Painless experiment in HHO

[Painless]

For those of you just starting to read my thread, please note that my experiments started with open bath designs and then moved on to dry cells.

There is some useful information in the earlier posts (posts 1 through 29), but I wouldn't recommend duplicating any of my open bath designs.

The dry cell adventure starts at post 30, please skip forward to this point if this is the avenue you're interested in.

I provide information here and on youtube in one hope, that it will help others down the path to HHO production and MPG gains. My information is free and open source for the good of our wallets and mother Earth. I also encourage others to participate in this thread for questions, input, advice or other positive means.

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At least I'm hoping it will be painless... time will tell :rolleyes:

I'm finally ready to start building my system and wanted to run my plans by everyone to see if there is anything I haven't thought of or could be doing better, taking into account everyone elses experience.

I'm going for a fairly large setup for my truck, a 2006 Dodge Ram with the 4.7L magnum v8. I'm currently averaging 17mpg with this vehicle and do about 1400 miles per month just going back and forward to my job, before I even start adding in private miles.

I'm guessing that I'm going to need some serious output for this size of engine. I'm going to shoot for a minimum of 1.5LPM before I start integrating this system into my truck, but I'm thinking I will be needing more.

My casing is a toolbox measuring 15.6" x 8.4" x 8.1" and made of polypropylene, from what I've read it has a max operating temp of 180 F and a melting point around the 300 F limit. Not sure if this is going to be a bit too near the mark, but I'm mounting the unit behind the front bumper so it will be getting a good airstream when the vehicle is in motion. If this box doesn't work out, then I'll probably opt for a pelican case.

I'm using 16 stainless steel switch plate covers (from Lowes) and am trying two separate configurations (see my diagram):

Configuration A - Single cell in series, basically +NNNNNNNNNNNNNN-

Configuration B - Twin cells in parallel, which will be +NNNNNN- -NNNNNN+

In both configurations, the plate gaps for each pair will be 3mm and there will be an approx 1" gap between each pair of plates. The plate pairs are joined using nylon nuts and bolts.

I've taken ideas from smack, plumajob and smith03jetta for these setups.

Any comments (good or bad) and suggestions welcome!

[webeopelas]

I'll be watching this thread. Your results will help me better understand the series/parallel advantages/disadvantages.

From what I have read here I think you will get more heat in your second config at the same amperage due to the voltage across each cell will be 3.5V versus 1.75 volts in the series config.

Interested to see the difference in output if there is any.

I have an 06 Dodge Ram 5.9L Cummins. Looking at doing the same thing and think I want about 2LPM. I am willing to put it in the truck bed if I need the space.

[Painless]

I too have questions in my mind reference the series vs parallel comparison, the way I see it though I'm thinking the following will happen:

I'm going to assume a working current of 20 amps for the purpose of this description:

Config A: Single cell in series

This will result in 20 amps moving from one side of the electrolyte to the other, assuming a steady 12v this will result in 1.5v at each pair of plates.

Config B: Twin cells in parallel

This will result in 20 amps entering the system in the middle of the plates resulting in a 10 amp flow towards the left hand positive and another 10 amp flow towards the right hand positive. Additionally, our 12v input will result in 3v per plate pair (electrical minds, please correct this if my thinking is wrong!).

I'm thinking (again, please correct!) that the higher voltage per pair in the parallel config will result in more production per amp and also more heat per amp, however, the parallel setup halving the amp current should help address this.

As always, it's a try it and see scenario.

I'm also planning on trying the above with the plates standard and then running the whole exercise again with the plates roughed up by sanding with 36 sandpaper and comparing output.

[mario brito]

good luck to you experiment :)

please keep posting results, problems, etc

just one detail, that i believe that is not correct. more voltage will not increase production. from what i've read, anything above 1.5V/plate ( some say 1.23V, others 1.43V, so i'm shooting to a round number like 1.5V) will only increase heat.

i think the best solution is to put more N plates untill you get the closest possible to 1.5V/plate. that will lower the heat and maximize production.

too many N plates will lower the V/plate to a value that makes production impossible/very low.

but i could be wrong, so look for other opinions.

and now, i'm going to use an expression i've learned yesterday...

just my 2 cents

LOL

thanks

[Painless]

I finally managed to find some time to build my test generator, I've also got some pictures and videos from building and running the generator in both plate configurations I mentioned. To recap:

Config A: 16 plates in series +NNNNNNNNNNNNNN-

Config B: 2 packs of 8 plates in series, wired in parallel +NNNNNN- -NNNNNN+

Below are some pics of my plates during building, I ended up mounting the plates inside two plexiglas mounts which will both hold the plates in position and seal the edges to prevent current leakage around the plates.

The below pictures are about 2.5mb in size each:

Close-up of a plate pair (http://enterprise.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0492.JPG)

Another close-up of a plate pair (http://enterprise.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0494.JPG)

All 8 plate pairs mounted inside the plexiglas (http://enterprise.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0497.JPG)

Movie of my plates during building:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/RRw_7pJI64M&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/RRw_7pJI64M&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Movie of configuration A, almost no production:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/cBqUeNBvaVc&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/cBqUeNBvaVc&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Movie of configuration B, decent production!:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/FP4DYMoM8rA&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/FP4DYMoM8rA&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

I have to say that I expected configuration B to be the most productive, so I wasn't disappointed there, however, I was totally shocked at how big the difference was.

Configuration A is using less than one volt per plate, at 12v it would be 0.75 per plate. Looks like I'll need 19.68v to reach the ideal 1.23v per plate.

I'm disappointed that I couldn't perform any LPM measurements on config B, it was definitely producing a lot of gas. Surprisingly, it seemed to produce just as much gas on the negative plates as on the ends, I expected there to be a difference. Perhaps the plexiglas insulation around the edges is helping out a lot there?

Next, I want to find a good case to use, probably a Pelican as they seem to be giving good results, and do some gas volume tests.

Really pleased with how my first attempt turned out, wouldn't of been anywhere near as successful without the insight these forums have given me so far :)

[bigapple]

wow thats a really big difference... i think shooting for ideal volts per cell is good but once u stretch it out so far (the 16 plates) the voltage has a very hard time managing to keep its strength to get from one plate to the other... i just experimented with 2 sets of 8 like u did (except +NN--NN+) and i have to say, splitting it up thru just a few neutrals cuts heat out a bunch and gives pretty good results

great videos, great research, great insight

this forum has helped me too, but seeing someone go to these lengths and sharing the information has a very positive effect on the way people plan to set up their hydro gens... nice work

[Painless]

Thanks for the comments! I believe wholeheartedly in neutrals too. The one inch gap between each pair is a good setup too, thanks to plumajob and smith03jetta for pioneering that one!

I've been giving some thought to working further to the ideal voltage, was thinking about using a 10 plate setup in each parallel 'pack', which at the nominal alternator output of approx 13v would equal 1.3v per plate. Then I thought about it some more and began to consider what would happen when my battery started to near the end of it's life and voltage dropped below 12v.

I think 8 plates per pack, as you mention, is definitely the way to go.

My hunt is still on for a watertight case, I visited my local Boaters World on the way to work yesterday, they had a Pelican 1400 case but wanted $109 for it!!!!!!!! Most of the online sites are only asking in the region of $60 for this case.

I checked out a cheap watertight case from Walmart this morning, only $10 and I got what I paid for... leaks like a sieve. Guess I just need to stop beating about the bush and spend the money on a good Pelican.

[Painless]

I just gave in and ordered a Pelican 1450 from Cases by Pelican:

http://www.casesbypelican.com/app-1450.htm

80 odd bucks (including shipping) is a hell of a lot of money for me right now, but I know it's going to be worth it in the long run.

[timetowinarace]

Thought's on 'ideal' voltage.

1. My own research(from sources other than this forum) says that production will continue to go up untill 2V is reached. After 2V only heat is produced. As 'work' is being done, heat is produced. Even 1.23V will produce an amount of heat. I don't know where the 1.5V 'ideal' came from. I suspect that because the SS plates will drop a bit of voltage on thier own that this 1.5V came about. Here is how I look at it. At 1.23V electrolysis begins. This is the minimum production level for voltage for electrolysis. Production will increase up to 2V. This is the maximimum production level for voltage for electrolysis.

2. In order to consider shooting for an 'ideal' voltage it must be considered that the cell itself is ideal. An open bath design cannot be ideal. There is going to be some current leakage.

My opinion, take it for what it's worth: Shoot for two volts. It is the true 'ideal' voltage.

[Painless]

In order to consider shooting for an 'ideal' voltage it must be considered that the cell itself is ideal. An open bath design cannot be ideal. There is going to be some current leakage.

I certainly agree with that statement, this was very much on my mind when I built the cell. The plexiglas I sandwiched the plates into seems to make a difference. I've also been giving some thought to designs where the electrolyte is pushed through the cells, rather then them simply bathing in it.


My opinion, take it for what it's worth: Shoot for two volts. It is the true 'ideal' voltage.

Worth a lot! Think I'll play with this once I get my pelican and can measure flow LPM.

[Painless]

I've been doing some thinking around ideal voltage and other factors whilst I wait for my pelican case to arrive, looks like I should be getting it on the 20th.

I've decided to put together something pretty ambitious for my new setup, a total of 36 plates in three rows of 12, each row will contain 2 parallel sets as follows:

+NNNN- -NNNN+
+NNNN- -NNNN+
+NNNN- -NNNN+

The pelican case I ordered is pretty big inside, therefore, I should be able to still have my preferred 1" space between each plate pair, I'll be sticking with the zip tie thickness (thin side of the strap) as my pair spacing. I'm also retaining packing each row in plexiglas to reduce the current leakage as this seems to work very well.

After some research, it seems that I have about 60 amps to safely play with from my alternator, I'm going to go shy of this and go for a maximum of 50 amps for my setup. I was looking around for relays and breakers that would handle this kind of load, but decided to split the load instead through two sets of breakers and relays rated at 30 amps using the same 10 gauge wire. I'm going to need one run of 8 gauge wire to my ammeter before the split, but that's it.

On another subject, I switched my ram over to full synthetic oil yesterday, mobil 1 extended performance (15,000 mile) and an appropriate filter. It will be interesting to see if this makes any difference to MPG or not.

I've also been thinking about a better air filter, something along the lines of a K&N setup. I can't decide if this is a good thing for MPG or not. The way I see it, a more efficient filter will allow more air in which will allow the computer to apply more fuel under wide throttle openings, this is surely a recipe for reduced MPG? But then, I also notice that my vehicles MPG is always slightly better when the weather is cooler (as in a cooler summer day, that is) cooler air is more dense, which will effectively have the same effect. Any thoughts on this?

[JojoJaro]

Well, according to these folks' experience, voltage should be a little higher than 2V.

http://hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=936

These guys used 7 cells for 1.93V per cell. Very little production. When they jumpered one cell they ended up with 6 cells for 2.3V per cell. Production went up.

So, it seems, 6 cells is the best compromise between heat and production. Your configuration should be +nnnnn-nnnnn+ for best production, I think.

[JojoJaro]

I've been doing some thinking around ideal voltage and other factors whilst I wait for my pelican case to arrive, looks like I should be getting it on the 20th.

I've decided to put together something pretty ambitious for my new setup, a total of 36 plates in three rows of 12, each row will contain 2 parallel sets as follows:

+NNNN- -NNNN+
+NNNN- -NNNN+
+NNNN- -NNNN+

The pelican case I ordered is pretty big inside, therefore, I should be able to still have my preferred 1" space between each plate pair, I'll be sticking with the zip tie thickness (thin side of the strap) as my pair spacing. I'm also retaining packing each row in plexiglas to reduce the current leakage as this seems to work very well.

After some research, it seems that I have about 60 amps to safely play with from my alternator, I'm going to go shy of this and go for a maximum of 50 amps for my setup. I was looking around for relays and breakers that would handle this kind of load, but decided to split the load instead through two sets of breakers and relays rated at 30 amps using the same 10 gauge wire. I'm going to need one run of 8 gauge wire to my ammeter before the split, but that's it.

On another subject, I switched my ram over to full synthetic oil yesterday, mobil 1 extended performance (15,000 mile) and an appropriate filter. It will be interesting to see if this makes any difference to MPG or not.

I've also been thinking about a better air filter, something along the lines of a K&N setup. I can't decide if this is a good thing for MPG or not. The way I see it, a more efficient filter will allow more air in which will allow the computer to apply more fuel under wide throttle openings, this is surely a recipe for reduced MPG? But then, I also notice that my vehicles MPG is always slightly better when the weather is cooler (as in a cooler summer day, that is) cooler air is more dense, which will effectively have the same effect. Any thoughts on this?

Do you have a gas or diesel? On diesels, a good air filter does not really help because the turbo is already pumping more air that what is needed. Diesels already run lean so more air does not have any effect. On gas, air filter will help.

I would also like to see your experience with

+nnnnn-nnnnn+ vs +nnnn-nnnn+ configuration. I believe 6 n plates will lower heat. Please try it.

[Painless]

Do you have a gas or diesel? On diesels, a good air filter does not really help because the turbo is already pumping more air that what is needed. Diesels already run lean so more air does not have any effect. On gas, air filter will help.


My ram is a 4.7 gas model, when you say that it will help do you mean with just power or mpg or both?



I would also like to see your experience with

+nnnnn-nnnnn+ vs +nnnn-nnnn+ configuration. I believe 6 n plates will lower heat. Please try it.

I'm planning on trying the 6 plate setup first as this will equal 2 volts per plate (with a little over as you can never get exactly 12v from a vehicle). The way I am wiring my cells makes it relatively quick to try new configurations, so I'll be glad to test a few different setups and measure the LPM when my case arrives.

[Painless]

My Pelican 1450 case finally arrived this morning so I can start building my new generator! As luck would have it, it's my turn to work the weekend so I'm unlikely to get this done before Monday/Tuesday. I'm going to take time to solder every joint and water tight seal every connector that isn't stainless steel.

You might be interested to know that I left my old configuration sitting in the electrolyte (1.75 gallons distilled water and two teaspoons KOH flake) for about 3 days, I drained it out and dismantled it and was surprised to find severe oxidation on the non-stainless metals already! Other than the 3 days sitting in the bath, the unit had only been run for no more than a few hours in total.

[mmickey]

hi,new here.would like to ask how you figure the voltage across the plates.what is the formula.how does it apple to the plates.i understand ohms law as it apples to series and parallecircuits just not clear on how it apples to the plate setups.

[countryboy18]

so lets say that you have a 12V supply how many plates can you have to have the best production? if you have 12V supply does the amps that the cell is pulling affect the number of plates?

[countryboy18]

if some one can make a chart with the number of plates on a 12V supply with the amps that work for each cell. some thing like this maby
Constant 12V supply
# of plates volt across plates amps drawing
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20

[Painless]

Take a look at this document on my wiki site, it goes into calculating cell / plate voltage and the ideals from information I've collected:

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/wiki/design:cell_voltage

[JojoJaro]

Guys, you need to use the value 13.8V when making calculations. 13.8V is what a running alternator will produce and what your gen will see during use.

If you use 12V, your cell might perform good and not heat up on the bench. But once, you put it on your vehicle, the voltage will increase and you could end up with a thermal runaway and not realize it.

For example.

+nnnnn- will give you 2 volts for a 12V system. However, that is 2.3V in a running vehicle.

+nnnn- will give you 2.4 V per cell for a 12 V system, which seems not too unreasonable. But that is 2.76V in a running vehicle, which could be enough to initiate a thermal runaway condition, especially inside your car engine bay.


I think +nnnnn- is still the best compromise between production and heat.

[mmickey]

thanks for the link.i understand now how to get th voltage per plate,but does the restance of your electrode leads and your jumper connectors depending on their length and size figure in to that also.are is to minamal of a figure to matter.should you take a resistance reading of the completed cell and use that figure to caculate the voltage drop across each plate.
marvin

[Painless]

thanks for the link.i understand now how to get th voltage per plate,but does the restance of your electrode leads and your jumper connectors depending on their length and size figure in to that also.are is to minamal of a figure to matter.should you take a resistance reading of the completed cell and use that figure to caculate the voltage drop across each plate.
marvin

Resistance will occur in your complete wiring system, yes, especially if you use stainless steel nuts and bolts as connections. However, the amount of resistance in some properly gauged wire will be almost negligible.

You could, as you stated, take a multimeter and measure the resistance across your wiring.

[mmickey]

hope im not being a pest on this.but i was just wondering if your using wire with crimp connecters if the chemical corrosion between disemaliar metals would come into play and if using dielectric grease or nolox like you would use when connecting aluminum and copper wiring together.not tring to second guess anyone just wondering if anyone has had the problem and what the solution was.
marvin

[Painless]

hope im not being a pest on this.but i was just wondering if your using wire with crimp connecters if the chemical corrosion between disemaliar metals would come into play and if using dielectric grease or nolox like you would use when connecting aluminum and copper wiring together.not tring to second guess anyone just wondering if anyone has had the problem and what the solution was.
marvin

I'm using 10 gauge wire with crimp connectors, for the first test in my youtube videos I didn't perform any kind of sealing to keep the metals away from electrolysis.

In my next setup, the 36 plate job, I will be soldering the connections and using heat shrink tubing and some very effective rubber splicing tape I found at Lowes to ensure that current travels well and the differing metals are not exposed to electrolysis.

[Painless]

Earlier this week I switched my truck over to running on synthetic oil, my main reason behind doing this was the longer service interval (15,000 miles) to save money (doing my own changes as well) and the reduced engine wear that a good synthetic oil provides. I used Mobil 1 Extended Performance oil along with their oil filter of the same name.

I've been running this for about 200 miles now and have noticed a small rise in my MPG from my normal reading of low 17's to low 18's. This is from the trucks trip computer. I don't consider 200 miles to be a thorough proof yet, I want to run through the majority of the tank before I decide that I'm definitely getting this much more MPG from reduced friction.

I also reset my trip mileage meter at my last fill up, along with the trip computers average MPG gauge. I want to compare the numbers both from mileage divided by gallons consumed and from the trip computer to see how accurate it is.

I'm working all weekend (two 12 hour shifts) but will have Monday and Tuesday to finish building my new cell, hopefully, by Tuesday evening I will have some more results, pictures and videos to share.

[Painless]

I have the results for the synthetic oil switch now after filling up at the pump:

Total miles: 320.1
Gallons used: 18.285

320.1 / 18.285 = 17.5 mpg

This is a small increase over standard oil, about .4 of a mpg. Not enough of a difference to me for a definite "It was the oil!" exclamation.

Coincidentally, I also wanted to compare the average mpg reading from my trucks trip computer. The computer said 17.9 mpg compared to the math saying the above 17.5. Not too bad, at least I know I can use the trip computer for some base HHO measurements.

Two days off, Monday and Tuesday, I've also been working on my connector welds and sealing during downtime at my job (I work alone and get lots of downtime!), should hopefully have my Pelican case 36 plate cell finished and some initial numbers by end of Tuesday.

[Painless]

I finished my new plate assembly today, would of been ready yesterday if I hadn't run out of solder :rolleyes:

Had a semi successful test, the Pelican case took exactly 2 gallons of distilled water to cover the plates, I added four teaspoons of KOH flake to this and brought the unit up to about 42 amps. At this ampage, I was only making half a litre of HHO in about 22 seconds, not very impressive for that kind of current. The cell got up to about 105 F internal electrolyte temperature.

After running a few time trials, I got into my truck to check the gauges and noticed that the voltmeter was showing under normal, reading at about 10 volts. Running the engine up to about 1500 rpm brought the volts up to the normal 14 odd level, but this is telling me that despite my earlier amp usage tests my alternator isn't keeping up with the load at idle.

Definitely need to look closer at my design here, I think that despite my plexiglas sandwich some of the electrolyte was spilling over the tops of the plexiglas to the adjacent plates. The more I think about it, the more I want to try and get away from an open bath design.

