Heavy HHO hitters

[Sodbuster]

Hi Folks new to the forum

Need some input on a Idea I have... I just purchased a 38 plate dry cell from Green Fuel H20. This is the big rig set up and I am going to install this system on my 98 chevy 5.7 pick up 4X4.
I have a Idea that I need some input, I want to put a PWM on the fuel pump so I can decrees fuel delivery at the same time increase HHO. Sounds logical to me and this is why I am asking, I have not seen this done and why I don't no. You would think if your going to add HHO you need to remove fuel delivery, re mapping is only going to do so much and your still going to have the same amount of fuel being delivered so why not take it away and add more HHO.

Another question I run E85, and my rig is a none flex fuel and I have been doing it for 8 years and logged over 150,000 miles on E85. Half the time my rig is stuck in closed loop with the check engine light on. My fuel mileage is not great but I love the performance and I believe Alcohol is a good solution to alternative fuel and I support them. Anyways I want to be able to supplement HHO for my fuel lose and experiment from there :)

[koya1893]

Sorry but I quickly scanned your post, with the new data presented on just how much HHO per 1 liter of eng displacement. That cell will be WAY TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO BIG for that 5.7, especially a truck with a ODBI system and one O2 if not, none.

[Sodbuster]

Sorry but I quickly scanned your post, with the new data presented on just how much HHO per 1 liter of eng displacement. That cell will be WAY TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO BIG for that 5.7, especially a truck with a ODBI system and one O2 if not, none.

Thanks Koya for your input... But I want to over kill this system, reason... thats what the PWM is for, is it not? I have watched many videos and even Mike at HHO connection says that it is better to go to big than not big enough, he even recommends to go with two 31 plate dry cells and turn them down via the PWM, And this is what I want to be able to accomplish. I want to be able to control fuel delivery via the fuel pump with a PWM and compensate it for HHO, my question.... has anybody done it. The ODB 2 will most likely not no what to think and go into limp mood but so what my rig half the time is stuck in closed loop any Howe and runs on limp mood set values, I'm running E85 in a none flex fuel truck and the pcm does not no what to think... truck runs perfect just fuel mileage sucks :)

[BioFarmer93]

Thanks Koya for your input... But I want to over kill this system, reason... thats what the PWM is for, is it not? I have watched many videos and even Mike at HHO connection says that it is better to go to big than not big enough, he even recommends to go with two 31 plate dry cells and turn them down via the PWM, And this is what I want to be able to accomplish. I want to be able to control fuel delivery via the fuel pump with a PWM and compensate it for HHO, my question.... has anybody done it. The ODB 2 will most likely not no what to think and go into limp mood but so what my rig half the time is stuck in closed loop any Howe and runs on limp mood set values, I'm running E85 in a none flex fuel truck and the pcm does not no what to think... truck runs perfect just fuel mileage sucks :)

Hey Sodbuster,
Welcome to the forum. I think for what you want to do, you need to PM user "Ultra Efficient". If you want to take over that much control of your ECU, then you really ought to do it right... His name is Richard.

[myoldyourgold]

I have some limited experience with OBD I 5.7 4x4. What kind of mileage are you getting without HHO and how much are you getting with your reactor? I will have a lot more experience in the next month.

[koya1893]

Sandbuster,
I was looking around for some old data for my first testbed (1987 Chevy Suburban with 5.7 TBI). At that time I copied a wet cell design in a 4" PVC, it was getting 7-8 mpg, with the wet cell design of -NNN+NNN-. the mpg increased to 14 mpg. I thought that was great, then I was introduced to dry cell by the "mentors" in here. I started running reveres engineering them for efficiency, hence what I have now.
having said that proves the new findings on the ratio of HHO per 1 liter of engine displacement. I can't believe i am going to say this. Those "BOMB" in the jar which barely produced any HHO might give us something to consider, but not in the jar but the low output.

All this time we were thinking "go big or stay home", yes you can incoporate a PWM to control the amps to that big cell. but the question you need to asked is: do you need to? do you really need that big of a cell. My wife's Town Car has 4.6, she gets 20-22 mpg with one cell -NNNNN+, her car is another mytery to me, now it is not because that cell is at best will produce 1 LPM the way it is. So the lower HHO ratio per liter I am leaning to follow, hence smaller cell and low mixture of NaOH.

[myoldyourgold]

Ben, it is impossible to compare One car to another. My fathers 97 town car with only 75000 miles on it gets 21 miles per gallon on the highway and 19 in town. No HHO. He is a real nut for records and maintaining that car at 95 he says it is the last car he will own. The 5.7 I tested 2 years ago averaged on the highway 17 to 18 miles per gallon. With 2 liter per minute, a crude water injection setup, an ozone generator, the proper timing adjustments and an EFIE it went to 20 miles per gallon on a 2300 mile test trip. This year with newer electronics and a more efficient reactor producing 3 LPM I am predicting it will get to 25 MPG maybe more but doubt that when it does the same trip. So it is hard to really compare because of so many things that are different. Just the weather effects this stuff. The open bath cells work in very dry climates because of the moisture in the HHO not because of much else. A good water injection system by it self might in the same dry climate do just as good.

[Madsceintist]

HUM.......................................... that' new . :rolleyes: No ones done this. Oh wait maybe I have . Or did I . I cant recall. :D

[koya1893]

Ben, it is impossible to compare One car to another. My fathers 97 town car with only 75000 miles on it gets 21 miles per gallon on the highway and 19 in town. No HHO. He is a real nut for records and maintaining that car at 95 he says it is the last car he will own. The 5.7 I tested 2 years ago averaged on the highway 17 to 18 miles per gallon. With 2 liter per minute, a crude water injection setup, an ozone generator, the proper timing adjustments and an EFIE it went to 20 miles per gallon on a 2300 mile test trip. This year with newer electronics and a more efficient reactor producing 3 LPM I am predicting it will get to 25 MPG maybe more but doubt that when it does the same trip. So it is hard to really compare because of so many things that are different. Just the weather effects this stuff. The open bath cells work in very dry climates because of the moisture in the HHO not because of much else. A good water injection system by it self might in the same dry climate do just as good.

Myold,
Yes, it is difficult to compare. However, the reason I am excited with my wife's result is; her driving is 10 mile round trip on a 45 mph stop and go and even slower once she get on base. She does not drive it on the highway per say, anything constant at 55-65 mph.

[Sodbuster]

Thanks for the input guys !!

My main concern is only one thing for now and that is regulating fuel pump pressure. I want to be able to turn down fuel pump pressure at the turn of a knob.... but is it possible to do it "via amperage" not like a fuel pressure regulator. At Idle fuel pressure is 59 psi and regulated to 62 under a load I want to control this PSI down as low as possible and in the meantime replace the lost fuel with HHO.... later on once and if this can be done I will get into re mapping and keeping this rig from being stuck in open loop or may not do anything at all about it. This truck has been stuck in open loop for some time now running on limp mood and it runs perfect, fuel mileage is about 11 to 14.
So what I'm after is it possible to control electric fuel pump pressure using a PWM or some other device. Also what are your thoughts with the pump amperage being removed do think it will burn up the pump?

[myoldyourgold]

Myold,
Yes, it is difficult to compare. However, the reason I am excited with my wife's result is; her driving is 10 mile round trip on a 45 mph stop and go and even slower once she get on base. She does not drive it on the highway per say, anything constant at 55-65 mph.

Ben, I agree that is excellent and I would be excited too. I was just showing how comparing even the same or similar car can have varying results. My dad's gets, with his driving, 19 average and he only drives in town now at his age all stop and go. It is much better than his v6 GM truck that gets 16 in town. When I am there and take some trips at 70 MPH or less it gets the 21 over 70 MPH it drops to 20. This summer if things go as planned I will install a system in his car and specifically tuned to his driving and see what it gets. It will have an auto fill large capacity reservoir so there should only be maintenance when ever I am there with his limited driving. Your installs have always been superb.

[myoldyourgold]

Thanks for the input guys !!

My main concern is only one thing for now and that is regulating fuel pump pressure. I want to be able to turn down fuel pump pressure at the turn of a knob.... but is it possible to do it "via amperage" not like a fuel pressure regulator. At Idle fuel pressure is 59 psi and regulated to 62 under a load I want to control this PSI down as low as possible and in the meantime replace the lost fuel with HHO.... later on once and if this can be done I will get into re mapping and keeping this rig from being stuck in open loop or may not do anything at all about it. This truck has been stuck in open loop for some time now running on limp mood and it runs perfect, fuel mileage is about 11 to 14.
So what I'm after is it possible to control electric fuel pump pressure using a PWM or some other device. Also what are your thoughts with the pump amperage being removed do think it will burn up the pump?

There is a thread some where on the forum that has a lot on pump regulation. This is an area that might and might not do what you want to do. One reason is the rail is pressurized to a set pressure and by slowing down the pump makes the pump run all the time and if it can't make the right pressure throw a code. Some systems have no return especially in the newer cars. Look that thread up and you will find some details. Use the search feature. I will try and find it this evening too when time permits.

[Madsceintist]

Sodbuster;
Yes you can control the pump and no it wont burn it up. Trust me when I say you'll need a good heat-sink and small durable fan as the pump pulls some amps and makes for a hot switch.
Myoldyougrold;
I'm sorry but as of yet I haven't seen even one pump that stops running or pressurizing when at or to a certain pressure. Any system that I have worked with, be it return(with an external regulator) or none return(without a external regulator) still has a return. Some having an internal spring pressure valve for release or an internally mounted regulator in the tank. One way or the other the system has a pressure regulator built in. So far the best I've seen is the flex fuel setup(single line, which has the regulator inside the pump assembly) !
Basically I'm saying that if the engines running the pump is running constantly by design. Electric or mechanical

Hell even the oldies on mechanical pumps have a spring release to ease pressure to the carb. (such as the one in the 57 ford pictured)

[myoldyourgold]

Madscientist, you must be to young to know of pumps that do that. It is true that the pumps that are used today might not and in most cases do not shut off. I know of a Honda that has not been driven for a few days when I turned on the key I hear the pump come on and when pressure was reached the sound goes away. Might not have actually turned off but there is no more noise. The system in the car bleeds down and if you try and start it without letting the pump pressure things up it is hard to start. Running all the time unless there is very less fuel in the tank does no harm to the pump being cooled by the fuel that is one of the reasons they are in the tank. I just am not convinced that it is the best way to lean things out with all the variables. I have not tired it so will not pass judgement other than to state what I already have. Might work well in some cases and not in others.

[Madsceintist]

Myoldyourgold;
This is true as the Honda, and several cars especially older ones. You hear it then you don't. The pump builds the pressure which when it is pressurized you don't hear it as loud! If the system is working as designed, then an electrical pump will only run a few seconds if the engine doesn't start. If the engine starts then the pump will continue to run until it has a break in the signal to the relay(a reference from the computer), even older cars had this ! Now some systems had better retention for sitting pressure than others, hence the bleed down.

Also if you run your tank low all the time you very well can and eventually will burn up a fuel pump by over-heating it to often.

[myoldyourgold]

Madscientist, you are right. That is how it works. Just for fun do you remember or have you seen a pump that stops with pressure. I will look for a picture but I doubt I will find one they are way to old. LOL I am talking 50's.

[Sodbuster]

Sodbuster;
Yes you can control the pump and no it wont burn it up. Trust me when I say you'll need a good heat-sink and small durable fan as the pump pulls some amps and makes for a hot switch.
Myoldyougrold;
I'm sorry but as of yet I haven't seen even one pump that stops running or pressurizing when at or to a certain pressure. Any system that I have worked with, be it return(with an external regulator) or none return(without a external regulator) still has a return. Some having an internal spring pressure valve for release or an internally mounted regulator in the tank. One way or the other the system has a pressure regulator built in. So far the best I've seen is the flex fuel setup(single line, which has the regulator inside the pump assembly) !
Basically I'm saying that if the engines running the pump is running constantly by design. Electric or mechanica

Hell even the oldies on mechanical pumps have a spring release to ease pressure to the carb. (such as the one in the 57 ford pictured)

Hey Mad, could you please link me to a good heat sink that well be able to do the job? >>> question <<< is this what you are talking about =)==> http://www.hhoconnection.com/Hydro_Fuel_Systems/HFS_PCU-150.html

[myoldyourgold]

Mad you have never worked on a point based pump then of the type I am referring to. OK that really dates me. LOL It stops completely when bowel is full and when running pumps slowly at idle and speeds up as rpm and demand increases. Pain in the you know where to keep working with the points needing dressing and setting often or changing. Those were not the good old days. LOL Sodbuster try it and report back.

[Madsceintist]

Sodbuster;
Yes, similar but you can build or buy much cheaper. RADIO SHACK......

Myold;
Your old :D . Just messing. I have around 30 cars of my own. So I do have and work on points and carbs. and anything mechanical. I've taking part in restoring(rebuilding) a 62 Jaguar, a 1933 Franklin, and several 50's,60's 70's and on cars trucks and equipment. I don't just replace parts that don't work, I take them apart to see why they don't then fix them ! Hell I'll pull a window switch apart clean the contacts and that's that. Most people now days will just put another in. Don't get me wrong if its broke and its a customers It gets a new one unless otherwise specified. But no as of yet I haven't seen a pump that stops while the engine is running.

[Sodbuster]

Mad... Thats the answer I was looking for after how many posts he he he he he >> thanks. I want control over the fuel pump and very pressure and increase HHO, I really think this is were MPG is going to shine.

My/old... Dude you working on Model T or what "lol" that dates yea fo sho
yes sir them were the days when everything ran on real fuel ALCOHOL <<



Thanks guys keep them tips coming

[Madsceintist]

Mad... Thats the answer I was looking for after how many posts he he he he he >> thanks. I want control over the fuel pump and very pressure and increase HHO, I really think this is were MPG is going to shine.




