my cell don't work. why??

[the wind]

Hi guys, i've built my dry cell with SS 304 square plates 15,5x15,5 cm (6.5"x6.5")
the distance between the plates is 3 mm
i used 6 plates with this scheme + N N N N N -
inside i put water with my testing electrolyte (NaOH) about 1M.
the current is genereted by this PWM connected to the car battery.

http://www.greenfuelh2o.com/product_p/pwm50.htm

i scanned all the possible frequencies, from 244 to 3125 Hz, but was not able to find the resonance one, how can i do??
and the hho production was really limitate only at 100% of Amps i could see some little bubbles only from the charged plates, nothing from the neutral ones... WHY??
Am i wrong with something?? can someone help me??
Thanks

[BioFarmer93]

Hi guys, i've built my dry cell with SS 304 square plates 15,5x15,5 cm (6.5"x6.5")
the distance between the plates is 3 mm
i used 6 plates with this scheme + N N N N N -
inside i put water with my testing electrolyte (NaOH) about 1M.
the current is genereted by this PWM connected to the car battery.

http://www.greenfuelh2o.com/product_p/pwm50.htm

i scanned all the possible frequencies, from 244 to 3125 Hz, but was not able to find the resonance one, how can i do??
and the hho production was really limitate only at 100% of Amps i could see some little bubbles only from the charged plates, nothing from the neutral ones... WHY??
Am i wrong with something?? can someone help me??
Thanks

That I know of, no one here is doing anything with resonance, so no help there, sorry... But you give no helpful description of your reactor, so it would be very difficult to know if perhaps you made wrong connections etc.. Please post some photos that show enough detail to be helpful in evaluating possible problems. We can read that you used NaOh as an electrolyte, but "1M" does not mean anything to us without reference to what "M" is, or how much NaOh was in "M". Please describe clearly and in detail, and we will be glad to help.

[aceras624]

Hi guys, i've built my dry cell with SS 304 square plates 15,5x15,5 cm (6.5"x6.5")
the distance between the plates is 3 mm
i used 6 plates with this scheme + N N N N N -
inside i put water with my testing electrolyte (NaOH) about 1M.
the current is genereted by this PWM connected to the car battery.

http://www.greenfuelh2o.com/product_p/pwm50.htm

i scanned all the possible frequencies, from 244 to 3125 Hz, but was not able to find the resonance one, how can i do??
and the hho production was really limitate only at 100% of Amps i could see some little bubbles only from the charged plates, nothing from the neutral ones... WHY??
Am i wrong with something?? can someone help me??
Thanks

some questions:
1. you say "water". do you mean distilled water?
2. how much is "1M"
3. current is not "generated by PWM" but rather limited by it
4. thinner gaskets can reduce resistance giving the electricity less electrolyte to have to move through.
5. as for THAT PWM I havent used that particular one but it seems liek a fairly decent one. Are you sure you have it hooked up right? You should see some production at all frequencies
6. low production could be from a weak solution of electrolyte or wires too thin to transmit current, or lack of surface area for HHO production etc. does more NaOH yield higher results for you? are the plates cleaned before you installed them?
7. If this is a dry cell, how could you tell the production was only coming from the charged plates and NOT the neutrals? Are you sure youre not using a wet cell? Pics would help

answer these questions and provide some pics (the more the merrier)and im sure a number of intelligent people on here will be able to help you :) Best wishes-Ace-

[aceras624]

That I know of, no one here is doing anything with resonance, so no help there, sorry... But you give no helpful description of your reactor, so it would be very difficult to know if perhaps you made wrong connections etc.. Please post some photos that show enough detail to be helpful in evaluating possible problems. We can read that you used NaOh as an electrolyte, but "1M" does not mean anything to us without reference to what "M" is, or how much NaOh was in "M". Please describe clearly and in detail, and we will be glad to help.

thats funny, Bio you and I were reading that at the same time like "mmmmkay what the hell kind of measurement is an "M"?!?!? :)

[the wind]

