Help in assembling hho cell

[Sooraj]

Hi,

I want to i install an hho cell in a 87.6cc ,4stroke, single cylinder scooter....
For that i have decided to construct a 15 plate of 4"X4" size cut from a 304 grade SS sheet and arrangement as -nnn++nnn--nnn+....
I want to power it with a 12v 5Ah battery of the scooter...
Also the electrolyte is a KOH solution in the ratio 2 table spoon of KOH pellets per liter of distilled/rain water....

And my question is can any one tell me

1.how much gas in approximate is required to at least run these engine without gasoline...?
2.How much gas can this cell produce (approx) from these 12v 5Ah battery...?
3.Which arrangement is better whether -nnn+nnn- or the -nnn++nnn--nnn+....?

please reply...

Thank you.

[aceras624]

you wont be able to run the scooter indefinitely on HHO alone. Efficiency is key to begin with and these cells youre planning arent very efficient. Fun project though :)

[Sooraj]

you wont be able to run the scooter indefinitely on HHO alone. Efficiency is key to begin with and these cells youre planning arent very efficient. Fun project though :)

Ok fine... Thanks for replying...

Can you please answer my other questions....

[Sooraj]

Can you suggest any plate arrangement by using which maximum rate is produced ...

Is the battery voltage enough to generate the hho.... ?

[BioFarmer93]

Can you suggest any plate arrangement by using which maximum rate is produced ...

Is the battery voltage enough to generate the hho.... ?

Sooraj,
Your scooter's alternator produces enough voltage, but does not produce enough amperage to realistically power a multi-stack reactor, so I will recommend that you build a single stack of this configuration... [+nnnnn-]. Given the plate size you have chosen, the reactor will consume between 6-8 amps and produce approximately 1/2 liter per minute of HHO.

[Sooraj]

Thank Biofarmer93,

So as i calculated volume of cylinder its 87.6cc i.e; 0.0876 liter... If so as it produce 1/2 liter of HHo per min.. can we run the vehicle with the gas only... I am sorry if my question is funny:rolleyes:... but i am new in this field ... so i need valuable suggestions...:o

As i read other posts i found that 0.5amp is the best current for the best results... and if the cell draws 6-8 amps...is it good for it...?

[hhotb]

im also trying to find the right amount to "idle" without any gas and the rpm can be increased by adding gasoline. i dont know how to calculate it but i do know that BioFarmer is right. use his set up and adjust the amount of KOH until you have about 5 amps. 6-8 is to much.

[RTJ_Nair]

@Sooraj,

The cell you have mentioned seems over designed for that engine and the current drawn will soon drain the battery out. Also, the gas generation will not be sufficient for running the engine solely on HHO.

A better way is to have a CCPWM (constant current pulse width module) where its dutycycle (DC) is varied according to engine RPM. Say, below 1000RPM idling DC=0% and between 1000 to 2000 DC=10% and above that, DC=100%. The current limit should be set at a value where it doesn't toll the battery too much. The alternators will supply only about 3 to 5amps on small engines above 2000RPM.

You can do a search in the forum to get more information.

RTJ Nair

[BioFarmer93]

im also trying to find the right amount to "idle" without any gas and the rpm can be increased by adding gasoline. i dont know how to calculate it but i do know that BioFarmer is right. use his set up and adjust the amount of KOH until you have about 5 amps. 6-8 is to much.

Once again I have doubled it automatically- apologies Sooraj. I should have said 3-4 amps, and production will be approximately 1/4 LPM. The "1/2 amp" you have read about is actually 1/2 amp per square inch measured on one power plate per stack. You will not be able to make enough HHO with your scooters electrical system to even run it at idle.

hhotb- you have not said what size engine you are trying to idle, so it's not possible to estimate the volume of gas necessary.

@RTJNair- You recommend a CCPWM on what could be a very simple, small and inexpensive system without recommending a model or manufacturer that provides one that can produce the variable output you suggest is needed. IMHO I suggest that for a system of this size a CCPWM is an unnecessary expense.