Sod ;
As some others pointed out you may want to watch your exhaust temp., but I'm not sure yet that there is a seriousness to this as yet because I'm still working on that. I've ran my Cavalier a while with this method and had no problems. Actually got 129 mpg that way. But that took me to another drawing board for better, that hasn't made its way in the car yet. So good luck catching up.

[myoldyourgold]

Mad.. is your 62 Jag an E type or sedan? The original pump on the sedan had a point type pump and was mounted in the drivers side rear fender in the trunk that fed the SU's. Know both the sedan and the E type like the back of my hand. Can shim the duel cams perfectly or should I say I could. LOL Doubt I am up to it any more. You guys have a great weekend.

[Madsceintist]

The car belongs to my tax lady in D'ville. It's been 7 yrs. since I've seen it .?! I can remember it had updraft carbs. and the gas tanks were in the trunk on both sides and came out from under the car(i think). We had a company dip them then seal them internally. Some small details escape me, however. It was a convertible, to small to be comfortable. And was beautiful when done ! Actually had to order the seal kit for the body from overseas? One from here in the US didn't fit. She drives it occasionally, and has an MG.

Sorry I don't own that one or the Franklin ! Just some that were customers. I have more time to work on theirs then mine..............

[hhoconnection]

Sorry but I quickly scanned your post, with the new data presented on just how much HHO per 1 liter of eng displacement. That cell will be WAY TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO BIG for that 5.7, especially a truck with a ODBI system and one O2 if not, none.

Iv'e been busy and did not see this post.

Ben, this is a GreenFuelH2O cell and the plates are small. He has a 5.7 liter engine so I figured he needed just under 3 LPM. Those cells run hot and I figured 5-8 amps max per stack. He would need up to 10 stacks to be safe. So we went a little bigger to compensate. So why is that WAY TOOOOOOOO BIG?

[Sodbuster]

Sod ;
As some others pointed out you may want to watch your exhaust temp., but I'm not sure yet that there is a seriousness to this as yet because I'm still working on that. I've ran my Cavalier a while with this method and had no problems. Actually got 129 mpg that way. But that took me to another drawing board for better, that hasn't made its way in the car yet. So good luck catching up.

So .... you were adjusting/varing fuel pump pressure via a PWM and adding HHO to compensate and you were getting 129mpg :eek:

[Madsceintist]

I tried a few things with the O'2 and other typical things and just couldn't get what I wanted out of the HHO, when I knew I could get more. Read here;
http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=7490&highlight=posts
and;
http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=183

Yes its a lot to read but it'll catch you up !

[Sodbuster]

WOW thanks Madsceintest for the read tons of good info, that surly deserves a sticky.

Post # 12 16 37 39 40 42 is what caught my eye and this is were I need to pay the most attention to. You talked allot about heat under lean conditions, but we have to remember what type of fuel we are using and pump gas at a low octane rating burns hot hot hot. Than we we throw a lean mixture into combustion with HHO now Houston we got a problem just as you stated over and over again. Thats why it is so important to run a fuel that burns cool with a very low flash point and a high octane rating>>>> Alcohol..... than combined with HHO is what I am after.
Have you seen HHO first hand in the event of a melt down, I mean damage to valve train piston cylinder walls ext do to a lean condition ? is this something we must pay close attention two or is this something that just could happen, I mean shoot I have built motors that anything could happen and it usually does but that never has stopped me. Thanks again !!!!

[myoldyourgold]

Read this on the use of Alcohol. Pros and cons. Cost and the requirement of twice the amount of fuel is just some of the cons. One pro is slower burn so adding HHO will bring things closer to normal. Read it and you will possibly get some ideas and more understanding what is involved and how to balance things.

http://www.turbofast.com.au/racefuel2.html

[Sodbuster]

Thanks for the link, I most diffidently no the pros = alcohol for fuel... been doing it for many years. Here is a pic of my last rig that I built, back in 2004 I was studying alternative fuels, this was back when HHO Jar generators were hot and only a few were going with dry cells. There was not a hole lot of information out there and I started playing with alcohol for fuel. Soon after Alcohol came to the mid west in the form of E85 Big OIL and all there scare tactics came up with all this bogus info and suppressed it as much as they could however I new better than that and I started distilling for fuel and that brings me were I am today.

http://<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/gregborke/4673017172/" title="still by Greg Borke (AKA Sodbuster), on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4037/4673017172_23c13d0331.jpg" width="375" height="500" alt="still"></a>

[Madsceintist]

I'm not sure what you got out of all of what I'm working on. The alcohol that I use is strictly for antifreeze purposes. Also, leaning out my fuel didn't seem to bother my temperature in the exhaust much as running HHO in the first place brought my engine temp.(coolant) down at least 15 degrees. I checked this several times just to be sure.
As of yet I haven't seen any damaged caused by the use of HHO directly or indirectly. I have seen it clean very well though.

[Sodbuster]

Hey yea all.... I need some advise, I have got my rig all put together and I am ready to do some bench testing. Were can I buy KOH locally like Lowe's and other retail outlets. We also have a MFA and a farm home supply outlet any suggestion would be great, or do I need to go on line.

Also can you all give some advice as of percentage of KOH to distilled water.

Thanks!!!!

[BioFarmer93]

Sodbuster,
The percentage is easy- 28%... So add 28 grams (1 oz.) KOH to 72 cc/ml/grams of distilled water, or in American measures, 2.43 fluid oz.. You can round that up to 2.5 oz for ease of figuring. So 2oz KOH to 5oz water, 4oz KOH to 10oz. water, 1/2 lb. KOH to 20oz. water... You get the idea.

I searched Farm and Home online for all three names that KOH goes by, and no luck. I Googled MFA and still have no idea what the he11 it is. Check places (local) that sell supplies for soap and biodiesel making. KOH is also known to some folks as caustic potash or potassium hydroxide. I got mine from a local janitorial chemical supply outlet. Good luck!

[myoldyourgold]

NaOH or Lye is available at ACE hardware and Lowe's. It is usually the only thing that is available locally for sure unless you have a soap supply store around. It works really good to clean and condition your reactor. It also works just as good in my opinion all the time. Ace is a little cheaper than Lowe's. Lowe's price is $13.60 for 2 lbs. Ace hardware if I remember is $6 per pound. Maximum strength is 20% by weight.

[Sodbuster]

Ok went to ACE hardware and they had a brand name called Roebic drain cleaner with the main ingredient ( sodium hydroxide) . From what I understand KOH is (potassium hydroxide) or lye.

Well sodium hydroxide Work? or should keep looking for potassium hydroxide. I can jump on line and order it no problem just trying to find it locally.

Myoldyourgold, Is NaOH a brand name at ACE hardware and Lowe's? and what part of the store is it located.

[Sodbuster]

Take a look at this .....http://www.essentialdepot.com/servlet/the-13/2-lbs-Potassium-Hydroxide/Detail?affiliate_no=28

[BioFarmer93]

Ok went to ACE hardware and they had a brand name called Roebic drain cleaner with the main ingredient ( sodium hydroxide) . From what I understand KOH is (potassium hydroxide) or lye.

Well sodium hydroxide Work? or should keep looking for potassium hydroxide. I can jump on line and order it no problem just trying to find it locally.

Myoldyourgold, Is NaOH a brand name at ACE hardware and Lowe's? and what part of the store is it located.

Whoa there Cowboy :eek:
KOH = potassium hydroxide = caustic potash
NaOH = sodium hydroxide = lye = Roebic drain opener ;):D

[myoldyourgold]

NaOH /Sodium hydroxide/ Lye like Gus said, and this is what Ace carries.


http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g215/yenom_1945/aceLye.jpg

[Sodbuster]

Thanks guys!!

Myoldyourgold, That pic that you posted is what I picked up and started reading the label, ingredients were sodium hydroxide = naoh and from what all I have read on this forum Potassium Hydroxide = KOH is what everybody prefers including Greenfuel H20 and HHO connection. So I jumped on line and this is what I purchased
http://www.ebay.com/itm/300560931055?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

If you guys say sodium hydroxide will be fine than I can go back over to ACE and pick up a bottle, sorry for all the back and forth but this is all new to me and I have so much to learn = green horn:)

Do you all think I can bench test my rig without any electrolyte ? and should I have break in time on the cell say for a few hours before I do the install.

[Sodbuster]

Couple pics of the 38 plate big rig

<a href="http://s1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/SODBUSTERS/Mobile%20Uploads/?action=view&amp;current=Photo056.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/SODBUSTERS/Mobile%20Uploads/Photo056.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://s1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/SODBUSTERS/Mobile%20Uploads/?action=view&amp;current=Photo055.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/SODBUSTERS/Mobile%20Uploads/Photo055.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[myoldyourgold]

Soudbuster, there is two schools of thought on this. Both work. I am one how thinks that NaOH is better. The only reason KOH is considered better is because at full strength is has less resistance and can take colder temperatures before freezing. The bad part about it is, it attaches itself to water molecules and if your bubbler / filtering system is not up to par then you get KOH in the engine which eats aluminum like candy. NaOH is more forgiving in this respect but still need a good bubbler /cleaning device or the results are just as bad. KOH is also not available locally in most places.

NaOH has shown me to do a much better job when you first start up your reactor and use it to clean and then to condition the plates. What happens it leaches some of the surface iron and chromium leaving more molybdenum and nickel on the surface and lowers the resistance of the Unipolar plates by quite a bit but not so much (less) on the bipolar plates. It also does not attach itself to the water molecule as KOH does and is available locally everywhere. Lots of old timers that had always recommended KOH have in recent months switched to NaOH. Most of them already used it in the cleaning and conditioning process. Now all of that said the difference is not that big one way or the other except in the cleaning and conditioning process. I can possibly see using KOH in the winter because it can take lower temperatures and has less resistance than NaOH at full strength but that would be the only time.

[Sodbuster]

Thank yea myoldyourgold for your explanation, back to ACE hardware I go :)

[Sodbuster]

Bench test first run: 5 table spoons KOH to 1 gallon water, 13.8 volts running for about 20 minutes pulling 15 amps = 1 liter at 1 minute.


Bench test second run: 7 table spoons KOH to 1 gallon water, 13.8 volts running for 20 minutes pulling 15 amp = 1 liter at 45 seconds.

Ran into a issue with my PWM fan stopped working and had to quite.

Do you all think I need to keep increasing KOH ??

[Sodbuster]

Hey guys the solenoid on this unit is hot to the touch, do they run this hot?

<a href="http://s1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/SODBUSTERS/Mobile%20Uploads/?action=view&amp;current=Photo059.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/SODBUSTERS/Mobile%20Uploads/Photo059.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[delvis11]

I think you should stick with the manufactures specs. They are 8 to 10 teaspoons of KOH per 2 liters of distilled water.
The relays run hot but I haven't had one fail yet.

Nice test setup. It looks great. It's okay to run the pwm up to 30 amps with out the fan working.

Thanks for linking me to your thread.

[BioFarmer93]

Well, you have a couple of things going on here.. First, there is a lot of resistance being created by that weakazz electrolyte your using ;) Maybe you have a specific reason for that, I don't know, but full strength KOH electrolyte is 2lb. of KOH to a gallon of distilled water. Needless to say, your production will go up considerably. Next thing, did you ask for a continuous duty rated solenoid? If so, what amperage is it rated at? That could be the biggest part of the problem right there.. Are any of the wires getting warmer than seems appropriate? (could you hold them all day without getting a blister?) If any are more than just barely warm, they need to be replaced with a heavier gauge. You are getting this effect at only 15A @ 13.8V, that's only 207 watts. Check out those things I mentioned, because that really shouldn't be happening...

[Sodbuster]

Holly smokes you guys are tough :) got to remember I'm a green horn when it comes to HHO so I have to take everybody's input and go from there not knowing really what the end result will be. Thats why I'm doing bench testing getting familiar with HHO and reporting my results and your feed back is very much operated = Thanks !!!!

In my mind it feels more like I am builing a battery not a dry cell = :0 ...so my train of thought needs to be inverted.

Ok Delvis going to go much higher on KOH as recommended. Wires are not warm and cool to the touch, just the relay is getting hot.

Bio, yes sir going to increase week azz electrolyte :) having so many different suggestions on electrolyte and trying to stay in the manufactures requirements and me being green OMG ....but I'm learning fast brother.

continuous duty rated solenoid, I have no Idea and I cant find paper work stating it is nor ....can I find what it is rated at my guess it should be I'm sure my supplier would no better than to put a weak azz :) solenoid on a cell that is going to pull mega AMPS. However you are so right that solenoid needs to be rated or be able to run continuous duty or be capable to do so. I had this problem long time ago On a motor home that was running multiple battery's and had a solenoid just like this one and it to got very hot but never burned up or shorted out.

None of the wires are getting hot all are cool to the touch just the solenoid is getting hot = very hot to the touch.

[Sodbuster]

Wait a minute Delvis11 I no who you are :) Thanks... and yes sir I will do that.

OK guys I have a Idea on this solenoid and need your input. Here is a pic of a 12 volt winch solenoid of one of my 4wheelers, these little guys can handle 600 amps all day long no problem, matter fact when I'm plowing snow in the winter my solenoid runs for hours never even getting warm to the touch. These solenoid`s are built to be abused.... nothing can kill them except guys like us :) take a look.

<a href="http://s1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/SODBUSTERS/Mobile%20Uploads/?action=view&amp;current=Photo060.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/SODBUSTERS/Mobile%20Uploads/Photo060.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Here is a link were I buy my winches from and they sell these solenoids seperate.http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATV-Winch-Contactor-Solenoid-2000-3000lb-VIPER-Series-2-/390374077296?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5ae41bb370&vxp=mtr

[Shane Jackson]

Im going to butt in here and give you a little advice. Keep adding the KOH a tbs at a time and run tests. This way you can see where you cell needs to be..... You will hit max MMW at less than 28% KOH.

