2012 Dodge 6.7 Diesel fun issues

[timthefinn]

I assisted a friend in building and installing an HHO system (comprised of -NNN+NNN- plate system) with a PWM control that has over voltage protection and won't turn on until it sees 13.8VDC. This was installed on a 2012 Dodge 6.7 Diesel. Our problem is that we can't keep the PWM running, but doesn't blow fuses just errors out, and sometimes it just won't shut off when vehicle shuts off. Is there a secondary side of the charging system that raises the voltage past 14.4VDC? Or, do you know where I can find a voltage source in this vehicle that is constantly around 13.8-14.4VDC and when the vehicle shuts off it drops below 13.8VDC?

Thanks in advance - Tim

[myoldyourgold]

I assisted a friend in building and installing an HHO system (comprised of -NNN+NNN- plate system) with a PWM control that has over voltage protection and won't turn on until it sees 13.8VDC. This was installed on a 2012 Dodge 6.7 Diesel. Our problem is that we can't keep the PWM running, but doesn't blow fuses just errors out, and sometimes it just won't shut off when vehicle shuts off. Is there a secondary side of the charging system that raises the voltage past 14.4VDC? Or, do you know where I can find a voltage source in this vehicle that is constantly around 13.8-14.4VDC and when the vehicle shuts off it drops below 13.8VDC?


Tim are you sure the trigger is set to 13.8V? Is it adjustable? If the trigger voltage is not adjustable I would return the PWM. Because of a lot of variables and where some batteries hold up to 12.8 volts the trigger needs to be set at a point that is enough above the battery max but not so high that when everything is on the voltage drop prevents it from coming on. Why it is not turning off sounds like a real problem or the trigger is to low. I suspect a problem with the PWM and you might be better off to return it. This is of course an educated guess not being there to test everything.

Your 4 cell reactor is a real hot box/inefficient configured like that, and just controlling the amps will not make it more efficient, but will just mask the problem by keeping the heat down. You really need to lower the voltage by adding TWO more plates in each stack. This could be contribution to your PWM problem too. Unless you are controlling the amount of fuel and when it is injected you will not need a whole lot of HHO.

[timthefinn]

The trigger is set to 13.8 and is fixed. This same PWM was tested on my vehicle and we had no problems. I will be contacting the manufacturer of the PWM as well so I can get ideas on that side as well. I still think it is something in this vehicles electrical system, but that is only a thought.

The cell is configured properly. This PWM has current limiting so we are able to up the catalyst, KOH, and lower the current. This gives us roughly .75 to 1 liter per minute gas output on a bench test.

Would there be a reason for this vehicle to keep a higher voltage while running and/or just after shutting the vehicle off? It just seems like we are getting voltages that are too high for our PWM to function with.

[myoldyourgold]

The trigger is set to 13.8 and is fixed. This same PWM was tested on my vehicle and we had no problems. I will be contacting the manufacturer of the PWM as well so I can get ideas on that side as well. I still think it is something in this vehicles electrical system, but that is only a thought.

The cell is configured properly. This PWM has current limiting so we are able to up the catalyst, KOH, and lower the current. This gives us roughly .75 to 1 liter per minute gas output on a bench test.

Would there be a reason for this vehicle to keep a higher voltage while running and/or just after shutting the vehicle off? It just seems like we are getting voltages that are too high for our PWM to function with.

I will leave the reactor out of this discussion other than to say 3.2 volts per cell is in no way efficient use of the voltage. Put that aside. There is no way that that vehicle can be producing 14 volts just sitting there. Does the 2012 have two batteries? Measure the voltage at the PWM. What is it when the engine is stopped?

[timthefinn]

There are two batteries. The voltage at the PWM when vehicle is running is 14.2VDC and when not running it takes about 1 minute to drop from that voltage to 12.8VDC.

[myoldyourgold]

OK that is interesting. I need to think about that a little because have not seen that before. Of course I have not sean everything thank goodness. LOL So there is some capacitance holding a charge that takes the reactor about 1 minute to drain or? I am not sure how that vehicle separates the to two batteries and if that could have something to do with it. I will check with a couple others that have the same vehicle but not the same year and see if they have a similar problem or know of one.

I would be interested in the gain you might see with your set up to add to my data base of the same vehicle to compare it with other setups. If you are willing could you post that after you get things dialed in. Thanks

[timthefinn]

I was going to post our findings of this problem as well. This may be a few days or even a week to solve. We have another PWM on order and I have talked with a long distance friend that has access to schematics for this vehicle, so he will be mailing me copies of these as well. Trying to study this in multiple directions.