[RTJ_Nair]

@BioFarmer93,

From experience (tried this on a 350cc bike) in our cities here, due to crowded traffic, the vehicles move slowly and hence the engine speed is low. This causes the battery to drain at low speeds in spite of adjusting the concentration of KOH and maintain amperage.

BTW, I have made a microcontroller based setup to control duty cycle but still researching on the effects of voltage (potential) applied on an HHO cell. The speed (RPM) simulation was done with the help of a pulse generator circuit.

RTJ Nair

[BioFarmer93]

@BioFarmer93,

From experience (tried this on a 350cc bike) in our cities here, due to crowded traffic, the vehicles move slowly and hence the engine speed is low. This causes the battery to drain at low speeds in spite of adjusting the concentration of KOH and maintain amperage.

BTW, I have made a microcontroller based setup to control duty cycle but still researching on the effects of voltage (potential) applied on an HHO cell. The speed (RPM) simulation was done with the help of a pulse generator circuit.

RTJ Nair

This is interesting- but it seems there is a simpler way to accomplish this isn't there? Replacing the rotor windings of the alternator with magnets would make a nice PMA that could easily keep the battery charged, the battery would clamp the voltage at approx. 13V and alt. output above the battery's clamping voltage is seen as amperage increase relative to rpm and available to the reactor at stable voltage, but current levels directly proportional to engine rpm. I realize this method doesn't appeal to all, but to those more comfortable with mechanical solutions rather than electronic, it offers an alternative solution.

[Sooraj]

Once again I have doubled it automatically- apologies Sooraj. I should have said 3-4 amps, and production will be approximately 1/4 LPM. You will not be able to make enough HHO with your scooters electrical system to even run it at idle.


As you told it will produce 1/4 liter of HHO per minute then why cant it run a 85cc engine which consumes only 0.085 liters volume...? i am not sure that the question is right..:rolleyes:. need suggestions if its wrong...

Can i use external additional battery of 12v 5ah to increase this production in your +nnnn- design...?

Is it the problem of the power supply or the limited capacity cell design...?:(

Please help...

[Sooraj]

@ RTJ_NAIR

According to my knowledge PWM is used to reduce heat... Which occurs on the next stage after a continuous use... Sorry but my question is the cell design itself i am in the first stage only...:)

Can you share me the details about your cell which you are using... like the cell plate arrangement...

Thanks for the reply...

[RTJ_Nair]

@Sooraj,

The cell I have used was 7 plate +NNNNN- drycell, 304SS, 95x120mm, 16gage, rubber gasket-spacing 2mm. Have limited current to no more than 12 amps. I haven't measured the gas flow. As mentioned earlier I am on the researching stage, a newbie in the field of HHO generation and have not finalized on anything yet. My conceptual design layout is as in the "HHO frequency1.doc" diagram (try changing extension to ***.docx if the document file doesn't open) available from the page below.

http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=345&page=5

If you do a forum search, there are plenty of useful design guidelines shared by experienced users and researchers.

RTJ Nair

[BioFarmer93]

As you told it will produce 1/4 liter of HHO per minute then why cant it run a 85cc engine which consumes only 0.085 liters volume...? i am not sure that the question is right..:rolleyes:. need suggestions if its wrong...

Can i use external additional battery of 12v 5ah to increase this production in your +nnnn- design...?

Is it the problem of the power supply or the limited capacity cell design...?:(

Please help...

Sooraj, please think about what you have said for a moment... I assume your scooter has a two cycle engine? If so then every other stroke of the piston uses 85cc of air. Multiply this by perhaps, 2000 rpm (an average) this means that 170,000cc, or 170 liters of air moves through your engine every minute. Your reactor will make about 1/4 of a liter of HHO per minute, or .068 of 1% of the mixture. You need at least 4% hydrogen in pure oxygen to get a bang. You would have to haul a trailer of batteries behind your scooter with a LARGE reactor to make enough gas to run the engine on.

