Dry Cell getting very low production (Installed on 97 Grand Cherokee) New Member

[-AK87-]

Hello everyone! I have been an active reader on this forum, but until today have not yet posted. So here we go:

I have built a 31 plate dry cell unit to produce hydrogen in a 97 Jeep grand Cherokee Limited (5.2l v8) The cell itself measured 6x6x4.25 inches and the 314 stainless steel plates are 5.5" wide (.036" thick). Each plate has three equally spaced half inch holes drilled through them for circulation (vertically as in a top hole, middle hole and bottom hole looking at the face of the plate). I used standard 1/16" thick O rings that measure 5.25" wide to just fit inside the area of my plates. The endcaps/plastic plates are .75" pvc. The cell has two bottom water/electrolyte solution inlets (one on each side) and two upper gas outlets (one on each side). The tank for the electrolyte solution is a standard one that can be found in many hho builds and serves as both a resivor for water and bubbler for hho gases. From the main tank, gases flow into a small pvc secondary bubbler before being routed to the engine (into intake right before manifold). For my electrolyte solution, I currently use KOH mixed as a 10% solution with distilled water (about 12 tbsp of KOH to a gallon of water).

Electronically, I routed wiring directly from the battery (in parallel with main connection) to a relay, so the ignition of the Jeep turns on the generator, a 30 amp in line fuse, an ammeter, a voltmeter, a toggle switch, and a 30 amp generic (ogo) pwm. (Not exactly in that order) It then runs to the generator where I then get 1.6 to 1.85 volts in between plate gaps. (Again, 31 plate 5 neutral. So 3 positive hookups, 3 negative hookups and 5 sets of 5 neutral plates) When the cell warms up, I can consistently run the generator around 16-18 amps which is with the pwm maxed out. For whatever reason, I could never get more amperage through the generator, which kind of makes the pwm useless since its supposed to be to put more current through the generator until it gets warmed up, but yet I can only get like 14 amps when I tun it on cold (pwm maxed).

Anyway, that is my setup, but here is my problem: With all of this, I can only get about half of a liter per minute of gas production. I feel as though I've seen generators half the size of mine making 2lpm so I'm stumped. :confused: Previously, this generator was a 19 plate cell with 1/8" O rings that I upgraded to what I have described. Although the production increased, it is still far from great... I have spent tons of time on this and have read almost everything I could find, attempting to build it the right way. I have tried more concentrated electrolyte solutions, and hooking the generator straight up to a 12v battery with no other components to no avail. 1/2 a liter per minute... is this all I can get from this setup? :( I don't know what I could be doing wrong... I've checked to voltage in between each plate, checked the seals on the tanks, and just about everything I can think of... I am a junior in high school and am truely commited to getting this working so any help would REALLY be appreciated :) I just don't know where to go from here...

Also, I took a quick video of my setup so you all can see everything that I'm talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUlijpPKnQI&feature=youtu.be

Thanks ahead of time :D

[dswareagle]

what size wires are you feeding your cell with? with my first cell i tried with too small a wire to power it and it wouldnt produce a single bubble.and three holes in line in each plate is definately leaking current.

[-AK87-]

Hi, I am running 12 gauge wire through the entire system (Started off with 10 gauge but it seemed quite annoying to work with and I figured 12 was good enough, so thats what I used) The wires are not getting hot either (slghtly warm but nothing more). 12 guage wire should be able to handle 17 amps at 12 volts easily... right? Also what do you mean by the holes causing leaking current? Do you you think it would be bad enough to cause the lack of performance I'm getting? (That would essentially tell me that I wasted 180 dollars on stainless steel haha) Oh, and the plates are 316L, not 314 :P sorry it's been a while since I bought them...

[dswareagle]

did you sand or media blast the plates? 12 may not be enough considering how far from your energy source your cell is.( ever run a skill saw off long cheap extention cord? takes a sec to get up to speed) what temperatures are you running? im not saying you wasted your money although the yodas on here may but rest assured electricity would much rather run straight through your electrolyte than through stainless thats the whole idea behind staggered holes to make the path of least resistance to go through the plates rather than wind back and forth through the electrolyte

how many volts are you running? it looks like in the video you are below 12...

[dswareagle]

also what is the longest you have run the cell? did you condition it with low amps after you built it?