The voltage separation between the plates is different than that original figure of 3.2V as suggested earlier, it is actually closer to 2.6-2.8V. You just need to look at the system as two cells in one with a common positive plate. If you have a 12VDC bench top power supply that can handle 12A then give it a try, just be carefull with the catalyst mixture - start low with this configuration until you receive close to .5 ltr per minute then you know it will produce a bit more with 14VDC.

Tim

[myoldyourgold]

Here is a test for you to do. While the tuck is running and the reactor is on turn on the headlights high beams and raido and then tun off the truck. Lights should still be on and see if the reactor turns off instantly. What might be happening is the that battery is charging to 14 volts. I have read that this is possible but not likely. If it does turn off right away then it is possible the battery is charging that much. It is a slim chance but the lights and the radio might be enough drain that it turns off instantly.

[timthefinn]

The reason we are running that configuration is the PWM has current limiting so we can increase our catalyst enough to have freeze protection to -20F, and we found that it doesn't matter whether or not we use 3 or 5 neutrals per side. The configuration is -NNN+NNN- with holes in the + plate and works quite well at 12A. Also, we do have a good flash back arrestor and are using a 1.5gal reservoir - would like to use a larger one but not enough room under the hood.
Tested the passenger side battery to have same voltage output as the driver's side battery during run time. We also tested the turn off problem by having everything running at shutoff and left on, then got out of the truck so the seat would home itself - still same problem with running for a minute - weird!!

We did the research and found that by tweaking any of the sensors or ECU we may would void the warranty, and it may be against US DOT regulations.

Also, we helped another guy with a 2010 Ford F350 Power Stroke. He had no problems with his so that was why we felt confident in helping the Dodge friend. The power stroke gets, on average, 15% better fuel mileage.

[myoldyourgold]

We did the research and found that by tweaking any of the sensors or ECU we may would void the warranty, and it may be against US DOT regulations.

If you are worried about violating DOT or EPA you are all ready by installing any thing that effects combustion, intake and exhaust that has not been approved. There is a $2500 fine even if it is helpful. Stupid I know but that is how it is. Any changes to the intake, exhaust, fuel system etc is a violation if not done with unapproved or OEM parts. Because there are thousands of violators looking for better milage or the opposite wanting more HP it is hard to enforce. Who knows one day they might be so broke that this could be a good source of income. Warranty issues are a different problem but I think you can win them in court unless you really are the cause of the problem. Either way you have to be prepared to stand up for your rights to get better mileage and cleaner exhaust. If warranty issues are bothering you, you better have a very good filter/ bubbler especially if you are running strong electrolyte. That when not done right will do a number on your turbo and any other aluminum it comes in contact with. I know you know this but I am just pointing out this to show you that you might have already voided the warranty since that sounds like an issue for you. They look for any excuse they can and that is a legit one. It has been proven that more neutrals make less moisture (not steam) thus carry less electrolyte out of the system that is why it is better to go that route. In the end it is always your choice which is how it should be.

Your problem with the PWM staying on and gas production continuing after the engine is shut off is a real mystery. Some gas continues to be made after shut down with no external voltage but very little. Now if there is 14 volts there then it will be full bore for the minute. This could cause a problem on startup in just the right condition but I doubt 1 minute would cause that problem. Have you checked with a volt meter at the battery terminals to see if there is 14 volts there for a minute after you turn the engine off? If this is going to be a problem on all of this model we need to solve it. I will do some research and if I discover anything I will get back to you.

[aceras624]

first adding extra nuetral plates is a good idea. Its just a more efficient way to produce HHO. Less heat mean less current wasted means less altenator usage means more MPG.

Second why dont you just put a relay in on a switched source. Ther are plenty of them and relays are super easy to work with!!!

Third the reason your PWM is staying on is either because its limiter is set lower than 13.8 or because the battery is capable of holding that high enough voltage for about a min. New batteries are quite good and capable of good capacidence<---lets pretend thats a real word;)

so just install a relay already! truck turns on, so does HHO, truck turns off, so does HHO. problem solved :)

[BioFarmer93]

first adding extra nuetral plates is a good idea. Its just a more efficient way to produce HHO. Less heat mean less current wasted means less altenator usage means more MPG.

Second why dont you just put a relay in on a switched source. Ther are plenty of them and relays are super easy to work with!!!