[Sooraj]

@Biofarmer93

Thanks for giving the method of calculations... i have one more doubt the engine displacement in CC denotes the space displayed by the cylinder after explosion happened... its not the size of combustion chamber.... actually the combustion chamber is smaller than the rated 85cc.... and this volume of the combustion chamber is not mentioned anywhere.... I am not an automobile engineer... but i have read about this somewhere...
Need suggestions....

Thank you...

[Sooraj]

@ RTJ nair

Your embedded system design is great... and advanced... also are you using the H-bridge to drive your cell...? it seems that the supply polarity direction to the cell will be continuously changing...

Also i wonder what power supply circuit are you using... can you tell me about the 12v Dc source you mentioned.... as you mentioned the dc from transformer... which type of transformer are you using... Are the bridge circuit getting hot...?

[RTJ_Nair]

Sooraj,

Don't remember mentioning about transformers in the document. However, the DC for the test setup is from an old ATX PC power supply which could supply about 25amps at +12VDC.

Don't confuse H-bridges with rectifier bridges. H-bridges work on DC and can change current direction on demand. They heat up but can sustain high currents with proper design and cooling.

RTJ Nair

[Sooraj]

@ RTJ Nair.

Sorry about that i thought you are using transformer....and i mean the power supply bridge circuit not the H-bridge..what is the power of ATX power supply 350W or the 400W... ?

How much current is drawn by the cell...? i am asking again as i found that the diode in the initial bridge for DC conversion of AC used in a 350 w SMPS is rated just for 2 amp... so i am really surprised how you manage it for current range above 2 amp... as you mentioned you are limiting the current below 12 amp...

I tested the cell with the ordinary transformer circuit but the bridge (of power supply) is getting hot... even the high current bridge is not getting fit.... Did you have such experiences...?

Thank you.

[RTJ_Nair]

Ordinary transformer/bridge setups will heatup due to the high current passing through the circuit/cell. Switch mode power supplies are different and capable of handling high currents unlike conventional transformer/bridge circuits and the efficiency is quite high. The one I am using specifies 450watts and wired to render 25amps (12VDC). Instructions are available in the internet to convert such power supplies to a bench power supply.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2oSFpKh_Uw

There are two methods currently popular in HHO generation. One, the brute force electrolysis which is proven where the cell is subjected to low voltage and high currents. My initial trial was with the brute-force setup using a CCPWM where the max current was limited to 12amps max. This is straight forward. The second method is by using high voltage and low current which is something to be researched. I am currently into trying the latter in which the resonance (optimum point at which a cell yields good gas production) has to be attained. This is difficult due to lot of variables in the system. There are also many combinations of gating and pulsing frequencies that makes it complicated and difficult.

Hope this answers your questions.

RTJ Nair

[Sooraj]

@RTJ Nair

Thanks for the information .... It really helped me a lot... I am going to make one...

Aso can you tell me from where in Kerala did you buy those "L-bow" which are connected to the acrylic sheet for inlet and outlet to the cell.... I searched everywhere in my locality but din find one... Can you send me the details of the dealer in kerala who supplies such small single side threaded L-bows....


Thank You.

[RTJ_Nair]

@Sooraj,

This is one of the problems I too have faced and hence were sourced from ebay. Some of the tube fittings were bought from the local shops along the power-house road (Trivandrum). I don't remember the shop names since there are many.

I believe there is a separate section here which deals with the parts for construction.

RTJ Nair

[Sooraj]

So is that "L-bow" available in TVM...? Or you shipped it from ebay...?

Thank you.

[RTJ_Nair]

Elbows, T's, single side threaded barbed nozzles etc; are tube fittings and are available here. They are nickel plated brass and not SS and good enough for my research. Items such as safety relief valves, non-return valves were sourced from ebay, US.

RTJ Nair