reducing my gas output.

The distance between the top of the plates and the top of the case is 2.250 inches. If I fill up the water level to where it should be I will have 2 inches of air.

I've calculated the volume of water in the case. 1 Gallon Exactly = 231 cubic inches. I've calculated the interior volume of the case = 422.83. That is only 54.63% full. I have 5.93 inches of water in the case. I have 3.94 inches of air space above the water level. That means that I have 1.69 inches of potential gas producing plate length sticking out of the water. That calculates to 67.6 sq/inches of plate surface that is not making any gas. I'll go back and do another test with the plates completely submerged. That should increase the amp draw and gas production both.

I've done two volume tests with the current water level. One measured 1 liter at 51 seconds. The second was 1 liter at 54 seconds. I took the average of the two and came up with an average gas production of 1.143 liters/minute.

Considering I'm only using 192.4 Sq inches of plate now, I divided 192.4 by 1.143 liters/minute and got a factor of 168.33. I then divided 67.6 (Unused Plate Space) by 168.33 and got the result .402.

That means that right now I'm drawing 15 amps and getting 1.143 liters/minute. After I completely fill the case with water I will be getting .402 liters of extra gas. That will add up to 1.545 liters of gas per minute. I'm not sure what will happen in the AMP department but I'll find out tomorrow when I test it again.

The ammeter has two posts on the back. One goes to the car's positive post. The other goes to the positive terminal on the Pelican case. If you hook it up backwards it will show negative amps.

[Smith03Jetta]

Thanks for the compliment, STU.

[Smith03Jetta]

After I created the Youtube videos last night I decided to go back out to the Touareg with the Laptop. I plugged it in and did a pretty extensive diagnostic on my vehicle. That vehicle is awesome. I could look on my computer screen and see everything.

I could see whether or not individual seat belts were fastened. I could the pressure in bars in my individual tires. I could see the angle of my front tires and the incline angle that my vehicle was sitting on. I could see the fuel level to the 1/10 of a gallon. I did find that my front tire was slightly low on air. .4 bars too low to be exact. I also found that I have a bad drivers side airbag sensor and that my left headlight has an intermittent short. I'll need to get those looked at. I've also got an intermittent short in one of my left front speaker wires. I rarely drive the vehicle and my wife has not reported any of this stuff to me.

The vehicle is completely fly by wire. Everything is computer controlled down to the brightness of the Xenon headlights to the floorboard illumination lights which are set at 30% by the way.

In addition to all the cool stuff, I was able to test the fuel adaptation channels to make sure I would be able to tune the engine after I install the new HHO Generator. It should be no problem.

The problems that I have to address with this car:

Install ammeter, voltmeter, fuse and wiring so that they are integrated into the car's dash. Nothing gaudy will pass my wife's inspection. I tend to agree with her.

Engineer a system to keep the HHO reactor topped off with water automatically. I can't expect her to stop and fill the water every time an indicator light goes off/on.

Purchase her a laptop computer for emergency adaptation channel resets in case the HHO reactor quits working when I'm not around. I think she will be more open to the idea of me putting this explosive device in her daily driver if I get her a "present" to go along with it. She's been bugging me for a new laptop for a while now.

[ICEMAN.KCMO]

what gauge of SS are you using??? I am using 16 in my designs.... So you are putting out 1.1 Lpm at 15 amps? how many amps will you be drawing when you put out more?? What are the measurements of your pieces? How much gap is there when you bend them?

[HomeGrown]

After I created the Youtube videos last night I decided to go back out to the Touareg with the Laptop. I plugged it in and did a pretty extensive diagnostic on my vehicle.

Mr. Smith, are you using VAG-COM software? I had the full version when I had my A4 a few years ago. Really nice software.

[Smith03Jetta]

I'm using 18 gauge 316L Stainless. The large gap bends are approximately 1 inch. It's not exact. Close is good enough. Go back and read the previous posts. Look at the photos I provide measurements. Exact measurements.

I don't know how many amps I will be drawing when I'm done. I'll let you know.

I'm using the free version (Limited) VAG-COM software to do diagnosis and Lemmiwinks to change the adaptation channels.

[Smith03Jetta]

I've done a second test with my cell full of water. Remember, the last test did not have a full charge of water. Details are a few posts back. With the cell full of water/NaOH, my ammeter reading was 20 amps and it produced 1.5 liters/minute.

15 amps = 1.14 liters
20 amps = 1.5 liters

That averages 75.5 ml/amp 75.5 milliliters per amp... at 13 volt supply.

[hahaboy]

Mr. smith, your water will boiling after 1 or 2 hours running ?

[shortstack]

did you ever get that "low water level" sensor figured out, if so i would love to see some pics.

[LinChiek]

did you ever get that "low water level" sensor figured out, if so i would love to see some pics.
here's a water level buzzer.....

http://www.electronics-lab.com/projects/sensors/033/schematic.gif
http://www.electronics-lab.com/projects/sensors/033/index.html

however, it will only buzz when the water level reaches the water sensor pcb...

if only someone can modify it to buzz (or start the reservoir pump) when the water level in the HHO Generator drop to certain level.... :confused:

since i've not much knowledge in electronic, i can't help..... :( :o

[Smith03Jetta]

I have not tested this container for more than 30 minutes. I will do a lengthy test run to see what temperature it reaches. My other case, however does not get hot.

My case uses 1.5 gallons of water. On my Jetta reactor I have to add about 8 ounces of water a week. I drive 30 to 45 minutes to work. Same time coming home.

[hahaboy]

I did tried my HHO generator, after 2 hours running the water is boiling.

[Smith03Jetta]

As I mentioned in my earlier posts, My design does not boil water. It does not get hot. If you are boiling water then you either have too much electrolyte, a short or you have a bad design. My design works. Even with the water saturated with NaOH it does not overheat.

(((*)))

I installed the HHO Case in my Touareg last night and I leaned out my fuel mixture with my laptop. Here are my observations.

I did notice a decrease in power as I leaned the fuel mixture out. The amount of HHO being generated may be helping the fuel economy significantly at lower RPM but at higher RPM I can only notice maybe a 1 or 2 mpg difference. That's maybe 5 or 10 % increase in Gas mileage.

This engine is a 3.2 liter V6. That's a pretty good step up from my 2.0 liter engine I was testing with in my Jetta.

The adaptation channel fuel tuning is doing what they are supposed to but I don't think I'm making enough HHO to affect the engine significantly at speeds above 50 mph. It's effectively leaning out my engine too much at higher RPM to make me feel comfortable. I'll have to richen up the fuel mixture to keep it safe.

I'm not getting any check Engine Lights or Codes yet. I'm just feeling loss of power at takeoff and I'm not seeing much gas mileage savings on the Real Time Fuel Indicators In-Dash. Maybe the indicators are being confused by the HHO. I don't know yet.