One other thing worthy of note is that my 36 plate setup consisted of 30 lowes switch plate covers and 6 from home depot (lowes had run out). The home depot plates didn't produce anywhere near as much gas as the lowes plates.

[Painless]

I've put up two videos on youtube of my experiments yesterday:

This first video is running at 15 amps (2 gallons + 2 teaspoons KOH flake):

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This second video shows the production difference I was getting between the Lowes and Home Depot switch plate covers:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/dI72gwXRsmY&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/dI72gwXRsmY&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

I've been thinking about my choice to go with 36 plates. I'm wondering if 12 plates, which were three times the width, would be a better choice? In other words, the same surface area but 2 cells of 6 plates instead of 6 cells.

[Painless]

I had some time this morning before I head off to work, so I decided to run another experiment:

I re-wired my setup so that I was only running half of the plates, 18 plates divided into 3 parallel cells, each cell having 6 plates +NNNN-. I left the remaining 18 plates in the water, but unconnected to power.

After switch on it was pulling just over 15 amps and generating 500ml of HHO in 30 seconds (1 LPM). After an hour of running, I measured one last time, the amp draw was about 37 amps and the electrolyte temp was up to 131F, at these parameters I was getting 500ml of HHO in 20 seconds (1.5 LPM).

This is only about 3 MMW which still sucks, in my opinion, but it's interesting that I could surpass my previous tests by using half as many plates!

Need to think a lot about where I'm going to go next.

[Painless]

I've been deep in thought over the past week as to where to go with my cell design next, I've been wanting to get away from the open bath approach and am also very interested in circulating the electrolyte to keep things cool and maybe even increase production.

I've come up with a design, which I'm piecing together at the moment, for a dry cell that is similar to the sid type of design. I'm using the switch plate covers from lowes along with some 'plumbers pack' (that's what it says on it!). The plumbers pack is basically a sheet of thick rubber which I'm using to cut out some gaskets to go between my cell plates. Basically, I am creating a sandwich of 6 plates, seperated by the rubber gaskets, and held together tightly to prevent leakage. I'm going to be pumping electrolyte from a reservoir into the lower hole and running a tube from the upper hole on the opposite side of the cell back to the reservoir. From there, I'm going to run to a bubbler.

The outer holes that aren't used for electrolyte input or output (on opposing sides) will be used to attach the electrodes. The cell will be a +NNNN- configuration.

The main component I'm missing at the moment is a pump. I've been looking at some promising units such as the Shurflo 8000, but don't have the cash to spare at the moment. I'll also need a reservoir, but think that a radiator expansion / overflow tank will be ideal for this.

So far, I've cut enough gaskets to allow me to build one six plate cell pack. I'm satisfied that the gaskets have given me an air tight seal (with enough compression).

Here is a close-up of the assembled plates (the SS bolts are just to keep them together at the moment).

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/IMG00001.jpg

Here's some pics of the plates and gaskets I cut from the plumbers pack, to give you more of an idea of what I'm doing.

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/IMG00002.jpg

Looking forward to seeing how this performs in contrast to an open bath with the same plate setup.

[BoyntonStu]

Good work man!

You are moving in a logical manner towards a better generator.

I am impressed by your efforts.

May you double your MMW to 6.

BoyntonStu

P.S. Where did you get the rubber for your gaskets?

[Painless]

P.S. Where did you get the rubber for your gaskets?

Thanks for the kind remarks!

The rubber came from Lowes, in the plumbing section, it's called 'Plumbers pack'. Comes in two thicknesses, I chose the thicker to start with.

The thicker rubber is just over a dollar a piece and the thinner just under. The squares are enough to cut two gaskets from, with plenty of excess left.

[Painless]

Finally got the test version of the Painless dry cell complete, I decided to follow BoyntonStu's good advice and start out with just a seven plate setup thus:

-NNNNN+

I purchased a generic coolant overflow tank today from an automotive parts store, it cost me $13 and makes an excellent electrolyte tank. Only holds 2 1/2 quarts, but I think that will be sufficient for now.

I removed the air resonator box from from my Ram's air intake system today and plumbed in a connection that will allow me to deliver HHO to within about half an inch of the idle hole (not sure what the proper name is for this, the air gap at the bottom of the throttle body butterfly that supplies air when the butterfly is closed). I'm confident that I will get good results here, due to the experiments RadGenH2O on youtube has performed with the same vehicle. I also predrilled all my mounts for the electrolyte tank and the cell, they are to be mounted behind the grill for good airflow.

I took some pictures of the cell and tank this evening, I used links as these are high resolution pictures, between 1.6 and 2 Mb each:

Top view of the cell:
http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0511.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0511.JPG)

Side view, the electrolyte will enter on the left (rear of the cell) and exit on the right:
http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0512.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0512.JPG)

Top down close-up, showing the 'sandwich' of plates, rubber gaskets and plexiglas a little clearer:
http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0513.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0513.JPG)

The cell sitting next to the electrolyte tank I bought today, looking closely you can see that it already has an input port at the top and an output at the bottom. I added the hose connector on the top for HHO output:
http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0514.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0514.JPG)

One small thing about that tank is that upon sealing up the exits and blowing hard into one of the ports, you can tell that a small amount of air is exiting, under pressure, around the cap seal. At first I was thinking of ways to seal this, then I thought that it might not be a bad idea to leave it and see as it would allow for contraction of cool air when the unit is switched off and the electrolyte is cool. I'm fairly certain that I won't loose any HHO this way during production as it will probably take the easier path out the top of the container as intended. Testing will tell.

It's gotten dark here now, so I can't test out the cell, I'm going to take tommorow morning to hook the cell up to power and see if she works as planned. Maybe even get some initial, pre-conditioning, LPM figures.

As you can see from the length of the threaded rod, I have room for up to 3 sets of plates eventually, should they be needed.

[Painless]

Did some flow testing with just distilled water this morning, wanted to double check that there would be no leaks under the weight of water through the electrolyser, unfortunately, there are small leaks between the nylon hose attachments and the plexiglas where they are mounted.

Not sure how I'm going to resolve this, I really don't have the cash to invest in some suitable adhesive.

[Painless]

I got lucky and just remembered that I have some Lowes gift cards somewhere in the house.

Can anyone recommend something I can get at Lowes that will bond the nylon hose attachments to plexiglas and withstand the heat / electrolyte of our generators?

[BoyntonStu]

What a great flexible setup for testing out ideas.

Bravo!

First a question: How were the electrical connectors affixed to the plates?

Second: As I said in all my comments about this design, the weak link is the tube connection to the dry cell.

I have been diligently researching adhesives, hot melt glues, etc.

I am in email contact with a hot melt glue manufacturer.

On a sad note, after 36 hours of running time the hot melt glue failed in the BoyntonPot. Electrolyte deteriorated the glue. Uggh!

So far, I have located only a single hot melt glue that is capable of surviving KOH.

Zero uses marine adhesive.

I have been thinking of another way to do it.

Use a gasket or an "o" ring and press the barb fitting to the end plate.

(There may have to be some support beneath to prevent distortion.)

You are doing great!

Keep going.

BoyntonStu

P.S. Here's another dry cell video for comparison and also check out his flashback arrestor. Note too, his comments about gaskets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxuTBCV76OY

[Painless]

Wow! That's one hell of a cell! I remember zerofossil fuel demoing one of these. I like the flashback arrestor too, quite a simple idea too.

To attach the electrode connectors, I used the flat type spade connectors and cut some tabs into the + and - plates for them to slide onto.

I had considered some sort of gasket, I am going to need to go for some much thicker end plates before I can use that option. I think I will do this anyway when I build my final 'going in the truck for good' unit.

[BoyntonStu]

Wow! That's one hell of a cell! I remember zerofossil fuel demoing one of these. I like the flashback arrestor too, quite a simple idea too.

To attach the electrode connectors, I used the flat type spade connectors and cut some tabs into the + and - plates for them to slide onto.

I had considered some sort of gasket, I am going to need to go for some much thicker end plates before I can use that option. I think I will do this anyway when I build my final 'going in the truck for good' unit.


Thanks,

I didn't realize that there was enough real estate to cut a tab.

I wonder what his gaskets were made of.

You Lowe's generator has given me an idea for a contest:

"The most efficient use of Lowe's plates to generate Hydroxy."

You may already be in the lead.

We will have to see MMW, etc.

Thanks for sharing.

BoyntonStu

[Painless]

No problem, sharing is what this forum should be all about!

I just got back from a trip to Lowes and purchased a piece of 1/4 inch thick acrylic sheet. I'm going to remove my aluminum end plates and replace them with the acrylic. This will allow me to mount the hose barbs properly with a good thread. I addition, it will provide an eye into the ends of the cell! :)

[BoyntonStu]

No problem, sharing is what this forum should be all about!

I just got back from a trip to Lowes and purchased a piece of 1/4 inch thick acrylic sheet. I'm going to remove my aluminum end plates and replace them with the acrylic. This will allow me to mount the hose barbs properly with a good thread. I addition, it will provide an eye into the ends of the cell! :)

I am eager to see the results.

See my brazing test on another thread.

We both have been busy today.

BoyntonStu

[overtaker]

Boyntonstu, Great idea... a contest. Count me in. What are you putting up for a prize? :D

[Painless]

I checked out your brazing thread, wish I had access to that sort of equipment. All of my work is done either on the garden bench or my kitchen table, I don't even have a vice which would be a godsend.

Earlier, whilst experimenting with bonding the nylon barbs, I performed a full test with electrolyte and couldn't even get the fluid to flow. Looking at sid youngs video I think I need to rededign my new end plates in order for a proper flow. Sids dry cell is a two hole and input output hose system (no hose for HHO outlet alone). I think the mistake I made is not having a lower hole in the space between the last plate and the end space. This is the only difference I can find.

I've gotten my quarter inch acryllic end pieces cut, just need to drill the barb and mounting holes. Will hopefully find time to get that done tonight or tomorrow morning.

[Painless]

I recorded a video this morning of my lowes based dry cell construction, hopefully, this will give a better idea of my cell construction technique:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/KrovCAzg_kY&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/KrovCAzg_kY&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[overtaker]

Good video. Thanks for sharing.

[Painless]

Well, I ran my first production test on the dry cell this afternoon and have to say that I did not get what I was expecting, the cell worked very well but I had to make a few changes to make it produce at all.

First off, I was running with the test setup at +NNNNN-, I went up to a fairly strong KOH and distilled water mix and couldn't even get one solitary HHO bubble. I have to say that this confused the heck out of me. I checked the whole setup for shorts and found none. I connected up to my truck and turned on the engine, still no bubbles.

I then did some experimenting and found that any more than 5 plates in series, i.e. more than +NNN- produced pretty much nothing, the config which seemed to create the most bubble flow was +NN-.

I then took the cell inside and rewired it as follows: +NN-NN+

I performed a test and achieved the following results:

1 liter of HHO in 50 seconds.

30 amps on the ammeter at 13.8v.

Using my spreadsheet, this works out to a pathetic 2.9 MMW.

After about 15 minutes, the electrolyte in the bottle was warm to the touch, the cell was warm also.

Really confused by these results, also wondering why on earth my cell would not produce as +NNNNN-.

Going to be doing a lot of head scratching and thinking this evening.

Any thoughts?

[hydrotinkerer]

I've been playing with a little 2x4 tero cell. When I first put it together I used 1/8" pvc, when compressed gap was more like 1/16". Didn't produce nothing. I ended up doubling my gasket material worked like a champ. My 2cents maybe it will help?

[Painless]

Now that I've had some time to think this through:

Firstly, the MMW is actually 2.9. Still pathetic, but a little better.

Secondly, there must be something causing an alternate current flow. A short with some resistance maybe which would cause the extra amp draw. If this short was draining volts too then it would also explain the +NNNNN- config not working.

Guess I have my work cut out figuring this one.

[BoyntonStu]

Well, I ran my first production test on the dry cell this afternoon and have to say that I did not get what I was expecting, the cell worked very well but I had to make a few changes to make it produce at all.

First off, I was running with the test setup at +NNNNN-, I went up to a fairly strong KOH and distilled water mix and couldn't even get one solitary HHO bubble. I have to say that this confused the heck out of me. I checked the whole setup for shorts and found none. I connected up to my truck and turned on the engine, still no bubbles.

I then did some experimenting and found that any more than 5 plates in series, i.e. more than +NNN- produced pretty much nothing, the config which seemed to create the most bubble flow was +NN-.

I then took the cell inside and rewired it as follows: +NN-NN+

I performed a test and achieved the following results:

1 liter of HHO in 50 seconds.

30 amps on the ammeter at 13.8v.

Using my spreadsheet, this works out to a pathetic 2.9 MMW.

After about 15 minutes, the electrolyte in the bottle was warm to the touch, the cell was warm also.

Really confused by these results, also wondering why on earth my cell would not produce as +NNNNN-.

Going to be doing a lot of head scratching and thinking this evening.

Any thoughts?

This is a very significant post.

You don't realize what you have accomplished.

1> Using only 6 wall plates, you have produce more than 1 LPM on your first day! That is amazing!

2> You have done with 6 plates that many with 12 plates cannot do.

3> You have proven that almost virgin Lowes plates with no additional drilling can be made into a 'dry' cell.

4> You have proven that a separate gas vent is not required.

5> You have proven that a pump is not required.

6> You have proven what a person using readily available materials without fancy shop tools, can accomplish in a very few days.

7> You have proven that no cell container is required.

8> You have proven the advantage of a 'dry' cell's capability of allowing one to rewire the plates within a few minutes.

9> You have proven that a bunch of gaskets will not leak.

I say that you have done great work!

I am impressed by your efforts and I am sure others are as well.

I suggest that you run the cells for a break in period to condition the cells, determine if the gaskets leak and/or need re-tightening, monitor the output, and determine the temperature rise.

This is terrific work!


BoyntonStu

[redneckgearhead34]

The video was great. I am hopefully going to pickup parts form mine in the next week or so. I will be sure to document everthing with video pics etc.

[Painless]

Thanks for the comments redneck, I should add that yesterday evening my electrolyte tank (the coolant overflow tank) I purchased sprung a leak, it looks like the KOH ate through the seal at the bottom of the container. I sealed it up with lexan last night and so far this morning it seems to be holding.

Going to be running some weak electrolyte tests this morning with the +NNNNN- setup from my jump box. I want to take some running measurements of voltage across the cells to try and find out why this config isn't working. My mulitmeter is only rated for 10 amps, hence the weak concentration.

[Painless]

Ok, I tried to hook up my multimeter to find out what was going on with voltage across each plate gap, but my multimeter had decided it was going to quit.

Instead, I decided to go gung ho and kept adding KOH until my +NNNNN- setup started producing HHO. I got up to about 6 teaspoons or KOH and it kicked into life! Right now, it's outside with 10 teaspoons of KOH in about a liter and a half of water. It's drawing 7 amps and producing well, although I can't measure how much as my electrolyte container is now leaking like a sieve and HHO isn't coming out of the exit tube. Guess I need to find yet another tank.

Seems you need a really concentrated mix of electrolyte to get this cell going, wonder why?

[Painless]

Here's a youtube video of my tests this morning:

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nSqDfOSYing"> </param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nSqDfOSYing" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350"> </embed> </object>

[jimbo40]

So far you have impressed me the most.
your work is outstanding.
Not sure why there is so little amp draw and so much electrolite though.
Maybe 1 plate to many?
Keep up the great work, and thank you.

Jim

[Painless]

So far you have impressed me the most.
your work is outstanding.
Not sure why there is so little amp draw and so much electrolite though.
Maybe 1 plate to many?
Keep up the great work, and thank you.

Jim

You're more than welcome and thanks for the kind comments!

I've been thinking big time on this again today and believe that the issue may be the larger gap that I'm using between my plates. The plumbers pack is about 2/16 " thick. On my previous cells, I'd used the thinnest width of a zip tie. I think I will rethink my gaskets and go for something that will allow a smaller gap.

[BoyntonStu]

Painless,

Thanks again.

Amazing what 7 Lowe's plates can do, isn't it?

It is so nice not having to worry about buying huge and expensive containers having to and make connection straps, seals, etc.

If you hadn't used the acrylic end plates, you would have a hole on each that needed to be blocked off.

What were you plans to accomplish this?

BoyntonStu

[Painless]

Painless,

Thanks again.

Amazing what 7 Lowe's plates can do, isn't it?

It is so nice not having to worry about buying huge and expensive containers having to and make connection straps, seals, etc.

If you hadn't used the acrylic end plates, you would have a hole on each that needed to be blocked off.

What were you plans to accomplish this?

BoyntonStu

I'm not sure what you're asking, how I would of blocked the holes off if I hadn't used the acrylic end plates?

I had pondered this for a while, but dismissed this approach as I'd also have had to find some stainless steel hose barbs and find a way of attaching them to the plates. Glues were pretty much out of the question as I hadn't found anything that would be suitable, some form of welding was also as I don't have the necessary equipment.

I'm on two paths now to improve my setup:

Path 1) Replacement electrolyte tank: I stopped off at Lowes on my way to work and bought a section of 3" PVC pipe along with an end cap and an inspection cap. Decided it was time to stop beating around the bush and use something that I knew would do the job.

Path 2) Addressing production: I think the goal here is going to be getting back to a low gap between the plates, the plumbers pack is great as a gasket, but too thick (compared to my previous experiments which used the thinnest width of a zip tie) at almost 3/16's of an inch thick. I believe this is a good explanation for needing such a high concentration of KOH. I had a look around Lowes for the shower mats that people are mentioning, but couldn't find them. If anyone can point me in the right direction here I would appreciate it! :)

After addressing the plate width, I'm going to settle on a plate config. Right now I'm using +NNNNN-, I've noticed that a lot of the dry cells seem to favour a +NNNN- setup. I'm going to try both and get a feel for heat vs production. Once I'm happy with this, I'll be adding more parallel sets to the cell.

As a side note and something that may get a few laughs, there is another reason I want to weaken my electrolyte. I had some spills today, what with my tank leaking as it did and somehow (I have *NO* idea how) managed to get electrolyte on the inside of my lips. It burnt like a **^%&#&#@&$. I rinsed with vinegar and then with water which helped. That was at about 11am this morning, it's now 7pm and my lips are still sore to the touch. I certainly wasn't laughing at the time, but am finding it worthy of a few giggles now.

[BoyntonStu]

I'm not sure what you're asking, how I would of blocked the holes off if I hadn't used the acrylic end plates?

I had pondered this for a while, but dismissed this approach as I'd also have had to find some stainless steel hose barbs and find a way of attaching them to the plates. Glues were pretty much out of the question as I hadn't found anything that would be suitable, some form of welding was also as I don't have the necessary equipment.

I'm on two paths now to improve my setup:

Path 1) Replacement electrolyte tank: I stopped off at Lowes on my way to work and bought a section of 3" PVC pipe along with an end cap and an inspection cap. Decided it was time to stop beating around the bush and use something that I knew would do the job.

Path 2) Addressing production: I think the goal here is going to be getting back to a low gap between the plates, the plumbers pack is great as a gasket, but too thick (compared to my previous experiments which used the thinnest width of a zip tie) at almost 3/16's of an inch thick. I believe this is a good explanation for needing such a high concentration of KOH. I had a look around Lowes for the shower mats that people are mentioning, but couldn't find them. If anyone can point me in the right direction here I would appreciate it! :)

After addressing the plate width, I'm going to settle on a plate config. Right now I'm using +NNNNN-, I've noticed that a lot of the dry cells seem to favour a +NNNN- setup. I'm going to try both and get a feel for heat vs production. Once I'm happy with this, I'll be adding more parallel sets to the cell.

