anyone do any cell temp testing for ortho?

[abssystems]

I have been reading alot on this Ortho/Para gas production
following "My old " and several other here and in other locations

basically i get it" to much heat can be your downfall "

so what I am wondering and working with is this

has anyone done any testing to the temp conditions that seem to make your Gas better?
I see alot of info on what happens with to much heat
but most of it has to do with amp drawn, steam, spew, brown sludge, etc and all those side affects
i have that stuff addressed
but i have been doing base line testing trying to make the best gas I can
and watching the temp on my cell etc
so are there any base lines to work with
like trying to keep cell temp averaging 20 to 30 deg above ambiant temp?

I'm looking for any imput folks have found to assist me with this test

[myoldyourgold]

I have been reading alot on this Ortho/Para gas production
following "My old " and several other here and in other locations

basically i get it" to much heat can be your downfall "

so what I am wondering and working with is this

has anyone done any testing to the temp conditions that seem to make your Gas better?
I see alot of info on what happens with to much heat
but most of it has to do with amp drawn, steam, spew, brown sludge, etc and all those side affects
i have that stuff addressed
but i have been doing base line testing trying to make the best gas I can
and watching the temp on my cell etc
so are there any base lines to work with
like trying to keep cell temp averaging 20 to 30 deg above ambiant temp?

I'm looking for any imput folks have found to assist me with this test

It is good to see that some are looking at temperature seriously. I am continually plotting temperature and how it relates to ambient and gas quality. Ambient plays such a major role yet is forgotten or just not even considered by most. Bench testing and in a vehicle testing is completely different. When bench top ambient is 70ºF and the reactor is running at 90ºF to 95ºF is a different picture than when it is as high as 150ºF in a vehicle engine compartment that is stationary when the outside ambient is say 90ºF to 100ºF with the AC running. I have found that in warmer weather reactors need to be set up different than in colder weather. The best solution is to have dual reservoirs so the volume of electrolyte helps control concentration and the temperature keeping it more constant. This is more critical than most understand when it comes to quality of gas. I have found that good reactors with the right volume of electrolyte will follow ambient from 110 on up within plus or minus 2 degrees F given enough time. This is a good reason to have air flowing across the second reservoir and have it outside the engine compartment. I found I can locate the second reservoir in most vehicles in the front bumper area using a length of 4 inch PVC pipe as the reservoir. In cold weather I use only one reservoir that is always in the engine compartment that has limited air flow around it when the vehicle is moving except in extremely cold weather where all the rules change. I have a valve system to cut off the second reservoir in cold weather and drain it. More trouble but worth it when temperatures are freezing or below. Traveling form extreme cold to much warmer weather is not a problem with this system.

There is always trade offs and that is one reason that getting consistent gains in a vehicle in changing weather is difficult varies a lot. The ideal temperature is very difficult to maintain. Keeping temperatures of the electrolyte between 90ºF to 110ºF is about the best you can do. The closer you are to 90 the better the quality of gas will be exiting your reactor. Colder weather comes with different problems that also restricts your gains. Gas temperature is very critical to quality of gas and requires more study.

[Sodbuster]

Got a Idea for you on how temps could be controlled.

When producing Alcohol in a still it is sOO important to keep temps in the column at exactly 147 deg, no more no less. Anything less than 147 you are producing wood alcohol/methanol anything more and you loose production. The way we achieve perfect temps in the column as Alcohol leaves the boiler and travels up the column the alcohol travels through copper coils that are spiraled through the column. These coils are pumped with water and controlled with a Johnson water valve that is fully adjustable to the temp that you so desire, in our case 147 deg. This water valve opens and closes allowing water to flow and cool the coils keeping temps perfect in the column producing alcohol. This could be retrofitted to say a supply water tank that would contain your water for your cell. You could use say 4 inch PVC pipe with a cap on the bottom and a screw on access cap on top. Than using 1/4" plastic/vinyl flex tubbing that is spiraled up through the 4 inch PVC pipe it would need to inter say the top and exit the bottom. Now you would connect your water temp valve on the inlet side and than plume it to the cooling coil. Now You would also need a supply tank just for water and ran with a 12 volt water bilge pump. However there is a problem:confused: water temps in your water reservoir tank that is pumping water through the water valve and through the cooling coils that are coiled in your supply tank for your cell that are now returned back to your resevor.... now are hot and we are dumping hot water back in the supply tank creating another problem:eek: So you would need to run a heat exchanger ( like a small radiator) with a 12 volt fan blowing cool air through the heat exchanger keeping water temps in check. Large scale fuel production of ethanol use this type of system along with small scale producers, its the only way keeping temps perfect. I see no reason why this could not be used to be retrofitted for what you are trying to do.