It looks like 1.5 liters of HHO is not enough for my 3.2 Liter/V6 Touareg.

I wonder what would happen if I put the larger HHO case in my Jetta. I wonder if it would fit??? :)

[Smith03Jetta]

I would theorize that some people's cells overheat from current jumping through the water to get to nearby plates. My design controls that. The only voltage jumping in my cells is through the tightly controlled gas producing gaps.

[Smith03Jetta]

Darn!

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to drive down the road diddling the controls for max MPG?

In my car there is an instant MPG gauge.

When I am driving with cruise control set at 65 and getting 29 MPG, when I begin to go uphill, the MPG instantaneously drops to about 22 MPG or so.

If I turn the cruise control off and coast uphill, the MPG will go even higher than 29 as the car slows down.

Wouldn't this information be useful for testing the Hydroxy effect?

BoyntonStu

My Touareg has this type of instantaneous MPG meter as well as one that calculates a running average. It also has a calculation that tells me how many miles I have left on the tank of gas.

With the ECU set to "STOCK" - No setting changes... I did some tests yesterday evening. I did a test run up my "Test Road" at exactly 60 mph. First run was without HHO. Plain stock vehicle.

Second run was with HHO turned on. Every time I turned on the HHO stream my instantaneous and average MPG dropped 5 or 6 mpg within a matter of seconds. It dropped as much as 10 mpg some times. MPG meter would go back to normal a couple seconds after I turned the HHO switch off.

The only way I could get this to stop was to lean out my Fuel Ratio above the 20% mark. That's just to lean for my tastes, especially at high speeds. I am not convinced that 1.5 liters of HHO will protect my engine from Lean Detonation at 4000 or 5000 rpms. I'm sure as heck not about to find out. I can't imagine what the cost would be to replace the 3.2 liter VW Touareg Engine. Even some minor repairs would be very costly.

BTW, there are 4 or more O2 Sensors prior to the Catalytic Converter. I think there's on on each exhaust port coming out of the engine.

I did a temperature "Feel" after 50 minute of drive time. The box was not even warm. It was pulling over 20 amps the entire time. 14 gauge twisted positive wire was barely warm. I'm using a battery ground cable to the frame on the negative terminal of the Case.

[BoyntonStu]

My Touareg has this type of instantaneous MPG meter as well as one that calculates a running average. It also has a calculation that tells me how many miles I have left on the tank of gas.

With the ECU set to "STOCK" - No setting changes... I did some tests yesterday evening. I did a test run up my "Test Road" at exactly 60 mph. First run was without HHO. Plain stock vehicle.

Second run was with HHO turned on. Every time I turned on the HHO stream my instantaneous and average MPG dropped 5 or 6 mpg within a matter of seconds. It dropped as much as 10 mpg some times. MPG meter would go back to normal a couple seconds after I turned the HHO switch off.

The only way I could get this to stop was to lean out my Fuel Ratio above the 20% mark. That's just to lean for my tastes, especially at high speeds. I am not convinced that 1.5 liters of HHO will protect my engine from Lean Detonation at 4000 or 5000 rpms. I'm sure as heck not about to find out. I can't imagine what the cost would be to replace the 3.2 liter VW Touareg Engine. Even some minor repairs would be very costly.

BTW, there are 4 or more O2 Sensors prior to the Catalytic Converter. I think there's on on each exhaust port coming out of the engine.

I did a temperature "Feel" after 50 minute of drive time. The box was not even warm. It was pulling over 20 amps the entire time. 14 gauge twisted positive wire was barely warm. I'm using a battery ground cable to the frame on the negative terminal of the Case.

I thank you for doing this test.

In Science we learn from negative as well from positive.

An observation that you reported was that your instant MPG system 'sees' your hydroxy. I consider this information interesting and exciting.

There are many possibilities to explore.

When you leaned your mixture to above the 20% level, however briefly, was the resulting MPG higher than without the Hydroxy?

Perhaps you are on the right track to increase production to avoid lean detonation.


Good work!

BoyntonStu

[Smith03Jetta]

I may not have been clear. I only leaned the fuel mixture out to 20% when I was using Hydroxy. I didn't think it was a good idea to run that lean without some assistance from the hydroxy, no matter what amount it was.

Don't get me wrong, I did notice some significant gas mileage savings at lower speeds but I REALLY don't like to drive that slow. I'm talking about an increase from 16 to 24 mpg at around 45 mph. By the time I got up to 65 mph I was only getting maybe 1 or 2 mpg difference.

Some people would say that increasing my MPG from 16 to 24 at 45 mpg was significant. It is significant if you like to drive 45 mph. For me that isn't acceptable because the benefits tapered off at highway speeds. Maybe if I was producing more than 2 liters/minute I could see some benefits.

The main problem is that I don't drive that vehicle very often. I'm not used to paying attention to the gas mileage it gets under different conditions. The tests I did was purely based on the MPG Readouts in-dash.

I didn't run any long term tests on the Touareg. I also noticed that once I hooked up permanant wires the amp draw wavered between 22 and 28 amps. 14 amps. Low temperature as usual.

[Smith03Jetta]

I will go out on a limb here and suggest that HHO does not MAKE you get better gas mileage.:eek: What is my rationalle?:confused:

:DHere's how to get better gas mileage. This method is based on a modern fuel injected engine with knock sensors and the ability to retard timing to avoid detonation.

1. Electronically Lean out the Fuel flow to the engine (Regardless of the method used, EFIE, MAF, MAP, Laptop managent. The engine will start burning lean so the engine will automatically retard the timing to avoid lean valve pinging / Detonation. This will result in better gas mileage at reduced engine power. This is not a good condition for an engine to run in for very long. Engine damage can result.

2. Now add 1 liter of HHO/minute to the 2.0 liter engine. The HHO corrects the lean condition that is causing the engine knocking. The engine smoothes out and the engine timing resets to the correct position automatically.

3. You now have reduced dependency on Gasoline. You can run your engine intentionally lean and use HHO as a bandaid to keep down the pinging. Higher Octane rating reduces pinging.

If you don't agree with my suggestions, pump some 87 octane in a vehicle that requires 91 or 93 octane and after a few miles stomp on the gas. You will hear valve noise. The lower octane rating lets the fuel burn quicker (Same effect with less fuel in the cylinder. It burns up quicker) The Higher Octane rating extends the burn time so the engine runs smoother and does not knock, ping, detonate. The HHO acts as an octane booster for ultra-lean fuel/air mixtures.:cool:

I think lots of people including myself have been operating under a misconception. What is that misconception? "HHO IMPROVES YOUR GAS MILEAGE!"

I don't believe it for a minute.

On a modern computer controlled vehicle adding HHO will instantly decrease your gas mileage. It is a fact. I've observed it on both of my vehicles. They are both VWs. Both have advanced computer controls. Drive by wire systems.