[-AK87-]

I sanded all the plates with a da then cleaned and scrubbed them down with soap and water (rinsed extensively to get soap off) and used alcohol wipes on each side of each plate and the o rings when I assembled the whole thing. (Both times :P) And you could be right about the wires, but back when I had the cell as a 19 plate, I hooked the cell directly to a fully charged 12v and it didn't make a difference length wise. (In terms of production) I could of sworn I read something that said 12 gauge was sufficent for the length and amperage I was looking at, but according to: http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm , it would appear that I need 8 gauge wire... (12 is only rated for 9.3 amps power transmission) I guess that I can try a heavier gauge and see if theres a difference, thanks dswareagle. Also, I have run it for probably 1 hour the longest in use in the vehicle, otherwise I don't typically drive for more than 30 mins at a time where I need to go. After I re-built it, I ran it for two hours at about 7 amps to condition. And if the wire doesn't work: 1. is there any way to seal holes in the plates in a professional, working manner? 2. would staggering the neutral plates between vertical in line holes and horizontal in line holes make a difference do you think? Oh and typically at 17ish amps, the cell runs about 100-110 degrees F by my estimate. (I don't have a temp gun, although I suppose I could use meat thermometer or something of the like) putting your hand on the plates, it feels quite warm, but not yet hot haha if that helps. And you are correct, according to that voltmeter I am typically running at 11ish volts, which doesn't correspond with the voltmeter in my dash, but regardless I will use an actual voltmeter at the cell and let you know. (I did this once previously and recall the gauge in my box being slightly low for some reason... again I'll let you know)

[dswareagle]

I sanded all the plates with a da then cleaned and scrubbed them down with soap and water (rinsed extensively to get soap off) and used alcohol wipes on each side of each plate and the o rings when I assembled the whole thing. (Both times :P) And you could be right about the wires, but back when I had the cell as a 19 plate, I hooked the cell directly to a fully charged 12v and it didn't make a difference length wise. (In terms of production) I could of sworn I read something that said 12 gauge was sufficent for the length and amperage I was looking at, but according to: http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm , it would appear that I need 8 gauge wire... (12 is only rated for 9.3 amps power transmission) I guess that I can try a heavier gauge and see if theres a difference, thanks dswareagle. Also, I have run it for probably 1 hour the longest in use in the vehicle, otherwise I don't typically drive for more than 30 mins at a time where I need to go. After I re-built it, I ran it for two hours at about 7 amps to condition. And if the wire doesn't work: 1. is there any way to seal holes in the plates in a professional, working manner? 2. would staggering the neutral plates between vertical in line holes and horizontal in line holes make a difference do you think? Oh and typically at 17ish amps, the cell runs about 100-110 degrees F by my estimate. (I don't have a temp gun, although I suppose I could use meat thermometer or something of the like) putting your hand on the plates, it feels quite warm, but not yet hot haha if that helps. And you are correct, according to that voltmeter I am typically running at 11ish volts, which doesn't correspond with the voltmeter in my dash, but regardless I will use an actual voltmeter at the cell and let you know. (I did this once previously and recall the gauge in my box being slightly low for some reason... again I'll let you know)

well at 11 volts the way your cell is puts you at 1.833 volts per cell just barely enough to make the gas at all

if you put the other plates on their side then they will only fill up with water half way and gas will fill the rest of the cell...no bueno

have you tried just taking one plate our of each stack and see if that helps? might work instead of changing to larger gauge wire.

[-AK87-]

Oh duh that would be a bad idea... haha wow its like I forgot why I drilled those holes in the first place. I thought of trying four neutrals, but from what I read about electrolysis, it is, in its most ideal form (which mine is not), most efficent at 1.5 volts and anything over that is just wasted energy. But would 2-3 volts be more effective for what I'm doing maybe? Well, I'll try both things and get back to you. I know that I tried hooking up another battery in series before the generator (- to - to generator and + to + to generator) and the increased amperage made a signifigant difference until I adjusted it too high and it blew my 30 amp fuse :P Also I need to do some more reading on neutrals and the configurations of more succesful generators... I guess I just thought 5 neutrals was the way to go based off what I read about Faraday and the efficent 1.5v threshold. (Assuming 12 volts, I should be getting 2 volts across each)