Ok, thanks for the answers, i'll try to explain better, so
here's the cell

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/6228/mg0542.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/207/mg0542.jpg/)
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/1683/mg0543r.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/708/mg0543r.jpg/)
http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/5037/mg0544.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/856/mg0544.jpg/)
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/333/mg0547m.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/716/mg0547m.jpg/)

the plates connected to the pwm are the first and the last

concerning the concentration of NaOH, M is for "molar concentration" or molarity, the standard unit for the concentration of anything; it's (1 mol of solute)/(1 liter of solution)
sorry i'm a chemist....
in my case it was about 1M, so, since the molar weight of NaOH is 40,00 grams/mol, there were about 40,00 grams in 1 liter
the water i used is not distilled water, but i think this could not affect the HHO production.

i know that pwm is not a current generator, but it transorm the continous current generated by the battery, into alternated current at the selected frequency, and of sure it limitates the amount of Amps given to the cell.

the gas production was the same at all frequencies, and the gas was produced just on the first and the last plate and only in the hole area, in the center-lower part of the plate. (im' able to see into the cell from the transparent enclosure and from the lover holes)

it is right to have the same production at all frequencies??

thanks

[hhoconnection]

Looks to me like the spacing on your plates is pretty wide. Most of us use 1/16", what are yours spaced at? Also how many volts are you getting at the cell? If you are seeing bubbles from the end plates but not on the neutrals it's because you aren't getting enough volts to the cell to equal over 1.8v plate gap. Which brings me to my next question, what is your voltage between any two plates that are next to each other?

[the wind]

the cell is powered with the 12V of the car battery.
the distance between the plates is 3mm.
the potential difference between each 2 contigous plates is about 2V
:)

[hhoconnection]

If you are measuring 12v between neg and pos plates and getting a consistent 2v/plate gap, then I am stumped. Did you check the voltage at the cell or at the battery because most PWM's will drop the voltage some. About the only other thing I can think of is what amp rating is the charger that is feeding the battery? Also, have you tried running the cell without the PWM yet and if so what are the results?

[BioFarmer93]

Ok, thanks for the answers, i'll try to explain better, so
here's the cell

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/6228/mg0542.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/207/mg0542.jpg/)
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/1683/mg0543r.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/708/mg0543r.jpg/)
http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/5037/mg0544.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/856/mg0544.jpg/)
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/333/mg0547m.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/716/mg0547m.jpg/)

the plates connected to the pwm are the first and the last

concerning the concentration of NaOH, M is for "molar concentration" or molarity, the standard unit for the concentration of anything; it's (1 mol of solute)/(1 liter of solution)
sorry i'm a chemist....
in my case it was about 1M, so, since the molar weight of NaOH is 40,00 grams/mol, there were about 40,00 grams in 1 liter
the water i used is not distilled water, but i think this could not affect the HHO production.

i know that pwm is not a current generator, but it transorm the continous current generated by the battery, into alternated current at the selected frequency, and of sure it limitates the amount of Amps given to the cell.

the gas production was the same at all frequencies, and the gas was produced just on the first and the last plate and only in the hole area, in the center-lower part of the plate. (im' able to see into the cell from the transparent enclosure and from the lover holes)

it is right to have the same production at all frequencies??

thanks

TW,
If you think in moles, then 4-5 moles of NaOh to 1ltr of water is the typical electrolyte strength and will give much better production.

From the photo I can see that the vent holes all line up perfectly and that they're a bit large, and that there are too many of them. These conditions set the stage for a great deal of current leakage, which is one of the problems with this design.

Next you say:

i know that pwm is not a current generator, but it transorm the continous current generated by the battery, into alternated current at the selected frequency, and of sure it limitates the amount of Amps given to the cell.
Do you mean alternating current (AC) like from the national power grid? Or do you mean pulsed DC (direct current) at varying frequencies? If it is true alternating current then I believe we may have found the problem...

[the wind]

so, i have to use thinner gaskets (about 1mm it's ok??)
4 or 5 x concentrated electrolyte (i will use KOH for better conductivity)

the volts checked on the charged plates (after the pwm) were about 13...
the cell powered just from the battery without pwm produced a little bit more quantity of gas.

but, i can't find out what kind of wave the pwm creates: it turns continous current in to alternated current (so from +12 to 0 to -12 to 0 and so on at the desired frequency) or just from 0 to +12 to 0 at one plate and the opposite at the other??
what wave shape it use? sinusoid? square? deltoid??

thanks!

[aceras624]

what makes you think its making alternating current and not just pulsing?