After introducing the HHO and recording the resulting lower gas mileage results, you are then tasked with leaning out the gasoline to reach the same point you started at. It is then up to you how much leaner you wish to make the fuel mixture to get a measurable MPG improvement.

WHY DO I SAY WHAT I'm SAYING?

I did some risky testing over the last few days to see what would happen. First I set my Computer settings back to STOCK on both my test vehicles. I then did MPG tests on BOTH without HHO. I then did test runs with STOCK computer settings + HHO. On both cars I noticed a reduction in gas mileage. That tells me that without a doubt that HHO does not improve gas mileage on modern computer controlled cars.

I then leaned out my fuel mixture about 15% while Running HHO. This resulted in bringing my Gas mileage back to normal levels. My recorded MPG increases were noticed after I decreased my fuel adaptation channel to -19.5% (I leaned my fuel out another 4.5%). This resulted in an increase in Gas mileage to around 32 mpg in my car from 26 with HHO and no fuel setting mods.

I am now reducing my fuel mixture even further to see what the MAX gas mileage result I'm capable of achieving on my car. The Adaptation Channels on my primary Fuel System stops at -25%. That's as far as I can go lean without purchasing some expensive software. I'm running my car this lean intentionally for a couple days so I can get some accurate gas mileage readings.

Here are some numbers on my Jetta and Touareg. I'll give you what I've got.

Jetta 2.0 liter engine:
Stock with no HHO or mods = 24-25 mpg
O2 Extender + .4 liters HHO = 27.5 mpg
O2 Extender + MAF Enhancer + HHO = 29.5
O2 Extender + .7 liters HHO = 27.5 mpg
O2 Extender + .7 liters HHO + MAF Enhancer = 32 mpg
O2 Extender + .920 liters HHO + (-19.5% lean fuel mod) = 32 mpg (No MAF Enhancer)
O2 Extender + .920 liters HHO + (-25% lean fuel mod) = To be determined...

Touareg 3.2 liter engine:
Stock with no HHO or Mods = 19.5 mpg
Stock with 1.5 liters HHO = 12 to 14 mpg. (Decrease)
Stock with 1.5 liters HHO + (-19.5% lean fuel mod) = 19.5 - 19.8 mpg.
Stock with 1.5 liters HHO + (-25% lean fuel mod) = "I don't know yet. I haven't tested it."

The reason why I removed the MAF Enhancer is I don't want to have to twist knobs and flip switches all the time to get better gas mileage. It's annoying and can cause my engine to go into detonation if I adjust the signal voltage too low.

[mario brito]

you really got my respect mr smith !

either the info is good or bad, you report it ! i like that !

as i said before, we have to forget the idea that all cars will get MPG improvements from HHO. this is an important point to consider.

all i can say right now, is that it works with my car. i did not toutch any O2 sensor, ECU, or anything else. i'm only giving 100ml/minute because i still cannot control heat rising, so i keep the production low. i have to work with what i can get, and my money can buy. still, i solved the sealing problem, connections problems, case problem and a few others issues.

i always put the same precise fuel amount. i always done 100-105 km with that fuel. with just 100ml/minute, i'm doing 120-125 km for a few weeks now. so, for me, it works and i'm going to try a new unit that makes 200ml/minute and heats less next weekend. i hope the results will improve, but lets wait and see :)

i find it odd that not a single menber has already replyed your last post.
we have to face bad news and not ignore it. this is important info !

thanks

thanks

[BoyntonStu]

I will go out on a limb here and suggest that HHO does not MAKE you get better gas mileage.:eek: What is my rationalle?:confused:

:DHere's how to get better gas mileage. This method is based on a modern fuel injected engine with knock sensors and the ability to retard timing to avoid detonation.

1. Electronically Lean out the Fuel flow to the engine (Regardless of the method used, EFIE, MAF, MAP, Laptop managent. The engine will start burning lean so the engine will automatically retard the timing to avoid lean valve pinging / Detonation. This will result in better gas mileage at reduced engine power. This is not a good condition for an engine to run in for very long. Engine damage can result.

2. Now add 1 liter of HHO/minute to the 2.0 liter engine. The HHO corrects the lean condition that is causing the engine knocking. The engine smoothes out and the engine timing resets to the correct position automatically.

3. You now have reduced dependency on Gasoline. You can run your engine intentionally lean and use HHO as a bandaid to keep down the pinging. Higher Octane rating reduces pinging.

If you don't agree with my suggestions, pump some 87 octane in a vehicle that requires 91 or 93 octane and after a few miles stomp on the gas. You will hear valve noise. The lower octane rating lets the fuel burn quicker (Same effect with less fuel in the cylinder. It burns up quicker) The Higher Octane rating extends the burn time so the engine runs smoother and does not knock, ping, detonate. The HHO acts as an octane booster for ultra-lean fuel/air mixtures.:cool:

I think lots of people including myself have been operating under a misconception. What is that misconception? "HHO IMPROVES YOUR GAS MILEAGE!"

I don't believe it for a minute.

On a modern computer controlled vehicle adding HHO will instantly decrease your gas mileage. It is a fact. I've observed it on both of my vehicles. They are both VWs. Both have advanced computer controls. Drive by wire systems.

After introducing the HHO and recording the resulting lower gas mileage results, you are then tasked with leaning out the gasoline to reach the same point you started at. It is then up to you how much leaner you wish to make the fuel mixture to get a measurable MPG improvement.

WHY DO I SAY WHAT I'm SAYING?

I did some risky testing over the last few days to see what would happen. First I set my Computer settings back to STOCK on both my test vehicles. I then did MPG tests on BOTH without HHO. I then did test runs with STOCK computer settings + HHO. On both cars I noticed a reduction in gas mileage. That tells me that without a doubt that HHO does not improve gas mileage on modern computer controlled cars.

I then leaned out my fuel mixture about 15% while Running HHO. This resulted in bringing my Gas mileage back to normal levels. My recorded MPG increases were noticed after I decreased my fuel adaptation channel to -19.5% (I leaned my fuel out another 4.5%). This resulted in an increase in Gas mileage to around 32 mpg in my car from 26 with HHO and no fuel setting mods.

I am now reducing my fuel mixture even further to see what the MAX gas mileage result I'm capable of achieving on my car. The Adaptation Channels on my primary Fuel System stops at -25%. That's as far as I can go lean without purchasing some expensive software. I'm running my car this lean intentionally for a couple days so I can get some accurate gas mileage readings.

Here are some numbers on my Jetta and Touareg. I'll give you what I've got.

Jetta 2.0 liter engine:
Stock with no HHO or mods = 24-25 mpg
O2 Extender + .4 liters HHO = 27.5 mpg
O2 Extender + MAF Enhancer + HHO = 29.5
O2 Extender + .7 liters HHO = 27.5 mpg
O2 Extender + .7 liters HHO + MAF Enhancer = 32 mpg
O2 Extender + .920 liters HHO + (-19.5% lean fuel mod) = 32 mpg (No MAF Enhancer)
O2 Extender + .920 liters HHO + (-25% lean fuel mod) = To be determined...

