separator membrain, what material?

[tweakedlogic]

First of all, I've been lurking around here for a long time now. I finally registered today. Thanks for all the info I've gathered.
I'm building my second generator. I'm using 8x8 20 ga 316 plates. I keep going back to wanting a separator cell. I don't know what the the membrane material is called. So i don't know what to search for to find a vendor. I found this (http://www.regpye.com.au/shop/viewitem.php?productid=159) but they don't tell you what the material is, and won't answer my emails about cutting a custom size.

So what should I use? Where do I get it?

[myoldyourgold]

First of all, I've been lurking around here for a long time now. I finally registered today. Thanks for all the info I've gathered.
I'm building my second generator. I'm using 8x8 20 ga 316 plates. I keep going back to wanting a separator cell. I don't know what the the membrane material is called. So i don't know what to search for to find a vendor. I found this (http://www.regpye.com.au/shop/viewitem.php?productid=159) but they don't tell you what the material is, and won't answer my emails about cutting a custom size.

So what should I use? Where do I get it?

The material used by most is Uncoated Ripstop nylon.
http://www.seattlefabrics.com/nylons.html?gclid=CL661Ovkpq8CFWcHRQod_G4yWw#1.1%2 0oz%20RS0
The other is the finest nylon used in the slick screening industry. Both must be uncoated.

The problem with both of these materials is they do not prevent bleed over. The reservoirs must have exactly the same pressure so have to be connected at the bottom but any large bump, steep grade, fast stop will result in uneven pressure and one of the gases will leak into the other. The only membrane that prevents this is patented and prohibitive in price. It is used in fuel cells. The gains by splitting will never be as good as can be obtained by a well setup good HHO reactor producing high quality gas. People selling this stuff have a different story which is mainly hype in my opinion.

[tweakedlogic]

Thank you for the info. And thanks for the link. I'll check, but I doubt anyone in Memphis can laser cut it for me. Probably going to have to ship it with specs to some where.

I'm not too concerned with some bleed over. Absolute separation is not a goal. If a little O2 gets mixed in, I don't think I'll even notice. Just trying to see what gains there are to be had if any. This is going in a 4.0 Explorer. EPA rated @ 17 avg in 1992. Add in the lift and 33" tires and it's pretty much a brick on stilts.

[Shane Jackson]

Another material you can get local is landscape fabric.

[threshie3]

Nafion membrane and other brand names are used in many fuel cells and new (previously HHO) generators to block the migration of O2 into H2 as they are respectively generated by the anodes and cathodes.

[aceras624]

why dont you want the Oxygen?

[myoldyourgold]

Nafion membrane and other brand names are used in many fuel cells and new (previously HHO) generators to block the migration of O2 into H2 as they are respectively generated by the anodes and cathodes.

Very true but will add at least $800 to a 7 cell 8 plate bipolar reactor. With less results than a simple HHO reactor with no separation.



why dont you want the Oxygen?

When just H is injected it uses some of O that normally would be used by the fuel and would show rich if you injected enough and the ECM would try to lean out things biased on the O2 sensor. The problem with this is it will take more current/HP than you would get gain to make than much H, so HHO is better in my opinion when done right. Small gains are possible with just H with no electronics when done right but I think small gains are also available with HHO and no electronics but maybe harder to his the right spot.

HHO in larger volumes shows more O2 in the exhaust so the ECM tries to richen the mixture. This is why EFIE's are used.

[threshie3]

I actually have quotes for the membrane in a .007" thickness to do a complete 7 plate cell for less than $100. Am I missing something, is that a sufficient thickness for impermeability, or maybe it is just more affordable now than your last pricing?

[myoldyourgold]

That could be possible but without knowing the size of your plates I can not compare. It sounds like a good deal to me.

[RustyLugNut]

HHO in larger volumes shows more O2 in the exhaust so the ECM tries to richen the mixture. This is why EFIE's are used.

Did you measure this excess O2 in the exhaust? And if you did, how was this measured?

[myoldyourgold]

Use a wide band O2 sensor and gauge. I think it is misleading to say there is more O2 but that is what is understood. That is also what the O2 sensor shows. I think it is a ratio of O2 to other gases and junk in the exhaust which makes it look like more O2 when actually it less of the everything else. To really know you will need to use a gas spectrometer.

[RustyLugNut]

So, have you yourself made and observed these measurements? If not, do you have reference to someone who did?

[myoldyourgold]

Rusty, I use a wide band O2 sensor and gauge to tune with. So yes. I have not had the exhaust analyzed with a gas spectrometer. This is a common problem when using HHO the computer wants dump more fuel because it thinks there is a lean condition based on the O2 single. This can be looked at in two ways less pollutes so more O2 or more O2. If you have any ideas on this, post them.

[tweakedlogic]

Well guys I know it's been a while. I have nothing to show you for my time. I've been hit with several things that put my gen on the back burner. I did source (http://www.seattlefabrics.com/nylons.html?gclid=CL661Ovkpq8CFWcHRQod_G4yWw#1.1%2 0oz%20RS0)some uncoated nylon. It's 1.1 oz, $9.25 per yard (63" wide). And I found a company (http://www.cutlasercut.com/laser-cutting-materials-laser-engraving-materials/laser-cutting-nylon) that will cut it for me. I can have the nylon shipped to them and they will then cut it and ship the membranes and anything left over to me. I still have to finish my CAD file and make doubly sure it's all correct before I do this. I would hate to do all this only to get them in my hands and find out I designed the the things wrong. I'm going to have them make my gaskets too.
BTW, I'm building a 7 cell 8 plate dry generator. I have the plates, but realized I didn't leave any room to connect my power leads. :eek: so I'll be getting two more made with power tabs. I might make a third so later i can double the cells.