[koya1893]

It is good to see that some are looking at temperature seriously. I am continually plotting temperature and how it relates to ambient and gas quality. Ambient plays such a major role yet is forgotten or just not even considered by most. Bench testing and in a vehicle testing is completely different. When bench top ambient is 70ºF and the reactor is running at 90ºF to 95ºF is a different picture than when it is as high as 150ºF in a vehicle engine compartment that is stationary when the outside ambient is say 90ºF to 100ºF with the AC running. I have found that in warmer weather reactors need to be set up different than in colder weather. The best solution is to have dual reservoirs so the volume of electrolyte helps control concentration and the temperature keeping it more constant. This is more critical than most understand when it comes to quality of gas. I have found that good reactors with the right volume of electrolyte will follow ambient from 110 on up within plus or minus 2 degrees F given enough time. This is a good reason to have air flowing across the second reservoir and have it outside the engine compartment. I found I can locate the second reservoir in most vehicles in the front bumper area using a length of 4 inch PVC pipe as the reservoir. In cold weather I use only one reservoir that is always in the engine compartment that has limited air flow around it when the vehicle is moving except in extremely cold weather where all the rules change. I have a valve system to cut off the second reservoir in cold weather and drain it. More trouble but worth it when temperatures are freezing or below. Traveling form extreme cold to much warmer weather is not a problem with this system.

There is always trade offs and that is one reason that getting consistent gains in a vehicle in changing weather is difficult varies a lot. The ideal temperature is very difficult to maintain. Keeping temperatures of the electrolyte between 90ºF to 110ºF is about the best you can do. The closer you are to 90 the better the quality of gas will be exiting your reactor. Colder weather comes with different problems that also restricts your gains. Gas temperature is very critical to quality of gas and requires more study.

Glad to see/hear that someone has taken the same approach with dual reservoir. This is the mainstay of all my install, it keeps the system cool during the summer.

[Sodbuster]

Ruff draft:

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[myoldyourgold]

Sodbuster, the heat in excess of 95º F is not coming from the reactor in my case and shouldn't be from any good reactor. The excess heat is from ambient temperature. If you use a pump and cooling system because of heat from the reactor you are just masking a problem with the reactor. Think of it like this which is just a way of helping to understanding what is happening. Ions are attracted to the cathode and the anode but if the flow is stronger than the attraction where do some of them go.....out to the reservoir in the fast flowing electrolyte. This is not what you want. I would avoid a pump when ever possible. When the outside air is 110ºF your electrolyte is going to be 110ºF, pump or no pump, or with cooling coils. Just be thankful you do not live where temperatures, well over 100ºF, is common place. Location of the reactor and reservoirs are important to help maintain the correct temperature. At best your reactor will run just over ambient and follow it with just a little lag in ambient over 100ºF. I am talking about outside ambient temperatures not engine ambient. That is why reactor placement is important so it closely matches outside moving air ambient in the summer and the opposite in the winter when the vehicle is moving.

Your diagram shows a reactor running in flooded state all the time which will encourage current leakage and speed up the flow of electrolyte which results in less gas per amp and other not so good things. Ideally you want the electrolyte to stay just below the exit port and only moisture in the bubbles/gas is what is headed out. This will be more than enough to keep an efficient reactor running at a good temperature. This is not always practical and some little flow with brakes in it which helps insulate against current leakage is tolerable.