[Sodbuster]

Thanks Shane for your advise but could you explain to me what this mean in detail ( You will hit max MMW at less than 28% KOH ). What does MMW mean ? this is so new to me guys so remember when you give me advise go in to detail like your talking to a 1 st grader at his first day at school :o

I no my way around volt/ohms meters and making Conversion and basic Calculations, I will get there just need a little help getting started.

[Shane Jackson]

MMW is the "industry" standard of measuring the cells efficiency. The formula is milliliters per minute / (amps * volts) . or in your last post

(1000 / 45 * 60) / (15 * 13.8) = 6.44MMW

Now you can use that number to judge changes to your cell. If you increase the amount of KOH your MMW will go up or down. Use this for tests that you are taking right then.

There is a lot of stuff that effects the MMW reading and comparing a MMW of your cell to a MMW of any other cell on the net is useless. You will see all kinds of numbers posted and they really don't mean much unless you can verify the data yourself.

[myoldyourgold]

Any type of comparison between reactors using MMW, watts per liter, or % of Faraday can all be misleading based on how you measure the LPM and how much moisture is in the HHO. The methods used by most are inaccurate at best so comparing between the results of others is somewhat useless. It should be used to compare with yourself when making changes to your system and you must be consistent in how you measure. Just remember that moisture takes up a lot of space compared to gas so your results could just be showing more moisture instead of more gas output unless you are using a dryer to remove the moisture. What you think is an improvement might be just the opposite with just more moisture being created and no more or less gas.

[Darrell]

Any type of comparison between reactors using MMW, watts per liter, or % of Faraday can all be misleading based on how you measure the LPM and how much moisture is in the HHO. The methods used by most are inaccurate at best so comparing between the results of others is somewhat useless. It should be used to compare with yourself when making changes to your system and you must be consistent in how you measure. Just remember that moisture takes up a lot of space compared to gas so your results could just be showing more moisture instead of more gas output unless you are using a dryer to remove the moisture. What you think is an improvement might be just the opposite with just more moisture being created and no more or less gas.

It's funny that we still compare our production these days with Faraday's law. The reason I say this is becuase we use so many things like sand blasting and weld-on when building reactors and probably shouldn't be compared to basic parameters or rules. Nice to see how far we have come though. "D"

[Sodbuster]

Has anybody ever tried using this as a scrubber/dryer.

<a href="http://s1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/SODBUSTERS/Mobile%20Uploads/?action=view&amp;current=Photo061.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/SODBUSTERS/Mobile%20Uploads/Photo061.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[BioFarmer93]

Sodbuster, I don't really know anything about activated charcoal as an absorbent/desiccant- I always thought it was more a filtering media, but I learn several new things every day (and forget half a dozen others). Personally I think it would work pretty well from the stand point of scrubbing wet gas, I just don't know if it would actually take out the moisture like a dedicated desiccant would... Anyway, this is the stuff I use- https://secure.drierite.com/catalog3/page4b.cfm

[aceras624]

the carbon wont work nearly as well as the desicant.

Bio what do you think about using the regular desicant and then a layer of of indicating desicant on top of that? the reg stuff seems way less expensive. also, what is "4 mesh" "8 mesh"??

[BioFarmer93]

the carbon wont work nearly as well as the desicant.

Bio what do you think about using the regular desicant and then a layer of of indicating desicant on top of that? the reg stuff seems way less expensive. also, what is "4 mesh" "8 mesh"??

Ace,
The mesh size refers to the size of the little chunks of desiccant that fall through a vibrating set of screens, one over the other that that get finer and finer as you go lower. No.1 mesh is huge chunky stuff as big as the end of your little finger, no.8 is a little smaller than a tic-tac.

You must have read my mind last night about combining the indicating with the regular and the cost of each- the way it hit me was to mix them together so that you could track the progression up the tube by which ones had turned pink and which ones were still blue.

[aceras624]

Ace,
The mesh size refers to the size of the little chunks of desiccant that fall through a vibrating set of screens, one over the other that that get finer and finer as you go lower. No.1 mesh is huge chunky stuff as big as the end of your little finger, no.8 is a little smaller than a tic-tac.

You must have read my mind last night about combining the indicating with the regular and the cost of each- the way it hit me was to mix them together so that you could track the progression up the tube by which ones had turned pink and which ones were still blue.

I was wondering that myself, whether it would be better to mix them or just put a layer on top. they can both be regenerated right? Thanks for the mesh size :D

and now I cant access the link?!?!? WTF?!?!?

[aceras624]

So I just bought some dessicant from the link below. about 50 bucks for 1lb 4 mesh indicating dessicant, 5 lbs non indicating 4 mesh dessicant. I was gonna go finer but 8 mesh is considerably more expensive

http://www.gogenlab.com/

[Shane Jackson]

http://www.mcmaster.com/#desiccants/=gpkira

Bulk Desiccants

[BioFarmer93]

I was wondering that myself, whether it would be better to mix them or just put a layer on top. they can both be regenerated right? Thanks for the mesh size :D

and now I cant access the link?!?!? WTF?!?!?

I just happened to notice when I tried to re-access the link that it expired on the 13th and is up for renewal.

[Sodbuster]

Here is the latest guys on the dry cell

Ok check it out >> 10 tsp of KOH per 2 liters



13.5 volts ... 25 amps = 1LPM at 29 seconds... not to shabby :)



Also ran this new wench solenoid for about 1 HR at different amps. The solenoid got very hot to the touch but never failed, I think it is going to be one of those deals were we need to run this solenoid to it burns up, and if it don't than I believe these solenoids will do what we need them to do.

[Sodbuster]

Ok folks now If you all would give me some input on a Idea I have on a box that will be mounted in the back of my pick up that will hold the dry cell and all the components.

Here is my Idea: I want to build a box out of diamond plate, I'm thinking 32 inches high .... 16 inches wide about 12 inches deep with a door on the front.
I'm thinking of a deep cell 12V battery on the bottom, than the dry cell mounted above the battery mounted to the inside of the box. Than the water tank mounted to one side of the box ( on the inside) and the bubbler/stripper on the other. I'm thinking of a deep cell battery in the box that way we just need to run charging wires from the alternator to the auxiliary battery and the wires running the cell will be much shorter and they won't have to pull all those amps through several feet of wire. Whats you take on this?

Also I was thinking of a tool box side locker may do the trick... but something like this cant be found in diamond plate nor can I find one in stainless steel, just don`t want this box to rust. So whats your thoughts?? and if you got a suggestion or a link to were I can purchase a box already to go.

Now I already have the diamond plate to build a box however I don't have the resources like a breaker/bender machine nor can I weld aluminum so it well be farmed out to a builder that can do the job, witch is no problem but labor is high.... that Leads me back to buying a box already to go. Take a look >>>
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00961918000P?mv=rr

[myoldyourgold]

I see one problem with this setup and that is you might not have enough room (height)to get the reservoir high enough to keep the reactor full. If the reservoir is to low you could even have HHO coming out the input port especially at startup. I also do not see the difference of having heavy wire coming to the battery instead of to the reactor. In order to charge the battery you are going to need the heavy wire so all you have done is add another battery and another circuit / battery to maintain, complicating things a bit more.

[Shane Jackson]

Just make sure the KOH don't drip on the battery. One could argue that the extra battery isn't needed.... I understand why you are putting it there... If it were me I would go with a battery bank that was big enough to run the system for 30min to 1hr and charge it via shore power. That way you are not putting the increase drag on the alternator.... but that is just me.

[BioFarmer93]

Just make sure the KOH don't drip on the battery. One could argue that the extra battery isn't needed.... I understand why you are putting it there... If it were me I would go with a battery bank that was big enough to run the system for 30min to 1hr and charge it via shore power. That way you are not putting the increase drag on the alternator.... but that is just me.

Shane,
I stopped myself half a dozen times from opening up that particular can o' worms...

[Shane Jackson]

Shane,
I stopped myself half a dozen times from opening up that particular can o' worms...
What worms are in the can?

[Sodbuster]

Thanks guys for your input.

MyOld.... Shane, I am going to run 4 gauge welding wire on everything + @ - so if I don't run a second battery I will still be utilizing 4 gauge. Now this is just my theory and I do understand your comment. If I run a second battery the battery Will be mounted inches from the cell instead of several feet were the truck battery is now. So pulling AMPS will be easer via a shorter wire, however the PWM will be mounted in the cab and that just throws that theory out the window because I still need to go from the battery in bed to the PWM in the cab and back to the cell..... so I guess in theory were still pulling amps through many feet of wire. 4 gauge wire will also be ran from the the battery under the hood weather or not I utilize a second battery or not, sOOOO yea MyOld your theory makes perfect sense.

I have a metal storage locker bought ( ebay special ) 40' H 17' W 15' deep.
The dry cell and components will be mounted inside and right now my stand is 34' high with no flow problem that leaves me ruffly 6 inches of room for a battery if we go that rout. Plans are to powder coat the locker with a big ball of swiss cheese rotating on top == now were did I get that idea = Bio :)

Whats your take on a Optima "Deep cell" battery with 750 CCA with AGM advanced spiralcell technology.

[BioFarmer93]

What worms are in the can?

None that I wouldn't fish with myself..;):cool:

On edit; I've been teasing myself with the idea for quite a while because I have about 60 5-cell 80 A/h flooded NiCd storage batteries that are looking for employment. Each cell is nominally 1.2V, so the situation begs for a custom voltage battery bank to be fabricated. Then maybe a couple big solar panels at cab height on a frame over the truck bed to keep them charged and provide some shade for the dogs. HHhmmm...

[Sodbuster]

Hey yea all ..... any of you folks ever use foam remover for like a spa or hot tube? I am having some foam issues in the supply tank, not much but it is enough to make me wonder if I am doing something wrong or the KOH may be the problem = whats your thoughts.... Thanks!!

[myoldyourgold]

I have never had any problem with foam. I think that it has to do with some kind of oily contamination. You are basically making soap. You need to flush out the system very well and and use a new batch of electrolyte. Distilled water that has not be sitting in a plastic container for ever. The contamination can be in the water, gaskets, plates, plumbing etc. This is one reason to use gloves in handling your plates and gaskets when putting them together after making sure everything is very clean. Even the oil on your hands can cause this. I little oil goes a long way in this case.

[Sodbuster]

Ok thanks :) flush and fill are on my list today.... Thanks :)

Also would you recommend running dual bubbler/ strippers after generating HHo before combustion.

Also do you think of not returning HHO through supply ( via the bottom of the supply tank) that has been generated, rather have the HHO exit the cell into the bubbler than into combustion, my thoughts are after HHO generation, why do we need to go back up through the supply tank and saturate HHO with more electrolysis. So maybe after HHO is generated plum the outlet of the cell to the top of the tank were it can dump any moister back into the supply tank than rout to the bubbler. = hope this makes since !

[myoldyourgold]

So maybe after HHO is generated plum the outlet of the cell to the top of the tank were it can dump any moister back into the supply tank than rout to the bubbler. = hope this makes since !

That will do the job. Add some boric acid into your bubbler water and you will be very safe.

[Sodbuster]

Flushed and filled tank and bubbler = no foam :)

Ok cool... My OLd, I will make the adjustment ... Thanks

WOW check this out, just around town today not even ten miles of driving very light foot feed I bet I sucked a 1/4 tank of gas :0 he he he .. now I now the computer is seeing a extreeeeemE "lean condition" and throwing all kinds of fuel to compensate. Time to tune = map sensor enhancer!!

Also I still want to try to trim the fuel pump via a PWM. I did try a couple different rheostats but all I did was smoke em :) any Ideas ??????? link me, link me, please to what I need THANKS GUYS !!!!

[Sodbuster]

Here are a few pics of the nozzle I put together, 3/8 copper pipe sweated together and at the end of the nozzle it reduces down to 1/8. Than at the very end it is soldered closed and drilled to .089

My theory is to hold back HHO and build some mild pressure in the bubbler and supply tank, this also holds hho in the cell for a tad bit longer, this seems to work well ... kinda like a air tank holding some pressure and releasing it out via a blow nozzle. Example::: If a air tank is holding very little pressure and than released via say a 1/2 inch hose the air is going to expel quickly NOW put a nozzel on the end of the hose and you now have some pressure behind it. From what I am seeing the bubbler is bubbling like crazy after this mod and the supply line running from the tank to the cell is clear ( not seeing any hho back flushing into the supply tank). If this becomes a issue I can just drill the hole larger but I'm thinking maybe to go even smaller taking note on water supply to the cell and watching for back bubbling via the supply line.

http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/SODBUSTERS/Mobile%20Uploads/Photo067.jpg
<a href="http://s1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/SODBUSTERS/Mobile%20Uploads/?action=view&amp;current=Photo066.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/SODBUSTERS/Mobile%20Uploads/Photo066.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
<a href="http://s1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/SODBUSTERS/Mobile%20Uploads/?action=view&amp;current=Photo065.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/SODBUSTERS/Mobile%20Uploads/Photo065.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
<a href="http://s1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/SODBUSTERS/Mobile%20Uploads/?action=view&amp;current=Photo068.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/SODBUSTERS/Mobile%20Uploads/Photo068.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[Stevo]

I usually use a separate reservoir for this sort of situation. This causes bubbles to pop and prevents electrolyte from getting into the bubbler/scrubber.

[Stevo]

Here are a few pics of the nozzle I put together, 3/8 copper pipe sweated together and at the end of the nozzle it reduces down to 1/8. Than at the very end it is soldered closed and drilled to .089



Nice job on the delivery tube. Have you tried copper welding tips?