Touareg 3.2 liter engine:
Stock with no HHO or Mods = 19.5 mpg
Stock with 1.5 liters HHO = 12 to 14 mpg. (Decrease)
Stock with 1.5 liters HHO + (-19.5% lean fuel mod) = 19.5 - 19.8 mpg.
Stock with 1.5 liters HHO + (-25% lean fuel mod) = "I don't know yet. I haven't tested it."

The reason why I removed the MAF Enhancer is I don't want to have to twist knobs and flip switches all the time to get better gas mileage. It's annoying and can cause my engine to go into detonation if I adjust the signal voltage too low.

Bravo! Bravo!

Real and most believable honest data that makes complete sense!

In case you didn't notice, you apparently accidentally discovered the gains dues to LPM, MAF and Oxygen.

Perhaps a dynamic computer control based on RPM and load would give the maximum results?


You are doing terrific work for all of us, and I greatly appreciate it.


Keep up your most interesting work.


BoyntonStu

P.S. Perhaps the the group should adopt this attitude:

Add Hydroxy to your fuel injected car and do nothing else and your mileage will decrease.

However if you make best use of it by leaning the mixture you WILL get improved MPG".

No pain, no gain.

[EltonBrandd]

Lower octane fuel will ignite sooner than 93 octane. In fact the pinging noise is caused by an slow "sloppy" burn. The lower octane fuel doesn't burn completely due to the lower compression created by the fuel burning prior to the power stroke reaching peak compression. Rather could be multiple burns, and causes the piston to rattle which is the noise you hear. I've seen several cars with the latest engine management systems that cant detect a cheap gas ping. Higher octane gas in a higher compression engine will burn in one nice tight flame. That being said I think the addition of the hho in a lean engine will actually help the fuel burn at once in a nice complete burn pattern. Just my thoughts.

[Omega]

There's a lot of info to chew on here.

I'm still at the simple level with about .3 to .4 liters per minute and an O2 extender. I have seen 1.5 to 2.0 mpg improvement consistently. I'm really squeamish to lean out the motor because I can't afford to hurt the only car I own. I think more HHO is in order for my application before I lean out the motor.

Thanks for all the hard work, Smith03Jetta.

[HYDROTEKPRO]

THIS, :rolleyes: is exactly why I LOVE Water4Gas.com. Their technical support for their customers is unlimited, which is very cool!

Their design of HHO systems may not make the most LPM (Liters Per Minute) of oxyhydrogen gas, but, they have already done all this trial & error stuff, and they've got it all worked out already, as far as making it work in vehicles, both old and new!!:)

Your LPM is not as important as, how well you can put it to use: MPG gain, Performance gain, Emissions reduction, Clean motor oil, etc., etc. On many, if not most vehicles today, HHO is worthless until you solve the problem of dealing with the pre-catalytic oxygen sensor(s) CORRECTLY.

There's a municipal police department somewhere around South Carolina I believe, that is having the usual excellent results with Water4Gas. Their mayor is now an experimenter, like the rest of us!!:D And he's putting more and more of these systems on his own cars, and their city cars to save gas with their limited budget!

I learned soooo much from Water4Gas.com, it's ridiculous. For that $97 bucks that some people squak at, it's a joke. You get probably 5 to 10 times your money's worth in actual honest, up-to-date, usable information and technical support!

Add that to the information within this forum, and you've practically got a Master's Degree in vehicular HHO systems!

I still refer to my Water4Gas information online, and I still learn either things I overlooked before (because there's soo much), or new information from their worldwide network of happy customers/experimenters!

Smith03Jetta, good luck with your VW's. I'm sure you're probably very close to making it work how well you'd like. And your contributions to this forum also outnumber most of the rest of us. So thank you very much for that!

For that, all I can say is, excellent job for putting in sooo many hours, and thank you for keeping all of us in that loop!

[mneste8718]

Lower octane fuel will ignite sooner than 93 octane. In fact the pinging noise is caused by an slow "sloppy" burn. The lower octane fuel doesn't burn completely due to the lower compression created by the fuel burning prior to the power stroke reaching peak compression. Rather could be multiple burns, and causes the piston to rattle which is the noise you hear. I've seen several cars with the latest engine management systems that cant detect a cheap gas ping. Higher octane gas in a higher compression engine will burn in one nice tight flame. That being said I think the addition of the hho in a lean engine will actually help the fuel burn at once in a nice complete burn pattern. Just my thoughts.

93 octane is not any higher 'quality' than 87 or 89, it is just different. You talk about ping (knock) as if you should use 87 octane in a car made for 93 octane. Of course that is going to cause problems. Engines are designed for specific fuels. With higher octane, you can run higher compression because the fuel is less explosive under higher pressure.

When an engine knocks (rattles the piston), what has happened is that the fuel has preignited before the spark could do it. This does not mean that the fuel doesn't get a complete burn, it does but at the wrong time relative to top dead center.

I'm still trying to decide if 87 octane is better than 93 octane. Reason being is that 87 octane is actually more explosive and can more readily do a complete burn than the 93 octane with its longer hydrocarbon chains. It comes down to how much more does higher compression help in making power rather than more explosive fuel (which would definitely require lower compression and probably more retarded timing than 93).

And so anyone who has an engine made for 87 octane, only use 87 because you will get the most out of your engine that way as the spark ignition timing is set for the more explosive fuel allowing for a more complete burn compared to if you put 93 into it which will most likely not get a complete burn.

[Smith03Jetta]

I've just realized something important about my Touareg. My wife has been putting 89 octane fuel in it to save a few bucks. It is an engine that's made for 91+ octane. In order to get some more accurate MPG Results with that vehicle I will need to run the 89 octane fuel out and fill up next time with 91 octane.

I'm sure this is having some effect (Positive or Negative) on my results. I'm not sure if it is a good thing or a bad thing right now.

The Jetta results from my previous post are very accurate, however. What happened happened in the Touareg but I would like to re-do the test on the recommended fuel.

More to come.

[Omega]

93 octane is not any higher 'quality' than 87 or 89, it is just different. You talk about ping (knock) as if you should use 87 octane in a car made for 93 octane. Of course that is going to cause problems. Engines are designed for specific fuels. With higher octane, you can run higher compression because the fuel is less explosive under higher pressure.

When an engine knocks (rattles the piston), what has happened is that the fuel has preignited before the spark could do it. This does not mean that the fuel doesn't get a complete burn, it does but at the wrong time relative to top dead center.