[abssystems]

Thanks for the info folks :)
being very new at this i have done a ton of reading to date
as well as testing some ideas my own and others

mind you I am still very much a newbie and still testing
a little info to help you understand where I'm at
My test bed is a compact truck with a tool bed on the back so i have no room bed
zero room in the engine compartment without removing working parts or relocating the battery box ( which i may end up having to do)
i may have to look for another location for battery to put a second res in its location for winter
at this point the best i can think of to control my temp would be blocking air to the cell/ res or a controlable heat exchanger devise of some sort to add heat without me having to drive my amps up or pump my elyte to do so
i mean i can easy run up heat by adding amps but to me that seems to defeat the purpose after a point?

i wonder if placeing a trans cooler in front of my cell and adding heater line to it from engine coolant will blow warm air at it during cooler months to help the temp be more stable and defuse the cold air coming at it
it would be easy to shut off on warmer days with standard auto componants HUMMM

for my use and my application my biggest concern will be getting the cell warm enough without running up amps to do so
I drive all highway 120-150 miles round trip
today the wind chill had my grill at 30 deg and my reactor was at 49 drawning
15 amps
i do not wish to run this cell over 20 amps
ideas???

the location of my reactor and res are very limited especialy to keep the res high enough to fill the reactor the correct amount
(the only place i can do this is in the grill)
so i will need some serious thought on how to control my heat in a better range to make quality gas
especialy during cooler months here in the northeast


i have noted to date are the fact temp both ambient and cell/ res greatly seem to affect my gas quaility

[abssystems]

@ myold
your 100% correct
a reactor runs one way on a test bench in climate control
then totaly differant in a moving vehicle>LOL
getting it to run optimum in a moving vehicle with extream climate changes is harder to do than getting the truck computor to deal with the gas
chuckles

[Sodbuster]

Sup ... ABS,

Hey I no you are strapped for space on your rig with no place to put the generator or supply tank, I also have got the same dilemma. In my case there is no way I would even consider putting the cell in the engine compartment with summer heat and engine temps ... must be 250 deg or better under the hood. That cant be good for a cell or a supply tank, and like you and MyOld are discussing trying to keep the supply tank at ambient temps there is just no way to do it under the hood/oven. I think the only way is in the bed and in some sort of a compartment. I'm going with a storage locker 40 high 17 wide 15 deep. Than I'm going to insulate it with 1/2 foam.... powder coat it, and do some diamond plate work on it to give it some bling:) there is plenty of room for the supply tank to be mounted above the cell for flow and room to boot for bubbler's. Winter/and summer temps here in the mid west can be brutal and I'm sure you are going to be fighting the same battle so its just an Idea you may want to throw around.

[abssystems]

@ sodbuster
I wish i had space in the bed for even battery relocation
as it is im driving a compact truck downsized from a full size with read body to hold my tools
I cant even fit what i used to carry in the bed of this truck:(

the other factor i don't like is there is something to be said for getting the gas in the throttle as soon as able
of course we all have to make some sacrifices

Im really giving thought to a controlable heat exchanger
we use them all the time in solar applications so designing one for this need souldn;t be to hard ( i hope)

I deal with more cool days than hot ones
of course this means the additon of a good temp sensor for the cell/res also mounted in my cab> lol
Im starting to get more controls and gauges in the cab for the HHO then for the truck its running in
But to do real time testing while driving at hywy speed it sure does help to watch and control stuff from in the cab:)
I'm about ready to convert it all over to a laptop as i have several meters and gauges watching the cell and the engine under driving conditions now thus my pass seat is a electronics holding station > chuckling

i have seen some cool looking bed mounted systems online but i have no clue how well they actually work
it sure would sove the space restrictions
the only thing under my hood is my bubbler

if your trying to beat the heat why didn't you grill mount sounds like the air flow would help you?

[myoldyourgold]

Here is something some of you that are in the colder regions, like my home base is, might be interested in. In the winter when it is not unheard of to have a couple of days of -60ºF where my base is, your electrolyte even at full strength goes to mush and it takes a long time to get it heated up. What I did was route the return heater hose though the center of my second reservoir. I have to plug into the mains at those temperatures and so I make sure the heater valve is open and the block heater then cycles the heat through the heater and the electrolyte keeping it above its mushing temperature. With the heater off there is no extra heat in the second reservoir. I found when ever I need heat in the car I needed it in the reservoir too. Works well for me. In California when temperature hits 110ºF I wish I could run some of the AC through there. That does not happen very often but because the reservoir is low to the ground it picks up a lot of heat off the highway especially on those hot days when everyone is out frying eggs on the sidewalk. LOL