[Sodbuster]

Nice job on the delivery tube. Have you tried copper welding tips?

Yea I thought about a welding tip after I already built the delivery tube. I'm going to order a couple from Harbor freight I still want to build a torch and I want to try your suggestion.

[myoldyourgold]

Excellent design on your delivery tube. As far as pressure and the size of the tip is concerned I suggest you put a stainless steel pressure gauge on the reservoir for testing purposes. Pressure to a point is a very good thing because it helps keep the bubbles in the reactor small. Restricting the flow of HHO using metal has been reported to negatively effect the quality of gas. By that I mean you want as little contact with metal as possible and limit the time it is in contact with it before it is mixed with air. You can not avoid the intake manifold but only very little makes contact after it is mixed with the incoming air. This is a small point but all the small things add up. The difference is not that much but when combined with everything else it makes a difference. The effect is less if the metal is not grounded to the chassis and just passes through not being restricted. I prefer to build pressure by using a finer diffuser in the bubbler. You accomplish more by doing that. Fine bubbles from a diffuser makes for cleaner gas and of course creates the back pressure to keep bubbles in the reactor smaller. Remember the flashback arrestor and friction in the tubes creates back pressure too.

[Sodbuster]

Well crap .... Let me ask you this MyOld the delivery line that is running from the back of my pick up to the throttle body is 3/8 pex. There are 3 four foot lengths of pex, connecting the pex are brass connectors. So from the cell to were it dumps into the throttle body there are a total of three brass connectors and than the brass nozzle. So do I ditch this concept and go with all plastic from cell all the way forward and than remove about four inches of the nozzle and make the nozzle as short as possible?

Also the bubbler /stripper after the cell does have a diffuser so I am good there. There is also High Flow HHO Flashback Arrestor ( the one with all the green balls inside) installed right before it dumps into the throttle body.

What would be a good pressure to hold back in the system, are we talking about 2 pounds or so?

Thanks guys for all the help = im learning :)

[myoldyourgold]

If I were you I would run it like it is but remember when doing it again and if you want to split hairs and get the max keep it all plastic/nylon. The difference is small. Shortening the nozzle would be helpful and would not be to much work. Just make sure none of the metal parts are grounded. I am assuming that is plastic the nozzle is screwed into.

2 to 4 pounds is good. If it is more than that it will require some additional safety stuff.

[abssystems]

being no expert on what you have or HHO in general
a few things you may want to consider before going all that way to hook up a pwm to your pump
one that fuel pump most likely doesn't draw that much in amps
alot pumps draw off a 15 to 20 amp circut
as a simple test to your theary
why can't you simple hook a "POT" into line on your fuel pump circut at the pump side of the fuse or relay and monitor it with a DVOM thus turn the power/voltage down while watching the pressure?
thus "IMHO" i would suspect it will still give you 60 psi at say 5 amps /13.4 volts as it would at 10 amps 13.4volts
i have never tested a wave pattern on a fuel pump so i'm not sure on this but it would seem likely to me.
however reducing the volatge to that pump via wattage control should slow the pump down for a test to see if it will do what you want
trying the simple "pot" idea above should prove out that ?

another thing to consider and the biggy in my mind is this
your injectors need x pressure to atomize the fuel correctly thus if you reduce the fuel pressure to much your going to get dripps of fuel off the injector and thats not going to be productive to your goal is it?
thus you may not be able to cut the pressure far enought down without puddling to get where it make enough differance to your goal.

so yes i think you can limit some fuel via the way your thinking and make it adjustable from inside the cab but i would use caution on how much before you start bad side affects like premature pump failure and lack of fuel atomization

just my two cents
be curious how you make out
by the way I'm testing a 31 plate cell in a 2.3 liter LOL

[Sodbuster]

MY Old= Shortening the nozzle would be helpful and would not be to much work. Just make sure none of the metal parts are grounded. I am assuming that is plastic the nozzle is screwed into.

Good point and thanks for the tip: Yes the nozzle is " a pressure fit" into the top of the throttle body witch is plastic, however the bracket that holds the nozzle in place is bolted to the top of the throttle body that is metal. So the nozzle is grounded so i need to ditch this bracket and come up with another plan to hold the nozzle in place..... Thanks.... also I'm going to ditch all the brass connections and take your advise and go plastic all the way from start to finish.

abssystems: I'm not following you as far as this devise (pot) I get what you are saying but the abbreviation has thrown my mind into open loop :)
I have done several searches on pot but I keep coming up with a green leafy plant when smoked or ingested causes hallucinations, and I get enough that just trying to figure this out ;) I'm just kidding man, and I understand what your trying to tell me just not up on abbreviations.

[Sodbuster]

abssystems,

Is this what you are talking about.... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cosmos-Potentiometer-RV30YN20S-B104-96DC-321-pot-resistor-carbon-RV30YN-20S-100K-/360432219574?pt=BI_Control_Systems_PLCs&hash=item53eb6f35b6

[abssystems]

@ sodbuster

"pot " is basically a rheostat potentiometer differant types will acomplish differant results
i would think if you have tried ones and they " burnt up" your using under rated ones
many of the ones you see are only rated for 2 - 6 amps and i suspect your fuel pump to be drawing 15 to 20 amps max?
what is the fuse that protects it rated for?
that will give you a clue how heavy amp load it will draw so you can use a rheostat type that will handle the load
Mind you using a rheostat temp wired into that circut is going to cut voltage/wattage not amp draw
so I wouldn't leave it on for any longer than to test fuel pressure results
as reducing the voltage to your pump may make it run hotter and increase the draw
install a fuse rated just below your fuel pump rated fuse between the pump and the testing rheostat to protect the pump while testing this out


i would suggest looking at ones that work for music amps/ guitars?
or even maybe 115 volt 20 amp for testing your theory

[Sodbuster]

Abssystems, Would a 115 volt AC dimmer switch work as a Rheostat potentiometer say for home use? I gave that try and for some crazy reason it would not flow any DC current, could not get it to work at all. So I came to a conclusion that a AC Rheostat will not work on DC current... Don`t no :confused:.... Anyways yea I understand were your coming from, the pump is on a 20 amp fuse and a relay. Going to put a AMP meter across the + wire while the truck is running and see what kinda amps it pulls.

Hey on your 31 plate Cell... Abssystems, who manufactures it or did you build it yourself ?

[Madsceintist]

Abssystems, Would a 115 volt AC dimmer switch work as a Rheostat potentiometer say for home use? I gave that try and for some crazy reason it would not flow any DC current, could not get it to work at all. So I came to a conclusion that a AC Rheostat will not work on DC current... Don`t no :confused:.... Anyways yea I understand were your coming from, the pump is on a 20 amp fuse and a relay. Going to put a AMP meter across the + wire while the truck is running and see what kinda amps it pulls.

Hey on your 31 plate Cell... Abssystems, who manufactures it or did you build it yourself ?

Been there done that. Too high of an amperage pull, it shorts them out in a second.


You'd be better off with a 30 amp fuse and a 30 amp circuit breaker. Also, without an amp meter I was producing less then with .?! so you would and do need an amp meter.

If you use a relay use one that's rated for continuous duty such as for a fuel pump or fan. It will stay cooler and not burn up.

[delvis11]

I've never tried putting a pot on the fuel pump system but what about using a motor speed controller. It's made for heavy loads and has a adjustable duty cycle. It may do the job, Again I have never tried this.

[Sodbuster]

Sup Guys,

OK what I tried was using my PWM to control the fuel pump and it worked, wires stayed cool and I was able to very the amps to the pump and in turn lower pump pressure. However I could only go down to 10 amp`s or so and I needed to go even further.... motor started to run a tad bit ruff so I no I was getting close to were I wanted to be. So I think what i need is another PWM, one that will get down around 5 amp`s to were it will kill the motor than I can go up from there by balancing fuel and HHO = think were on to something :)

My Old: I ditched the pex delivery line and the copper nozzle and went all plastic with a nylon nozzle, turned out perfect.... so I took your advise :)

Take a look: first pic is the nozzle
<a href="http://s1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/SODBUSTERS/Mobile%20Uploads/?action=view&amp;current=Photo080.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/SODBUSTERS/Mobile%20Uploads/Photo080.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Next pic is the nozel instaled inside of throttle body cover.
<a href="http://s1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/SODBUSTERS/Mobile%20Uploads/?action=view&amp;current=Photo082.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/SODBUSTERS/Mobile%20Uploads/Photo082.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[abssystems]

@ Sodbuster
as already stated a light dimmer will not work as they work a bit differant
and most are only rated for MAX peek load of 15 amp and the constant load is much lower
of course they do make heavier duty
but you have already done your test to find out you can control and get lower pump pressure
but as I suspected it didn't do much at 10 amps

seeing you already tried your PWM and it showed the test that you can turn down your pump to at least 10 amps and get some sort of desired result

my suggestion follows along with the other posters idea of a DC motor speed controler being able to help you out

the first thing that comes to mind would be a " tread mill motor speed control" they are pretty easy to aquire, low cost and will handle the amps you will need.
believe it or not most tread mill motors are actually DC
I wont bore you with why they use DC motors and convert AC from the wall to run them but they are usually DC becasue the basic is that DC motors produce more Tourque

look around on ebay or at your local thrift store like salvation army store and you may not only find the control but a neat drive motor

this type of drive motor are well known for home built wind power stations
i think that will get you on track to a DC control device that will back your fuel pump motor down to stand still if desired
affixing a good quality relay and fuse to load side will help you save your pump should your test go astray:)

[Sodbuster]

ABS,

Is this what you are talking about..... http://www.ebay.com/itm/MC-30-Used-Treadmill-Variable-Speed-Motor-Control-/170810707790?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27c51c8f4e

Let me ask you this, not that I am doubting you because I am taking your advise and if you say a treadmill speed motor controller will do the job than thats what we will try next but I need to ask a question here just future thinking.

On a Constant Current PWM would this not have more control from voltage run away and have more control from the pump trying to pull to many amps ?

[abssystems]

@ Sodbuster

HUM why would you have amp runaway with a fuel pump motor?

runaway happens in a cell because of several factors the way I understand it
a strong elyte will drag amps with heat
once heat gets to a point it will draw more amps as the cunductivity increases therefor the way I understand we may need to either limit the amps via PWM
(or reduce the elyte to lower the draw)
I won't get to involved with square wave patterns here but PWM
"Pulse width" controls On time/ off time amps and in some units the " hertz" of frequency at which that occurs

bascially PWM are used often with electric opperations that build up heat and therfore keep them from over heating and drawing more amps from that heat build up

in a nut shell heat build up draws more amps until it reaches a point then the heat helps in conducitivity and then becomes run away amps

thus the basic function of a PWM be it for a cell or anything that draws high amps and has ability to create heat/draw on the circut doing so is to limit the amount of amps that circuit can draw

so with that covered why would a fuel pump circuit have the ability to run away on amps?
basically your turning down the power it wants naturally?
to limit its production

Now i guess the big question is How far do you desire to turn it down?
becasue at some point the pump may actually get hotter by limiting the amperage to it
as under rating a electric flow can produce more heat
ther is kind of a magic line of how far one can go in reducing currant flow before it causes adverse affects on the load being controled

so in answer to the question would a PWM work?
sure i think it would
but if i had a choice i think i would rather send constant lower volatge to a DC motor of that type, than limit the ON time /Off time to it
basically with a PWM what you would be doing is turning your fuel pump on and off at high speeds
" you should be able to see the on time/ off time pulse and width by watching your cell work with PWM , with a DVOM hooked in line to it"

i would think this would wear out your pump faster than just reducing the currant/volatge flow to it?
In theory anyway

Now for a bit of caution
I would not even play with either way of doing so on a in the tank mounted pump
because if by some reason it does build up high heat from being limited in either case PWM or Currant control
i would not desire make my fuel tank a bomb
if your pump is rail mounted then i would do some testing and check the temp of it as you limit it down

please keep in mind you wanting to take a devise designed to do one thing at said amps draw and change its behavior
this is called experimenting?
to limit the bad results that could happen one needs to be safe in testing:)
thus keeping a fuse on the "LOAD" side will reduce risk of bad stuff happening

[abssystems]

@ Sodbuster
I'm sorry got carried away in circuit flow and forgot all about the link you provided
yes that is a DC motor control
but i would "not" buy that type as that one was running a gear drive DC motor and the amperage would be to low for you and it will burn up

look for control units that run a DIRECT drive DC motor

[Sodbuster]

Thanks for the book ABS :) = file ... save as, future reference.

[Sodbuster]

Ok guys found this info on another fourm, whats your take on it.

Since originally starting this Forum I have been gathering information I have found on the internet to help me with my own Hydrogen journey and placing it here for others to take advantage of.

There has always been two schools of thought regarding the use of an EFIE, I always have been firmly of the belief that anything different to controlling the voltage output of the O2 sensor was sheer quackery. Many people using HHO said they only need to remove the battery terminal to get the results, but no one ever offered a good reason as to why they did this.

My latest research with GM & Ford has shown that the Fuel computer can be forced to establish a new baseline.
Try the following before purchasing an EFIE - This may be all you need to do - you can always get one later if needed.

When you start up your engine, the computer has a stored memory as to the correct fuel air ratio which is influenced up or down with the O2, MAP sensors etc.

If all your sensors are in good condition and you have a clean air filter you can get your computer to establish a new HHO baseline without using an EFIE.

This knocked me for a six, I thought previously that the EFIE industry would not have developed if it was this simple.

To force your computer to establish a new baseline O2 reading, do the following:

•Disconnect your Negative battery terminal
•Turn on every light you can
•Leave battery disconnected for a minimum15 minutes (this allows any capacitive charge in your computer to dissipate)
•Make sure your HHO Gen is turned on
•Turn off all lights and make sure your ignition is off etc
•Reconnect the negative battery terminal
•Start engine and leave it idle for 5 to 10 minutes

Because you have now cleared any stored Air / Fuel ratio settings in the computer, it will now try to establish a new baseline by recording the settings of all sensors as if for the first time. There will be a moment the engine seems to flutter as this takes place.