As a side note and something that may get a few laughs, there is another reason I want to weaken my electrolyte. I had some spills today, what with my tank leaking as it did and somehow (I have *NO* idea how) managed to get electrolyte on the inside of my lips. It burnt like a **^%&#&#@&$. I rinsed with vinegar and then with water which helped. That was at about 11am this morning, it's now 7pm and my lips are still sore to the touch. I certainly wasn't laughing at the time, but am finding it worthy of a few giggles now.

I'm not sure what you're asking, how I would of blocked the holes off if I hadn't used the acrylic end plates?

Each plate has 2 holes.

Assuming you had welded a barb on one of the holes, how dod you intend to block off the remaining hole?

Lowes has 2 different thicknesses of plumbers patch.


Approximately, 1/16 and 1/8.

The 0.040 PVC shower stall lining is in the plumbing section on a roll.

I had to ask for help to find it.


As to the number of plates, cut tabs in a few, and short out what you think is extra for your testing.

For cold starts, use a relay to short out a few.

I am eagerly waiting to see your production figures on your slim cell.

BoyntonStu

[Painless]

Hmm, your photo rings a bell... I think I saw that today in Lowes. Will see if I can pick some up tomorrow.

If I do go for the smaller gap, I will need to re-think my power connections. With the 1/8th plumbers pack, the spade connectors are already within a hairs width of touching the next plate. I guess I could devise some sort of power rail system, but I have to say I don't favour that idea, although, with the dry cell approach I would be able to use a good conductor instead of SS. Some further thought needed here.

The big pain with the spade connectors is the angle of the plate edges, I already attempted to flatten out a plate but the end result was not uniformly flat, which I don't want at all! Once again, not having the right tools is a problem.

[BoyntonStu]

Hmm, your photo rings a bell... I think I saw that today in Lowes. Will see if I can pick some up tomorrow.

If I do go for the smaller gap, I will need to re-think my power connections. With the 1/8th plumbers pack, the spade connectors are already within a hairs width of touching the next plate. I guess I could devise some sort of power rail system, but I have to say I don't favour that idea, although, with the dry cell approach I would be able to use a good conductor instead of SS. Some further thought needed here.

The big pain with the spade connectors is the angle of the plate edges, I already attempted to flatten out a plate but the end result was not uniformly flat, which I don't want at all! Once again, not having the right tools is a problem.

Here's an idea:

Cut the tab slots.

Cut away on both sides about 1/4"


Cut away the immediate areas from the interfering adjacent plates.

You go left/right alternate sides for the tabs.

Or: Spot weld an extension to the tab.

BoyntonStu

[Painless]

I had considered cutting away from the surrounding plates, would like to look through some other avenues before I do that though.

As for the welding, I've tried to solder wires to the plates, but the results are awful and keep coming off. Not sure what spot welding is? Requires equipment I suspect :)

[BoyntonStu]

I had considered cutting away from the surrounding plates, would like to look through some other avenues before I do that though.

As for the welding, I've tried to solder wires to the plates, but the results are awful and keep coming off. Not sure what spot welding is? Requires equipment I suspect :)

Just an old microwave transformer.

A very simple DIY project.

With your talents and abilities, a snap.

See this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp7JF2sANsw

Hint: Use the welder with a bridge rectifier and you have your high current supply for a cell or 2.

Also another idea for your electrolyte tank leak.

Take a good sealing cap and screw base from a plastic jug or bottle and goop it on in place of the faulty cap.

BoyntonStu

P.S. Please look into potting/encapsulation plastics.

[DaneDHorstead]

This is a very significant post.

You don't realize what you have accomplished.

1> Using only 6 wall plates, you have produce more than 1 LPM on your first day! That is amazing!

2> You have done with 6 plates that many with 12 plates cannot do.

3> You have proven that almost virgin Lowes plates with no additional drilling can be made into a 'dry' cell.

4> You have proven that a separate gas vent is not required.

5> You have proven that a pump is not required.

6> You have proven what a person using readily available materials without fancy shop tools, can accomplish in a very few days.

7> You have proven that no cell container is required.

8> You have proven the advantage of a 'dry' cell's capability of allowing one to rewire the plates within a few minutes.

9> You have proven that a bunch of gaskets will not leak.

I say that you have done great work!

I am impressed by your efforts and I am sure others are as well.

I suggest that you run the cells for a break in period to condition the cells, determine if the gaskets leak and/or need re-tightening, monitor the output, and determine the temperature rise.

This is terrific work!


BoyntonStu
Stu;

I was wondering the electrolyte concentration he was using in this, but went on reading his later post, to find he was doing just as I had suspected, and which I have also writtent o you about in e-mails.

As I suspected, his electrolyte ratio was extreemly low, but working well with the three gap, but not the five.

You will note that I asked you about starting my test, (because of very narrow 1.1 mm gap), with an approximate 12 tsp of NOH

Note that I am getting very good 1.16 LPM at last test, using 1 tsp, with the three gap, and I have absolutely nothing whatsoever, with the 5 gap. (Mine is not a dry cell, but is instead, a very heavilly mummy wrapped set up.)

Note that I am gaped at 0.0435", while painless is at 0.065", and our production levels were similar at very low concentrations of electrolyte.

He started getting production at seven tsp, and bumped it to 10 for his video.

I had written to you, to ask about using twelve tsp, but in a quart, compared to his 1.5 liters.

While I have not done that yet (too busy with hurricane shutter business, in Naples FL), I think my estimate was for the most part right on target.

After, I get the Mummy plates reset to a 5 neutral set up, and get production where I want it (Im confident now, that its just a matter of adjusting the suggested 12 tsp, to maybe 15, or 16).....

I'm going to look into the dry cell, that you suggested to me.

I think we all learned something here, if all read the post.

I was headed down that same basic track, but painless proved the point, before I could have done it.

One other note I need to add to your comments, which I negatively remarked about in the e-mail you wrote me of, is the fact that he does not drill each plate, and gasket, to assemble the drycell.

Remember, I said that all the drilling, and custom cutting of the plates, and gaskets would get very expensive.

Painless proves this to be wrong, provided there are a few holes in the plates, to allow flow, from gap to gap.

That brings some rather interesting plans to mind, for me, to play with.

[DaneDHorstead]

My comments above are very well in favor of his dry cell, although i think flat plates should be used with the shower membrane, as gasket.

But I want to make the point that it was his electrolyte concentrations, that paralell my thoughts, especially in relation to the spacing. As he changes from 0.065" to 0.040", he will be very close to my 0.043" gap, with the very same plate config.

Wet or dry, the relation of spacing, and concentrations, should closely paralell.

Although I tend to agree, dry would be the better set up, especially in paralell stacks of dry cells, using common end plates, of a heavier material.

[BoyntonStu]

Stu;

I was wondering the electrolyte concentration he was using in this, but went on reading his later post, to find he was doing just as I had suspected, and which I have also writtent o you about in e-mails.

As I suspected, his electrolyte ratio was extreemly low, but working well with the three gap, but not the five.

You will note that I asked you about starting my test, (because of very narrow 1.1 mm gap), with an approximate 12 tsp of NOH

Note that I am getting very good 1.16 LPM at last test, using 1 tsp, with the three gap, and I have absolutely nothing whatsoever, with the 5 gap. (Mine is not a dry cell, but is instead, a very heavilly mummy wrapped set up.)

Note that I am gaped at 0.0435", while painless is at 0.065", and our production levels were similar at very low concentrations of electrolyte.

He started getting production at seven tsp, and bumped it to 10 for his video.

I had written to you, to ask about using twelve tsp, but in a quart, compared to his 1.5 liters.

While I have not done that yet (too busy with hurricane shutter business, in Naples FL), I think my estimate was for the most part right on target.

After, I get the Mummy plates reset to a 5 neutral set up, and get production where I want it (Im confident now, that its just a matter of adjusting the suggested 12 tsp, to maybe 15, or 16).....

I'm going to look into the dry cell, that you suggested to me.

I think we all learned something here, if all read the post.

I was headed down that same basic track, but painless proved the point, before I could have done it.

One other note I need to add to your comments, which I negatively remarked about in the e-mail you wrote me of, is the fact that he does not drill each plate, and gasket, to assemble the drycell.

Remember, I said that all the drilling, and custom cutting of the plates, and gaskets would get very expensive.

Painless proves this to be wrong, provided there are a few holes in the plates, to allow flow, from gap to gap.

That brings some rather interesting plans to mind, for me, to play with.

I was away in Court most of the day with my son.

I just read you other email.

To make a 10% KOH or NaOH weight solution mix 100 gm with 900 gm or ml of water. Water having a density of 1 gm/ml (gm and ml are equal)

Therefore to make 27%, mix 270 gm to 730 ml of water.

etc.

For your cells I would recommend adding 1 level half tsp at a time.

You can determine the ratio later on.

You do not consider the total volume, just the weight.

As for the dry cell, I believe that it can be made much cheaper than a wet cell.

Also, see how agile the plates can be with respect to re-wiring, etc.

I hope that this helps.

BoyntonStu

[Painless]

Well, I thought I would share my own stupidity:

This morning, I was drilling a hole for my hose barb connector into the top of the inspection cap. I don't have a vice or any method of keeping things still other than my hands. I picked the cap up to aid keeping it steady and ended up with a 1/2 inch cutting bit stabbed about a third of an inch into my palm.

Personally, I think of myself as an intelligent and careful individual, however, I succumbed to impatience and received a nice lesson as a result.

Keep this in mind when you're working folks! Especially those of you, like me, that don't have the niceties of a proper work area with all the right equipment.

[DaneDHorstead]

Painfull;


Sounds like you need to change your handle.

It's always easy to close the barn door after the horse is gone, but a three dollar C clamp, would have saved your hand. Always clamp small pcs. when drilling, as it is way too easy for the tool to grab the unit, and twist it away from your grip.

It's always easy to say I told ya so, but I know it's hardly welcomed advice.


But, then I also don't always follow my own advice, even if I do know better!


But, 90% of tool injuries are from the "I don't want to take the time to do it right", situation.

Even working with clamps, and a proper drill press, injuries can happen, especially if the bit is too fast, or too slow.

[Painless]

The inspection cap that I'm using for the top of my new PVC pipe electrolyte tank has a leak through it's screw thread. Any suggestions on the best way to fix this while still being able to remove the screw cap? Is there a suitable seal ring / gasket for this job?

I'm stopping at Lowes today on my way to work to pick up the shower pan liner, if there's something I can get there to use?

Thanks!

Russ.

[BoyntonStu]

The inspection cap that I'm using for the top of my new PVC pipe electrolyte tank has a leak through it's screw thread. Any suggestions on the best way to fix this while still being able to remove the screw cap? Is there a suitable seal ring / gasket for this job?

I'm stopping at Lowes today on my way to work to pick up the shower pan liner, if there's something I can get there to use?

Thanks!

Russ.

Russ,

You already have teflon tape that you used for the barbs.

Use about 4 wrappings of that tape and it will seal.

BoyntonStu

[Painless]

Russ,

You already have teflon tape that you used for the barbs.

Use about 4 wrappings of that tape and it will seal.

BoyntonStu

Thanks, I'll try that... I was under the impression that the teflon tape was for threads that would not be removed again. I guess even if it did wear I just need to apply a new wrap.

I picked up the shower pan liner this evening and a cheap $39 dremel, wasn't looking forward to the prospect of using a junior hacksaw to set up the tabs of all those plates. I decided to go with the cutting off from the neutral plates method for connecting.

My new electrolyte tank is built and ready to use (just need to seal the top cap thread) and I have this weekend off, so should be able to find time between Saturday morning and Tuesday evening to get some proper figures from the cell.

[Painless]

I plugged in my dremel to charge when I got to work today and just tested it out on an old spare lowes switch plate I brought with me. I have to say I am impressed!!!! The cheap $39 dremel cut through the stainless like butter! I also drilled some holes with ease and used one of the rough sanders to cross groove some plates... so much easier than the metal file. Could use an extension of some kind for the rough sander though, it's difficult to hold it face flat away from the edges of the plate.

Now I'm really looking forward to knuckling down this weekend and churning out a new plate config. I'm going to switch to the circle connectors and screw them on. My neutrals will have tabs cut then removed to allow room for the + & - plates connections.

[BoyntonStu]

I'm going to switch to the circle connectors and screw them on.

What are circle connectors?

BoyntonStu

[Painless]

I'm going to switch to the circle connectors and screw them on.

What are circle connectors?

BoyntonStu

Hmm... I think the proper name is a ring terminal... these:

http://airic.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008819719124/pdtl/Crimp-connector/1002799462/Vinyl-insulated-Ring-Terminal.htm

I am also thinking about the possibility of having negative connections on the left, positive on the right and running a (good conductor!) bolt through the whole setup instead.

[DaneDHorstead]

There goes the ability to do the quick changing of plate configurations, which was one of the best parts, of this set up!

Using ring terminals, or long conductor bolts, slows experimentation with configurations, to a craw.

Experimentation, and shareing opinions, is what the forum is all about.



It is my 2 cents, that in this case, the slip on connectors are best, and plate configurations, are best set up, using plates with 3 of the four corners cut to a small diagonal, with the remaining corner cut to allow the slip on connector. This allows all four corners to be used, to fasten current (if wanted), or the plate can be left unconnected, as a Neutral or "U" plate, as Stu calls them.

Construct unit, by turning each plate 90 degrees to it's neighbor (flipping plates, if need be), and you should end up with tabs on every plate, which can be quick changed, to virtually any combination of setups, within seconds!

You have a good thing going! Don't murder it, with ring connectors, and bolts.

[BoyntonStu]

There goes the ability to do the quick changing of plate configurations, which was one of the best parts, of this set up!

Using ring terminals, or long conductor bolts, slows experimentation with configurations, to a craw.

Experimentation, and shareing opinions, is what the forum is all about.



It is my 2 cents, that in this case, the slip on connectors are best, and plate configurations, are best set up, using plates with 3 of the four corners cut to a small diagonal, with the remaining corner cut to allow the slip on connector. This allows all four corners to be used, to fasten current (if wanted), or the plate can be left unconnected, as a Neutral or "U" plate, as Stu calls them.

Construct unit, by turning each plate 90 degrees to it's neighbor (flipping plates, if need be), and you should end up with tabs on every plate, which can be quick changed, to virtually any combination of setups, within seconds!

You have a good thing going! Don't murder it, with ring connectors, and bolts.

I second that motion.

Shall we call the vote?

Please don't short anything.

Here's other connector possibilities:

1> Instead of a slip on spade connector, cut a 1/8" x 1/8" notch in the corner. If there is clearance on both sides of the "Dane" corner, you could use a 1/4" length screw, nut, and go from there with your "circle" connector or with an extension tab.

2> Spot weld a connector tab to the "Dane" corner.

Of course if we were using Cutter's plates, the tabs would be waiting for our connections.

I hope that this helps.

BoyntonStu

[Painless]

I think I will stay with the spade connectors for now. The main issue though is that now my gap is dropping to .040 it will be difficult to attach the spades without cutting off the tabs from the surrounding plates. This will, obviously, make it much more difficult to change the number of neutrals.

I can't simply turn my plates around as I'm using unmodified switch plate covers.

I sat and cut out enough gaskets from the shower mats last night (making a template first out of plexiglas really sped things up!) to make a 19 plate setup thus:

+NNNNN-NNNNN+NNNNN-

I am going to be starting with +NNNNN- first though, just to get some figures on this arrangement.

I'm also re-doing my end plates, I want to bring the compression bolts in flush to the plates (with plastic sleeves over them) to minimize the plate bending due to compression. This should also make it easier to line up the plates with less fuss.

[DaneDHorstead]

I second that motion.

Shall we call the vote?

Please don't short anything.

Here's other connector possibilities:

1> Instead of a slip on spade connector, cut a 1/8" x 1/8" notch in the corner. If there is clearance on both sides of the "Dane" corner, you could use a 1/4" length screw, nut, and go from there with your "circle" connector or with an extension tab.

2> Spot weld a connector tab to the "Dane" corner.

Of course if we were using Cutter's plates, the tabs would be waiting for our connections.

I hope that this helps.

BoyntonStu
Stu;

I had forgotten he was using switch plates, as that makes it impossible to flip the plates(inside/outside), to rotate the tabs to all four corners. With flat plates, that would be possible. But with the curved edges, you are limited to just flipping top, to bottom, to get diagonal spade locations (unless you are using double wide plates, which are square).

But, using square plates, you need to redrill holes at the bottom, for water flow, as the screw holes, would then be higher (turned sideways).

[Painless]

Hmm, you've just given me an idea, Dane. I can cut a connector tab at the top right of each plate, then rotate it 180 degrees and cut out a gap at the top right, then I can just rotate the plates for different configurations. I'd still need to take the plates apart, but it would be something.

[DaneDHorstead]

Hmm, you've just given me an idea, Dane. I can cut a connector tab at the top right of each plate, then rotate it 180 degrees and cut out a gap at the top right, then I can just rotate the plates for different configurations. I'd still need to take the plates apart, but it would be something.
Exactly!

But note that if you had flat plates, then each plate could be turned at least four ways, or eight ways if square. And, by notching that tab, slightly off center, of the remaining corner, that makes it possible to have two slip on tabs, side, by side.

Not that you need two tabs, but in the case where two plates tabs are too close to each other, you can use the tabs which are farthest away, from the other, and cut the unwanted tabs off.

There is a very unique advantage to using square materials, as you can turn them every which way, as well as gaining surface area (and heat).

[DaneDHorstead]

Exactly!

But note that if you had flat plates, then each plate could be turned at least four ways, or eight ways if square. And, by notching that tab, slightly off center, of the remaining corner, that makes it possible to have two slip on tabs, side, by side.

Not that you need two tabs, but in the case where two plates tabs are too close to each other, you can use the tabs which are farthest away, from the other, and cut the unwanted tabs off.

There is a very unique advantage to using square materials, as you can turn them every which way, as well as gaining surface area (and heat).
I should have said Note that you do not need two tabs, but...........

I make way too many typos!

[redneckgearhead34]

Painless: Where did you get your shower mat? I was just at lowes and could not find any. I was thinking of looking at wal-mart.

4 everyone: Also I was sitting in school today staring at the wall in calculus and noticed we had these huge ss wall plates. They are just like the ones we have been using but twice as wide. So as soon as I got out of school I ran straight to lowes (typical teenager right?) and they didnt have any like that. So now I am on the hunt for some if anyone knows where to get them from.

[DaneDHorstead]

hope im not being a pest on this.but i was just wondering if your using wire with crimp connecters if the chemical corrosion between disemaliar metals would come into play and if using dielectric grease or nolox like you would use when connecting aluminum and copper wiring together.not tring to second guess anyone just wondering if anyone has had the problem and what the solution was.
marvin
If you use copper to fit (for instance), an aluminum spade connecter (outside the open bath), there would be some slight variance in voltage/current, and if possible you should always use like metals.

The copper to aluminum spade connecter, will not too severely cause you problems (unless it is submerged, in electrolyte).

But you should never use anything inside the bath, of a wet cell, except the better grades of stainless steel.

Don't even think of using else, as it will bite you in the ass, later!

[DaneDHorstead]

Painless: Where did you get your shower mat? I was just at lowes and could not find any. I was thinking of looking at wal-mart.

4 everyone: Also I was sitting in school today staring at the wall in calculus and noticed we had these huge ss wall plates. They are just like the ones we have been using but twice as wide. So as soon as I got out of school I ran straight to lowes (typical teenager right?) and they didnt have any like that. So now I am on the hunt for some if anyone knows where to get them from.
Redneckgearhead;

Never go to Wallmart, for building supplies!

If Lowes/Home Depot does not have it, go to an electrical supply house for switch plates, or a plumbing specialty shop for shower membrane.

Searching for stainless steel switch plates, don't forget to take a magnet with you!

If they respond in any way to a magnet, leave them on the shelf, for someone else to buy!

Many so called stainless cover plates, are only plated with stainless, and have a magnetic underlayment (meaning, it contains iron).

You do not want anything, to do with iron!