I'm still trying to decide if 87 octane is better than 93 octane. Reason being is that 87 octane is actually more explosive and can more readily do a complete burn than the 93 octane with its longer hydrocarbon chains. It comes down to how much more does higher compression help in making power rather than more explosive fuel (which would definitely require lower compression and probably more retarded timing than 93).

And so anyone who has an engine made for 87 octane, only use 87 because you will get the most out of your engine that way as the spark ignition timing is set for the more explosive fuel allowing for a more complete burn compared to if you put 93 into it which will most likely not get a complete burn.

Congrats, mneste8718! I'm glad that there are some people out there who understand this. People are SO confused about octane rating. I've even talked with engineers that didn't have a clue and swore that 93 octane contained more "power" than 87 octane. Oh my gosh!!

It's great to see this addressed! :)

[Smith03Jetta]

I've got two words for everybody...

"PARTIALLY HYDROGENATED"

[Q-Hack!]

I've got two words for everybody...

"PARTIALLY HYDROGENATED"

eww.... I prefer whole milk myself.

[mario brito]

i don't know if this info is important or not, but here it goes :

here in Portugal we only have two types of gas - 95 and 98 octanes.

my engine is a renault 1.2L V4 60HP ( year 1996 ). i do not notice any change in engine running when i change from 95 to 98 or the other way. with 98 octanes, i get a little more power from the engine and i can get a little better MPG. when i run with HHO, the engine sounds very smooth and works perfectly. with just 100ml/minute i don't notice any change in power, only better MPG.

hope this helps in any way.

thanks

[Q-Hack!]

I can see the octane issue being one that can differ between vehicles. Even vehicles of the same make/model/year. Just because your vehicle is designed for a certain level of octane doesn't mean that will be the best choice. Especially once you start adding HHO. The only way to know for sure is to test a couple of points in each direction and see which is better.

[BoyntonStu]

Adding Hydroxy will LOWER MPG unless MAP/MAF enhanced.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvpAJpEmKlA&feature=related

Great set of videos!!

Conclusion:

Hydroxy works IF it is implemented correctly.

BoyntonStu

[Smith03Jetta]

Local HHO news story.

http://news.mywebpal.com/news_tool_v2.cfm?pnpid=722&show=archivedetails&ArchiveID=1378181&om=1

[Smith03Jetta]

I have an update. Stay tuned....

[overtaker]

tease......

[Smith03Jetta]

Here's the update I promised. Please read, this in interesting.

Something interesting has happened to my Touareg. I mentioned a week ago that my wife had been running a lower octane fuel when I did the last gas mileage test. I also said that I would run all that gas out and fill back up with premium gasoline. I did just that. The last two times we got gas I made sure we got premium. Today I topped off the tank with $50.00 of gasoline at $3.53 a gallon in Tunnel Hill, GA. Midnight Oil was out of everything but 87 octane but Kangaroo had a good price too on 93.

Here's what happened when I decided to run HHO in my Touareg with NO ECU CHANGES running 93 octane fuel.

My fuel mileage actually increased to 27-27.5 mpg on the highway between exits 345 and 336 on I-75 in Georgia. That's a 9 mile test. Mileage never dropped below 26 mpg. Went as high as 29 mpg.

I decided to drive on from Exit 333 down to 328 with the HHO turned off. That's 5 miles. The mileage dropped to 19-21 mpg and never got above 22 mpg at any time. I turned around at exit 328 and drove back north to Exit 336 with the HHO Turned on. The MPG gauge went back up again to 26 mpg. Driving north was slightly uphill so I'm not surprised that it dropped from 27.5 to 26 mpg.

I did some shopping at Walmart and drove on home. Up hill, down hill, around curves etc. My speed was about 60 mph. My mileage dropped to 24-25 mpg. I talked to my wife who was with me and she said that for a while now she has been watching the MPG (Since I have been doing HHO Testing it's sort of been an obsession). She told me that she normally gets 18.5 mpg on the trip home from Walmart.

Well my test shows me that adding HHO to my Touareg increases my Gas mileage from 20 (Without HHO) to 27 (With HHO). That's 7 mpg increase. 35% increase. I just don't understand this because the last time I did this test my MPG instantly went down every time I turned it on. The only thing I can think of that may have caused this was the fact that the vehicle was running on lower octane fuel that ignites easier. This vehicle adjusts the ignition timing when it runs lower octane fuel to avoid engine knocking. I'm speculating that when the HHO ignited, it set off the fuel while the pistons were still compressing. This would have put a load on the engine similar to pulling a trailer or going uphill.

I know of nothing else to do but to do the test again for longer distances. I am planning a drive to Atlanta and back. I'll do the drive and see what the gas mileage does for over 100 miles. That should give me a better idea of what's going on.

Again, I'm slightly confused as to why and how this has happened.

I think it would be interesting to log the engine data output for analysis. I'd like to put the vehicle on a dyno but it's an all wheel drive vehicle. I don't know anybody that has a dyno built for all wheel drive vehicles.

[BoyntonStu]

While driving home from my son's house at cruise on 60, with no HHO I saw 35-42 Instantaneous MPG in my V-8. That was 10 miles.

It usually gives 29-30.

The question is why? Weather, humdity...

The Cadillac NorthStar V-8 engine is amazing to give 29 but 42 is outstanding!

BoyntonStu

[Cadillac]

Are you guys using the DIC (digital information centers)? I know these (on Caddys) can be off by as much as 2 MPG by the end of a tank. They always seem to be optomistic when you first reset them.


BoyntonStu, the cadillac northstar has the best MPG per cubic inch of any car put into production to date. It is a shame they are not going to make them any more. The highest I ever got mine was 34.6 MPG on the highway on a road trip to Atlanta (Hwy 411), that is the whole tank, no instantenous guesses. That is incredible when you remember it is a 300 HP, 300 ft-lbs or torque car, hefty american luxury car. It is to bad more people don't realize what they are missing in these engines. You can get about the same fuel economy as a 4 banger without the compromise.:)

[Smith03Jetta]

I'm ignoring the Instantaneous MPG Readout. I can let off the gas and my Instantaneous MPG will go up to HIGH numbers. I can coast down hill and get 85 mpg. I'm working off the average calculation instead. This takes all the MPG data and calculates an average number for display. This is a lot more accurate. Snapshots are not reliable in my opinion.

I've also got another speculative comment on why the Touareg seems to be getting better results now than I've been able to get with my Jetta. The Jetta has two O2 sensors. One before the Cat and one after. The One Sensor that's before the Catalytic converter gets hit by all the exhaust fumes from ALL they cylinders.

The Touareg has several O2 sensors immediately after the exhaust manifold. The individual O2 sensors get to monitor two different exhaust manifold streams. None of the O2 Sensors are forced to read the Full Engine Exhaust. Maybe the addition of 1.5 liters to this engine is not too much for the O2 sensors to make a difference.

There are no O2 sensors near the Catalytic Converter. There is not an O2 Sensor past the Cat. All the O2 sensors are within 10 inches or so of the engine block.