With your O2 sensor, if there is any variation to the O2 levels in the exhaust from this point on you will have the correct air/fuel ratio adjustment.

To support this statement, I offer you supportive information from two sources:
•Ford Fuel Injection . com - Click on the sensor picture of interest to read more about that particular sensor http://www.fordfuelinjection.com/?p=10
•GM Electronics - This information I have posted in this forum. You have to click on the attached pictures to be able to read them http://reduceyourfuelbill.com.au/forum/index.php?topic=119.0

If after doing this you still do not get the savings you are after, then get an EFIE

If any EFIE supporters or manufacturers wish to comment either way on this, please post away.My quetion is.... Does not the ECM have a pre set value spec or its own "hard base line" to base its value on and make adjustments and go from there? whats going to keep the ECM from seeing a lean condition and add more fuel....

[Weapon_R]

Ok guys found this info on another fourm, whats your take on it.

Since originally starting this Forum I have been gathering information I have found on the internet to help me with my own Hydrogen journey and placing it here for others to take advantage of.

There has always been two schools of thought regarding the use of an EFIE, I always have been firmly of the belief that anything different to controlling the voltage output of the O2 sensor was sheer quackery. Many people using HHO said they only need to remove the battery terminal to get the results, but no one ever offered a good reason as to why they did this.

My latest research with GM & Ford has shown that the Fuel computer can be forced to establish a new baseline.
Try the following before purchasing an EFIE - This may be all you need to do - you can always get one later if needed.

When you start up your engine, the computer has a stored memory as to the correct fuel air ratio which is influenced up or down with the O2, MAP sensors etc.

If all your sensors are in good condition and you have a clean air filter you can get your computer to establish a new HHO baseline without using an EFIE.

This knocked me for a six, I thought previously that the EFIE industry would not have developed if it was this simple.

To force your computer to establish a new baseline O2 reading, do the following:

•Disconnect your Negative battery terminal
•Turn on every light you can
•Leave battery disconnected for a minimum15 minutes (this allows any capacitive charge in your computer to dissipate)
•Make sure your HHO Gen is turned on
•Turn off all lights and make sure your ignition is off etc
•Reconnect the negative battery terminal
•Start engine and leave it idle for 5 to 10 minutes

Because you have now cleared any stored Air / Fuel ratio settings in the computer, it will now try to establish a new baseline by recording the settings of all sensors as if for the first time. There will be a moment the engine seems to flutter as this takes place.

With your O2 sensor, if there is any variation to the O2 levels in the exhaust from this point on you will have the correct air/fuel ratio adjustment.

To support this statement, I offer you supportive information from two sources:
•Ford Fuel Injection . com - Click on the sensor picture of interest to read more about that particular sensor http://www.fordfuelinjection.com/?p=10
•GM Electronics - This information I have posted in this forum. You have to click on the attached pictures to be able to read them http://reduceyourfuelbill.com.au/forum/index.php?topic=119.0

If after doing this you still do not get the savings you are after, then get an EFIE

If any EFIE supporters or manufacturers wish to comment either way on this, please post away.My quetion is.... Does not the ECM have a pre set value spec or its own "hard base line" to base its value on and make adjustments and go from there? whats going to keep the ECM from seeing a lean condition and add more fuel....

Make sense to me. I am doing some work on a system using the same principle. I do believe that for this to work at least the o2 sensors are working properly. I could be wrong however.
I recently got my car fuel injected car from the garage. It was there for over six months. When it came back the first fews days i had water coming from the tailpipe and it seemed to burn gas very well. After those few days it went back to its old self drinking gas like crazy. I suspect a faulty 02 sensor. Recently took voltage measurements of the old one and will compare with a new unit to confirm.

[myoldyourgold]

I am not an expert on computers or anything for that matter. LOL I do have some experience though that might help. There are two basic types of setups. One using very low volumes of HHO, resetting the computer and letting the chips fall where the computer directs. This in some cases but not all, gives you a 2 to 4 mile per gallon increase but not in every case and over time in my experience starts dropping off and ends up worse than not running HHO in most cases. This requires you to reset the computer weekly or more or less often depending on your driving. Again it varies by huge amounts.

The other method is to use an EFIE and try and make the computer stay on the lean side of things and inject enough HHO to keep the engine cool. This can result in some very high gains on some vehicles but is also not consistent because of a huge number of variables. The biggest reason is if you are just treating the O2 sensor which most EFIE's do, the computer finally figures out that the information it is getting from the O2 sensor does not match the other information it is collecting. Because we are injecting a constant volume of HHO and not running at a constant rpm or load, things are not always in an ideal spot and the computer can sense this and does what it can to bring things to what it thinks is normal. To help prevent this you really need to treat all the sensors in a way that prevents these problems and keeps everything looking normal more often than not within the perimeters that the computer has built into it. The best you can do, is to be on the lean side of things that is allowed by the computer which because of your manipulation of the sensors might be much leaner.

I am in the process of testing a new controller and when completed will report how things are working. The initial tests are very encouraging but only more testing with more run time on a number of vehicles will confirm what I am seeing so far. One thing that is different is the system must be able to hold a 4 pound HHO charge for a few minutes. If there are any leaks in the system it is not as efficient. Pressure balance is more complex because of space limitations but have so far got it to work in a vehicle that is not so congested as some. I will write this all up when finished and it should be helpful to everyone.

In my opinion in order to get large gains you must cut back the fuel/or increase the air (increased turbo pressure) and increase HHO to a corresponding ratio to maintain the correct temperatures and not have a loss of HP. A lean burning engine is possible with the right amount HHO that does not over heat and maintains its HP. The real difficult thing is some HHO has very low energy and some has much higher energy. So just this one variable makes such a big difference that you can almost though out LPM as a measure or gauge as to how to tune. Have fun and let us know how thing go.

[Sodbuster]

Thanks guys for your input!!!

MYOLD.... Dude, you are the one to watch FO SHO :) keep us posted on your tuning devise and if you need a Ginny pig :)

Weapon R .... I gave this base line tune a shot today and I got nothing. Matter fact once again I went through 1/4 tank of fuel in less than 10 miles. This base line tune system does work and the computer will in fact re learn itself "BUT" just as soon as it figured out just how lean I am with HHO it started dumping fuel.

[Weapon_R]

Sodbuster looks like we have our work cut out for us.:)
myoldyourgold keep us posted.

[abssystems]

Now your in my field of expertiese:)

first off I have close to 30 years as a A tech with ford motor as a shop forman I was around when we went to fuel injection Pcm controled
anyway it is true you can errase the (KAM) keep alive memory in a pcm
and a much faster way to do so is removing the positive battery cable and ground it out trust me this wil wipe out all memory in every processor on your car including the radio, why wait for the headlights to drain them, chuckles

Myold is correct in the fact small correction will be overcome with this process however your pcm is goign to relearn and go righ back to programed in (maps)
this is why if you produce little gas you may see a change that stays or you may get worse and worse milage as time passes
basically every 40 ( drive cycles) your computor " take stock of itself" per say
thus if you pop a check engine light and the condition doesnt occure again for 40 drive cycles it will turn the light off by itself
this is why after time the milage gets worse
so yes it is true the pcm can be cleared of stored data and then get better milage but i assure you if your making any quanity of good gas it wil be short lived milage gains
this is why flash chips exist they provide new data for the (maps) for the Pcm
when you bring you car to the dealer for a reflash your changing some of the factory (maps)

they say you dont need any electronics controlers?
I say bull dunk
I can drive my truck down the road and from the cab shut my injector pulsee width down to the point i shut the truck off >LOL
let me see anyone do that without electronic controls?

[Madsceintist]

abssystems;
You are correct in all except that of the 40 drive cycles. As a tech/mech for 22 years, working on gas, diesel, carb'd and injection, I've seen Yugo to Lambo, and I can't recall one yet that takes that long. 3 to 12 drive cycles, being cold start to running temp., at least a 45 mph to 65 mph run will reset most any auto or truck that's been repaired without manually resetting the computer. Once I had a Mercedes that took nearly 200 miles to register a properly functioning O2, this after it had been to (3) other mechanics and 2 other sensors of improper fit. Customer wont even let the dealer touch this car anymore!

As far as the computer BASE LINE, cars ARE manufactured with a specific program and the parameters to allow for compensation of all the variances of air temp., barometric pressure(some cars) ambient and intake, O2, and the inputs of all types of sensors. And exactly as you said "YOU MUST REMAP THE LOGIC" to be successful in keeping any gains. The computer will eventually recompesate for the incorrect readings, thus a quick relearn via the battery disconnect.

[abssystems]

not to dispute as i stand corrected if i am wrong

I think i should have stated within 40 cycles:)

as dearborn itself says on" tech hotline" direct to factory engineers, it could take up to 40 cycles , as every key on warm up run will not always fire all the monitors on to pass


yes you are correct most times this can be acomplished in way less cycles

thanks for noticing:)

[Sodbuster]

Abssystems.... Madsceintist....Myoldyourgold

You guys = :eek: are on it !!!!! Weapon_R and or anybody who may be reading this, follow these guys lead = heavy hitters, posting comments like they do only comes with hands on experience, Thanks Guys :)

If I have not already bombarded you with FAQ here is another one. I'm about to spend more money on high dollar O2 sensors, I have 4 to replace and they will be replaced with the best no junk 02 sensors. Question... seen plenty of videos were guys are backing out there sensors with spacers ( oil fowler's spacers).
I no my 02 sensors have got to be lazy, they have 250,000 miles on them so out with old in with the new. So whats your take on this ?? Also my truck 98 Chevy 5.7 vortec NON flex fuel and I run E85. This truck has got to be way lean anyhow so my question is how far would you back them out and would you relocate them closer or farther away from the converters. O2 sensors are a huge roll player and I want to get this right.... Thanks Greg :)

[Madsceintist]

sodbuster;
250,000 miles ! O2 sensors would not hurt, however my '97 suburban 5.7 (223,000) had the best increase in power and fuel consumption when it got a new timing chain.......! Just the average wear that there was made a lot of difference in performance, though I wanted to pull it out to go all the way through it I just put the chain in while I was putting in a water pump. As a note, if you have done or will do a tune up, please be considerate to you and your truck and use A/C delco plugs!

By the way, leave the O2's where they are, they operate best at the temp.(especially the HO2's) they deal with and you want to stay close to the converter.

Not a shot for the name brand, just most people don't realize that a spark plug isn't just a plug................ IT'S a resistor.

[19TERCEL96]

"Madscientist, As far as the computer BASE LINE, cars ARE manufactured with a specific program and the parameters to allow for compensation of all the variances of air temp., barometric pressure(some cars) ambient and intake, O2, and the inputs of all types of sensors. And exactly as you said "YOU MUST REMAP THE LOGIC" to be successful in keeping any gains. The computer will eventually recompesate for the incorrect readings, thus a quick relearn via the battery disconnect. "

So does remapping the logic mean that an EFIE is not needed?
I know that an EFIE puts aprox 200mV on the signal line, so the computer see this as a "rich" condition and then leans out the car, but if using an EFIE for the 02, and nothing is done to the MAP sensor, the gains will diminish over time?

Am I understanding this right?

And where would someone go to have their computers logic remapped, or would simply disconnecting the battery once a week do it?

[Sodbuster]

Good point 19 !!

Take a look at these 02 sensors "WOW" = OMG.. big time lean.

<a href="http://s1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/SODBUSTERS/Mobile%20Uploads/?action=view&amp;current=Photo090.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/SODBUSTERS/Mobile%20Uploads/Photo090.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Got the New 02 Denso`s installed except one secondary 02 it will be in tomorrow.

So you think Mad by extending the 02 and getting it out of the exhaust that it will do me no good? This I do understand the 02 has got to be heated via the exhaust, if we pull it out of the exhaust stream the ECM may not be able to reconise 02 volts and may stay stuck in open loop.... Right ?

[Weapon_R]

Now your in my field of expertiese:)

first off I have close to 30 years as a A tech with ford motor as a shop forman I was around when we went to fuel injection Pcm controled
anyway it is true you can errase the (KAM) keep alive memory in a pcm
and a much faster way to do so is removing the positive battery cable and ground it out trust me this wil wipe out all memory in every processor on your car including the radio, why wait for the headlights to drain them, chuckles

Myold is correct in the fact small correction will be overcome with this process however your pcm is goign to relearn and go righ back to programed in (maps)
this is why if you produce little gas you may see a change that stays or you may get worse and worse milage as time passes
basically every 40 ( drive cycles) your computor " take stock of itself" per say
thus if you pop a check engine light and the condition doesnt occure again for 40 drive cycles it will turn the light off by itself
this is why after time the milage gets worse
so yes it is true the pcm can be cleared of stored data and then get better milage but i assure you if your making any quanity of good gas it wil be short lived milage gains
this is why flash chips exist they provide new data for the (maps) for the Pcm
when you bring you car to the dealer for a reflash your changing some of the factory (maps)

they say you dont need any electronics controlers?
I say bull dunk
I can drive my truck down the road and from the cab shut my injector pulsee width down to the point i shut the truck off >LOL
let me see anyone do that without electronic controls?

abssystems what are you using to control the injectors?

[Sodbuster]

Little Help please...

I'm trying to hook up this Duel mode map/maf sensor enhancer and I need some help.

I have four wires coming of the map sensor and I need to no witch wire is the -5 volt wire to the ECU

MAP SENSOR = red wire, white wire, black wire with white stripe, white wire black stripe

There are three wires coming from the enhancer.