Also, consider that a specialty electrical supply house, will have a far larger selection of goods, and you can usually find blank plates, that only have the holes for attachment screws, but not the cut outs for switches, or outlets.

Similar is true of a specialty plumbing shop.

For example, they may have 0.40" membrane, or 0.60" membrane.

[Painless]

The shower mats are actually shower pan liners, you'll find them in the plumbing section at Lowes. They have it on a roll to buy by the foot or a big pack for about 28 bucks.

[Painless]

I got my new setup built and tested three configurations today using the shower pan liner as 0.040 gaskets, all tests used just under half a gallon of distilled water with two teaspoons of KOH flake:

1st test - Cold (80F), 7 plates +NNNNN-

Volts: 14.1 (actually measured this today)
Amps: 6
ML: 500
Time: 70 seconds
LPM: 0.43
MMW: 5.07

2nd test - 100F, 7 plates +NNNNN-

Volts: 14.1
Amps: 9
ML: 500
Time: 56 seconds
LPM: 0.54
MMW: 4.22

3rd test - 100F, 6 plates +NNNN-

Volts: 14.1
Amps: 37
ML: 500
Time: 30 seconds
LPM: 1.0
MMW: 1.92

4th test - 115F, 13 plates -NNNNN+NNNNN-

Volts: 14.1
Amps: 20
ML: 500
Time: 24 seconds
LPM: 1.25
MMW: 4.43

Some interesting points I noted during this testing today:

For the +NNNNN- configuration, the temp got to about 115f and stayed there, never rose over that mark.

The huge amp rise for the 6 plate test is interesting, 14.1 volts divided by those 6 plates must really be a bad setup for this.

For the other setups with 5 neutrals in each set, the ampage would get to a certain point (9 for the 7 plate and 20 for the 13) within a few minutes, but would then not go any higher even though the temp was still rising. The 13 plate setup got to 130f with the vehicle sitting still, I then took the vehicle for a 15 minute ride and measured the temp as soon as I got back, it was 120f. This tells me that my positioning, right behind the grill, is helping a lot with cooling.

I find it interesting that the MMW seems to drop with temperature. I would definitely like to think on some ideas for active cooling for this generator.

[BoyntonStu]

I got my new setup built and tested three configurations today using the shower pan liner as 0.040 gaskets, all tests used just under half a gallon of distilled water with two teaspoons of KOH flake:

1st test - Cold (80F), 7 plates +NNNNN-

Volts: 14.1 (actually measured this today)
Amps: 6
ML: 500
Time: 70 seconds
LPM: 0.43
MMW: 5.07

2nd test - 100F, 7 plates +NNNNN-

Volts: 14.1
Amps: 9
ML: 500
Time: 56 seconds
LPM: 0.54
MMW: 4.22

3rd test - 100F, 6 plates +NNNN-

Volts: 14.1
Amps: 37
ML: 500
Time: 30 seconds
LPM: 1.0
MMW: 1.92

4th test - 115F, 13 plates -NNNNN+NNNNN-

Volts: 14.1
Amps: 20
ML: 500
Time: 24 seconds
LPM: 1.25
MMW: 4.43

Some interesting points I noted during this testing today:

For the +NNNNN- configuration, the temp got to about 115f and stayed there, never rose over that mark.

The huge amp rise for the 6 plate test is interesting, 14.1 volts divided by those 6 plates must really be a bad setup for this.

For the other setups with 5 neutrals in each set, the ampage would get to a certain point (9 for the 7 plate and 20 for the 13) within a few minutes, but would then not go any higher even though the temp was still rising. The 13 plate setup got to 130f with the vehicle sitting still, I then took the vehicle for a 15 minute ride and measured the temp as soon as I got back, it was 120f. This tells me that my positioning, right behind the grill, is helping a lot with cooling.

I find it interesting that the MMW seems to drop with temperature. I would definitely like to think on some ideas for active cooling for this generator.

Excellent data.

I notice that if you tripled test 1 you would have 18 A producing 1.286 LPM at 5.02 MMW which is equal or better than a Smack. (254 Watts)

Congratulations.

In a week or 2 the production should increase.

I completed my cell today and I hope to be able to test it tomorrow or the next day.

Keep it up.

BoyntonStu

[jimbo40]

736

737I'm trying out what is used in my magdrive and I doubled it.
Check it out

-nn+nn-nn+nn-

[Painless]

Looks good, Jimbo. Looking forward to seeing your results and figures too.

I made a small change to my system this morning, I ran a hose inside the electrolyte tank that would deliver the return (HHO & electrolyte) down to the bottom of the tank and force it to bubble up through the electrolyte. Previously, it was simply pouring out into the electrolyte from high up in the tank.

The effects of this are that the system now stabilises at around 125F, pulls 15 amps instead of 20 and produces 1LPM instead of 1.25LPM. I believe that some alleviation of steam is partly to blame here. Here are the figures:

Volts: 14.1
Amps: 15
ML: 500
Time: 30 seconds
LPM: 1.0
MMW: 4.73

Going to work today on plumbing in the electronics in my truck, relay and breaker. Also want to see if I can run the ammeter wiring through the firewall somewhere and mount the gauge inside my truck.

[BoyntonStu]

Looks good, Jimbo. Looking forward to seeing your results and figures too.

I made a small change to my system this morning, I ran a hose inside the electrolyte tank that would deliver the return (HHO & electrolyte) down to the bottom of the tank and force it to bubble up through the electrolyte. Previously, it was simply pouring out into the electrolyte from high up in the tank.

The effects of this are that the system now stabilises at around 125F, pulls 15 amps instead of 20 and produces 1LPM instead of 1.25LPM. I believe that some alleviation of steam is partly to blame here. Here are the figures:

Volts: 14.1
Amps: 15
ML: 500
Time: 30 seconds
LPM: 1.0
MMW: 4.73

Going to work today on plumbing in the electronics in my truck, relay and breaker. Also want to see if I can run the ammeter wiring through the firewall somewhere and mount the gauge inside my truck.

A combination electrolyte tank/bubbler!

I wondered whether back pressure affected LPM.

BoyntonStu

[DaneDHorstead]

Looks good, Jimbo. Looking forward to seeing your results and figures too.

I made a small change to my system this morning, I ran a hose inside the electrolyte tank that would deliver the return (HHO & electrolyte) down to the bottom of the tank and force it to bubble up through the electrolyte. Previously, it was simply pouring out into the electrolyte from high up in the tank.

The effects of this are that the system now stabilises at around 125F, pulls 15 amps instead of 20 and produces 1LPM instead of 1.25LPM. I believe that some alleviation of steam is partly to blame here. Here are the figures:

Volts: 14.1
Amps: 15
ML: 500
Time: 30 seconds
LPM: 1.0
MMW: 4.73

Going to work today on plumbing in the electronics in my truck, relay and breaker. Also want to see if I can run the ammeter wiring through the firewall somewhere and mount the gauge inside my truck.
For the life of me, I do not understand how, releasing of vapors at the bottom of tank/bubbler, would effect the input of power?

We are talking a 25% decrease of Amps, and 1/5 decrease of LPM

Back pressure may account for a slight decrease of LPM, but how can that possibly effect electrical input?

[BoyntonStu]

24/30 seconds 25% increase in time.

BoyntonStu



For the life of me, I do not understand how, releasing of vapors at the bottom of tank/bubbler, would effect the input of power?

We are talking a 25% decrease of Amps, and 1/5 decrease of LPM

Back pressure may account for a slight decrease of LPM, but how can that possibly effect electrical input?

[DaneDHorstead]

Painless;

I'm curious to time difference between first test, and second test?

Configuration had not changed, but input jumped dramaticly!

Realizing first test was cold, did temp rise durring test, if so, from what, to what?

Any initial test, will not give best results, but it is doubtful that amps/temp remain stable for test, which your results do not show, when compared to 2nd test.

I'm not trying to be a pain, but curious.

All in all, the final test is best, to my mind, but again I'm curious of amps/temp in driving conditions, not just at idle, or parked.

[DaneDHorstead]

24/30 seconds 25% increase in time.

BoyntonStu
Stu;

That is an observation I overlooked, and it exactly corresponds to the electrical difference!

[Painless]

Painless;

I'm curious to time difference between first test, and second test?

Configuration had not changed, but input jumped dramaticly!

Realizing first test was cold, did temp rise durring test, if so, from what, to what?

Any initial test, will not give best results, but it is doubtful that amps/temp remain stable for test, which your results do not show, when compared to 2nd test.

I'm not trying to be a pain, but curious.

All in all, the final test is best, to my mind, but again I'm curious of amps/temp in driving conditions, not just at idle, or parked.

Second test, as written, was at 100F, first test was at 86F. The time difference was about 4 minutes.

As for the decrease in LPM via bubbling through the electrolyte, I believe the main difference here is that some steam is being removed.

[BoyntonStu]

Second test, as written, was at 100F, first test was at 86F. The time difference was about 4 minutes.

As for the decrease in LPM via bubbling through the electrolyte, I believe the main difference here is that some steam is being removed.


If I had to guess, I believe that removal of steam would be counterproductive.

I have observed many experimenters who reported increased MPG with steam and no Hydroxy.

FWIW

BoyntonStu

[Painless]

If I had to guess, I believe that removal of steam would be counterproductive.

I have observed many experimenters who reported increased MPG with steam and no Hydroxy.

FWIW

BoyntonStu

Agreed, I've heard the same. There is still some steam present in the output, seems that the bubbling doesn't eliminate all of it.

Got most of my wiring done this morning, ammeter is mounted inside the cab and the breaker and relay installed. All I need to do now is wire up the switching feed to the relay once the rain stops.

[redneckgearhead34]

Boytonstu,

Check out what I got!!

[Q-Hack!]

Boytonstu,

Check out what I got!!

Sweet! I was looking for those early on in testing. Never did find any localy.

[redneckgearhead34]

I found them at this place called Hunts Electrical Supply Company. They are local where I live, NC. They only charged 15 cents more than lowes does for the small ones.

[Painless]

Boytonstu,

Check out what I got!!

Nice plates!

Where did you find those? What ss grade are they?

[Painless]

I completed my wiring today and got my 13 plate dry cell installed. I'm running a 30 amp breaker into my ammeter, which is mounted in my cab, on to a 30 amp relay which powers the cell.

For now, I had to pull the cigar lighter fuse and borrow that circuit, it is ignition based though which I don't like. I scratched my head for hours trying to find the ASD relay in my ram. The docs state that the relays are in the TIPM next to the battery, however, it has nothing but fuses in it. If anyone in the know can shed any light here I would appreciate it. It's a 2006 Dodge Ram 1500 with the 4.7L v8.

I start a five day run of work tomorrow, so am looking forward to seeing what happens MPG wise.

[redneckgearhead34]

http://www.huntelectricsupply.com/

They happen to have a store near my house. I stopped in today and they had them in stock. They are only about 15 cents more than what lowes charged for the small ones.

The sticker says that they are 302ss. I figured they would be fine for now

[hydrotinkerer]

Boytonstu,

Check out what I got!!


I've got to find me some of those. What did they cost?

[redneckgearhead34]

I've got to find me some of those. What did they cost?

They were $1.83. They are very reasonable priced. They guy told me they also make them three switches wide or 3g.

Anyways I was really happy when I got them

This is ther main website. I tried searching for them but could never get an results.

http://www.huntelectricsupply.com/

[DaneDHorstead]

I found them at this place called Hunts Electrical Supply Company. They are local where I live, NC. They only charged 15 cents more than lowes does for the small ones.
Did you check to see that they are nonmagnetic?

There is a large advantage to using square plates, as you can turn them four ways, not just two. But to turn them side ways, drill several small hole at what will be about an inch from bottom and top.

[redneckgearhead34]

Yep, the guy laughed at me because I brought a magnet to the store to check them.

That is what I was thinking. The premanufactored bolt holes may be too smal for enough hho to flow through.

Whats your opinion on how big and how many extra holes I should drill? Just remember the more I drill the surface i lose.

[hydrotinkerer]

Yep, the guy laughed at me because I brought a magnet to the store to check them.

That is what I was thinking. The premanufactored bolt holes may be too smal for enough hho to flow through.

Whats your opinion on how big and how many extra holes I should drill? Just remember the more I drill the surface i lose.

I just took a grinder to the bevel on the back, When you grind it off you end up with a 1/4" hole.

[redneckgearhead34]

I just took a grinder to the bevel on the back, When you grind it off you end up with a 1/4" hole.

I saw that as another one of my options. I am going to get a dremel tool this week so that I can do detailed cuts/grinds like that. I could also just drill them out with a drill press.

I am going purchase the rest of my materials tomorrow so that I can continue with my construction phase. I will post pics and videos as soon as I am done.

[Painless]

That is what I was thinking. The premanufactored bolt holes may be too smal for enough hho to flow through..

Don't worry too much about the hole size, the holes on my plates are very small, yet the flow is good.

[DaneDHorstead]

Yep, the guy laughed at me because I brought a magnet to the store to check them.

That is what I was thinking. The premanufactored bolt holes may be too smal for enough hho to flow through.

Whats your opinion on how big and how many extra holes I should drill? Just remember the more I drill the surface i lose.
Others have already answered that question, and I agree with them. At the most, I would drill 2 ea. 1/4" holes at both top and bottom, about 3/4" from the edges.

[DaneDHorstead]

Others have already answered that question, and I agree with them. At the most, I would drill 2 ea. 1/4" holes at both top and bottom, about 3/4" from the edges.
I'm starting to think a dry cell might be the way to go, but fortunately my plates can be used for either wet or dry applications.

Being manufactured with 4 bolt holes, to prevent any warp, or bends in the plates, the assembly also lends itself to the drycell application.

I have had several communications with Boynton Stu, about that very fact, and we will be testing them as soon as possible, in the drycell design.

[Painless]

I removed the tube I had added that was delivering the returning electrolyte to the bottom of the tank, forcing it to bubble. The return now waterfalls into the tank from the top. The reason I made this change is because this morning, my cell was running backwards (gas was going up the delivery pipe).

I believe the reason for the cell running backwards is because as the cell cooled it was able to suck water in through the return tube. This created too much pressure for the unit to run at cold start, hence it flowed the wrong way and emptied the cell. Trial and error as always! :D

I drained and flushed my system this morning as the electrolyte had a lot of iron in it from the cells conditioning. I refilled and added the two teaspoons of KOH flake I had used previously, I started the truck and the cell ran at 35 amps cold! I gave it a few minutes, thinking the KOH wasn't mixed right and was at a higher concentration in the cell, however, it just ran higher and higher up to approximately 45 amps! What annoyed me here is that my 30A breaker didn't kick in and kill the power, my relay melted and I had to replace both the breaker and the relay.

Not sure why the breaker didn't work, it was wired correctly according to the legends on it.

Anyway, I recorded a video this morning after I sorted out the above mess and backed off to 1 teaspoon of KOH flake. I'll post when it's uploaded.

[BoyntonStu]

I removed the tube I had added that was delivering the returning electrolyte to the bottom of the tank, forcing it to bubble. The return now waterfalls into the tank from the top. The reason I made this change is because this morning, my cell was running backwards (gas was going up the delivery pipe).

I believe the reason for the cell running backwards is because as the cell cooled it was able to suck water in through the return tube. This created too much pressure for the unit to run at cold start, hence it flowed the wrong way and emptied the cell. Trial and error as always! :D

I drained and flushed my system this morning as the electrolyte had a lot of iron in it from the cells conditioning. I refilled and added the two teaspoons of KOH flake I had used previously, I started the truck and the cell ran at 35 amps cold! I gave it a few minutes, thinking the KOH wasn't mixed right and was at a higher concentration in the cell, however, it just ran higher and higher up to approximately 45 amps! What annoyed me here is that my 30A breaker didn't kick in and kill the power, my relay melted and I had to replace both the breaker and the relay.

Not sure why the breaker didn't work, it was wired correctly according to the legends on it.

Anyway, I recorded a video this morning after I sorted out the above mess and backed off to 1 teaspoon of KOH flake. I'll post when it's uploaded.

I noticed the same exact phenomenon, running backwards.

I tried it horizontal, upside down, reverse polarity, etc.

It is quite interesting.

I also noticed a very high output suddenly come on.


Conclusion, the cell need priming.

I am working on an automatic start.

BoyntonStu

[Carolinablue]

Just curious, does the - and + both pull the same amperage? Maybe both leads need to be fused. Normally this isn't the case, but what is the norm on all these different setups?

[Painless]

Ok, I uploaded the video I took this morning, the quality of this one isn't great as I used some video editing software to add titles and splice two videos together, but need to work on getting the right codecs for rendering it.

The video was still processing when I posted this so might not be available yet.<object width="425" height="344"></object><object width="425" height="344">
<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/TL_w8IFDRRE&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></object>

[gizzy]

Ok, I uploaded the video I took this morning, the quality of this one isn't great as I used some video editing software to add titles and splice two videos together, but need to work on getting the right codecs for rendering it.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/TL_w8IFDRRE&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/TL_w8IFDRRE&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Sir your Youtube video didn't work. Also did you mention dry cell. Look at the post I just put up. I thought it's impressive.. Just take a look...

[BoyntonStu]

Ok, I uploaded the video I took this morning, the quality of this one isn't great as I used some video editing software to add titles and splice two videos together, but need to work on getting the right codecs for rendering it.



<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/TL_w8IFDRRE&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/TL_w8IFDRRE&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Not working.

BTW Please indicate the steps necessary to embed your video here.

BoyntonStu

[Painless]

Not working.

BTW Please indicate the steps necessary to embed your video here.

BoyntonStu

The video is still processing on youtube, give it some time and try again.

To embed your video, just open it on you tube and copy the contents of the 'Embed' box and paste it straight into your forum post, unedited.

[Painless]

Been doing some thinking about the volts in my cell and am considering going from a 7 plates per set config to 8 plates. My vehicle is producing 14.1 volts, therefore, 14.1 / 7 gives 2.01. If I moved to 8 plates then I would have 14.1 / 8 equals 1.76 volts per plate. This would hopefully help leverage a little more HHO without adding a third plate set yet.

I think the most limiting factor in my switch plate design is surface area, therefore I really want to work on ways of increasing the MMW and reducing heat / amp draw. The extra plate might help with this.

Did my first long drive with the generator today on my way to work, it's a one hour journey mostly at 50-55. When I'm doing 45+ mph the cell never gets over 15 amps, I'm assuming that this is due to cooling through the grill. In town at 25-30 mph, the amp draw creeps up by 2 or 3 amps.

I'm also planning to replace my 30 amp electrical system for something that will break at 50 amps. I know that I can push up to about 45 amps through my generator whilst the engine is above idle, at idle I just need to turn off the AC unit.

[Painless]

I noticed the same exact phenomenon, running backwards.

I tried it horizontal, upside down, reverse polarity, etc.

It is quite interesting.

I also noticed a very high output suddenly come on.


Conclusion, the cell need priming.

I am working on an automatic start.

BoyntonStu

As concerns priming the cell, I've noticed that this can be done very easily by removing the return hose from the tank. Basically, allowing the cell to equalise pressure with the outside air from this end.

A solenoid valve that is open without current and closed with attached to the return line and allowing access to the outside air would probably do this, I'm also wondering if the one way valve I installed in my tank to allow drawing in outside air would facilitate this problem too. What do you think?

[BoyntonStu]

As concerns priming the cell, I've noticed that this can be done very easily by removing the return hose from the tank. Basically, allowing the cell to equalise pressure with the outside air from this end.

A solenoid valve that is open without current and closed with attached to the return line and allowing access to the outside air would probably do this, I'm also wondering if the one way valve I installed in my tank to allow drawing in outside air would facilitate this problem too. What do you think?

A diode valve is cheaper and easier to try than an electric solenoid.

Return line "T" or top of reservoir placement is equivalent.

I'm not 100% confident that it will work but it is easy enough to find out.

