Zero gain so far

[geneapodaca]

OK, I'm stumped and feeling dejected.
I installed two dry cells in an older Jeep that is carbureted and has no sensors at all. The HHO feeds into the air cleaner and is aimed directly down the throat of the primary of a 4 barrel carburetor.
Collectively, the cells draw a little under 50 amps. They produce plenty of gas because I was able to lean the idle air mix almost in half. The engine almost won't idle without the HHO turned on. The engine, by the way, is a 304ci small block v-8 with an rv cam.
However, the overall MPG net is zero gain. Maybe even lower. I'm confident the timing is still ok based on how the engine starts and runs, but it isn't retarded at all. I'm shy about retarding the timing because I like being able to turn the HHO off if necessary and being able to drive.
The engine is a fresh rebuild and runs well, and I established a solid baseline before installing the HHO, so there's a good starting point.
Each cell has a PWM, but neither is limiting current. Each cell limits itself. They run fairly cool, the gas coming out of the cells is not quite hot but the tank feeding them stays cool after the output gas bubbles through it. The cells themselves are merely warm.
So, to recap. I have two dry cells producing a fair amount of gas, but no gain in economy. Not to mention large financial investment and thousands of miles of experimentation and gasoline.

[myoldyourgold]

How much gas exaclty are you making. It is either to much or to little if you are not retarding the timing it will need to be just right or there will be no gain or possibly some loss. Measure your out put and get back to us.

[Stevo]

The engine is a fresh rebuild and runs well, and I established a solid baseline before installing the HHO, so there's a good starting point.

Possibly, but you haven't mentioned your driving habits. Best way to do this is first to get a baseline based off of conservative driving only. Next, get your MPG average based on conservative driving plus your system installed.

You are probably getting ~3LPM from your unit so volume wise you are right where you should be. If you are hauling ass everywhere you go, expect to see no gains or possibly even a loss.

No way is 3LPM enough volume for a motor under high load. I also wonder about your alternator. What is your alternator rated at? What kind of battery are you using? Specs?

[geneapodaca]

Ok, that really sucked. I added a second tank to catch electrolyte overflow and spillage since my jeep gets offroad. I was getting electrolyte in the engine.

The second tank leaks like a sieve, so it couldn't deliver pressure to check gas delivery. The gas was getting to the engine anyway since the unit had a little suction it.

Sooo, after all is said and done, the cells will empty a quart jar of water in 15-17 seconds. And, in retrospect, I'd rather adjust the engine to accommodate the HHO than restrict the output of the cells. Providing that net gains are better that way. I can carry a wrench to adjust the timing to get home if I run into problems with the HHO.

So, where should I go from here?

[geneapodaca]

Possibly, but you haven't mentioned your driving habits. Best way to do this is first to get a baseline based off of conservative driving only. Next, get your MPG average based on conservative driving plus your system installed.

You are probably getting ~3LPM from your unit so volume wise you are right where you should be. If you are hauling ass everywhere you go, expect to see no gains or possibly even a loss.

No way is 3LPM enough volume for a motor under high load. I also wonder about your alternator. What is your alternator rated at? What kind of battery are you using? Specs?

My driving habits are conservative. My baseline and current driving are unchanged. I accelerate slowly, and chose my shifting to allow max gas mileage. The alternator is rated at 140A and was tested to deliver just over 80a at idle. Plenty of juice. The battery is a fresh AGM deep cycle that delivers 80cca. I have a winch too so electrical delivery is a major consideration.

[Stevo]

Ok, that really sucked. I added a second tank to catch electrolyte overflow and spillage since my jeep gets offroad. I was getting electrolyte in the engine.

The second tank leaks like a sieve, so it couldn't deliver pressure to check gas delivery. The gas was getting to the engine anyway since the unit had a little suction it.

Sooo, after all is said and done, the cells will empty a quart jar of water in 15-17 seconds. And, in retrospect, I'd rather adjust the engine to accommodate the HHO than restrict the output of the cells. Providing that net gains are better that way. I can carry a wrench to adjust the timing to get home if I run into problems with the HHO.

So, where should I go from here?

Good deal on the battery and alt setup. Towards the tank leaking; you said it leaks like a sieve.. hydrogen is the smallest element on the periodic table and capable of leaking from very small cracks. Are you using a venturi port on the carb?

Maybe 50A is too much current draw. Try less? Maybe 25A.

My motor is 300HP turbo 2.0L and I only draw 10A on my system and can see gains even with the computer fighting me. Can't imagine your motor is drawing in that much more air.

[myoldyourgold]

If he is pushing 3 lpm into that engine and not retarding it the burn is most likely happening not at the most advantages crank angle. Could even be working against him to some degree. Now if there is a lot less gas making it into the combustion chamber because of the leaks then 50 amps is close to 3 HP of draw on the engine and I would then suspect a loosing battle going on there. Your suggestion to drop down to 25 amps and plug the leaks are right on the money and that is where he should start. Knowing how much gas is really making it to the intake is important to really make a good decision.

[geneapodaca]

Yes there was a leak. But, like I said, the gas made it into the engine because of a mild vacuum applied to the cells. I was temporarily unable to pressurize the hoses to check total HHO production. I'll either or replace the tank as required.

Also, I'd rather compensate the engine than reduce gas if this can net more mileage.

I'd appreciate advice either way, but considering the most advantageous approach for a primitive engine.

[geneapodaca]

At 50A the system is emptying the water from a quart jar in 15-17 seconds.

Now, would it be advantageous to retard timing or reduce gas production?

[aceras624]

why do you keep saying its emptying the quart of electrolyte??? where is it going?

[dswareagle]

At 50A the system is emptying the water from a quart jar in 15-17 seconds.