SILVER = ground-
BLACK = -5 volt to ECU
RED = incoming reduced voltage/electronic controlmodule/unit.... ecm/ecu

The wire that goes to the ecu is spliced to the red wire from the map enhancer = were is this ecu wire located.

I have directions for the hook up but they are not clear ( to me) kinda hoping one you guys have done this before. Thanks Greg

[abssystems]

@ sodbuster
i will tell you this much about extenders
My brother is using them and they seem to help him with his trims
however he is using a jar bomb reactor that makes very little gas
and to date has no bad side affects from the extenders

myself i had all kinds of 02 heater issues on my truck with them so i pulled them back out and they didnt seem to help me much the way I was set up
maybe with a diffeant set up they would help i don't know
seems to me they are like a "volo" may work some may not?

Map/Maf enhancer should be done after efie ?
front 02 will produce biggest gains
monitor 02 " behind cat" sometimes just needs a little love to help the numbers work
basicaly is vehicle based in some they need to move together
others are not so fussy
not sure how your truck wil be I willl leave that for the GM guys:)

I will say Maf will not work well in all autos because fueling maps are coming down based on TP, IAT, ECT and MAF/MAP
thus if your maf is tweeked and your TP is still calling for load percent increase your going to pop off lean Maps in your ecu and drive your injectors to full open
if you do this to much you will send your ecu into open loop and watch your fuel gauge drop as you drive

now mind you fords have some of the smartest /hardest to fool PCMs out there back in the day when i worked GM and then ford
GM was light years behind ford in computor control
I'm sure that has changed some so the GM guys can assist you on those:)


@ weapon
i adjust my trim several ways
first i have an efie made by bestefi or hhoelectronic on here i think?
his efie is the bomb works great and has meter pin holes built right in to dial it up without guessing:)

MAF,IAT,ECT and TP all custom adjustments
and i have been playing with computor controled timing looking at timing tests results
most of these sensors i can control output
and monitor my exaust temp so i don't melt my engine down!
i run with a scan tool on all the time literally watch my PCM readings as i drive and use freezeframe to capture
can adjust lean or rich to either point of no return

this truck is a running test bed
and im looking to see the gains i can make with and without HHO
i can make this 4 cyl run like a v6
to date i have been able to get this loaded down truck
( the rear sags with tools) to go from
18 mpg to 28 mpg
My goal 30MPG but i wont stop testing it there if i reach it:)

[Sodbuster]

pay no attention to my post 107 wrong info.

MAP SENSOR = yellow, green, black

There are three wires coming from the enhancer.

SILVER = ground-
BLACK = -5 volt to ECU
RED = incoming reduced voltage/electronic controlmodule/unit.... ecm/ecu

So correct me if I'm wrong .... silver is ground.... the 5 volt wire coming from the map is to be cut and connected to the the black wire and than the red wire is to be connected to the other side going to the ecm/ecu.

I just need to no if you guys no witch wire is the 5 volt ecu wire?

Directions are as so: Disconnect the map sensor, Use a tester to locate the ground wire with 0 volts and the supply voltage of 5 volts, the remaining wire is the map signal wire.

[myoldyourgold]

abssystems, hhoelectronics EFIE is the best out there. I am working with him on some improvements that as soon as the testing is done it will get released to the public. Some great added things that really help. Some Fords have a frequency MAP if I remember. I have not done one yet have you? GM has some models that have both MAP and MAF and you need to deal with both of them or you will be very limited. I have a solution for that too and is also being tested. To get good results all the sensors have to tell the same story so to speak or the computer will do what it thinks is right or throw a code.

As far as the extenders go they do help in a few cases but they also cause more problems and shorten the life of the sensor in some cases. I would just stay away from them. I have heard to many bad things about them. Get a decent EFIE that controls the O2's, MAP/MAF, IAT and CTS. You might as well do it right the first time.

[Sodbuster]

MyOld,

Is this what you are talking about ==)===> http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-2012-MODEL-TUNING-101-AFR-CONTOL-HHO-HYDROGEN-GENERATOR-EFIE-MAF-MAP-IAT-CTS-/250912347681?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a6b8a9621&vxp=mtr

Whats your take on this little gem ==)===> http://ultra-gauge.com/ultragauge/index.htm

[Madsceintist]

Sodbuster;
Sorry took so long. As mygold said try not to use the extenders they're not likely to help as much as they could hurt.

I'm into Fords a bit more than most but I work on everything. Diagnostics, rebuilds, everything related to an automobile. Any type.
A Fords CTS has more control over fuel then any other car I've seen, especially when cold. A bad or poorly working sensor and the car will dump gas! As well as the vortec Chevy's.

TO EVERYONE ...................................

This I've seen to many times to count, on many cars ! Over time the coolant will become electrostatic. Any sensor that is coolant controlled can or will become electrolyte-coated. Thus rendering it less effective to work quickly or correctly. A car that's ran hot, had the coolant turn rusty, had two coolants mixed(Dexcool and Glycol based), which gel up, or a car that has a poor ground circuit and is using the coolant to pass current. You can tell in most cases in how the sensor looks, by pulling it out to look at it. It should be a clean brass color without any residue on it. A white coating or rust, or even a green coating from the coolant should not be present. Nor should it be slimy.

This may not seem important to some of you but I assure you it is. This sensor has to due with your fuel consumption............

19tercel96;
Depending on your driving and what has been done to the car, how much HHO your using, other things factor into how often the computer will "catch onto" whats going on. So it's hard to say what time frame to reset it would be, not that I recommend doing it that way anyhow. There are places that can "build" a program for your app. Its not cheap nor quick. There's a place outside of ATL that does this. I'll get the card out and post it, it'll be a few days. Leaving for Memphis now.

[myoldyourgold]

That is what is out there at the moment and that is a dealer that is selling it on eBay. There are a number of other retailers selling it too. The new one will look similar but has 2 more pots and all but one pot will be 25 turn pots and a 16 port connector instead of the 14 on the current model. If you are interested in the new features PM me and I will explain them. It is not ready for public release yet because testing is not completed. There will also be one for diesels that do not have an O2 sensor but will include all the new features. The newer diesels with an O2 will use the same new controller as the gas one.

Use the ultra gauge on every vehicle I can. So far no problems with them. Cheep and reliable.

[myoldyourgold]

Madscientist, In California I have had a car fail the smog test because it was to clean. Now if that is not nuts. It was explained to me that because it was so far out of the norm there had to be something wrong with the equipment or the method of testing so the computer fails it. What a joke!! Of course it would have been failed and fined with visual inspection anyway but that is a different problem. :mad:

[19TERCEL96]

Madscientist, In California I have had a car fail the smog test because it was to clean. Now if that is not nuts. It was explained to me that because it was so far out of the norm there had to be something wrong with the equipment or the method of testing so the computer fails it. What a joke!! Of course it would have been failed and fined with visual inspection anyway but that is a different problem. :mad:

Sounds like they grade on a curve.
NUTS is right.

[Sodbuster]

Mentor >Scientist great info there I'm following your lead pall

Mentor >My Old, yes sir I am very interested = HHO Electronics EFIE... thanks Budd

Brother > ABS Thanks for Book :) I need to brush up on my sensor`s and there roll play, I have been out of the game for many years... just one of those things if you don't use it... you loose it, and technology changes every day... just going to have to forgive me if you have to explain things twice.. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed but I am a tool :)

Guys you have no Idea how frickin blown away I am with this technology!!

Today = success !!!! Installed the new Dual map sensor enhancer purchased from *****Green Fuel H20***** WOW I am so happy with this set up. Drove all around town today monitoring and adjusting the cell Via the PWM and Dual map sensor enhancer and my fuel gauge never moved :D

Guys..... thank you, thank you, thank you, I could have not done it without you. Also a very special thanks to "Green Fuel H20" and "HHO Connection"
The service, Emails, that went back and fourth was very professional and there products have got to be one of the best. If you are just a newbie like me and you want to be successful in your build these folks are the best in my book.

OK ..... I'm in,,, full throttle boys I want to make this happen!!! I need a scanner, I'm thinking the Snap on MT 2500 ? I have used this scanner back in the day and I am familiar with it and there is a ton of them on EBay.

Now I see what you guys are constantly talking about with your supply tanks getting WARM/Hot. Bench testing and road condition are not even close, what happened on the bench ... stayed on the bench, road condition are not even close, and the sloshing around in the bubbler after a speed bump no choice to run it less than half full. Also this 6 QT supply tank is awesome but two would even be better, one tank per inlet and outlet on the cell.... cooling is going to be a issue >>>> beginning to see the light you folks have been shedding.... Thanks, Greg

[Madsceintist]

Back from Memphis to spend the day with family, instead I have to work on something to take the trip back tomorrow as I blew out the input shaft seal from my SHO's transmission yesterday. However I did get the mileage for use without HHO (21.4), sooner or later I'll get mileage with !!!!!

Just to give everyone my method again, I fill up then drive till it runs out (stalls). This way I'm not off by half gal or so, it's more exact.

Also I am still working on the Toyota donor just slowly. But for HHO supplement I'll be using what i drive daily; 1989 Ford Taurus SHO 3.0v6, 5 speed, Supertuner chip, with a heap of upgrades for road track. I will be making quicker progress with this .............

Mygold;
That's funny.. You'd think they would welcome clean air !

Sodbuster;
I use the red brick(MT 2500) myself. No trouble. I have the updated cartridge's that's reprogrammable for future updates.

[Madsceintist]

Mygold;
When I had my first cell working at peak. My scanner was showing that the O2's were reading ;
B1-S1 40-120 ish,
B1-S2 0-40 ish.
with the fuel pump running at 4.5 volts.

B1-S1 0- 70 ish,
B1-S2 0-0
with the pump cut out completely.

I think that the reading at all without the pump off is due to left over carbon or something still in the intake or oil blow-by. Not sure but the volt meter said 0 volts at the pump and obviously the readings can't lie that there wasn't a presence of fuel.

With the fuel pump running at 12 volts, the readings were as normal;
B1-S1 350 ish to 980 ish,
B1-S2 150 ish to 700 ish,
They drop some with HHO turned on but nothing like when you drop fuel pressure.

[myoldyourgold]

Mygold;
When I had my first cell working at peak. My scanner was showing that the O2's were reading ;
B1-S1 40-120 ish,
B1-S2 0-40 ish.
with the fuel pump running at 4.5 volts.

B1-S1 0- 70 ish,
B1-S2 0-0
with the pump cut out completely.

I think that the reading at all without the pump off is due to left over carbon or something still in the intake or oil blow-by. Not sure but the volt meter said 0 volts at the pump and obviously the readings can't lie that there wasn't a presence of fuel.

With the fuel pump running at 12 volts, the readings were as normal;
B1-S1 350 ish to 980 ish,
B1-S2 150 ish to 700 ish,
They drop some with HHO turned on but nothing like when you drop fuel pressure.

Very good information. I need to think about this a little. What vehicle was this in? Were you using a pwm to control the fuel pump? Is this a tank pump? What rpm was the readings taken at? I am going to have a lot of questions. LOL I might be able to answer most of them after doing some thinking and understanding the particular vehicle the test was done on. Excellent data thanks.

[hhoconnection]

Guys you have no Idea how frickin blown away I am with this technology!!

Today = success !!!! Installed the new Dual map sensor enhancer purchased from *****Green Fuel H20***** WOW I am so happy with this set up. Drove all around town today monitoring and adjusting the cell Via the PWM and Dual map sensor enhancer and my fuel gauge never moved :D

Guys..... thank you, thank you, thank you, I could have not done it without you. Also a very special thanks to "Green Fuel H20" and "HHO Connection"
The service, Emails, that went back and fourth was very professional and there products have got to be one of the best. If you are just a newbie like me and you want to be successful in your build these folks are the best in my book.



Thanks for the mention Greg! And thanks for acknowledging the others on this forum. The amount of free information that is given so unselfishly by the "heavy hitters" here is a wonderful thing. I don't think many people realize the amount of time it takes to answer all of these very complex questions. I try to answer as many basic questions as I can in the many many emails that I get. But when it comes to installation questions, as you found out, I always refer them here and the forum down under. The more people like yourself that join in the mix, the sooner this will become mainstream.

WELCOME TO THE WORLD OF HHO, ENJOY THE RIDE!

[Madsceintist]

2000 Chevy Cavalier 2.2 automatic. This is the one that I got 129 miles to a gal. out of. I used the dimmer switch from a old Toyota truck and a couple diodes. Went through a few however, they burn up at that 5. volt mark. The car would stall or buck if under a moderate to heavy load under 3.5-3.75 volts. But the sweet spot was 4.5 volts. Heavy acceleration or upgrades would need 7-9 volts. Coasting at 70 on flat highway or downhill, I would turn off the fuel pump completely and still be running normal, between 2800-3400 rpm, no engine light, all normal on the scanner outside of the O2's being blank or next to.
By the way, the cars fuel injected, in tank pump, federal emissions, 223,000 miles. No modifications outside the HHO and fuel pump power being limited. No efie, map enhancer, nothing. But it's now our daughter's car back to original.

[Sodbuster]

Hey any of you guys ever experiment with supplementing propane for fuel. I no this is going the wrong way but???.

Made this up today its got me curious.

<a href="http://s1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/SODBUSTERS/Mobile%20Uploads/?action=view&amp;current=Photo091.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/SODBUSTERS/Mobile%20Uploads/Photo091.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[aceras624]

isnt that MAPP gas?

[Sodbuster]

Yes it is, I tried both map and regular gas over the week end with no luck all it would do is make the engine flutter and throw a check engine light but hey, never going to no whats going to happen unless we try :)

[aceras624]

actually if you research the gasses youre using, you can compare them and have a reasonable guess as to whether it will work or DESTROY your car :)

[Sodbuster]

Has anybody ever tried a 50/1 mix in there fuel to help deal with corrosive issues?