BoyntonStu

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the precipitate.

[Painless]

Well, my truck got to sit outside at work yesterday from 3pm to midnight, it was 60 degrees when I came out and went back to it. No problems with it running backwards. Same again this morning, sat happily all night and ran perfectly. Removing the down tube on the return seems to have cured the problem, the check valve for drawing in air may be helping too.

I put another half teaspoon of KOH in this morning, which brings me up to 1.5 tsp now. Coming home from work last night in 60F, over the hour drive my amps never exceeded 15 (just under actually), even driving through town at 30mph. The cooling through the grill is working extremely well.

I reset my trip mpg meter before leaving for work yesterday, I've done this a ton of times over the last few months combined with scrooge like driving to get my 17 mpg baseline which has been very consistent with the occasional drop to 16 mpg. Upon arriving home last night, my meter was displaying 18.5 mpg. Not going to celebrate yet though after such a short test and am looking now at steadily increasing my production and monitoring results.

I've decided against the 8 plates per set idea, I think it would be better to stick with 2 volts per plate especially with the excellent cooling I have going on. I'm going to work on installing a 3rd plate set next week.

I'm still also thinking a lot about incorporating a pump of some kind to aid electrolyte flow. I've been thinking about possibilities for using the engines drive to turn a pump instead of installing an electric one.

[BoyntonStu]

Painless,

The 'painless' way to pump electrolyte is with a 12 V electric pump.

Not much volume, not many A to pump.

Had you built your cell with double plate covers, you might have enough output.

I do not know the gasket dimensions that robbed from the active area.

The ares loss with a double plate or with a custom plate design (Dane ?) would be less of course.

BoyntonStu

[DaneDHorstead]

Painless;

I'm a little confused as to your position, now? You state 7 plates, going to 8, then later, you say you will not do eight, and are backing down the electrolyte concentration, to 1 tsp, from 1.5 tsp.

This forum is developed to help us by conversing our situations, and I wonder if I am going the wrong way, with mine?

I use a wet cell (but it could also be used as a dry set up), but I somehow managed to start with what so far has been my best case scenerio...
17 plates (3 gaped) to +NNN-NNN+NNN-NNN+ My plates are slightly larger, but not by a whole lot being 4.5 by 3 for the neutrals (pole plates are taller, for connections). I also need to note that I have a closer gap (0.0435" 1.1 mm, and my plates are 1 mm 304L)

Starting with 1 tsp per gal. distilled (NaOH), I got .48 LPM before burn in (1.19 after burn in), running at 14.1 v, bouncing between high 10s, and 11 Amps, at a high of 128 F. Note that I do not run them hour after hour, but I do run them often. Approx 45 min. is longest time run consistantly.

Before I changed plate config., I increased to 1.5 tsp, and Amps jumped to 28 - 30, and heat shot through the roof, to a melt down situation. On this, I changed plates to a +NNNNN-NNNNN+.

Stu, as well as others, convinced me I should try other plate configurations, and up to 28% by weight electrolyte concentrations.

It took almost a cup full of KOH, and I still have less than 500 ML of output.

So far, I believe the best case scenerio, was the original, which is more or less comparable to what you are using (as so too, are many others).

I note also, that many others, also find the 1 tsp. to 1.5 tsp. per gal (distilled), to be the right concentration.

I should also note, that I have also bounced back and forth, between NaOH, and KOH, and I don't find a whole hell of a lot of difference between them.

[DaneDHorstead]

I should also note that I have this test set up in front of my two jeeps, and I trade off which battery I use to test with (one pushing 14.1 Amps, the other is 13.9 amps)

That makes for a slight difference, in test results, but not by much. some of my postings however indicate the lower input voltage, and some use the higher voltage input. Switching electrolytes also, varies to a small degree, but not enough to convince me one, is better than the other.

If anything, concentrations may vary, as NaOH is granual, and KOH is flake.

It's easier to get a level tsp of granuals, than flakes, so ther is some variance in that respect!

[Painless]

Stu, the 12v pumps do seem like a good option, there are some out there that pump 1GPM at 1A. I suppose I was just trying to think of alternatives that might save me a few bucks.

As concerns area lost to the gaskets, my 0.040" gaskets reach out to the edge of the flat part of the plates (I tried gasketing the angled edges to increase area, but had issues with plates touching and not being able to keep the gap constant easily). To try and clarify my area loss by gasket, the gaskets rob about a 3mm border from the plates.

Dane, as concerns my position, I decided not to go for the 8 plate parallel sets (+NNNNNN-) because I want to stay up to 2v per plate. I have excellent cooling going on through my trucks grill and heat doesn't seem to be a problem. Even after a long drive I am only going to about 120-125F. The pump will help further with this during traffic stops and slower driving.

As concerns the KOH changes, my first fill of electrolyte was half a gallon with 2 tsp KOH flake (I agree that it's a pain to be exact with this, perhaps we should employ a method of specifiying concentration by resistance across a fixed area?), this first setup used about 20 amps after about 15 minutes warmup. When I replaced my electrolyte I used the same 2 tsp and the draw started at 35 amps cold and went up to 45 amps (despite have a 30 amp breaker). This is why I then drained the system again and dropped to 1 tsp. I should also mention that my tank holds about half a gallon of electrolyte.

The direction I'm heading in is towards a target of about 3 LPM, judging by others results with the same truck. However, I wanted to start low and slowly work up the output. The reason for this is that I want to see how far I can go with gains before the ECU becomes a problem.

I hope this answers your questions, Dane, if you want further clarification, please ask! I'm wanting to share as much as possible here.

[DaneDHorstead]

Painless,

There is absolutely no doubt that you want to share, and for all to bennefit, as so do I.

Although mine is wet, to your dry cell, we share many situations, as both of us spiked amps, and heat, with a relatively slight increase of catalyst (Me, from 1 to 1.5 tsp. you, from 1 to 2 tsp.)

And heat rose in a relatively similar relation, with mine nearing 28 - 30 amps, and yours, somewhere near 45. Mine jumped by nearly 19 amps, your jump was comparitively similar, given you doubled KOH, as I only bumped it, by half again.

Note that my Amp meter is automotive type, and is only marked at the 0, 30, and 60 amp locations, so accuracy becomes an issue.

We each reached the same conclusions (one cell wet, one cell dry), and can deduct that cell design, has little to do with the increase of heat/amps. Our cells are in some respect similar in area, except that you lose area, to gasket material (I don't (yet)). But then my gap is smaller, which in some respect compensates.

I have concerns about the pump, that moves a gallon a minute.

I'm afraid it will blow your gaskets out.

Even a bilge pump, might be too powerful, as it also puts out high volume. High volume confined to a small area, is sure to cause problems, especially when there is only 1 mm between plates, and there are only a very few tiny holes, for the pressure to flow through.

Is there some way to manifold both the pumps input, and output, so only a small portion of thet pressure, is applied to the plates (and gaskets)? To manifold it, a separate reserve tank is needed, and most likely, you would need to slightly restrict lines that return flow into the reserve tank (from the pump) so as to regulate return to the plates, without damaging the gaskets.

I'm also afraid that would put an end to using wall plates, as the curved edges, create problems. Flat plates, would allow far more torque to be applied to the cells, tightening gaskets in the process. Just as the heads of an engine are torqued against the head gasket, to stop pressurized water flow, from leaking into the cylinders.

An aquarium pump, I feel, would be much better! But, they are as far as I know, 120 volt, transformed down to 12 volts.

Can the transformer, be removed, and have it run on 12 volts?

I don't know, if it can stand up to the amperage, or how to reduce the amps, to protect it.

It's not my field of expertise. (actually my field of expertise, is drinking beer)

But Stu, can tell you!

[Painless]

Painless,

There is absolutely no doubt that you want to share, and for all to bennefit, as so do I.

Although mine is wet, to your dry cell, we share many situations, as both of us spiked amps, and heat, with a relatively slight increase of catalyst (Me, from 1 to 1.5 tsp. you, from 1 to 2 tsp.)

And heat rose in a relatively similar relation, with mine nearing 28 - 30 amps, and yours, somewhere near 45. Mine jumped by nearly 19 amps, your jump was comparitively similar, given you doubled KOH, as I only bumped it, by half again.


I think, when comparing my results with the thicker gaskets I used earlier, that the sensitivity to increased catalyst is directly related to the small plate gaps we are using. Bigger gaps need more catalyst, therefore it stands to logical thinking that a small gap would be more sensitive to changes.



Note that my Amp meter is automotive type, and is only marked at the 0, 30, and 60 amp locations, so accuracy becomes an issue.


Mine is the same, I am currently using the automotive one in my videos although I am considering purchasing a clamp type.



We each reached the same conclusions (one cell wet, one cell dry), and can deduct that cell design, has little to do with the increase of heat/amps. Our cells are in some respect similar in area, except that you lose area, to gasket material (I don't (yet)). But then my gap is smaller, which in some respect compensates.


Are you sure that your gap is smaller? My gasket material is 0.040". I still think that cell design can effect heat and amp draw, large open baths with little barrier for current leakage will naturally result in amp draw and unwanted heat. I'm not sure what you are using for a bath or if you have wrapped your plates?



I have concerns about the pump, that moves a gallon a minute.

I'm afraid it will blow your gaskets out.


I have similar concerns, most dry cells use a bolt through the gasket design (just like a head gasket as you mention) but nothing holds mine in place other than compression. I am considering reinforcing my acrylic end plates and making the bolts closer to the plates so that I can apply more compression. However, too much compression also gives me problems with plates touching.



It's not my field of expertise. (actually my field of expertise, is drinking beer)


But a worthy field of endeavour, nonetheless!

[DaneDHorstead]

I was actually referring to your first design, as to gasket thickness. I was not sure if your posted results, were from before, or after, you changed gap.

With my design, the prototype spacers fluctuate between 1 and 1.1 mm, as a mold for them had not yet been produced. that's the way with prototypes, and in actuality, we build them, to study changes we want to make.

I bought a clamp meter, and got it home, to find it only reads AC Amps!

The DC Amp meter is more than twice as much money!

I hate to spend $165.00 or so, to determine if I have 28.7 amps, or 29.4.

Prototypes...

My finished plates for example, will use four nylon bolts, 3/4 in and over, from each corner, so to guarantee even spacing, and eliminate warp/bend.

[Painless]

I bought a clamp meter, and got it home, to find it only reads AC Amps!

The DC Amp meter is more than twice as much money!

I hate to spend $165.00 or so, to determine if I have 28.7 amps, or 29.4.


Check out this one on amazon, a lot cheaper!

http://www.amazon.com/Mastech-Manual-Range-1000A-Clamp/dp/B000LY2WFG/ref=pd_cp_hi_0?pf_rd_p=413863601&pf_rd_s=center-41&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B000LY4UBA&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1E0E2BD6NN0K6XVDHHEA

[redneckgearhead34]

I have officially started constuction of my dry cell after days of procrastination.

I have a question for painless because you have built one most recently.

How did you seal the plate that is convex to the plexiglass? Also do they make taps for pipe threads and what size pipe do you use?

[Painless]

I have officially started constuction of my dry cell after days of procrastination.

I have a question for painless because you have built one most recently.

How did you seal the plate that is convex to the plexiglass? Also do they make taps for pipe threads and what size pipe do you use?

The producing plates in my cell use 0.040" shower pan pvc liner for the gaskets. The end plates, which are non producing on the outside, use plumbers pak 2/16" rubber for their gaskets. I had to use two on the end that fits against the concave end of the cell. When you tighten down the cell, you need to find a balance between good leak stopping compression and too much which causes the acrylic to bow.

I used 1/4" hose barbs and pipe for my system.

To tap threads I also purchased a brass hose barb with the same thread. After you've drilled your 1/2" hole, screw the brass barb into the thread as far as you can start it, then heat the barb with a torch and screw it all the way in to cut the thread. Let it completely cool before you remove it and use teflon thread tape when you put the nylon barbs in.

Good luck! Please share your results.

Russ.

[DaneDHorstead]

I have officially started constuction of my dry cell after days of procrastination.

I have a question for painless because you have built one most recently.

How did you seal the plate that is convex to the plexiglass? Also do they make taps for pipe threads and what size pipe do you use?
Redneckgearhead;

Yes! They make pipe taps for virtually every size you can imagine, but like the specialty plates, you won't find them at loiwes, or HD. This stuff gets really expensive fast, but you can cheat it.

You will need to go a plumbing supply house, or contractors tool supply, such as Northern Tool, Greenlee, etc. (very expensive)


Or, using a hack saw, you can cut a V out of both sides of a threaded nipple (cut so that one edge is paralell with length of pipe, and the other cut slopes to it (same on opposite side of same end. You only need to cut about 3/4" down the pipe, and slope the other side cut to it in a lazy V. The paralell cut needs to be on the L/H side of the nipple, as you look straight at it, and it should also approach the metal 90 degrees to the face of the circular metal (or ever so slightly less than 90 degrees to the LH edge. Leaving the threads to lean into the cutting edge, to make better cuts.

The wider the V you cut, the better, unless you go over 1/4 the circular dimension of the nipple, as that weakens the remaining metal.

You need a pipe nipple with identical size, and thread, as to what you want the hole to match. If you plan to cut threads into metal, you need a steel pipe, if cutting into plastic, brass will do.

If threading any type of plastic, you only need to drill a hole through the opposite end of the pipe, so you can place a bar through it, to use as a handle.

Drill the metal/plastic you want to thread, ever so slightly smaller, then enlarge it with the homemade tool.


If you are tapping metal, you will need to temper it. ( to temper it, heat it cherry red, and using pliers, drop it into a bucket of cold water).

Afterwards, you can handle it with your bare hands, and then tap metal with it.

Temper, is very important, as it not only describes the condition of the tool, it also applies to the condition of the man.

Good temper, is slow to heat, and very quick, to cool! It makes metal (and man), hard, and firm. The true measure of a man, is often rated by his temper.

Keep the tool handy, as it will come in handy, often times, making HHO stuff.

Keep the theory, even handier, as it is one of the most important lessons, in life.

[Painless]

This morning I've upgraded my electrics to handle 50 amps and wired the relays switch feed to a source that only runs with the engine.

I also added an easy drain system to my cell feed hose using a t barb and a tap.

I drained and filtered my electrolyte again before returning it to the tank. I then added more KOH ( up to 3 tsp now ) which brought the system up to 27 amps. At this concentration the cell temp hit 130F, so I decided this was the place to stop.

With this concentration I produced:

Temp: 130
Volts: 14.1
Amps: 27
ML: 500
Seconds: 25
LPM: 1.25
MMW: 3.15

Looks like I've reached a maximum for my 13 plate setup.

[BoyntonStu]

Looking good.

There are folks selling sealed 1 LPM cells at 3 MMW for almost $1,000!

With a PWM you can up the KOH and also keep the current as you have now.

Zero has developed a constant current PWM.

Start up to hot, same current.

FWIW

BoyntonStu

[DaneDHorstead]

This morning I've upgraded my electrics to handle 50 amps and wired the relays switch feed to a source that only runs with the engine.

I also added an easy drain system to my cell feed hose using a t barb and a tap.

I drained and filtered my electrolyte again before returning it to the tank. I then added more KOH ( up to 3 tsp now ) which brought the system up to 27 amps. At this concentration the cell temp hit 130F, so I decided this was the place to stop.

With this concentration I produced:

Temp: 130
Volts: 14.1
Amps: 27
ML: 500
Seconds: 25
LPM: 1.25
MMW: 3.15

Looks like I've reached a maximum for my 13 plate setup.
Good production, and somewhat comparable, to my original wet cell design.

You have to use more KOH, but you have a smaller plate area, given the gaskets, cover much of the plate's total area. With less metal realestate, more catalyst is needed, to get similar results.

I was getting 1.19 LPM, at 128 F, to your 1.25, at 130 F

I used the 13.9 volt battery, to your 14.1, but if I remember correctly, I used NaOH, to your KOH results. But I may have tested that with KOH (stupidly, I didn't write down the catalyst type)

Plate gap in each case, is virtually identical.

[redneckgearhead34]

Thanks Painless and Dane

I will use all of your advice. My plans forthis weekend changed so hopefully I can get it finished by then. I am off to work on it now so ttyl

[Painless]

Looking good.

There are folks selling sealed 1 LPM cells at 3 MMW for almost $1,000!

With a PWM you can up the KOH and also keep the current as you have now.

Zero has developed a constant current PWM.

Start up to hot, same current.

FWIW

BoyntonStu

I've had my eyes on zero's current sensing PWM for a while, been a *LONG* time since I built a circuit board though, something along the lines of 22+ years.

[H2OPWR]

I have made many cell's. Just a few suggestions. Design one has way too n many plates. I even think design two has too many n plates. The best production (mil's per minute per wat) has been with 3 to 5 n plates. It is also very important to limit water circulation around the plates with the n plate design. If you can find a way to stop the circulation and the voltage leakage from around the plates your cell effeciancy will go way up. One last suggestion is to go to a stainless steel shop and have them cut 316L stainless plates for you. They are way higher quality, will last longer and have less resistance than outlet covers.

[Painless]

I have made many cell's. Just a few suggestions. Design one has way too n many plates. I even think design two has too many n plates. The best production (mil's per minute per wat) has been with 3 to 5 n plates. It is also very important to limit water circulation around the plates with the n plate design. If you can find a way to stop the circulation and the voltage leakage from around the plates your cell effeciancy will go way up. One last suggestion is to go to a stainless steel shop and have them cut 316L stainless plates for you. They are way higher quality, will last longer and have less resistance than outlet covers.

Thanks for the input H2OPWR, I take it you were mainly critiquing my earlier open bath designs? I'm currently working on a dry cell using the Lowes plates with 5 neutrals.

The reason I'm sticking with the Lowes plates for now is for the reason of developing a cell that is very much in the reach and capabilities of everyone to buy the pieces from one place and use the minimum of machining to produce.

Welcome to the forum!

Russ.

[DaneDHorstead]

H2OPWR;

Your assessment is 100% correct, but his aim, is building on the cheap, where your suggestions, are priced from the opposite end of the financial scale.

One of the main problems facing folks who build these units, is trying to find everything you need, under one roof (which currently, is damned near impossible). And, I also imagine that to be even more so, in Alaska.

I'm not knocking Alaska, but it seems to me, that your availabe hardware stores, do not stock, the items we also find difficult to find, here! We tend to use items that, have a singular purpose (for an entirely different application), and instead of using just one of them, we need more.

Try to get 60 or more, 1 mm nylon washers, at one Lowes, or Home Depot, as an example.

One store may have ten of them, while the other has four.

Each of us, is well aware of the advantages of of working with quality ss flat plates, but at least to my mind, the quest in Painless's experimentation, is to go for what I call "paperclip simple". Some seek the smallest generators, to fit in tight places, under the hood, or even between the radiator, and the grill. Face it, they would put it in the glove box, if it would fit!

I, myself, prefer to pipe everything under the car frame, and to utilize the cargo areas, of my jeeps, but each of us is different, and has different requirements.

Especially, using common parts we might find around the house (Like Stu, cutting the handle off his wife's kitchen pots, to make HHO).

Part of it, is experimentation, part of it is a scavenger hunt, and most of it, is fun (at least until the wife finds out, what all you actually cut up, in the quest for HHO)

Actually, if you get good quality blank stainless switch plates, they work quite well (provided they do not react to a magnet) Many so called stainless plates are only a plated finish, over an Ironized base material, which ain't worth crap, for HHO!

By the way Stu, if you'r reading, I'll bet your wifes Sterling Tea Set, would produce a lot of HHO.

Painless, has few tools, as comparred to a machine shop, and has drilled a hole in his hand, to prove, there is absolutely nothing up his sleeve!

His point (in my opinion, at least) is to prove that virtually anyone can do this, for relatively little, out of pocket (especially, if he has a good hospitilization plan).

That is not to say, that nothing is spent, but it is spent in moderation.