[dswareagle]

Oh duh that would be a bad idea... haha wow its like I forgot why I drilled those holes in the first place. I thought of trying four neutrals, but from what I read about electrolysis, it is, in its most ideal form (which mine is not), most efficent at 1.5 volts and anything over that is just wasted energy. But would 2-3 volts be more effective for what I'm doing maybe? Well, I'll try both things and get back to you. I know that I tried hooking up another battery in series before the generator (- to - to generator and + to + to generator) and the increased amperage made a signifigant difference until I adjusted it too high and it blew my 30 amp fuse :P Also I need to do some more reading on neutrals and the configurations of more succesful generators... I guess I just thought 5 neutrals was the way to go based off what I read about Faraday and the efficent 1.5v threshold. (Assuming 12 volts, I should be getting 2 volts across each)

well ideally u will get about 13.8V off of your alternator which would give 2.3 for 6 cell stack and 1.9 for 7 cell stack

id say that sounds like money right there if you are able to run it that well with the power sourch closer hook you pwm to that battery in ur trunk and roll with it bro

[aceras624]

why havent you increased your KOH% yet? or did I miss something?

[dswareagle]

why havent you increased your KOH% yet? or did I miss something?

not a bad idea there

[BioFarmer93]

why havent you increased your KOH% yet? or did I miss something?

Seriously Ace, good point! I went back and read the first post again and remembered that I had meant to say something about that a couple of days ago, but got sidetracked and forgot..
Full strength electrolyte is a bit more than 2 POUNDS of KOH flakes to 3 quarts of water (28% by weight). I'm really getting worn out by all the people I read about and see on YouTube telling folks to use such minuscule amounts of NaOh or KOH. The reason they do that is touted as "safety" but the reality of the situation is that they are either selling or using a poorly designed electrolyser that experiences thermal runaway when it's electrolyte is mixed to have the lowest possible resistance, thereby making a more efficient unit.

[-AK87-]

Alright, so the unit is effectively getting 12-13.8 volts depending on the charge of the battery and status of alternator. Anyway, I realize increasing the concentration of electrolyte is a way to increase amerage across the plates and generate more hydrogen, but from the experiments I've done it never seemed to change very much... :/ Back when I was running the 19 plate setup I essentailly had the same issue with production and hoped adding more plates and decreasing the plate gap would drasically increase production, but it didn't. (Better yes, but still only .5 lpm) So the first thing I tried was increasing the concentration, and when I had over a 30% strength solution, it made no noticable difference in prodution compared to my 10% solution hence why I'm using a weak solution now. (Why use more than you need to was the general idea) In addition, I ran two pices of threaded rod about an 1/8" apart into a roughly 40% solution (very concentrated) in order to see if I could get more than the 16 amps with the pwm turned up all the way, but nothing seemed to make a difference. Regardless, I still need to try different gauge wire/ using a battery in series, and changing the number of neutral plates and see what I get. Its just very frustrating to have the cell setup I have and see generators like the "punch slimline" that are supposively capable of generating 1lpm with 15 amps and only 7 plates. (Suposively the efficency is greatly improved by not having holes in the plates, but it can't really be determined from the pictures how the electrolyte circulates then...) http://www.punchhho.com/ Its roughly an inch thick I believe...

Anyway, the only other thing I've heard that could be an issue is the pwm I am using. Apparently some pwms are very cheap and actually waste a decent amount of electrical energy (Getting very hot, which mine does). I'm using a ogo 30amp pwm that can be found here: http://www.amazon.com/HHO-PWM-30a-Fan-Case/dp/B0035R3JN0 If the case is that it is sucking power much as the only review says, could anyone point me in the direction of a much more efficent, higher amperage pwm? I think that I may end up running more than one generator in series to get better production... Also, has anyone proven that changing the frequency of pulses of a pwm can help improve production on plate based hho generators? (vs tube based) Regardless, to really determine if the pwm is making a difference, I'm going to hook up a fully charged 13.8v battery directly to the generator with 8 gauge wire and take another production measurement. But based off what "punch" claims, it would seem that the holes I drilled in the plates are in fact destroying any hope of getting better efficency and more production. If anyone has seen one of those taken apart please let me know. It seems to me that if there weren't any holes in the plates, the solution would have to enter through gaps in between gaskets/o rings that space the plates, but that would cause current leakage through the ends much like a wet cell would it not? The whole idea of the dry cell was to eliminate the current leakage lost from the edges of the plates...