[Sodbuster]

Check it out, Bobbers in the Bubbler = no more splashing ... works great!!

<a href="http://s1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/SODBUSTERS/Mobile%20Uploads/?action=view&amp;current=Photo095.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/SODBUSTERS/Mobile%20Uploads/Photo095.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[BioFarmer93]

Check it out, Bobbers in the Bubbler = no more splashing ... works great!!

<a href="http://s1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/SODBUSTERS/Mobile%20Uploads/?action=view&amp;current=Photo095.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd410/SODBUSTERS/Mobile%20Uploads/Photo095.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

new term- Bobblers!

[Sodbuster]

*Question* for you folks on this Digital EFIE that I just installed.




Running E85 (none flex fuel vehicle) at about 70% alcohol 30% pump gas. Right now the front 02 sensors are as recommended 350 millivolts and the rear 02 sensors are at
200 mV as recommended. Now that the vehicle is on 70% alcohol should I be starting at a different point ? and Any idea were I mite end up :confused: I have read all the directions and I do understand the concept of this devise and it is operating just as it should. Question.... just wondering if you folks had some advise.

Thanks, Greg

[Shane Jackson]

go back to 100% pump gas..... it already has too much alcohol in it.... The computer is not designed for flex fuel.... and you might damage the seals in your injectors.

[Sodbuster]

Thanks for the advise Shane but no thanks.. im not trying to be rudd and no need to go back and forth on Ethanol VERS pump gas.

[Madsceintist]

E-85 is 85% ethanol, E-95 is 95% ethanol, the rest is gasoline. E-95 is recommended for diesel and E-85 for gas burning engines. However if you dilute it yourself it will burn better, but the cost of ethanol is slightly higher in some places. The ethanol does not burn as well nor does it produce as much power for the same amount of regular gas. Your injector pulse needs to open longer to get the amount of ethanol to make that difference up, which means you get less mileage for the dollar. With ethanol you should also increase the fuel pressure above 60 psi (preferably near 80-85 psi), this will give you the ability to reduce the fuel into smaller particles for a better burn also (this takes the correct injectors to do this). You will also notice that your engine timing runs a little higher before top dead center than normal as usually by about 2-3 degrees.

I work with the FFV Taurus' and none flex as well so I see this often. Dodge has been using a system that's setup for this already for years, but they weren't calling them flex fuel.

Just correcting the ratio of the E-85 was my point, I guess.

You wont damage your computer, injectors, engine or much of anything. But long term use of something that's not burning well can and will burn up the catalytic convertor.

Sodbuster;
as well; NICE bobblers! Cool........

[Sodbuster]

Sup Mad,

Hey I no what E85 is... been running it since 2004 and this OL pick up has logged over 150,000 miles just on E85, best frickin fuel you can by as far as I am concerned. Check this out I picked up this truck when it had 60,000 on it. Than at 112,000 miles I had replaced 5 fuel pumps (on junk pump gas)AT THREE HUNDRED BUCKS A WAK!!! Than I made the switch back in 2004 to E85 when it came to the mid west and I'm still running the same pump ever since, right now>> 250,000.00

Personally I much rather run Alcohol at any expense and the no sayers I have no use for them.

Anyways the E85 we get around here is not E85 its at the minimum of 70% just as the pump says .... E85 minimum 70%. Years ago ... yea it was allot closer to E85 and when you were pumping it you could really smell the alcohol :rolleyes: but I'm sure the oil company's have got there greedy little hands on the blender pumps....

Converters>>> they need to find a new home :) and some how trick these 02`s and the ECM to believing there still there ???

Also check this out >> since the EFIE install with 2 liters HHO PM on E85 this truck is running at 150 DEG all the time :eek: :cool: and runs like a sewing machine.... well maybe a little lifter clatter.

[myoldyourgold]

E85 I have found requires 7 degree retard at cruising speeds in order to keep in the best crank angle compared to 100% gasoline. In flex fuel engines this is automatic. Now when you add HHO which has a faster burn rate you need to retard more to get the max out of things. It is a little trickier than 100% gasoline. Even though gains are seen without doing this they will not be the max available. Sounds like you have a handle on it.

[Madsceintist]

You will also notice that your engine timing runs a little higher before top dead center than normal as usually by about 2-3 degrees.



When I wrote this I was intending on this 2-3 degrees in addition to what the engines already running. Sorry if it wasn't clear.

Sod;
So the stations diluting it or you? Different times of the year here they change the formula as to compensate for the colder months, I.E., so evaporation occurs less in the summer. You can absolutely tell when it happens as to how quickly you burn through a tank!

[Sodbuster]

Mad..

I purchase my fuel at the blender pumps in the form of E85. I do understand that in the winter months E85 is diluted more with pump gas = for a cold start condition... fast start, and quicker engine warm up time. But I am seeing even in the hot hot summer month's E85 is still deluded and when you get a good whiff of it the smell of pump gas is overpowering when it should be the other way around.

Yes I do see my mileage drop considerably when E85 is at full strength but I could care less ..... luv the way my rig runs and pulling a load on alcohol.

Anyways thats why I'm here and my experience with HHO so far is frickin auwsome. I would have never guessed the gains I have seen so far were possible, dry cells have come such a long way in the past few years ... You folks are on it!!! and.. and.. and.. 150 deg engine temps at full warm, whats up with that :eek: = :D

This digital EFIE controller is pretty cool !! when I first installed the devise I went with what they recommended, and started out with 350 mv on the front 02 and 200 on the rear. So I went lean .... 450 on the front 02 and 200 on the rear. Truck ran perfect and I made a 40 mile run. After about 20 miles or so CHECK INGINE came on and bam truck went into open loop and started dumping fuel. So I cleared the ECM backed the front 02 back to 350 and left the rear at 200. So far so good no check engine light, I think what is happening is that I am so lean already with the alcohol and than go even leaner with EFIE even though we are tricking the ECM it still is smarter than we think and throws a code. Like you guys have been talking about we need to treat all the sensors and get them all on the same page.

[myoldyourgold]

I think I need to also clarify my post in regards to retarding the ignition in E85. Even though this will vary between engines this will give you and idea of what is happening. On 8 different engines that were tested the results were very similar but all were slightly different. Here is just one that is similar but not one of the eight so am not violating the nondisclosure agreement. I had them tested on HHO but because of a nondisclosure agreement can not post the results at this moment. It was the only way I could get the testing done for free. Its a long story.


http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g215/yenom_1945/Ignitiontiming.jpg

[Sodbuster]

Update:

Right now at 2 liters pm at 20 amps, DEFIE is 250 on the front 02 sensors 150 on the rear 02 sensors. Dual map sensor enhancer is about at the half way point on city and HWY. Also installed a voltage regulator on the fuel pump and it runs best at about 8.5 V. So yes my millage has doubled went from about 11 MPG to just over 20 MPG "However" as long as the check engine light don`t come and get stuck in open loop gas mileage is great. But no matter were I go on the DEFIE rich or lean the ECM figures it out and throws a code. Now I have no Idea what code it is throwing I have no scanner I'm just guessing the 02 are reporting a lean condition and throwing a code that and Im sure the E85 in a none flex truck is not helping any. I have a snap on MT2500 on the way soon witch will help tacking the guess work out of it. This is exactly what you all said would happen so I'm not surprised. MyOld you warned me about this I no but i cant get my feet wet unless I jump in :) anyways.... there is were I'm at.

[myoldyourgold]

Right now at 2 liters pm at 20 amps, DEFIE is 250 on the front 02 sensors 150 on the rear 02 sensors. Dual map sensor enhancer is about at the half way point on city and HWY. Also installed a voltage regulator on the fuel pump and it runs best at about 8.5 V. So yes my millage has doubled went from about 11 MPG to just over 20 MPG "However" as long as the check engine light don`t come and get stuck in open loop gas mileage is great. But no matter were I go on the DEFIE rich or lean the ECM figures it out and throws a code. Now I have no Idea what code it is throwing I have no scanner I'm just guessing the 02 are reporting a lean condition and throwing a code that and Im sure the E85 in a none flex truck is not helping any. I have a snap on MT2500 on the way soon witch will help tacking the guess work out of it. This is exactly what you all said would happen so I'm not surprised. MyOld you warned me about this I no but i cant get my feet wet unless I jump in anyways.... there is were I'm at.

Sodbuster, take hart a lot of people are in the same situation. Without treating all the sensors that the ECM is collecting data from you end up where you are in a lot of cases. You are going to have to treat all of them in order to keep the good gain. Now you can try backing down the HHO production and DEFIE giving up some gain and finding the spot where it will tolerate it. Make sure you reset the ECM each time. Takes time. I prefer to just treat them all. One other thing you can try is to turn off every thing at idle where the biggest imbalance shows up, in some case but not all. (everything stock at idle) In some vehicles this helps you run leaner without throwing a code. Do not give up you will master it. Many have.

[Sodbuster]

Sodbuster, take hart a lot of people are in the same situation. Without treating all the sensors that the ECM is collecting data from you end up where you are in a lot of cases. You are going to have to treat all of them in order to keep the good gain. Now you can try backing down the HHO production and DEFIE giving up some gain and finding the spot where it will tolerate it. Make sure you reset the ECM each time. Takes time. I prefer to just treat them all. One other thing you can try is to turn off every thing at idle where the biggest imbalance shows up, in some case but not all. (everything stock at idle) In some vehicles this helps you run leaner without throwing a code. Do not give up you will master it. Many have.

Been there done that and every other combination no matter what it throws a code .... I new it was coming :rolleyes: Your right, need to treat all the sensors and just as soon as you got all the bugs worked out give me first call please.

What do you think about just letting it stay in open loop now that I can shut the fuel off via this voltage controller on the fuel pump? Truck runs great in open or closed loop... just that in open loop it starts dumping fuel and MPG start to realy suck. Also another thing I am seeing is once this thing throws a code and goes into open loop the Dual map sensor enhancer no longer seems to respond compared to when it was in closed loop.

[myoldyourgold]

In your case I doubt there will be a problem. Just make sure you do not get excessive high exhaust gas temperatures. If you were where they fine you if caught with the check engine light on or at least will get a fix it ticket then I would so no. LOL

[Stevo]

It's a Hondata for Honda motors article, but it describes the basics of open and closed loop. Sounds like you are triggering limp mode which typically throws the computer into open loop mode. So your EFIE is no good in that scenario.

http://www.hondata.com/techclosed.html

[myoldyourgold]

Sodbuster, I am assuming that you keep your gains when it is throwing a code. Is that right? I am assuming that because of the pump being slowed down. Have you checked the exhaust manifold temperature? Even in limp mode it will still be lean because you are controlling it with the pump not the DEIFFE. If this is the case I would like to know for sure. You need to find out what the code is. Turn off the DEFFIE and see if it keeps the gain without clearing the code.

[Sodbuster]

Sodbuster, I am assuming that you keep your gains when it is throwing a code. Is that right? I am assuming that because of the pump being slowed down. Have you checked the exhaust manifold temperature? Even in limp mode it will still be lean because you are controlling it with the pump not the DEIFFE. If this is the case I would like to know for sure. You need to find out what the code is. Turn off the DEFFIE and see if it keeps the gain without clearing the code.

Up till now the answer is "no" I loose all gains wen throwing a code= limp mode MPG drops in half 20+ to less than 11MPG and just as soon as the check engine light comes on the exhaust smells very rich but the truck runs fine probably do to the fact I'm running a minimum of 70% alcohol = E85. Also (SES light on or of) water temp is around 150 deg, don't no what exhaust temps are still need to get a laser temp gun, "but" I can till you this exhaust manifold temps are very very low I can almost hold my hand on the manifold even after a long hard drive = WTF = alcohol and HHO = thats what I'm talking about!! Before I was running the DEFIE and the pump voltage controller same thing would happen, kinda was hoping the DEFIE would solve this issue. However with the DEFIE throwing a code it does not happen as often and if I keep my hands off the map enhancer (going rich lean rich lean) I can go days without throwing a code. Seems like you need to find the sweet spot and leave it alone. Warm up time with all controls "of " except the HHO than after warm up turn on the enhancer and do not miss around with it, this seems to work best but in time ECM figures it out and BAM check engine light on.

Just as soon as I receive my scanner I will get back with you on what code it is throwing.

Also I am installing another 38 plate dry cell so i will be running dual dry cells, dual yellow tops and dual alternators 110 amp X2. I want volumes of HHO at low amps and low tank temps = over kill = yea I no... BUT so far what I am seeing powering a vehicle on large amounts off HHO and almost no fuel can be done. I had to see this with my own two eyes... and now that I can shut the fuel of and trickle it to the motor stumbles and than turn on the HHO and flow 2 LPM the truck smooths right out and is drivable. But than in time I'm right back were I started and I'm sure there is a ton of you all out there banging there heads with this same issue..... the ECM is way to smart.

So now what :confused: no biggie in time well figure it out. I have some thoughts and what if`s.

With out going into writing a book has anybody ever tried to go with a LPG mixer ? and instead of LPG utilize HHO? I'm thinking this well go right back to storing HHO under pressure is a no no.... but than again I need to no for myself ..... curiosity is killing me :confused:

[myoldyourgold]

There are a number of pressure systems already on the market. There are some major problems like potential of doing some serious damage and the expense of the system to make it safe and useful. If your reactor is making a majority of para hydrogen and you mix just over 4% of air with it you can compress it safely. With ortho I would want more air and really not want to do it because of an experience I have had. It just is more safety devises and in the end you will not be able to run your engine on just HHO and still will need some carbon fuel. I agree it will be a lot less but still will need some. I look at this whole thing very commercially. The reason being if it is not commercially viable then very few people will ever be using it. If you have heard or read of other methods of getting large gains out there with evidence that they work but are not on the market unless they are a scam you know it just does not make economic sense or possibly some other sinister problem. HHO is slowly going main stream even though there are still a lot scams and BS out in the market but it will slowly clean up as people wise up. There are so many venders/retailers most junk but there just the same.