[Painless]

H2OPWR;

Your assessment is 100% correct, but his aim, is building on the cheap, where your suggestions, are priced from the opposite end of the financial scale.




Painless, has few tools, as comparred to a machine shop, and has drilled a hole in his hand, to prove, there is absolutely nothing up his sleeve!

His point (in my opinion, at least) is to prove that virtually anyone can do this, for relatively little, out of pocket (especially, if he has a good hospitilization plan).

That is not to say, that nothing is spent, but it is spent in moderation.

Couldn't of put it better myself!

I also have to add that the hole in my hand has almost healed rather nicely, it was also worth it in that my dear wife insisted I went out and spent the $39 on a dremel (which I have fallen in love with!).

On a side note, I purchased a brita water pitcher replacement filter from Lowes this evening, it was very cheap! I want to look into using it to filter the electrolyte returning from my generator. Not sure if it will have the right results or not, but is surely worth some experimentation.

[DaneDHorstead]

Couldn't of put it better myself!

I also have to add that the hole in my hand has almost healed rather nicely, it was also worth it in that my dear wife insisted I went out and spent the $39 on a dremel (which I have fallen in love with!).

On a side note, I purchased a brita water pitcher replacement filter from Lowes this evening, it was very cheap! I want to look into using it to filter the electrolyte returning from my generator. Not sure if it will have the right results or not, but is surely worth some experimentation.
Painless;

I didn't want to be hard on the guy, but I thought he was missing the point.

As stated so many times before your plate configurations, production levels, etc, are approximately paralell to my own, excepting mine is a wet design. (I believe there are extrapolations, that can be drawn from those numbers, which could provide target concentrations, both up, and down the scale)

However, my mental approach, more or less paralells the man from Alaska's, in that I tend to say "damn the cost, full speed ahead" (even if I do refuse to purchase a $165.00 Amp Clamp, to get a two or three digit readout of amps used). The $10.00 amp gage satisfies my desire to estimate Amps drawn.

I understand your approach, as I also understand his. Further, I believe being in Alaska, has much to do with his thinking, in that supplies would be a little more difficult, to come by there, as compared to the big box stores, here. Not that they don't have Lowes, or HD, but that given Alaska's overwhelming size, and relatively small population, Lowes and Home Depot, etc. would be more reluctant to have as much inventory on hand, in these areas.

(Just as snowblowers, are a little hard to find, in Florida)


Here, we already understand that one store will not have all that we want, and there,it would have to be just that much worse! So, there, it would tend to prove better to deal with specialty shops, such as Stainless Steel mfgrs, etc., in his given situation.

My thinking falls in between both of those positions.

I have resources, for mass production (1,000 unit minimum), of almost anything concievable, but I can take only a few items on, at a time, due to my limited cash resorces.

I don't mind investing 25 grand, into something I believe in, but the 25 grand is already spent on 304L plate assemblies, nylon bolts, spacers, and o2 extenders.

I further want to develop products, that are especially hard to find in adequate quantities, and to avail them in qty. to resellers, at no more than a reasonable profit. As an example, I offer o2 extenders, at $1.50 each (100 per order minimum), identical to those found on e-bay, for $6.00, plus shipping.

Of the original 1000 304L plate assemblies, 700 are spoken for (but not collected, as I don't take funds, until I have product in hand).

I have several businesses, and I protect my reputation, at all cost. Shutter Motor Service for instance (my oldest company), can be found to have zero complaints with the BBB, for the last three years (BBB records only go back 3 years) In fact, I have had only one complaint in 11 years, which was almost instantly resolved, to the satisfaction of the customer. Note that I do not belong to the BBB, but they report that I have a satisfactory record with them, with "0" complaints. None of my companies have any complaints, with the BBB, and in my business, that is a rare situation.

With profits from those sales, I will reinvest everything (plus more), and expand not only 2nd purchase qty, but also expand the product lines to include tens of thousands of hose barbs, check valves, etc.

The people I deal with, have been manufacturing other products for me, for years, so there is a trust level already established, and we have good communication, on a regular basis. This simply is a new direction, of business already established.

I also have people poised to produce MAP enhancers, PWMs, etc., but that involves yet another two and a half tons of cash. (PM me, if you want to invest) Currently, those people, already build remote control devices for me, which I properly have FCC approved, and/or UL certified, depending on product requirements.

In other words, I do open honest business (in other fields), but am currently developing HHO products in my own name (rather than a current business identity).

My aim is wholesale bulk, for the individuals who wish to do retail business, and as Boynton Stu has pointed out several times, my design lends itself, to both open bath (wet cells), and the dry cell types.

Further, I plan to mold gaskets, for the use in dry cells. Molding eliminates waste, and allows multiple shapes, that might work with each other in a compressed state, to form a tighter seal, all combined into a single shape, in a non compressed state.

So, the basic questions remain, what can we each do to help each other, to what degree, and final conclusions?


Many will read this! Some will talk about it, and perhaps a few will act on it.

I have absolutely no doubt, that the biggest responces will come from the least expected places, but that does'nt mean that folks in regular communication of these ideas, won't get involved.

Huge opportunities are there, for those who act!

While the process of extrapulating hydrogen/oxygen from water, goes back centuries, with the advent of the computer (and forum) tens of thousands of people, are now active, in this.

And, in truth, the HHO search for information, is today, still in it's infantsy. But given the worlds fuel situations today, that will change very rapidly!

While today this forum has a few hundred people trading ideas (and secrets), only a small handfull of people in the world (by comparison) even know of HHO.

Tens of thousands, build their own units, at the kitchen table. That number will grow to an unimaginable number, in a very short time!

Of the hundreds of people, in regular communications in this forum, a very few, will bond together, which leads to new products, and designs to advance not only a new industry, but to create a new wealth of not only money, but of information, and comrodery

[redneckgearhead34]

Just a little update on how my dry cell is going. (see attached pictures)

I have to say I am a little disappointed in my construction skills but I think everything will work out alright and hope it doesnt leak like hell. My next step is too get a few more pieces of plumbers pack from lowes then a container for a resovior.

Let me know what you guys think

[Painless]

Just a little update on how my dry cell is going. (see attached pictures)

I have to say I am a little disappointed in my construction skills but I think everything will work out alright and hope it doesnt leak like hell. My next step is too get a few more pieces of plumbers pack from lowes then a container for a resovior.

Let me know what you guys think

Looking good! Looking forward to some figures on it too.

One piece of advice I can give from my own experience, don't skimp on the reservoir! Get something good straight off. I can thoroughly recommend the PVC pipe approach. If you do, get some of the goop (also from lowes) and use it to seal in the hose barbs, this is the only place I've had any issues. I discovered tonight I have a slow leak from the bottom barb.

Russ.

[jimbo40]

Just a little update on how my dry cell is going. (see attached pictures)

I have to say I am a little disappointed in my construction skills but I think everything will work out alright and hope it doesnt leak like hell. My next step is too get a few more pieces of plumbers pack from lowes then a container for a resovior.

Let me know what you guys think

Your cell looks very nice but I see a problem you will have with it.

your input and output are at the same level, you will be pushing gas out of both tubes and cause your cell to run dry, and then fill. dry and fill, dry and fill,

You need the inlet tube as low as possible and the outlet as high as possible
that way as the bubbles rise and escape to the outlet, they will drag water into the inlet, and it will create a convection giving you a constant moveing cool fresh supply of water as long as it is running.
I had the simular setup as you and it did not work.
It made lots of gas. but gas came out where it should have gone in

[redneckgearhead34]

I woke up this morning and I looked at my generator and noticed alot of cracking in the acrylic plexiglass. The cracks dont seem to go through both layers. I think I am going to replace them with a piece of lexan which would be much stonger(we used to shoot it with 38 specials rounds and it wouldnt break). As for now I will finish it with what I got and see how it goes.

[Painless]

As of this morning, I'd accumulated 15 hours of run time on my engine with HHO, so I decided to drain and flush the system and perform an inspection before I rebuild my cell with more plates.

Firstly, I drained out the old electrolyte, this was the third fill I'd put in there and which had been filtered once. It was nasty icky brown and full of little dots of brown sediment, which I assume to be iron. After draining, I flushed out with a little distilled water, then filled the generator with distilled white vinegar and ran it for about 2 hours. After this, I drained again and flushed with distilled again.

I removed the tank so I could clean it out and reattach the hose barbs using goop, this is going to take until tomorrow afternoon to cure.

The cell itself had accumulated a fair amount of brown residue, also, it is apparent that there had become a connection (short) between a bunch of the plates. I'm guessing that vibration caused this. I've been thinking about using electrical tape between the outer fins to remove this possibility.

Two of the gaskets had been burnt in one corner (see pictures below), but other than that they appear to have held up very well. My best guess here is that shorting is to blame.

I also took apart my air intake, after Smith's warning thread, and noticed that white residue had accumulated in my throttle body. I cleaned this out. I also took some pictures (below) to show how I've routed my HHO line.

The pictures below are high resolution, so I've posted links:

Two close ups of the throttle body, showing the white residue in the idle chamber:

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0521.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0521.JPG)

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0522.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0522.JPG)

The air resonator box, the large whole is where the air filter housing connects, you can also see the brass hose barb where the HHO line is attached, this feeds through an internal hose to the throttle body attachment point (left):

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0524.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0524.JPG)

View of the throttle body attachment on the resonator, note that the hose feeds the HHO right at the base of the throttle body, to the idle hole:

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0525.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0525.JPG)

This shows the 13 plates from my generator and their gaskets after disassembly:

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0530.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0530.JPG)

Close up of two plates:

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0531.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0531.JPG)

Close up of two gaskets that melted / burnt, probably a result of the short:

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0535.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0535.JPG)

The generator housing, showing the two thicker outer gaskets:

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0534.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0534.JPG)

As normal, I'm off work today and Tuesday, going to be rebuilding the generator with twice as many plates and addressing the short problem.

[BoyntonStu]

As of this morning, I'd accumulated 15 hours of run time on my engine with HHO, so I decided to drain and flush the system and perform an inspection before I rebuild my cell with more plates.

Firstly, I drained out the old electrolyte, this was the third fill I'd put in there and which had been filtered once. It was nasty icky brown and full of little dots of brown sediment, which I assume to be iron. After draining, I flushed out with a little distilled water, then filled the generator with distilled white vinegar and ran it for about 2 hours. After this, I drained again and flushed with distilled again.

I removed the tank so I could clean it out and reattach the hose barbs using goop, this is going to take until tomorrow afternoon to cure.

The cell itself had accumulated a fair amount of brown residue, also, it is apparent that there had become a connection (short) between a bunch of the plates. I'm guessing that vibration caused this. I've been thinking about using electrical tape between the outer fins to remove this possibility.

Two of the gaskets had been burnt in one corner (see pictures below), but other than that they appear to have held up very well. My best guess here is that shorting is to blame.

I also took apart my air intake, after Smith's warning thread, and noticed that white residue had accumulated in my throttle body. I cleaned this out. I also took some pictures (below) to show how I've routed my HHO line.

The pictures below are high resolution, so I've posted links:

Two close ups of the throttle body, showing the white residue in the idle chamber:

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0521.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0521.JPG)

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0522.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0522.JPG)

The air resonator box, the large whole is where the air filter housing connects, you can also see the brass hose barb where the HHO line is attached, this feeds through an internal hose to the throttle body attachment point (left):

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0524.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0524.JPG)

View of the throttle body attachment on the resonator, note that the hose feeds the HHO right at the base of the throttle body, to the idle hole:

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0525.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0525.JPG)

This shows the 13 plates from my generator and their gaskets after disassembly:

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0530.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0530.JPG)

Close up of two plates:

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0531.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0531.JPG)

Close up of two gaskets that melted / burnt, probably a result of the short:

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0535.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0535.JPG)

The generator housing, showing the two thicker outer gaskets:

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0534.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0534.JPG)

As normal, I'm off work today and Tuesday, going to be rebuilding the generator with twice as many plates and addressing the short problem.

Many thanks for your hard work, photos, and your willingness to share successes as well as setbacks.

I hope that what you now face is only a 'short' problem. :>)


BoyntonStu

[redneckgearhead34]

Nice info Painless.

I am still having some set backs on my cell.

Today while I was in school I put my cell on the dash on my truck just to see how it could hand a little heat. When I came out of school my plexi had cracked even more. All the cracks are where I have drilled holes and put pipe fittings, bolt etc. Painless(or anyone else) have any suggestions to preventing this.

[EltonBrandd]

I woke up this morning and I looked at my generator and noticed alot of cracking in the acrylic plexiglass. The cracks dont seem to go through both layers. I think I am going to replace them with a piece of lexan which would be much stonger(we used to shoot it with 38 specials rounds and it wouldnt break). As for now I will finish it with what I got and see how it goes.

Try using cutting boards for the end cover, you cant see through them but they are thick and will easily seal when you tap threads. I've seen several guys on other forums using them.

[Painless]

I would say similar advice, you need something thicker for your end plates. I use 1/4" thick acrylic from Lowes. You can get it in the window section.

Also, go slow with your drill bits in the plastic and make all your holes and cuts while the protective film is still over it.

[redneckgearhead34]

I would say similar advice, you need something thicker for your end plates. I use 1/4" thick acrylic from Lowes. You can get it in the window section.

Also, go slow with your drill bits in the plastic and make all your holes and cuts while the protective film is still over it.

Thats the thing. I glued two pieces of 1/4" acrylic together hopeing I could get a little bit , more rigidity out of them but I think that may have been my downfall. I didnt use the proper adhesive so it ended up just half way sticking them together. Then when pressure was pit of them, thee was a sheering force and it caused them to crack.

On the other hand, i did finish my cell today and tested it for leaks. I had to make a few adjustment but I believe it is sealed properly now.

My next step is to find a resiovior. I think I have one in mind but dont know if I can afford it until this friday. (which is mule days!!)

[EltonBrandd]

Thats the thing. I glued two pieces of 1/4" acrylic together hopeing I could get a little bit , more rigidity out of them but I think that may have been my downfall. I didnt use the proper adhesive so it ended up just half way sticking them together. Then when pressure was pit of them, thee was a sheering force and it caused them to crack.

On the other hand, i did finish my cell today and tested it for leaks. I had to make a few adjustment but I believe it is sealed properly now.

My next step is to find a resiovior. I think I have one in mind but dont know if I can afford it until this friday. (which is mule days!!)

Check out this link http://hhoinfo.ning.com/forum/topic/show?id=2068750%3ATopic%3A21657&page=2#comments

This contains a ton of info about a dry cell build, the guy building it has built almost every different concept out there.

His info is priceless.

[Painless]

Had some disappointing setbacks today, I sat down to finish building the 25 plate version of my Painless Dry Cell (PDC for short!), I used thin layers of electrical tape to insulate between the angled edges. The tape is good to 180F.

Unfortunately, when I finally got everything together I found that I just could not get enough compression to stop it from leaking.

I decided to cut some new acrylic end plates and run two cells side by side instead. Not sure how I'm going to run the electrolyte flow yet, but I'm working on it.

Anyway, I took some pictures:

This is my leaking 25 plate PDC:

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0538.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0538.JPG)

This is something I picked up in Walmart today, it's a Fren Fuel Filter. The hoses are perfect for a 1/4" connection and you can blow through it with nearly no resistance. I am thinking about using it on the return from my cell to collect all the nasty stuf whilst my cell burns in. The filter was less that $3:

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0536.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0536.JPG)

I'm also wondering if this will help with Smith's issue of removing lye / water vapour.

[Painless]

I just tried to put together just 13 plates, same as my old setup, and still got leaks.

I suppose that the electrical type, whilst thinner than the gaskets, it still thick enough to cause seal disruption.

I'm about to say 'stuff this' and seal the whole thing with goop.

[redneckgearhead34]

I was thinking about the sealing it with goop thing. It is a great idea except for the fact that goop is $4 a tiny tube and it would make it hard to perform any maintainence(sp) on the cell once it dries. I havent given up on mine yet even though the cracks are still MULTIPLYING!! I just need to have time to work on it. I hopefully will have time on friday before MULE DAYS (YEEHAW)!!

[resago]

for all the time, materials, and frustration, should I just get one of these and go?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/EBN-type-HHO-Hydrogen-6X6-X-6-Dry-Cell-Starter-Unit_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2em20Q2el1116 QQitemZ140269686649

[redneckgearhead34]

for all the time, materials, and frustration, should I just get one of these and go?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/EBN-type-HHO-Hydrogen-6X6-X-6-Dry-Cell-Starter-Unit_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2em20Q2el1116 QQitemZ140269686649


I like it alot. Get one and use it and let us know how it goes.

[resago]

painless, how much have you spent so far?

[Stevo]

for all the time, materials, and frustration, should I just get one of these and go?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/EBN-type-HHO-Hydrogen-6X6-X-6-Dry-Cell-Starter-Unit_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2em20Q2el1116 QQitemZ140269686649

From the ebay page (since the photo is rather misleading):

"-Photo above is a 4N4 - You will get a 4N1"

I can't stand it when the picture is not the accurate product image.

[Painless]

painless, how much have you spent so far?

In total, way too much, but then as you can see I've gone through several designs and trial and error tests.

My current generator, with 25 plates, could be built for less than $150.

[resago]

25!! good lord! what lpm are you shooting for?

[Painless]

I'm shooting for upwards of 2.5 LPM.

[Painless]

I stopped off at Lowes on my way to work, armed with some more gift cards. Purchased four more threaded rods along with wing nuts, nuts and washers.

While at work this evening I have put the 25 plate PDC together and tightened all eight bolts. I performed a blow test (please insert the random comment or cliche of your choice here) and NO LEAKS!!!!!

Can't wait to try with water tomorrow morning before I get her properly wet!

[Painless]

I also purchased a couple of parts this evening to build a new design of bubbler I've been dreaming up over the last few days. My plan is to build one that will remove the dangerous vapours of NaOH / KOH that Smith03Jetta has identified as attacking our aluminum engine parts.

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/Cleansing_Bubbler.JPG

The bubbler is going to be mounted behind the grill of my truck, here it will receive a good flow of cooling air. The HHO enters the bubbler and travels down the long spiral of tubing which is tightly wound around and down the inside wall of the unit. As the vapours travel down the tubing, hopefully, they will cool enough to condense back into liquid. This liquid and the remaining HHO and uncondensed vapour will escape from the end of the tubing at the bottom of the tank and bubble up through the distilled white vinegar with which the tank is filled. The bubbler is made from 3" PVC pipe with an end cap and screw in inspection cap on the top.

Hopefully, this might provide a solution to the problem. I've saved some aluminum cans that I'm going to use to determine the results of the experiment. I've already proven that the cans will be consumed by dropping one (cut into pieces) into about a 10th of a gallon of distilled water with KOH in it and the lid screwed on tight. The canister was almost ready to burst within an hour.

I'll post results when I have them.

[Westcoastrocks]

I hope it works..cause I am at a stand still right now with my HHO Gen and thats just a freaking shame!

[redneckgearhead34]

Painless:
Could you post some pictures of this monster you so graciously call a cell?

[resago]

you could augment the cooling effect with a peltier chiller or TEC chiller.
I used them when I water cooled my PC. Idled at 0C. 32C at load.
they work and are solid state devices and would hold up to the under-hood environment.

there are many places to get them, but is one
http://www.dangerden.com/store/product.php?productid=87&cat=30&page=1#tabs

[Painless]

Resago: Thanks for the link, I will definitely check those out.

Redneckgearhead: I did post a photo further up. I'm hoping to get it installed along with the new bubbler by this weekend and will post a video.

[resago]

typical use would be a stainless tube welded to a plate.the plate contacts one side of the peltier.the other side of the peltier would be a heatsink. Apply current to the peltier.
stainless tube would get cold, heatsink gets hot.

there ARE premade tube chillers, but I haven't used them and I would expect them to be more expensive, but maybe not.

peltiers on ebay are SUPER cheap! I just looked. get them there $7-$10 each!!