Now, would it be advantageous to retard timing or reduce gas production?

i dont understand unless you have found a way to produce 1000LPM at 50A where the hell is your electrolyte going? i mean arent you bringing your bubbles back to the reservoir and then to the engine???

[Stevo]

It's being sucked into the motor which would certainly explain his loss in MPG. I would have figured that would be troubleshooting step #1: engine sucking electrolyte down like Gatorade? Check.

[myoldyourgold]

At 50 amps if the reactor is not ported propperly the reactor will work like a big pump. In some of my high voltage (over 3 volts per cell) tests I have seen a large reactor pump all the electrolyte out in seconds because it was not made for that volume. Solve this problem with more back pressure from the bubbler or less pressure from the reservoir but if it is extreme like 50 amps the only solution might be to just lower the amp to a lot less.

Can we have a detailed description of this reactor? Size, number, and configuration of plates and how the ports are set up. Pictures would help too. Maybe I missed this info.

[geneapodaca]

when I'm typing my explanations, the words are making perfect sense to me, but judging by the feedback, I'm writing gibberish. Please allow me to try again.

Please be patient as this may be long.

2 dry cells. 4"x4" 21 plates and 6"x6" 21 plates from ebay. Nice construction, much better than I can do. The plates are 316 stainless.

They are currently running off of a single PWM rated at 60a i think.
Both cells combined were drawing just shy of 50a.
They are producing just less than 4 quarts (I don't have a liter-sized container) per minute or one quart of HHO every 15-17 seconds.

Please disregard the leak and electrolyte sucking into the engine. I fixed those issues and have positive flow of HHO to the intake.

This morning, taking your advice, I reduced the current to 25a. When I started the engine, it idled quite rough. The engine fuel/air idle screws required adjusting. They're now closed actually. As far as I can tell, the engine is idling on HHO alone. The smell or lack of smell at the exhaust seems to confirm this. There is an odor at the tail pipe but not one I would associate with engine exhaust.

The idle screw setting is leaner than when the cells were drawing more current. Maybe the reduced load on the alternator made the difference? Less gas so the burn is a little slower? Either way, the idle air mix went from quite lean to no gas at all and the engine is running smoothly.

Your advice so far seems to be making a big difference.

[myoldyourgold]

That sounds a lot better. The smaller reactor is limited to about 24 amps max and the larger one 37. If both are each getting 25 amps max then you are OK at least in regards to over amping the reactors. Let us know how it does for mileage now. Have you done anything with the timing? You might not need to at 25 amps but it should help to retard it just a bit so the burn comes at a better crank angle.

If both are hooked up to the pwm in parallel then the amps are split between the two.

[geneapodaca]

Status update:

Following the advice on this thread, I reduced the PWM current to 25a. Once again, the net result was zero MPG difference. Driving habits and routes were the same with warmer weather being the only notable difference.

I notice a few posts on this thread mentioning 3 liters/minute. For a 5 liter engine, is 3 liters/minute a desirable target figure? Instead of playing with current, would it be better to target a specific amount of HHO production?

My goal is to see a definite, if even modest MPG gain from the HHO. Once I have a new baseline established, I'll feel comfortable playing with HHO production and modifying engine tune to compensate until I can maximize overall gains knowing I can return to the new baseline and try again. Right now, I'm completely in the dark and don't know whether to increase or decrease HHO, and am very reluctant to change timing until I know which way to go.

For the record, I have conformed a positive flow of a highly flammable gas to the engine from the HHO reactors.

[aceras624]

anyone having concerns with the fact that the cells are made with 316 stainless?!?!?

also as for leaks, have you sprayed a mildy soapy solution on ALL possible places for gas to escape?

Id say go lower because youll see gains for sure. try starting low like 5 amps. burn through a tank. calculate the results. Then continue increasing the amps incrementally.

also, have you confirmed the QUALITY of your gas. Sure it burns but does it have any moisture in it? are you using any drying tubes or anything to have ONLY HHO get into the engine?

[BioFarmer93]

anyone having concerns with the fact that the cells are made with 316 stainless?!?!?

Ace, the 316 just has .05 of 1% more carbon than the 316L, this is not supposed to present any problem until about 800°F and above (welding) so should still perform adequately from a safety standpoint regarding heating and Cr6. Good eye though, I blew right past it and didn't even notice the lack of the "L".

Gene, I'm going to go with Carter on this- if everything else checks out OK, I say throw a light on it and retard it 2° with your reactors dialed in to make between 2 and 2-1/2 LPM. It's difficult to accept that you haven't seen ANY change in mileage with as much HHO as you were throwing at it- I know you don't want to mess with the timing, and the RV cam gives me a clue why. I think the improved flame propagation speed is working against you at your current timing. Something else- I know it's a fresh rebuild but according to your statements about thousands of miles of testing and sucking a bunch of electrolyte, have you thought about doing a compression test just for S&G's?
If you ever heard it knock real bad during those hijinks it's possible you have some bent rods.

[geneapodaca]

Thanks for the advice. I'll try reducing the HHO to 2LPM for the next approach. If I don't see any gains, I'll try retarding timing.

I'm testing at 100 mile increments as a rule of thumb. I'm using the vehicle as a commuter while trying to sort the HHO thing out. 100 miles takes me almost a week so going further would take forever. My commute is 11 miles one way, all on surface streets. This allows me to really reduce the variables. I even buy gas from the same station to stay consistent there as well.

I regret having mentioned the engine had sucked electrolyte in. That was a one-time thing as I learned the added considerations required for a 4x4. I immediately turned the HHO off and disconnected the plumbing until I had the matter resolved. The engine is fine.

[aceras624]

did you take apart you intake manifold or other possibly aluminum part to check for corrosion?