Third the reason your PWM is staying on is either because its limiter is set lower than 13.8 or because the battery is capable of holding that high enough voltage for about a min. New batteries are quite good and capable of good capacidence<---lets pretend thats a real word;)

so just install a relay already! truck turns on, so does HHO, truck turns off, so does HHO. problem solved :)

Tim,
I've got to go with Ace on the relay, Myold on the warranty and Koya about the properly built reactor. You're getting good advice here brother, and you need to heed. A PWM is an unnecessary expense looking for a home, send it back for a refund and use the cash to buy the rest of the plates to complete the reactor and there will be no need for a PWM.
I'm lucky, I have a 1989 7.3 idi and don't have to deal with electrickery, but a 2012 Cummins is already behind the electronics 8-ball, and having to deal with-
"Chrysler is having repair problems with its 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012 Dodge RAM trucks equipped with the 6.7 Liter Cummins turbo diesel engine. Typically, the check engine light comes on causing the owner to take it in to their dealer for warranty repairs. The dealers often find problems with the engine computer controls, the emissions system, the turbo, and the transmissions.
Dodge has issued technical service bulletins on these models dealing with engine control software issues and excessive turbocharger soot accumulation resulting in emissions problems."
So since she's going to be a warranty queen anyway, might as well go ahead and get a programmable controller and take charge of the situation from the get-go and just skip the dealer BS. I realize my approach sounds pretty scary and radical to some, but once the engine management system is under owner control, and someone realizes that their reactor is yet unfinished and needs to BE finished, emissions and mileage won't be problems. If you decide to continue running the inefficient poor performing steam machine, please let me know and I'll give you a BOOB (Brotherhood Of Oil Burners) price on a two stage rechargeable moisture eliminator to ease worries about caustics in the intake system. Don't get mad- get busy reading, because based on a couple of your responses you haven't finished your homework yet..;)

[iger13]

DO NOT INDUCE the hho at the turbo end. Induce it at the intak end after the cooler right at the bend of the intake elbow. I know this because of 10K miles on mine of testing.

Can you give a bit more explanation?

[myoldyourgold]

Ben what is your turbo pressure? What ever it is your HHO has to be something more to inject after the turbo. There is no question this works with parahydrogen but will be very dangerous or impossible with ortho rich hydrogen. There are a number of people/companies that are doing this but I have not seen one of them that is getting more than 2 to 4 miles increase if you can even believe them. I have seen much more than that in my Mercedes and all pre turbo injected.

[myoldyourgold]

Thank you Sir, I will be very interested in your finding. The stock boost pressure is around 26 to 28 psi in the commins. Tuners usually turn it up to as high as 35 psi some times higher. I am not sure what your engine has.

[myoldyourgold]

I switched the induction location several inches in front of the turbo. I did not like the way the truck performed. The initial sign of accel and behavior not to mention the mpg drop I was not happy with. hence it is being induced at the post turbo intake elbow.
The after market intake from AFE came with holes already to accommodate installation of water injection and HHO, so I elected to use them. That seems to yield better performance and mpg gain in my case.

Can you give us details of your system? I would like to know how you prevent the 20-30 pounds of pressure from going back into your HHO system. How long does it take for your system to build that much pressure? Have you ever put a pressure gauge on your reservoir? Maybe I am missing something here. But I am glad it is working as good as it is. At 3 LPM it will take quite a while to build 30 lbs. If I remember you use tie straps to hold your HHO lines on and they are able to keep things from leaking at that pressure is really good. I am still a little lost.

[Weapon_R]

I was wondering how long someone will ask that question. My "waterless" bubbler does build pressure to overcome the boost pressure. At first when I did not have the check valve anytime I get on the throttle the end cap for the bubble is pushed out. Now that the bubbler is a sealed unit and don't really get on throttle much the pressure from the bubbler is greater enough to overcome the boost press. I think I ran into something I can't explain, the bubbler is multiple chamber design. I've stopped the patent pending on it so I can share the design, but I am hesitant because it is that functional. i have 10k on my 2012 and still not seen any sign of moisture coming from the bubbler to the intake or the tube leading to it.
I thought of putting a gauge but I have so much on my plate that doing the research will be time consuming.

Yes, with thermol mulnipulation and spot ties the tubing does stay on the fittings 9around 50+ psi (tested it), to removed the tubing for maintenance I have to use a heat gun to soften the tube so I can remove them.

Impressive! Koya are you using a flashback arrestor?

[myoldyourgold]

Koya, what type of check valve are you using that prevents the pressure from the turbo going into your waterless bubbler? When you turn off the engine what is preventing the HHO form bleeding down/emptying the no water bubbler and filling the intake? In my system I run a pressure system but under 10 LBS because I turn off at idle and do not want to have any lag at start up so the system stays charged the whole time even when turned off. I know how I do it but was interested how you do it or do you just let it go into the intake and not worry about it. It might not make any difference in your case with such a little HHO but the volume of the bubbler will at least empty down to atmosphere pressure. In mine I inject a lot more HHO and that amount in the intake might cause a problem at start up. If I pressurize mine that much it most likely will explode.

[dixiepc]

Alright Ben, since you are ready to share your bubbler design with us, we are ready for you to share your bubbler design with us.

Shoot!