[Painless]

Ok, rain stopped play today but I managed to get my cell connections all finished and start on the cleansing bubbler.

Here's some pictures of the 25 plate PDC:

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0539.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0539.JPG)

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0540.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0540.JPG)

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0541.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0541.JPG)

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0542.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0542.JPG)

As you can see, the PDC has the feline seal of approval!!

(no animals were harmed in the taking of these pictures)

[Q-Hack!]

Is that your attack cat there? :)

[resago]

might want to get some 1/2" poly and replace the 1/4".

[TBill]

Hey Painless,
I'm new here and just read this thread through. That last pic sure looks a lot different from the first! ;) Great job!

I'm interested about the 25 plate strategy. If I see that correctly you are running -NNNNN+NNNNN-NNNNN+NNNNN- At 13.8 (rounding to 14), you are running ~1.7 / per plate. Would you run fewer if you plates were 2x as big? (ie: Would double wall plates still pull the same 1.7 in this config?


Second, I see that the neg is bolted to one of the "through bolts". That particular bolt is only one tape layer from two + plates. I would just bolt the pos and neg perms together well away from all the plates/cell as a whole. (Just an idea)

Great job and thank you very much for taking the additional time to document and share your work. Please know that there are those like me that truly are benefiting from your additional efforts and are truly grateful.
Regards,
TBill

[Painless]

TBill: My vehicle puts out 14.1 volts with the engine running, with 6 cells per parallel set this will give me 2.35 volts per plate, allowing for any drops in voltage to still give me 2 volts or more.

As concerns the way the ground wires are attached, the threaded rod is not stainless as it is outside the unit and I use these threaded rods to bolt the generator directly to my vehicles chassis, therefore it makes an excellent ground. I do see your point about the shielding from the plates, I'm going to move to a better insulator of this becomes a problem.

If the plates were bigger, I would probably run fewer plates as surface area really is king in production.

Resago: I'm wondering how the 1/4" will work with a 2+ LPM flow of HHO, although, theoretically it should be able to handle that.

Q-Hack: Not quite an attack cat, unless she sees a mouse, usually an "Annoyed that something else has my attention when she wants to spend every waking moment on my lap" cat.

I picked up a few extra bits from Lowes on my way to work this evening that I need to complete the cleansing bubbler and to incorporate splitting the bubbles up into smaller mini-bubbles. I couldn't get an airstone as I can only buy from Lowes with gift cards at the moment.

I'll post pictures later when things quiet down at work.

[Painless]

you could augment the cooling effect with a peltier chiller or TEC chiller.
I used them when I water cooled my PC. Idled at 0C. 32C at load.
they work and are solid state devices and would hold up to the under-hood environment.

there are many places to get them, but is one
http://www.dangerden.com/store/product.php?productid=87&cat=30&page=1#tabs

Just been reading up on those on wikipedia and browsing the online stores, the only thing that worries me is if they would stand up to the electrolyte solution or not.

[resago]

they would have to be seperated from the solution.Thats why I suggested a pipe on a plate or some kind of manifold you could mount to.

[Painless]

I built something to break the bubbles up this evening whilst at work, I took a 1/4" barb to 3/8" thread and screwed a 3/8" flare nut onto the thread. In between the barb and the flare nut I folded up and compressed in some plastic insect mesh (the kind you use for your screen doors). The result is a brass filter for the bottom end of my incoming HHO hose that should break the bubbles up into lots of smaller bubbles before they filter up through the vinegar in my cleansing bubbler.

If I blow through this bubble breaker I can still get good pressure, although there is a little resistance.

The only thought on my mind here is for the water vapour that condensates in the spiral down tube and ends up at the bottom of the tubing before the bubble breaker. I'm hoping that the incoming HHO pressure will be enough to force it through into the vinegar.

[Painless]

I got up early this morning, it wasn't dry out but it wasn't raining either.. great! Brought my truck over by my trusty picnic table and installed the new dry cell.

Started off with 1/2 a tsp of KOH in about 1/2 a gallon of distilled water, achieved 28 amps on the meter. This seems about right, half the strength of electrolyte and twice the producing plate area, so the same amps as before seems logical.

Let the system run for 20 minutes and checked amps, still 28. Performed a flow test, 500ml in 50 seconds... pathetic. At 14.1v that's about 1.5 MMW.

Checked the whole system through, no warm cables or connectors, cell is running at about 130F.

So, now I'm thinking, should I raise my electrolyte to twice the strength? Don't really want to blow a 50 amp fuse finding out. I also noticed that I got nasty brown gunk from the get-go, I suppose my cell may need a chance to clean itself out.

Guess I'll go relax in my armchair and finish my mug of tea, get some brekky and give it some thought.

[Smith03Jetta]

One note for you guys. Be careful what kinds of screens, plastic mesh and gasket material you use. Some of the material has dye in it that will leach out into the water/electrolyte mix. NaOH and KOH will pull dye out of stuff like dyed scotchbrite, air conditioner filter media and other stuff. Not a really big deal but something to think about. I'm not sure how the dye in the water will effect the output of HHO.

[BoyntonStu]

Russ,

I am becoming convinced that every cell has a sweet spot.

I believe that each cell must be tested to find that spot.

Beyond the sweet spot we get into the region of diminishing returns.

Add more Amps and get a little more output.

This is not the way to go for efficiency unless the heat and the power is not a consideration.

I suggest that we start out with very few amps and measure LPM and MMW.

Increase the Amps until you pass the sweet spot.

If you want more output and the maximum MMW you must do something else.

Treat, condition or scratch up the plates, change spacings, increase tubing sizes and if necessary add more plates.

Have you noticed what I have described?

BoyntonStu



I got up early this morning, it wasn't dry out but it wasn't raining either.. great! Brought my truck over by my trusty picnic table and installed the new dry cell.

Started off with 1/2 a tsp of KOH in about 1/2 a gallon of distilled water, achieved 28 amps on the meter. This seems about right, half the strength of electrolyte and twice the producing plate area, so the same amps as before seems logical.

Let the system run for 20 minutes and checked amps, still 28. Performed a flow test, 500ml in 50 seconds... pathetic. At 14.1v that's about 1.5 MMW.

Checked the whole system through, no warm cables or connectors, cell is running at about 130F.

So, now I'm thinking, should I raise my electrolyte to twice the strength? Don't really want to blow a 50 amp fuse finding out. I also noticed that I got nasty brown gunk from the get-go, I suppose my cell may need a chance to clean itself out.

Guess I'll go relax in my armchair and finish my mug of tea, get some brekky and give it some thought.

[resago]

have we found a direct lpm/sq_in set in ideal electrolyte and amp conditions? seems like something that could be extrapolated by now with all these experiments.
like to see bath vs bath&wrapped vs dry.

Ideal electrolyte and amp meaning no heat runaway, max output IE balanced system.

[redneckgearhead34]

I finally got to do a rough test on my cell today. Just to start with: I dont have an ammeter(on its way) and didnt test out put because I wanted to rebuild my cell do to my cracked acrylic(My dad has some lexan that an 1" thick that I am going to replace it with).

I had 1/4 tbsp KOH to 1/2 gallon distilled water

Ok to start with my cell configuration was +nnnnnn-. I could tell very little amp draw and almost no HHO production.

Then I changed the config to -nn+nnn-(because I had 8 plates and didnt want to disable it) seemed to have a decent amount of production. It started to get relatively hot to the touch and drew a more amps than my first set up.(still not sure how many). I took some videos.

This one is of general production
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/hl380jwr-Mo&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/hl380jwr-Mo&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Just to explain my set up a little. My resivior is from walmart and my pipe fittings are valve stems from a set of rims I dont own anymore and I like the way they sealed around the container. Then I have 1/4 fuel line tubing running to/from the cell. I put enough water in the resivior to see bubbles just so I knew they were there.

This one show how much water vapor containing KOH was being given off. Just thought I would show it since it has been a problem for most of us.
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/alEacZJXZPI&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/alEacZJXZPI&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Painless]

Russ,

I am becoming convinced that every cell has a sweet spot.

I believe that each cell must be tested to find that spot.

Beyond the sweet spot we get into the region of diminishing returns.

Add more Amps and get a little more output.

This is not the way to go for efficiency unless the heat and the power is not a consideration.

I suggest that we start out with very few amps and measure LPM and MMW.

Increase the Amps until you pass the sweet spot.

If you want more output and the maximum MMW you must do something else.

Treat, condition or scratch up the plates, change spacings, increase tubing sizes and if necessary add more plates.

Have you noticed what I have described?

BoyntonStu

I certainly have, every cell seems to have a point where the MMW stops rising and starts to fall.

I started off easy with the 1/2 tsp (was on 1.5 tsp before) and immediately ran into problems. What was apparent, however, was the huge amount of brown gunk that was coming out of the cell. To give you an idea, after 20 minutes of running time I drained the brand new electrolyte, it was dark brown like a cup of strong black coffee. That's pretty extreme for fresh electrolyte and a fresh cell.

I refilled the system with distilled white vinegar before I left home for work and have been running that with the fram fuel filter in line on the return hose. My idea here is to clean out the cell at low ampage.

About 25 minutes into my journey to work the amp draw dropped from 13 amps to nothing, I pulled over and took a look at my cell, it had emptied. I then turned around to say "I'm ok, thank you!" to the nice policeman who had pulled up behind me and had been trying to attract my attention (I couldn't hear him with my head under the hood and the engine running). As far as I could see, the fuel filter was already blocked and had caused the HHO to back up and empty the cell. I'm wondering what on earth is causing this much gunk in a brand new setup.

[Painless]

I just took a few minutes to pop outside to the car park and remove the fuel filter from my electrolyte return line. I also checked on the contents of my tank, again, nasty dark dark brown!

The filter had indeed clogged... quite surprising as this is a fuel line filter designed for cleaning up gasoline! It was very free flowing before and now I can barely blow through it.

This really has me confused, I've *NEVER* in all my experimental generators (dry or wet) had this nasty brown gunk problem. In the 13 plate cell, after several days of use, the electrolyte had a slight brown tint to it. The electrolyte also has lots of little brown specs in it, I assume this is iron.

I've used no new materials in the construction of the internals of this cell or the tank, the only real change (with that which touches the electrolyte) is the addition of 12 more plates (of the same type). I also prepared the plates the same way.

Anyone have any ideas as to what might be causing this dark nasty brown mess?

[resago]

maybe what you bought was only stainless plated and has worn off?:confused:

[Painless]

maybe what you bought was only stainless plated and has worn off?:confused:

I would be surprised if that were the case, these 304SS plates from Lowes are used by a lot of people.

Searching through the net, dark brown gunk seems to be related to people using tap water and its impurities. Something must have gotten into the generator or tank and polluted the water. I'm hoping that my vinegar runs will clean it out.

[javierf]

If you're using light switch SS plates, then I think resago's comment may not be far from the truth. I've never used those plates, but I would tend to believe they would be SS plated. I would suggest you dump your plates in an electrolyte bath where you can clearly see them and run them for a while paying close attention to where the gunk is coming from.

Good luck with it. Keep us posted!

[Painless]

If you're using light switch SS plates, then I think resago's comment may not be far from the truth. I've never used those plates, but I would tend to believe they would be SS plated. I would suggest you dump your plates in an electrolyte bath where you can clearly see them and run them for a while paying close attention to where the gunk is coming from.

Good luck with it. Keep us posted!

That's the strange part right there, all of these plates have been used before in my previous experiments (open bath designs). All the plates have a good 10 odd hours run time on them before being used in the dry cell.

The more I research the more I'm convinced that some kind of contaminant is to blame for the gunk. Most hits on google for dark brown and hho site tap water as the culprit, something must have gotten onto my plates. Hopefully, when I drain the vinegar tomorrow morning and flush with distilled water, the problem will go away.

[Painless]

Update for this morning, I drained the white vinegar out of my system this morning and flushed it through several times with half a gallon of distilled water. The drained vinegar was still dark brown, but not as bad as yesterday.

I refilled with more distilled white vinegar this morning and noticed that the amp draw has dropped about 3 amps. This tells me that there was definitely some conducting contaminent in the system.

I'm glad I used the clear acrylic for my end plates as I have a good eye into the end of my generator. I could clearly see the brown specs had built up at the bottom of the cells. This has to be iron that is leaching from the plates, can't think what else it could be. I'll flush it again monday, go back to KOH again and see how things are.

On another note, I completed my cleansing bubbler which I'll be testing on Monday.

[Painless]

I performed a further flush this afternoon, after draining the vinegar I flushed with more clean vinegar and then three times with distilled water.

My generator is still producing gunk

I took the generator out of my vehicle and took it apart, this is what I found:

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0543.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0543.JPG)

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0545.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0545.JPG)

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0546.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0546.JPG)

This does not seem to have occurred on every plate, but has naturally spread throughout the system.

[BoyntonStu]

Russ,

I am getting "Forbidden" when I try to view.

I have been thinking about the brown gunk.

I am 99% positive that it comes from something other than the SS plates.

My guesses: the sealant, the case, any metal not SS, chemical or other cleaning residue.

Remotely even the electrolyte could be the culprit.

Contamination?


BoyntonStu



I performed a further flush this afternoon, after draining the vinegar I flushed with more clean vinegar and then three times with distilled water.

My generator is still producing gunk

I took the generator out of my vehicle and took it apart, this is what I found:

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0543.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0543.JPG)

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0545.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0545.JPG)

http://www.hhoknowhow.info/~russ/images/100_0546.JPG (http://www.hhoknowhow.info/%7Eruss/images/100_0546.JPG)

This does not seem to have occurred on every plate, but has naturally spread throughout the system.

[Painless]

Whoops, I forgot to set the permissions on those jpgs on my linux server, they should work now.

I've removed four of the plates that seemed to be generating the nasty stuff. It seemed to be coming out of the plate surfaces.

I've now had to go to -NNNN+NNNN-NNNN+NNNN- due to the lost plates, at least it will allow me to try that config which seems to be popular among dry cell users.

Check out the pics, its interesting. The only thing I can think of that's different since I last used them is that they have been cross scored.
I should also mention that in the worst contaminated cell, it was eating at the PVC gaskets.

[BoyntonStu]

Whoops, I forgot to set the permissions on those jpgs on my linux server, they should work now.

I've removed four of the plates that seemed to be generating the nasty stuff. It seemed to be coming out of the plate surfaces.

I've now had to go to -NNNN+NNNN-NNNN+NNNN- due to the lost plates, at least it will allow me to try that config which seems to be popular among dry cell users.

Check out the pics, its interesting. The only thing I can think of that's different since I last used them is that they have been cross scored.
I should also mention that in the worst contaminated cell, it was eating at the PVC gaskets.

OK

The plates seem rusted.

Perhaps they are counterfeit SS?

Scrape off the rust and place them in tap water for a day.

Eating PVC? Hmmn! What eats PVC?

I have no idea.

BTW My Amoeba Cell reservoir is exceptionally clear and clean.

Did you see the video?

I ran the cell about 5 hours today.

I received KOH and I will compare.

In addition I built a flat plate Amoeba II over the weekend and it will run tomorrow.

It is a bit cleaner in design and the end plates have only one hole each in the active cell area.

Dane supplied the plates.

Also, I improved the Metamucil-ometer. Many have gotten a chuckle out of it but it works great!

BoyntonStu

[Painless]

After working on installing the 21 plate PDC this morning I have a big smile on my face.

As I mentioned, I had to remove four contaminated plates, this left me building a 21 plate -NNNN+NNNN-NNNN+NNNN- configuration. With 2 flat tsp KOH I achieved the following numbers:

Volts: 14.1
Amps: 27
ML: 500
Seconds: 17
LPM: 1.76
MMW: 4.64

I'm really pleased with these results, I also think I could reduce the amps if I could find a better plate connection solution than the spade connectors.

Wondering now how much better I could do with zeros PWM and a full strength KOH solution.

[resago]

wow, what do the think is the SQ inch ?

[Painless]

wow, what do the think is the SQ inch ?

Well, the used plate area (inside that wasted by the gaskets) is 2.5" x 3" per plate, which is 7.5 sq inches per plate, times 20 plates (two sides on either end are non-producing) comes to 150 sq inches, if my math is right?

[gizzy]

That's the strange part right there, all of these plates have been used before in my previous experiments (open bath designs). All the plates have a good 10 odd hours run time on them before being used in the dry cell.

The more I research the more I'm convinced that some kind of contaminant is to blame for the gunk. Most hits on google for dark brown and hho site tap water as the culprit, something must have gotten onto my plates. Hopefully, when I drain the vinegar tomorrow morning and flush with distilled water, the problem will go away.
wow painless.,,, I've ran into a simular situation. The other day I got a leak and drained my system to fix it. Anyhow. Before I put in my koh bath water. I drained and siffened it out 4 times. Got all the junk out. and filled it about a week ago. After driving about 200 miles and got the leak my water was as black as coffee:(... Re drained it and added straight distilled water and hoping to see a positive result. I hate to tear my system apart after all I went through the past month of building it.... I used Lowes wall plates.. Afraid of false SS like you mentioned.

[Carolinablue]

Are those ss wallplates magnetic? I would think that they would be a low grade ss. Just my opinion, don't know for sure.

[Painless]

Experienced an interesting phenomenon this morning with my generator:

Output had dropped to 1.5 LPM compared to the 1.76 LPM I was getting yesterday. Amp draw had also gone down about 2 amps. I added more KOH, half a teaspoon at a time, and the amp draw came back up but the LPM stayed at 1.5. Eventually, I took the amps up from the original 25 to 35, but still only 1.5 LPM.

I'm wondering if I have a gas leak somewhere, I just can't think of any other way to explain it.

[BoyntonStu]

Well, the used plate area (inside that wasted by the gaskets) is 2.5" x 3" per plate, which is 7.5 sq inches per plate, times 20 plates (two sides on either end are non-producing) comes to 150 sq inches, if my math is right?

Divide by 2 because the cell area is defined by the one way the current path area.

BoyntonStu

[resago]

not sure I follow?

[BoyntonStu]

not sure I follow?

OK

You have a 2 plate cell.

Each plate is 4x5 or 20 sq inches.


The active area of your cell is 20 sq inches.

Think of a square copper wire that is 1" x 1".

What is the area that passes current?

Certainly not 2 sq inches.

Same for a cell.

I hope that this helps.

BoyntonStu

[resago]

I'm not sure thats a usefull distinction. O and H go to opposite sides of the gap, so both plate surfaces matter.
if one plate were smaller than the other, it would effect overall performance, so I would say the cell has 40Sq In. of SURFACE

if we want to talk semantics, shouldn't we talk about err, whats the word, current flux?

[gizzy]

Are those ss wallplates magnetic? I would think that they would be a low grade ss. Just my opinion, don't know for sure.

You know I never checked for magnetism...I read some where about de-magnetizing plates before. I'm curious about this. If so can it axtually be done? Also if the ss is cheap which I'm sure it is. Does this coffee color junk effect the HHO production. I actually siphoned my solution off 4 times. And it was clean..

[Painless]

Now that I'm close to the 2 LPM mark, I decided to startt working on the O2 sensor on my truck. My Ram has a narrowband sensor but is a little different in that it uses a base or bias voltage of 2.5v. In other words, instead of sending a signal between 0 and 1 volt, it sends one between 2.5 and 3.5v.

I decided that the best way to start was to observe the voltages being put out by my trucks O2 sensor both with and without HHO. I cut the signal wire from the sensor and ran some twin core wire from the sensor to the cab. One core was wired to the signal wire coming from the sensor, the other core to the wire going to the computer.

Inside the cab, at the other end of the twin core wire, I twisted both cores together to complete the circuit. I took an analog multimeter and connected the positive to the joined ends of the twin core wire and connected the negative from the meter to the ground of the cigar lighter. This allowed the O2 signal voltage to be seen.