[the wind]

so, why we use pulsed current and not continous curren? where is the advantage??

instead alternated current at high frequencies is useful for electrodes, in that way they don't oxidize. This tipe of current is used in conductivity measure in lab for that reason; pulsing the current from + to - allow the electrode to remain untouched, it is reduced and ozidized many times for second so the result is that it's not damaged.

at continous potential on the other hand, the electrode could be damaged taking always the same part in the reaction.

[BioFarmer93]

so, why we use pulsed current and not continous curren? where is the advantage??

instead alternated current at high frequencies is useful for electrodes, in that way they don't oxidize. This tipe of current is used in conductivity measure in lab for that reason; pulsing the current from + to - allow the electrode to remain untouched, it is reduced and ozidized many times for second so the result is that it's not damaged.

at continous potential on the other hand, the electrode could be damaged taking always the same part in the reaction.

You will continue to have low production if you insist on using AC current, no frequency variation will change that. If you wish to have good production then pulse DC current, or use non-pulsed DC current, but use DC- this is a basic rule of electrolysis. (You are a chemist? You should know that.) Use 316L stainless steel for your electrodes and keep the current density below .50A per square inch, and erosion or oxidation of your electrodes will not be a problem for many years. If it is financially feasible to use nickel for your electrodes then do so, and erosion or oxidation of your electrodes will not be a problem for many dozens years.

[aceras624]

id still like to know what makes you think youre using AC instead of DC? A PWM doesnt just make DC into AC. It simply pulses DC. So how have you managed to use AC current?

[the wind]

ok, I have not explained well:
i'm using a pwm, so dc pulsed.

but, i don't understand why we use pulsed DC instead of continous DC??
what are the benefits??

i know that DC is needed for electrolysis.
the consideration about AC is that when in laboratory, we have to measure the conductivity, we use platinum electrodes, and high frequency current, this because we only want to measure the mobility of the ions, oxidation or reduction of any species are not allowed at all to preserve the electrode and the significance measurement.
when we make an amperometric measurement, after the measuremente at the right voltage (to have the analyte redox reaction) , we pulse the potential at the higher and lower values until the electrode reduces or oxidize, to clean it an reactivate his surface.

so, a similar can be useful for our electrodes or not?

[the wind]

can someone tell me what's about the wet tubular cell and a kind of resonance that makes the electrolysis more efficient??

such like this

http://www.linux-host.org/energy/buerger1.htm

or the stanley meyer project

[BioFarmer93]

I don't understand why we use pulsed DC instead of continous DC?? What are the benefits??
By being able to control the duty cycle, it becomes possible to keep the reactor from overheating, it also serves as a mechanism to control gas production for fine tuning output to rpm and load.


We pulse the potential at the higher and lower values until the electrode reduces or oxidizes, to clean it an reactivate its surface. So, can a similar action be useful for our electrodes or not?
No, our electrodes are much heavier than what you are using in the lab, are made of 316L stainless steel, and would leach hexavalent chromium into the electrolyte if driven that hard.


Can someone tell me about the wet tubular cell and a kind of resonance that makes the electrolysis more efficient??
Like this... http://www.linux-host.org/energy/buerger1.htm Supposedly some experimenters have been able to increase production by 400 - 600% by causing their reactors to resonate by virtue of its design and current frequency. The link you provided above advises the reader in two different places that the information contained therein may well be fraudulent.

[the wind]

ok, really thanks for your answers!!:)

[aceras624]

but was not able to find the resonance one, how can i do??Herve Leger Outlet (http://www.usherveleger.com)
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and the hho production was really limitate only at 100% of Amps i could see some little bubbles only from the charged plates, nothing from the neutral ones... WHY??
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
what the hell are all these links in your posts?!?!?!

[Darrell]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
what the hell are all these links in your posts?!?!?!

Maybe thats why his cell don't work.....:rolleyes:

[the wind]

:confused::confused::confused:

[BioFarmer93]

Wow, the wind got hacked! Next thing you know, they'll be hacking the rain!!:eek::eek:

[myoldyourgold]

Just another spammer. You would think that if no one ever clicked on the links they would learn and stay away. But no someone is going to click on them and so they keep coming back. Such is life.

[aceras624]

and we cant find him and murder him why?!?!?

[TwinTurbo]

and we cant find him and murder him why?!?!?

Because........

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/548461_369491319756023_367835693254919_935667_2425 2563_n.jpg

Pretty sure the world as we know it would come to a screeching halt! :D