Let's compare.

1 liter of HHO / 1 O2 sensor. TOO MUCH
400 ml of HHO / 1 O2 sensor. Not enough to effect O2 Sensor readouts.

1.5 liters of HHO / 4 pre-cat O2 Sensors = .375 liters of influence per O2 sensor. Is this why 1.5 liters of HHO is not negatively effecting this Touareg Engine? Who knows... Just a theory.

[Cadillac]

Sounds like your theory is on the right track.

Do you know if the Touareg have the 3 or 4 wire 02 sensors?

[djerickd]

http://www.stealth316.com/2-awddynos.htm

also not listed in TopSpeed in ATL.

[Smith03Jetta]

Some of the sensors are 5 wire, some are 4 wires and I think there's a couple temp sensors thrown in for good measure. Upstream Lambda sensor is 5 wire. Downstream is 4 wire.

[midnight1957]

Mr. Smith, back to the design of your cell. You say that all of the plates in your cell are neutrals except for the first and last. You have them seperated by zip ties, Are the zip ties that are in between the plates there for spacing only and how thick are they?
Also I thought that the neutral plates were suppose to touch, is this correct and does yours touch?
Does putting the zip tie at the end of each plate does it prevent leakage around the end of each plate.
Keep up the good work, it is preventing us from making some mistakes that you make and then correct thus saving all of us some time.

Thanks and have a Blessed day,
Wade

[Painless]

Smith03Jetta,

Just setup my Pelican 1450 case and am trying to decide if it has a leak or not. Did you have any problems with either of your cases leaking near the lid hinges? Did you take any extra steps to ensure their air/water tightness?

Might be condensation dripping down from having the lid up I suppose.

[DigitalMocking]

Smith03Jetta;

Just wanted to say, thank you for these great threads and your honest reporting on them. I've been looking into HHO for a few weeks now after someone came into my local shop I do some consulting for with wild claims of gas increases, crappy photocopied flyers and a whole lot of enthusiasm.

I'm also in IT management, I feel we're pretty kindred spirits when it comes to research and documentation of procedure, and I can tell you that you've saved me plenty of time with your efforts, and I thank you for it.

My daily driver is a 2007 honda shadow that already gets me 60+ mpg, so I can leave that be but I have a 94 mk3 jetta that I screw around with and drive when it's raining (and since I live in portland, I drive the jetta a lot :p)

Your system of all neutral plates has solved one of the main problems that seem to plague most HHO generators, and that's the thermal issues. After reading your threads, and dozens of others as well as blog posts and mostly useless spam adverts (and some not so useless), I really do think the right way to fix the F/A mixture in your car is via the ECU.

Just wanted to say kudos and thank you sir. I'm going to start the build on my jetta when my odb-2 cable gets here next week. :)

[Smith03Jetta]

Mr. Smith, back to the design of your cell. You say that all of the plates in your cell are neutrals except for the first and last. You have them seperated by zip ties, Are the zip ties that are in between the plates there for spacing only and how thick are they?
Also I thought that the neutral plates were suppose to touch, is this correct and does yours touch?
Does putting the zip tie at the end of each plate does it prevent leakage around the end of each plate.
Keep up the good work, it is preventing us from making some mistakes that you make and then correct thus saving all of us some time.

Thanks and have a Blessed day,
Wade
Let me try to answer your questions. I'm using Zip ties for several reasons. They are easy to work with. They are impervious to the caustic environment. They are easy to take apart and replace. The thickness of a zip tie is just about perfect as far as plate spacing is concerned. I have not measured the thickness but they are just standard zip ties that you can purchase at Home Depot.

In this particular design neutral plates are not supposed to touch other neutral plates. Neutral plates in ANY design is not supposed to touch any Positive or Negative plate. There is NO touching metal in my design of ANY KIND.

GAPS ARE CRITICAL TO GAS PRODUCTION. IF THERE IS NO GAP, THERE IS NO GAS.

The Zip tie with a "Twist" at the ends of my plates are just convenience. It allows me to use only 2 zip ties per set instead of 4. Remember? I'm Lazy. Also Cheap! It has nothing to do with Sealing the ends. If I wanted to Seal the ends I would have put the zip tie straight down between the plates. Instead I forced the zip tie to bow out of the metal gap. The twist keeps the zip tie from slipping back in between the plates. Simplicity.

Mistakes? Me? I don't make mistakes:D I make VERSIONS.:)

[Smith03Jetta]

Thanks "DigitalMocking". I do admit that I have not got all the answers yet on how to set up the ECU. I've tried several approaches and to date, I just haven't got it all figured out. I've got my Jetta getting consistent gas mileage improvement but nothing extraordinary. Today is the first time i drove my Jetta this week. I drove my Touareg most of the week to test out HHO in it. I rode my motorcycle yesterday because it was so nice outside and my bike had been feeling neglect lately.

So far the HHO is doing nice things in my Touareg with no ECU mods. My first round of tests showed a decrease in gas mileage but I'm not seeing that any more. The only thing that's different is the Octane of the gasoline used in the tests. Right now I'm using 91 or 93 octane instead of the 89 octane that my wife had been filling it up with.

With 89 octane she was getting 18 or 19 MPG on average. With 91+ octane I see that MPG average jump up a bit to 20 to 21 mpg. Just so you know if I drive my Touareg really fast the MPG drops to 15.5 mpg. By really fast I mean 85 to 90 mph. The sweet spot for best MPG results is 55 to 64 mph. My Tests are done at about 64 mph.

HHO is currently pushing me up between 2 to 6 mpg increase depending on my driving style. Day before yesterday I drove up a mountain at 35 to 45 mph and got 14 to 15 mpg. I've never got that good mpg results under heavy strain before. It normally shows 7 to 10 mpg.

The HHO is more effective on MPG at lower speeds it seems. More to go around if you ask me!~

Oh, BTW, my bike also gets 60 mpg. Or at least it used to get 60 mpg until I fixed the leaking intake manifold and rebuilt the top end of the engine. I haven't checked it since I did the repairs. My bike is a custom built 883 Sportster chopper. By "Custom" I mean I built it myself in my home garage. Photos attached.

[Smith03Jetta]

You guys know how I like to post photos. Here are some more.

[Smith03Jetta]

And some more...

[DigitalMocking]

That's an awesome bike, I wish I had the kind of dedication it would take to build one like that. I went easy and wrote a check to the local Honda dealer.

I want you to know your no-nonsense approach has made me willing to experiment for myself. I wouldn't say I'm a believer yet, but without the work you've done, I'd have written this off as yet another combination of crackpots and charlatans jumping on the latest problem.

Thanks for that.