[-AK87-]

Also, I'd rather not use a super concentrated solution of KOH because I've heard that **** does baaaad things to engines and I do not currently have anything to
"filter" the gases besides the secondary bubbler. Also, I have found that in my design when the generator gets warm and then I leave it overnight where it gets down to 30s-40s, the gas in the main tank cools and draws the water from the bubbler into the main tank. I want to put a relief valve of sorts to prevent this and have a one way generic "flash arestor" that fits into the 3/8 hose and is commonly used for hho applications. However, I'm afraid that in operation, this will not properly seal and might vent some of the gases into the cabin of the jeep. I think this because in testing, when I open the cap after the unit has ran for awhile, a misty, sort of steam comes out. (I know its not steam because the generator doesn't get hot enough to boil water and the gas being created is very explosive... haha.) When I had the one way valve installed, even though it was in a position so that gas was not supposed to be able to leave, the same steam-like "stuff" (Yes very scientific, I know.) slowly leaked from the valve.

[-AK87-]

Ah well this explains it... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDjnPMji9YU So running 4 neutrals and getting 1 lpm at 14ish volts with 15 amps... with gaskets open just near water port and gas port. If anyone could explain why a generator loses so much efficency becasue of the holes in the plates, I would really appreciate if you could explain it or maybe link me to somewhere where someone else does. :-)

[BioFarmer93]

Ah well this explains it... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDjnPMji9YU So running 4 neutrals and getting 1 lpm at 14ish volts with 15 amps... with gaskets open just near water port and gas port. If anyone could explain why a generator loses so much efficency becasue of the holes in the plates, I would really appreciate if you could explain it or maybe link me to somewhere where someone else does. :-)

It's pretty straight forward, it's called current leakage because from an application standpoint that is exactly what is happening. The holes in the neutral plates that have not been insulated with Weldon-16 allow current to leak from one side of the plate to the other in a small concentrated area instead of "forcing" a stronger polarity shift that neutral or (more properly called bipolar) plates are depended upon to do. The other form of leakage that occurs through these holes travels the span of bipolar plates through the electrolyte from one power plate to the closest opposite polarity power plate.

As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.. Please post some detailed photos of you reactor so that we may stop shooting around in the dark. Personally I think your PWM is most likely the culprit, especially since you stated that it was getting hot. They get warm, but hot is a sign of poor design.

[-AK87-]

Sorry, I'm not a forum guru, so just go to this link: http://www.troovi.com/vY04e2xZnAAn#tDhP72Z97zj2 I uploaded a pitcure of some plates laid out after I disassembled the (rebuilt version of the) first generator. And I put a picture of the first version with polycarb plates running so you can see the holes. (which cracked and spilled the soution all over my basement XD I work in the garage from now on...) I guess from that description I would assume I'm getting terrible current leakage because I have three holes that basically go through the entire generator (3 holes are lined up with each consecutive plate). Well regardless, I hooked up a fully charged battery straight to the generator with 10 gauge wire and got *drumrole* 1.7lpm! Insane difference in production... So in the jeep, I took out the pwm and got roughly 1 lpm which means that I'm going to have to rip out all the 12 gauge wire and run better stuff. I'm thinking, since I have a ton of nice 10 gauge wire, I will run two 10 gauge wires for positive and two for negative. That way I will have plenty of wire to handle whatever current I want to send especially if and when I want to expand the system. I just feel like an idiot now because I didn't do proper research on the current leakage issue and now my production is a fraction of what it could be... haha I don't think I could really patch the plates, I'd probably have to completely redo the design.

[aceras624]

wow couldnt help but notcie that there was a big change in production in that vid when he changed from 14 volts to 12 volts. Guess that was beacuse of the 4 nuetral plates. so the production would be all over the place with the altenator switching on and off. Glad I dont have that thing :)

[aceras624]

if the wire size was an issue, they would have gotten hot and/or melted!! I didnt notice you saying anything about them getting hot. also Did you use weldon around the holes? you can use weldon to get ride of that center hole all together :)