To my surprise, I couldn't discern any difference between the O2 signal with and without HHO.

I took my wife over to the johns hopkins hospital in baltimore today for a routine check up (about 180 miles round trip) and kept an eye on the multimeter when I could (HHO was on). The signal was mostly oscillating between 2.6 and 3.4v. When running at higher cruising speeds, such as 65 to 70 on I95, the signal was oscillating between 2.9 and 3.5v.

All I can deduce from this is that one of the following is true:

A) I'm not producing enough HHO to make a difference.

B) My trucks O2 sensor is rare in that it isn't fooled by the HHO.

I would very much welcome some input from others on this. I can accept that 1.75 LPM might not be enough for a huge MPG gain but not that it isn't enough for the O2 to notice even at low RPM and low throttle.

I've been working on using an AA battery in conjunction with a 10k potentiometer to provide a small 0 to 400 millivolt signal that could be added to the O2 output. It seems that quite a few people have been working on such a system as an alternative to an EFIE.

[Carolinablue]

Are you not getting any mileage improvement with the 2 lpm? 180 mile drive should give ya something to go on.

[redneckgearhead34]

Painless,
Are you gonig to put the Painless efie in series or paralell

[Painless]

Painless,
Are you gonig to put the Painless efie in series or paralell

I'm not sure at the moment, having a lot of problems getting it to work. Take a look at my post in the alternative to EFIE thread here:

http://www.hhoforums.com/showpost.php?p=14825&postcount=9

[Painless]

Are you not getting any mileage improvement with the 2 lpm? 180 mile drive should give ya something to go on.

I'm seeing maybe a 3 mpg gain at 30 mph and lower, that's it.

[Painless]

Good news!

I have finally discovered why I'm not getting any or much gains on my system, also why my measurements of LPM have been odd to say the least.

My system has a leak that only shows under enough pressure in the screw in cap of the resorvoir. I stopped off at Lowes this evening on my way to work and picked up a replacement.

To help things meanwhile I used a ludicrous amount of electrical tape to somewhat stop the leak. On the way to work this evening I gained 3 mpg at highway speeds. I also finally say some different reaction from my O2 sensor.

My voltage adder circuit is still confusing the heck out of me though.

[redneckgearhead34]

I had some fat rubber bands sitting around I used to seal my old water4gas cell. I believe I found them at office max, but they would only be a temporary solution.

Btw I like you simple EFIE. I also wanted to know which motor you have in your dodge.

[Painless]

I had some fat rubber bands sitting around I used to seal my old water4gas cell. I believe I found them at office max, but they would only be a temporary solution.

Btw I like you simple EFIE. I also wanted to know which motor you have in your dodge.

My dodge has the 4.7L v8 "Magnum" engine.

As for the EFIE, it doesn't seem to be working well for me. I think the problem is that my O2 uses a 2.5v base voltage, in other words it sends a signal between 2.5 and 3.5 volts, instead of the usual 0-1v.

[javierf]

Painless,

Saw your diagram, but don't understand why you have a 1.5V battery in there. The pot should control the voltage from 0 to whatever the sensor uses as max. Eliminate the battery and make sure that the pot provides (at its high position) the max voltage the sensor provides when there's no pot.

[Painless]

Painless,

Saw your diagram, but don't understand why you have a 1.5V battery in there. The pot should control the voltage from 0 to whatever the sensor uses as max. Eliminate the battery and make sure that the pot provides (at its high position) the max voltage the sensor provides when there's no pot.

Javierf, the 1.5v battery is there to add voltage to the signal from the sensor. I want to take the O2 sensor signal, which is between 2.5 and 3.5v and add anywhere between 0 and 0.4v to it with the pot.

I need to add voltage to make the ECU think it's running rich.

[Painless]

I just found another schematic for what seems to be widely known as the poor mans efie, this one has the ground and o2 signal wires connected differently, going to give it a shot in the morning and see if it works.

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t39/Bingerz_photos/HHO%20Project/EFIESimpleCircuit.jpg

[javierf]

hmmm. I declare myself totally ignorant in the electrical part of the MAP/MAF/ECU components. However, from what I've read, the O2 sensor goes to the MAP/MAF and from there to the ECU. I "think" that you have to use the pot between the MAP/MAF and the ECU. The MAP/MAF provides the voltage range necessary to indicate the status of the O2 sensors. Therefore, the pot should allow you to control that range. I haven't got to that point of testing since I have only done some testing with a car without an ECU.

If I remember right, a lower voltage indicates less presence of oxygen. Therefore, if you're adding oxygen through your generator, the sensor will report a higher voltage. Your pot should allow you to reduce that voltage (reported to the ECU) to make the engine think its oxygen mixture is fine, preventing it from injecting more fuel into the engine.

I'm still not convinced that making that change to the sensors is healthy for the engine, since you can lean it to a harmful point. I'm also not convinced that it's absolutely necessary. Taking fuel economy to its maximum possible may not be the best option. I would much rather safe less but without damaging the engine. I'm not a mechanic, but have been working on this project with one. He'll be testing for cylinder temperature, any presence of unwanted residues (like Smith experienced), etc and will report any findings. I don't have too much time for this project right now, but will share anything I may consider useful for everyone else.

Please correct me, anybody, if I'm wrong.

[resago]

you should see at what rpm the O2 sensor stops being influenced by the booster.
It occurs to me that at the low output we are making that it will only effect the engine in the low to mid low rpm range. So you want the efie to only effect readings during that range.
you could control this with an RPM switch found on ebay or summit/jegs/jcwhitney.

this would prevent you from leaning out at high rpm.

[Painless]

Had an excellent morning this morning :-)

1) Fixed the leak in my resorvoir cap, found some thread sealing tape at Lowes that is designed for high gas pressures. Its in the plumbing section in a yellow container.

2) Noticed foam was being forced out the HHO outlet from the resorvoir once I had fixed the seal, I crammed some screen door mesh into the lid, fixed that issue.

3) Got my poor mans EFIE working, the new schematic I found works! (See my last post in 'an alternative to EFIE'.

Here are the results of this mornings flow test:

Volts: 14.1
Amps: 30
Temp: 120f
ML: 500
Time: 15 seconds
LPM: 2.0
MMW: 4.73

Really pleased with these results, I also know that I can reduce my amp draw further by finding a better way to attach the plate electrodes than the spade connectors. They are getting warm and are a pain in the arse to keep in place.

Looking forward to my drive to work today to see if there is any change in MPG. I also need to fill up which will allow me to check MPG the more reliable way.

[redneckgearhead34]

Painless,
I don't believe I mentioned that I have decided to get away from the wall plate construction. I have a readily available and free supply of high grade ss. All I have to do is cut it up into what I want. I have just been too lazy to do that and I really didnt have a great way to cut it. So since tuesday I have been cutting out plates with a sawsall. They didnt turn out that bad. My cuts were actually straight.

the point I am trying to get to is I can cut tabs on the plates so that I can bolt a terminal onto the plate for a better connection. I will post pictures of what I have finished when I get home.

I will not be able to work on my cell for the next week or two. My grade in calculus is low(75). My parents have banned me from the shop and from HHO experimenting. I believe I need the time to concentrate on school too. But dont worry I will be up and running soon.

[Painless]

Sounds to me like you are on the right track, I'd be using 316L stainless if I could afford to buy it. Better SS can only make this cell better.

If you're going that route I would thoroughly suggest going for bolt through gaskets, i.e. the gaskets have holes for the bolts and slide over them along with the plates, this will give you a much stronger seal.

[redneckgearhead34]

I never thought of something like that. I may use it on the next one I build. I am going to go with I got for now and see how it works. The guy that supplies me with the ss says he wants one to put on his truck.

grrrr... I wish my calc grade wasnt so low

[VanHalen]

O K I have just read this whole thread. It has convinced me to try and build a dry cell. I honestly don't fully understand them though, so correct me if I'm wrong. So the the water is replenished via a pump. The inlet valve on the cell has to be as low as possible and the outlet valve for HHO high. the electrolyte is actually in the resorvoir, and is cycled through the cell via the pump. The cell can be held by bolts or with acrylic end plates and compression. Thats basically it right, besides figuring out with +-N combo works best. Use at least 304 Lowes plates that aren't magnetic.

-So how does the gas travel to the outlet valve, if each one is sealed and there's a bolt running through the two holes?
-If the HHO is going out the output valve, should it come out the resorvoir into or out of the water? and shouldn't that create a pumping motion by itself?

Sorry for all the questions. Anything else is greatly appreciated. I'm going to reread this thread in the meantime.

[Painless]

Before I tackle your questions directly, I want to make it clear that you DO NOT need a pump! I don't use one with my dry cell, the pressure of the gas and the natural convection of hotter electrolyte will cause the electrolyte to flow.

Electrolyte flows via gravity out the bottom of the reservoir (which must be mounted higher than the top of the cell). This is fed in at the bottom hole and rises to the level of the top hole in the plates. As HHO is created and the electrolyte heated, the electrolyte (and HHO) will spill through the top holes and back up the return pipe to the reservoir.

You can use a pump, if you want to, the advantage here will be better cooling but no increase in production.


-So how does the gas travel to the outlet valve, if each one is sealed and there's a bolt running through the two holes?


The two bolt holes in the lowes switchplate covers are not sealed, if they were the cell would not work. The plates are held together by compression and sealed via gaskets, nothing else. As I mentioned above, the lower hole maintains the electrolyte flow to fill the cell and the top hole sets the rising point and allows the gas and electrolyte to flow out.



-If the HHO is going out the output valve, should it come out the resorvoir into or out of the water? and shouldn't that create a pumping motion by itself?

The return from the dry cell should be pumped to above the reservoir level and allowed to 'waterfall' into the reservoir. I tried it both ways, but bubbling the return through the electrolyte caused back pressure issues. If you are using a pump with sufficient pressure, then you may be able to get away with bubbling the return through the electrolyte.

If you do do this, don't negate the need for a conventional bubbler!

A note concerning cooling: As touched upon at the top of this post, you do not want too much! For example, I have my cell mounted behind the bumper and radiator grill of my Ram truck. When the vehicle is stationary, it will get warm enough to eventually pull 30 amps, however, on the road (more specifically highway speeds) it will only reach about 28 amps due to the cooling. If you plan to do highway driving and don't want to use a PWM, do not use the pump if you already have good airflow or production will suffer.

Hope this helps, please feel free to ask away with any other questions.

Russ.

[VanHalen]

Hey thanks that clarified a lot. And I assume that the shower liner for the gasket holds up nicely?

[Painless]

Hey thanks that clarified a lot. And I assume that the shower liner for the gasket holds up nicely?

Yep, as long as you remember it's PVC and don't take the cell too far over 140F.

[Painless]

Well, I've decided to throw in the towel....


Don't panic! Not on my HHO system, but on my O2 sensor enhancer / voltage adder. It's clear that I'm going to have a hard time fooling my ECU with this sensors 2.5v bias so I've decided to go an alternate route. It doesn't seem to matter how much voltage I throw at the sensor, I just can't effect it.

RadGenH2O on youtube has almost the same truck as I do, both are 2006, both are 4.7L non-flex fuel, his is 2wd mine is 4wd but I doubt that makes any difference. Rad has gotten a 33% increase in MPG with 3.5 LPM of HHO and O2 sensor extenders. I've decided to go the same route.

I stopped in at NAPA on my way to work this morning (love that place, they stock a lot of stuff and the people there are knowledgable and helpfull and willing to spend time with you to get you what you need, even if they are only making a few dollars) and bought a pack of 18mm spark plug anti-foulers and a pot of thread anti-seize good to 1800F.

Shall be getting busy under my truck on Monday morning, hopefully I won't hit my head again like I did splicing in the O2 sensor wire, I still have a red knot on my forehead after almost a week!

[resago]

hehe, should've had a V8.:)

[Painless]

hehe, should've had a V8.:)

My truck does have a V8! :D

[Painless]

I'm all set to install my O2 sensor extenders on Monday, once I've finished my weekend shifts at work. I detest sitting here, doing nothing for the majority of the day (I work in IT support) when I could be working on my HHO setup!!!

After the O2 sensor my next dilemma is as follows:

I can get 2 LPM out of my generator when running at 30 amps, with the vehicle stationary in my driveway this is easy enough. However, when I'm on the road I can never get above about 20-25 amps. The reason for this is the excellent cooling airflow I get through the grill of my truck. Most of my driving is 55 mph highway.

I had some ideas for combating this:

1) Use a current sensing PWM

2) Bump up the electrolyte catalyst so the system can draw 30 amps at a lower temp.

3) Restrict the airflow around my generator.

My thoughts on these options:

1) I can't afford it, even 20 odd bucks for parts that I am competent enough to make into a circuit myself is too much at the moment.

2) This will be great until I stop or do drive through a town, then I have to worry about thermal runaway. Getting the concentration *just right* will be difficult.

3) This is probably the best option, but I will need to get it *just right* or have a way of controlling airflow. I want the flow there at lower speeds but to be partially blocked off at higher.

I have given some thought to a flap that would block some of the air flow over the electrolyser, which is on a sprung hinge. Stronger air pressure would push the flap down where as lower air pressure would allow the flap to come up, allowing airflow. This would take some tuning but just might work.

Cheap is king right now as my financial situation is real bad, the wife and I currently don't make enough money to cover our bills and pay the mortgage, luck and tax returns have kept us covered so far but this isn't going to last. This is one of the main reasons for researching HHO in the first place, her car (A 2003 Hyundai Elantra) is next.

[hg2]

Well, I've decided to throw in the towel....


Don't panic! Not on my HHO system, but on my O2 sensor enhancer / voltage adder. It's clear that I'm going to have a hard time fooling my ECU with this sensors 2.5v bias so I've decided to go an alternate route. It doesn't seem to matter how much voltage I throw at the sensor, I just can't effect it.

RadGenH2O on youtube has almost the same truck as I do, both are 2006, both are 4.7L non-flex fuel, his is 2wd mine is 4wd but I doubt that makes any difference. Rad has gotten a 33% increase in MPG with 3.5 LPM of HHO and O2 sensor extenders. I've decided to go the same route.

I stopped in at NAPA on my way to work this morning (love that place, they stock a lot of stuff and the people there are knowledgable and helpfull and willing to spend time with you to get you what you need, even if they are only making a few dollars) and bought a pack of 18mm spark plug anti-foulers and a pot of thread anti-seize good to 1800F.

Shall be getting busy under my truck on Monday morning, hopefully I won't hit my head again like I did splicing in the O2 sensor wire, I still have a red knot on my forehead after almost a week!

Make sure you use a 9/16" drill bit and not 1/2" when you enlarge the hole.Also you may find that dodge ecms don't care too much for o2 extenders and seem to help trigger cels more than help with mpg gains.Just talking from personal experience with my 04 dodge.

[Painless]

Make sure you use a 9/16" drill bit and not 1/2" when you enlarge the hole.Also you may find that dodge ecms don't care too much for o2 extenders and seem to help trigger cels more than help with mpg gains.Just talking from personal experience with my 04 dodge.

Thanks for the pointers, always appreciated.

I have noticed, from other peoples experiences around the net, that the extenders seem to work better with the 4.7 than the Hemi. I'm hoping this will hold true for me also.

[VanHalen]

O K after reading this I have created my dry cell. Here it is. I used square plates(from Lowes) that have lips on the end, perfect for spade connectors. I have run it once, it seals up nice. The problem is, only after about 10 min with very little production, the plates are making green crap and turning colors. Is this because of the crappy ss quality, or if I sand them down will they work better?

[BoyntonStu]

O K after reading this I have created my dry cell. Here it is.

Interesting holy design!

Plate material?

BoyntonStu

[VanHalen]

Thats the thing, I didn't say on the box at lowes. I think its low quality stainless though. It has started to make a green residue and turn black, so I'm going to sand them down and try. Don't think itll work, but Ill see. The design is convenient, but the quality is lacking I believe.

[magcshroom]

Hole in the center is WAY too big. Not much you can do now, but you will get a lot of current leakage from it. I would recommend a small hole drilled towards the bottom and 1 towards to top for gas and water flow respectively. I would also recommend you cut some of the excess off of the gaskets so you get more surface area. Otherwise, looks good, grats on your dry cell :).

[Painless]

I recognise those plates, I used to use them as end plates. They aren't stainless, I think they're either straight steel or aluminum.

[VanHalen]

Hole in the center is WAY too big. Not much you can do now, but you will get a lot of current leakage from it. I would recommend a small hole drilled towards the bottom and 1 towards to top for gas and water flow respectively. I would also recommend you cut some of the excess off of the gaskets so you get more surface area. Otherwise, looks good, grats on your dry cell :).

Yea I don't have a way to cut stainless(which these turned out not to be anyways), so we bought those with the punchout hole in the middle. This was all a little rushed, and am resizing my gasket cuts right now, as I have plenty of excess. I suppose I'm just going to get some of the wall plates, so there'll be two holes in them anyway. Thanks for the congrats :D. I did notice when I was running it though, the water would start to pump out the water input side(lower valve). If I was producing more HHO, would it just self correct itself?

[VanHalen]

Here's a picture of the end plate. Ran about ten minutes so I'm pretty sure its like Painless said, aluminum or not ss.

[magcshroom]

Yes, if you produce more hho it will flow up the tube but you will also lose your water circulation because the pressurised hho will be flowing up the tubes and the water can't flow down. If you have enough water in your resovoir, pressure can build and cause your unit to explode or hoses to come off. You need to have a top and bottom valve. Bottom for water circulation and top for hho out.

[VanHalen]

Yes, if you produce more hho it will flow up the tube but you will also lose your water circulation because the pressurised hho will be flowing up the tubes and the water can't flow down. If you have enough water in your resovoir, pressure can build and cause your unit to explode or hoses to come off. You need to have a top and bottom valve. Bottom for water circulation and top for hho out.

I do have a top and bottom valve. See thumbnail.

[VanHalen]

Hey BTW does anyone have an item number or something for the SS switch covers that work best? I went to Lowes with a magnet, and all of them reacted with the magnet.

[Painless]

You're in luck! I picked up a few extras today.

They are in a clear plastic wrap that says "Cooper Wiring Devices" on it, there is a sticker on the back of the plates that reads "304SS".

The barcode sticker says "93151" and the number under the barcode reads "0 32664 43710 6".

You'll find them in the electrical isle where they normally have a display with samples pinned up on the shelving.

Hope this helps.

[VanHalen]

Perfect! I now with the proper plates I can really kick this thing in to gear. Thanks a lot.

[H2OPWR]

Great thread. I have enjoyed reading every post. I still beleive that spending the extra mony for great quality stainless is a way to save money overall.

How many times have you changed your plates due to buildup?
How much are you spending on distilled water and KOH?
How often do you have to change your solution?

I bought 100 4.5" X 5" 316L stainless plates in Alaska where freight is often as much as the product itself for $4.00 each and that includes cutting and punching holes. Pictures and results to come soon.

JUST SOME THOUGHTS NOT PUTTING ANYONE OR THEIR IDEAS DOWN!

[VanHalen]

I agree, but I can't cut stainless and I don't want to order them. For my last generator I ordered 316, but the plates weren't as described and they sucked.

[Kobudoman]

Hey Van,
Those plates you were using are galvinized steel like all the standard gang boxes are made of, you realy don't want to use them. As for cutting the stainless, a dremel tool works great although it's a bit slow.

[redneckgearhead34]

I used a sawsall with metal cutting blades. You could also use a jigsaw with metal cutting blades.

[VanHalen]

I'm just going to get the wall plates like Painless uses. Should work with my current setup, all I have to do is cut out some new gaskets. Ill sand these and cleanse them though.

[SpecHunter]

I`m running Home Depot Stainless plates and they work great. 3 plate config drawing 9-11 amps , just got my ammeter and air/fuel gauge in this afternoon. Gonna install them tomorrow.