[Smith03Jetta]

I'll be driving to Marietta GA (Atlanta) tomorrow in my Touareg. Round trip is 140+ miles. I'll fill up prior to leaving. I'll fill up when I get back. I'll monitor my average MPG readout during the drive. My cruise control speed will be 65. I'll calculate my overall MPG use when I fill up after the drive. I'll post all data that I can gather.

I will be driving with my Wife and 3 kids in tow. I'll be grocery shopping at Harry's market and driving back with a load of groceries. Interstate highway most all the way.

This vehicle is by no means a stripped down light vehicle. It has a gross vehicle weight of almost 6000 lbs. It is all wheel drive It has a tuned down 220 hp Porche engine. It is a 3.2 liter V6. The Porsche equivalent has been tuned to 246 horsepower with slightly lower fuel mileage numbers. The Touareg has nicer (Heavier) interior than the Porsche Cayenne.

The only mods I've made to this vehicle is a K&N air filter and I've removed the rooftop luggage rack/spoiler.

EPA Numbers are 13 - 19 with Combined = 15.
It uses 22.5 barrels of Saudi Oil a year.
Annual fuel cost = $4370 (based on our current driving habits)

[Smith03Jetta]

We decided not to drive to Atlanta this weekend. We stayed home and played Tennis with the Kids. We did drive around town a little bit, however. The mileage seems to be better around town but we didn't really do any measuring. I hit the trip meter last time I filled up. We are just going to drive around like normal in the Touareg and check the gas mileage the old fashioned way when we fill up next time. That will give me a good average MPG reading.

We drive to Atlanta to get groceries when we have a lot to buy. We go to Harry's market and some other Farmers Markets in Atlanta to get a lot of our groceries. I figured it up; we spend $26.50 on gas to drive to Atlanta and back home. We avoid the trip unless we can save at least that much on groceries. We only needed a few things this week so we decided to stay local.

[redneckgearhead34]

I was looking at the cell you put in yout Touareg and was wondering if the "U" shaped sheet metal was neutral. If not are they +-+-+- or something of that order.

BTW keep up the good work I follow all of your threads and they keep me motivated. As you can tell I have no mpg gain so far do my limited budget coming from being only 17 and a full time highschool student. But I want to improve my gas mileage so I have more money for other teenage stuff.

[Smith03Jetta]

In simple terms; there's 1 positive plate, 1 negative plate and 4 neutral "UUUU"s in between. There should be no touching metal plates in your design.

I have attached a photo to show polarity etc. It really can't get any easier.

BTW, if you do it correctly, you can build my style HHO generator EXACTLY like I did for less than the cost of a tank of GAS for your truck. If you drive a small car it might take up 2 tanks of gas worth of money.

Definitely less than $100.00 to build including a high quality Pelican Case.

[redneckgearhead34]

Thanks for the diagram. Tryin not to ask to many questions here but what is the difference between the pelican box and say other marine battery boxes or what that is classified as.

[Smith03Jetta]

The only thing a marine battery box is good for is to keep the rain out. They do not seal. It's just to keep the battery secure. They also are designed to catch any acid spills or battery explosions. It is a safety issue on the water. A suitable HHO case will be watertight, airtight, heat resistant up to 200F. It needs to be large enough to hold a suitable amount of water and electrodes, Small enough to fit under your hood or grille or somewhere. It needs to be strong enough to take a beating.

I've tried Glass Jars of various sizes (Small and very large) because of the heat benefits. The drawback is they shatter and the openings are not large enough. It's like building a ship in a bottle. A glass jar that breaks and spews caustic solution all over your engine compartment is not nice.

I've tried PVC. The drawback is the tight cramped space. Ship in a bottle issues again. Terminals will overheat where they go through the PVC and cause the PVC to leak. Heat is an issue with most PVC designs. The $$$ cost of PVC fittings, glue, pipe etc can rival a good waterproof marine case. The screw on caps shrink and leak. Difficult to seal without silicon caulk. That makes them difficult to open and inspect later.

I've tried Home Depot Electrical boxes. They will seal but they will not withstand the temperature of engine compartments. They will crack. Several members of this forum including myself have tried them and they crack.

I have created my last two generators using different sizes of Pelican cases. 1200 and 1400 model numbers. They are BOTH still working after several months of use. Build, install, forget... No worries.

[redneckgearhead34]

That sounds good with me. The only problem is I live about 150 miles from the nearest Bass Pro Shops which is an awesome store. I dont want to order it off the internet cause I wan to be able to see it before I buy it. For size reasons etc.

Turns out I found a supplier of free stainless steel. Anything from 4x8 sheets to tiny plates. I was thinking I could custom make a box out of stainless steel because I can weld it. Just make sure that the box does not have a charge. Then I could make a lid and stuff that I would be satisfied with. The only proiblem I dont know what grade ss it is.

I was also wondering what your opinion is on putting the cell in the bed of a truck.

[Smith03Jetta]

The problem with a stainless steel box... it becomes a GIGANTIC negative plate if it touches anything... You will need to insulate any electrical connections coming into the box so they don't touch the stainless steel walls. The stainless in effect becomes a neutral plate, accepting whatever current is flowing through the water. This could throw off your electrolysis process.

I'm just thinking here... Feel free to play around... Just don't let the ss box touch anything or you mess up. If anything touches the box with the current turned on it will ground out to the chassis and spark.

I really don't think this SS box is a good idea. You can also go to Dive Shops, Police/Military Supply stores such as Brigade Quartermasters, Camera Stores. Wolf Camera Stores in most Malls has some decent waterproof camera cases very similar to Pelican. I think the brand is Seahorse.

You can carefully measure your space that you are putting your box in and go to pelican's website. They have a utility on their website that allows you to pick the correct model box based on dimensions. It's pretty cool.

[redneckgearhead34]

That is cool. I will measure and stuff whenever I get home. I am going to try to move some vacuum canisters etc. around so that I have more room in the corner that I want to work in.


thanks for all your advice

[sumdude]

To smith,

though im new to this forum im not new to the technology. Been experimenting for about a year now with it. HOWEVER, i believe that you are not getting something correct here. It honestly would probably take about 100+ L min to completely run a engine on hho. besides that point when it comes down to our car ecu's they are all different. GM computers control the fuel trims from different sensors that say VW, Mercedes, or Toyota would. For instance, lets refer to the water4gas experiments on OZZIE's Toyota camry i believe. With his vehicle he mentioned all he had to do computer related was to simply take a pot meter and add a 33k resistor to it to lean his motor down to where he saw actual fuel savings. With my Chevy Impala that was not the case. I had to actually modify my MAF sensor which is frequency based to actually see a fuel saving. I did the effie mod- negative, the MAP sensor mod- negative, i let the car stay the way it is and i noticed immediate and a serious increase in acceleration from a dead stop. However my mpg went up 1 mile crusing at highway speed 60 mpg. On a city road going about 40 i saw the same 1 mile per gallon increase. But after i modified my MAF sensor i went from 19 in the city to 26 in the city and 24 to 33 mpg on highway. This was all recorded from the trip meter in my factory radio as well as my scangauge.

All im saying is that while you lean the engine down the additional hho gas entering you can say compensate for the drop in fuel being sent to the cylinders and assists in leveling out the lost fuel.

This technology does work. Im sure you've lit or seen the videos of the bottle rockets on youtube. Once filled with hho that thing takes off like a rocket. This gas is very combustable and it works on the engine.

What i really suggest for you to do is attempt to try out your cell on another vehicle other than VW or your results are just being biased.

Rent a vehicle if it takes that and actually attach the unit to it and see how things work out. Just don't give in like that.

[Smith03Jetta]

SumDude, I think you've got the wrong idea here. I'm not saying I'm disappointed with the results. I've recorded MPG increases in both my cars.

Regardless of whether you use and EFIE (Which won't work on my cars) or a MAF signal enhancer (Which is annoying because you keep having to flip a switch back and forth) or any other bolt'on-wire'on gadget, the goal of ALL of those gadgets is to lean out the fuel mixture.

I've been testing with leaning out the fuel mixture on both my cars. I'm just doing it with my ECU instead. Right now I'm testing the Timing Mod only. At 10 degrees Adjustment to my ignition timing I just this week recorded on my Jetta 28 mpg. I've turned my HHO off for this tank of gas and running everything STOCK just to get another base reading. (Sanity Check).

On my Touareg: I just got back from filling up with gas. My fuel light came on. I calculated a full tank of gas with mixed driving at 16 mpg. That's not really good at all. NO MODS, only HHO. My wife drove most of the miles no knowing the HHO was turned on. I told her it was off so it would not effect her driving habits. Blind test.....

Im thinking about reducing the HHO production to a lower level and running another test with a full tank of Gas. Again, telling her that the HHO is turned off.

[sumdude]

SumDude, I think you've got the wrong idea here. I'm not saying I'm disappointed with the results. I've recorded MPG increases in both my cars.

Regardless of whether you use and EFIE (Which won't work on my cars) or a MAF signal enhancer (Which is annoying because you keep having to flip a switch back and forth) or any other bolt'on-wire'on gadget, the goal of ALL of those gadgets is to lean out the fuel mixture.

I've been testing with leaning out the fuel mixture on both my cars. I'm just doing it with my ECU instead. Right now I'm testing the Timing Mod only. At 10 degrees Adjustment to my ignition timing I just this week recorded on my Jetta 28 mpg. I've turned my HHO off for this tank of gas and running everything STOCK just to get another base reading. (Sanity Check).

On my Touareg: I just got back from filling up with gas. My fuel light came on. I calculated a full tank of gas with mixed driving at 16 mpg. That's not really good at all. NO MODS, only HHO. My wife drove most of the miles no knowing the HHO was turned on. I told her it was off so it would not effect her driving habits. Blind test.....

Im thinking about reducing the HHO production to a lower level and running another test with a full tank of Gas. Again, telling her that the HHO is turned off.

Ok i understand where you are coming from then. Your car ecu just does and wont respond well to the hho. In the case of my car for the first say 150 miles i saw an immediate increase in fuel econ and power. After that my check engine light came on and followed by that i began seeing the negative effect of hho. Ive then made the modifications to the computer and my fuel economy and power is back up as it was before the computer did something about it. As i mentioned earlier though please try it on another manufacturer's vehicle. Even rent a car for a day and watch it. I tried it on my mothers 05 malibu for instance. The ecu reports on average about 20mpg before i hooked up the hho to it. Now the min. i connected the unit to the generator the cars ecu immediately changed to 25 mpg and that was without any modification.

[resago]

I wonder if even 1/2" is enough spacing to prevent heat, you could do a double cell in that same enclosure.

why not run a flooded cell and use a reservior/bubbler combo?
If you are adding 8oz a week, then a 32oz res would last you a month.
or put a 5 gallon tank in the trunk and run it several months without having to fill.

are there water filters that can filter tap to a clean enough level to be used like distilled? Imagine a 5 gal tank with a fill point on the side of your car you can fill with tap!

you could use your water level detector inline with a relay to turn off your cell in the event of a leak or dry out.

[resago]

did your mileage gains remain on this car without any mods?

[viktoredo]

Dear Mr. Smith,

I'm from COSTA RICA, I have a VW Touareg 2004, 3.2L V6

I'm very interested in installing an HHO generator in my car. I want to know if the system you installed on your TOUAREG still works and if it really improved gas consumption.

I'm a little confused with some information I found on internet:

www.aardvark.co.nz/hho_scam2.shtml :confused:

Your HHO generator works with 15 AMP, will this amp too big for the car battery?

I hope you or someone else can advise me if it's worth installing a HHO generator or not in a VW TOUAREG 2004 3.2L V6. And what other tips I can take

If your Touareg generator still works, I appreciate if you can show me your battery conection and gas vacuum conection.

Thanks for your help.

[Stevo]

Dear Mr. Smith,

I'm from COSTA RICA, I have a VW Touareg 2004, 3.2L V6

I'm very interested in installing an HHO generator in my car. I want to know if the system you installed on your TOUAREG still works and if it really improved gas consumption.

I'm a little confused with some information I found on internet:

www.aardvark.co.nz/hho_scam2.shtml :confused:

Your HHO generator works with 15 AMP, will this amp too big for the car battery?

I hope you or someone else can advise me if it's worth installing a HHO generator or not in a VW TOUAREG 2004 3.2L V6. And what other tips I can take

If your Touareg generator still works, I appreciate if you can show me your battery conection and gas vacuum conection.

Thanks for your help.

Smith hasn't been seen in a long while here. Maybe he figured out that all HHO is a scam and the we are all just trying to make a quick buck off of "bunk science" because none of us were smart enough to figure out what the scientists have already figured out for us. Maybe he decided to take the blue pill and wake up the next day to a fresh bowl of Wheaties like nothing ever happened. Maybe he got sick of all the naysayer bullsh** and people telling him that his work and time invested was all for nothing. Maybe he died. Maybe he's still alive and working for "Big Oil" as a spy. Maybe he has figured out Stan Meyer's contraption and has locked himself in a deep dark cavernous laboratory where he will work on his master plan to build a water-powered army. Or maybe, just maybe... he got busy and tired of spending so much time and effort towards a technology that has been exploited by scammers, condemned by scientists, exposed by to be 100% scam by "the media" we trust to tell us the truth.

I don't know what happened to him, but if you really want to know if this will work on your vehicle then you will probably have to try it yourself. It REALLY wouldn't be the most amazing thing if it did... That is unless EVERY single person who EVER installed one of these units on EVERY car was lying and completely misinformed. Answer seems pretty obvious to me. If you do install one on your vehicle, consider ALL *variables*. Without experimentation, our world would be a very primitive place.