Now all that said the safest way so far is to control the ECM and there will be available devices that will do this shortly that are not that complex like the piggy backs that are already in the market and will be in a price range that makes economic sense. Hang in there.

No use running with the ECU in limp mode if there is no gains as you stated. Maybe just make it a habit to reset it every so many days until you get the right setup. I would like to understand one thing though. After a code is thrown the ECU starts ignoring the sensors and goes to a rich map. Now if you are controlling the fuel pump and it remains lean why does it not stay with the good mileage. Even if the injection is longer if the pump is controlling how much fuel is injected you should just be able to crank the pump down some more if this is actually what is happening and maintain the gain. Maybe you can shed some light on this.

[Madsceintist]

Just as soon as I receive my scanner I will get back with you on what code it is throwing.

Also I am installing another 38 plate dry cell so i will be running dual dry cells, dual yellow tops and dual alternators 110 amp X2. I want volumes of HHO at low amps and low tank temps = over kill = yea I no... BUT so far what I am seeing powering a vehicle on large amounts off HHO and almost no fuel can be done. I had to see this with my own two eyes... and now that I can shut the fuel of and trickle it to the motor stumbles and than turn on the HHO and flow 2 LPM the truck smooths right out and is drivable. But than in time I'm right back were I started and I'm sure there is a ton of you all out there banging there heads with this same issue..... the ECM is way to smart.


With out going into writing a book has anybody ever tried to go with a LPG mixer ? and instead of LPG utilize HHO? I'm thinking this well go right back to storing HHO under pressure is a no no.... but than again I need to no for myself ..... curiosity is killing me :confused:


Good job. People didn't seem to be to interested seriously in the fact that I was turning down or off my fuel pump. I didn't get the mileage I said by chance, I had to work for it.

What I am learning is that if you allow the computer to stay in limp mode then work from there you don't have to fool it any longer! Screw the O2's, run with the basic programming letting the engine run, then alter the timing and fuel injector pulse, as well as turning down the fuel pump. My temperature is so low that the computer throws a code for CTS low voltage. I don't have a mileage for anything right now as I'm not worried about that. When you double your average tank full plus it becomes less important to keep track.. I'm still working on the Toyota and some other things. Keep up the work Sod............................

[Madsceintist]

No use running with the ECU in limp mode if there is no gains as you stated. Maybe just make it a habit to reset it every so many days until you get the right setup. I would like to understand one thing though. After a code is thrown the ECU starts ignoring the sensors and goes to a rich map. Now if you are controlling the fuel pump and it remains lean why does it not stay with the good mileage. Even if the injection is longer if the pump is controlling how much fuel is injected you should just be able to crank the pump down some more if this is actually what is happening and maintain the gain. Maybe you can shed some light on this.


Mygold; I didn't see you on, sorry. The reason the gains go away is because the injectors will dump(literally) fuel into the engine, unless you cut back the pulse width! The fuel pressure is just to maintain the atomization of the fuel into finer particles, the finer the fuel the more vapor you get! Yes technically you should be able to just cut the injector pulse but it seems to be working much better when i cut down the pressure as well.

E-85 has to be or is supposed to vaporized more so if its being dumped in by the injectors then it has an even worse burn then regular gasoline. This is why flex-fuel vehicles have different injectors and higher pressure pumps! The injector pulse on a flex-fuel vehicle is also different then others.

[myoldyourgold]

Madsceintist, No apology necessary it happens to me often. The point I was trying to make is that the pump either causes a lean condition or does not in this case. I have and am in the process of installing an AEM controller just to use its injector control part. Lots of wiring without a harness. LOL Everything I have gleaned by talking to there tech guys tell me not to lower the pressure in fact I might want to rase it. Of course I am dealing with regular gas and not E85. How lowering the pressure is helping still is a little foggy to me unless it helps lean things out. With the injectors dumping in limp mode should have been a test for this. If it reduces spray, which it should, and does not lean things out, then where is the advantage. I am slow I know but the old dog does lean new tricks over time LOL.

[Madsceintist]

The point I was trying to make is that the pump either causes a lean condition or does not in this case. Of course I am dealing with regular gas and not E85. How lowering the pressure is helping still is a little foggy to me unless it helps lean things out. With the injectors dumping in limp mode should have been a test for this. If it reduces spray, which it should, and does not lean thing out, then where is the advantage. I am slow I know but the old dog does lean new tricks over time LOL.


Mygold;
On the fuel pressure;
The higher the pressure the finer the fuel is broken down into particles, which more rapidly turns to vapor. This is what is needed to burn fuel better with more power.


Cutting the injector pulse to reduce the amount of fuel going in will reduce consumption. You can reduce the fuel pressure more easily on regular fuel verses E-85, because you already get a better burn out of regular gas. If you use high grade you get even better mileage but at a higher cost. Higher octane is better obviously. I cant answer why at this time why I get better results with turning down the fuel pumps power on top of the pulse adjustment, but I will figure it out and report it. By the way I don't use E-85, had crap results with it in 3 vehicles so far.

[myoldyourgold]

On the fuel pressure;
The higher the pressure the finer the fuel is broken down into particles, which more rapidly turns to vapor. This is what is needed to burn fuel better with more power.


Cutting the injector pulse to reduce the amount of fuel going in will reduce consumption. You can reduce the fuel pressure more easily on regular fuel verses E-85, because you already get a better burn out of regular gas. If you use high grade you get even better mileage but at a higher cost. Higher octane is better obviously. I cant answer why at this time why I get better results with turning down the fuel pumps power on top of the pulse adjustment, but I will figure it out and report it. By the way I don't use E-85, had crap results with it in 3 vehicles so far.

This is exactly what my tests have shown and my understanding. I will be very interested in your results though. Something to think about, the reduction of pressure helping on top of cutting the injector pulse.

[Sodbuster]

WOW... great information guys thanks for the books.

Ok lots and lots of in town driving today (no hwy) start and stop for most of the afternoon and here is what I am seeing.

This voltage controller is working out real good so far. The sweet spot (in town) is about 8 volts. So what I am doing is on cold start and during warm up "no" HHO and "no" map enhancer. Than once warmed up and rolling down the road both HHO (2 LPM) and enhancer are turned on and 8 volts on the voltage controller. Also DFIE... 02 sensors are at 250 on the front and 150 on the rear. So far so good no check engine light and I might add in the past (no voltage controller full charging voltage at the pump 13.8) if I made these same runs it would throw a check engine light.

Myold you asked me a question regarding throwing a code and remaining lean and loosing MPG with this voltage controller.
The last few weeks I have "not" been running a voltage controller on the pump, and just as the ECU throws a code than my MPG would drop. I just installed this voltage controller yesterday and I was only able to make one short run with it and this morning I posted my results, That and I only had 1 cup of coffee wen I posted so god only knows what I said ... LOL.

On this voltage controller it is not really a voltage controller >>Madscientest it is a 30 amp PWM. I went out just like you said and found a treadmill that worked perfect and it was a free Bee. So I get this thing home and the electronics in this thing were crazy I spent hours trying to figure any way to make it work, in the end I ditched it. So I got in touch with some folks that build PWM`s and told them what I was after and what you told me about Voltage controllers. Make a long story even longer the way it was explained to me running a PWM to control an electric motor is the safest way to go. So I did some searches and I found a PWM that I was suggested to use. The PWM works perfect and is 0 to 100% .... fine tunning is no problem and right now I am running just a basic digital volt meter to monitor the pump as I am running down the road, so far so good. My plans are if I keep the unit installed I will run 12 gauge wire from inside of the tank all the way to the PWM from start to finish, right now I am utilizing the truck wire harness that is plumed with 16/18 gauge wire. I will over kill it to flow amps keeping wire temps in check and PWM from over heating and pump failure, we will see what happends..... This was your Idea Madscientest AND IT WORKS!!!

Another thing that was a huge concern to me was the supply tank and bubbler. Every time I hit a bump or sharp corner water sloshing back and fourth I was seeing the supply tank and bubbler sharing water. This was a problem "big time" and I never would have seen if this unit was not mounted in my bed. I can monitor the system via my rear view and this was going to be a problem. The bobbers in the bubbler and supply tank solved the problem no more sloshing >> problem solved. However these rectangular supply tanks work great on the bench but road conditions are not the same. Round PVC say 4 inch would perform much better for a supply tank, a rectangular design just Promotes wave action across the tank verses round PVC pipe there is almost no wave action. In time when I get up to speed like you all, maybe I can get a Beast built like MYOld`s .... LOL some day :) I'm starting to understand why all the PVC pipe.

Ok got another Idea and I just have to ask,,, is it possible to program a ECU/ECM to were it is locked up in closed loop. If this is possible can you imagine the headaches it would save us. If it is possible via some kind of program or electronic hoopty gadget installed this would be something to consider... or maybe not, just thinking out loud.

[Madsceintist]

Ok got another Idea and I just have to ask,,, is it possible to program a ECU/ECM to were it is locked up in closed loop. If this is possible can you imagine the headaches it would save us. If it is possible via some kind of program or electronic hoopty gadget installed this would be something to consider... or maybe not, just thinking out loud.

You can guarantee that you can lock it up if you pull both O2 sensor wires lose and leave them! This is what I said before. Leave it this way and work from there. No more "trying" to fool the ECM just work around it. You keep the gains you get NO PROBLEM. The computer has a basic programming for the rest of the sensors to keep all running smoothly with out any trouble.

By the way I didn't use or suggest the treadmill but I guess that's a possibility. I made my own from a interior light dimmer from a Toyota truck and some diodes.

[aceras624]

hu uh huh huhh you said "diodes" uh huh huh huh

[Sodbuster]

You can guarantee that you can lock it up if you pull both O2 sensor wires lose and leave them! This is what I said before. Leave it this way and work from there. No more "trying" to fool the ECM just work around it. You keep the gains you get NO PROBLEM. The computer has a basic programming for the rest of the sensors to keep all running smoothly with out any trouble.

By the way I didn't use or suggest the treadmill but I guess that's a possibility. I made my own from a interior light dimmer from a Toyota truck and some diodes.

Sorry Mad.. gave yea credit for "Abssystems" Idea :) Anyways thanks to you both, so far so good!!

Ok on the 02 sensors witch ones do I pull, front or rear. Also will it throw a code and go into open loop?

Somtimes I need to be told twice, I think my mind goes into open loop more than my truck does.

[myoldyourgold]

Sod, pull one or all and it throws a code and might go into open loop with just one pulled. Pull the front two and it should go into open loop for sure. I have found different MFG's work slightly different.

[Sodbuster]

Sod, pull one or all and it throws a code and might go into open loop with just one pulled. Pull the front two and it should go into open loop for sure. I have found different MFG's work slightly different.

Ok now why do we want to force open loop and start dumping fuel ? right now I have ran for two days no check engine light and I am pretty close to being dialed in.... so I think. Anyways I guess I'm confused. If we go into open loop with no 02 sensors than we start all over again and than we have even more fuel to deal with, I must have missed something you said.

I have contacted a ECM/ECU builder and explained what I am after. Were going back and fourth on Emails right now but I was told that it is possible to remove the 02 code from the ECU so that the ECU still recognizes and configures values but is not able to throw the code and force a check engine light and go into open loop or limp mode. So anyways I am interested if this is do able and you guys please chime in, whats your thoughts.. Thanks

[myoldyourgold]

That is a much better solution for sure. I never run any vehicle in open loop and have always been able to solve the problem without doing that. I just sounded like you wanted to do that and asked how. When you find out how to disable the O2 code and keep the others working, that I am sure everyone would interested in. Keep us informed.

[Sodbuster]

Ok guys I have explained my goals to this ECM/ECU builder and here are some comments he has made regarding fuel trim with a voltage controller/PWM installed at this time and map enhancer. I have explained in detail all the mods, HHO and LPM and fuel that I am using and here is his comments and suggestions.



1) The factory fuel injectors used on these Vortec engines are the poppet nozzle type. There is a central injector (one for each cylinder) that supplies fuel to a tube that runs to a port injector (this is the poppet nozzle injector), one for each cylinder, which is located at each intake port within the intake manifold. The poppet nozzle injector will only open above a certain pressure. Reducing power/voltage to the fuel pump will do nothing to reduce injector flow because of the design of the poppet nozzle. If you reduce the fuel pressure too much, the poppet nozzle injectors will simply fail to open. If this were a more conventional type of fuel injection system, I would suggest running an adjustable fuel pressure regulator instead so you could dial down the fuel pressure – but you can’t do that with these poppet nozzle injectors because they simply will not open below a certain fuel pressure.

OK so yes this all makes perfect sense and his explanation of the poppet valves I already new this, I have been in this motor many times before. Matter fact this system must have a minimum 59 psi and 62 regulated of fuel pressure, if not you have a drive ability issue. In the past I have replaced dozens of fuel pumps in these multi-port injection systems if they don't have a minimum of 59 PSI and the filter is Clean it gets a new pump and 99.9% of the time its fixed.




2) The computers in these trucks use both the MAF and the MAP sensor to determine fuel delivery to the engine. I believe they only use the MAP sensor to calculate spark advance. If you are relying on the MAP enhancer to reduce gasoline flow into the engine, I don’t think that is going to work like you want it to (because the MAF sensor is simply going to over-ride it). But if you are relying on it to adjust timing advance, then it might work as desired. An enhancer module that adjusts the output signal of BOTH the MAP and MAF sensors would have an impact on BOTH fuel and timing delivery to the engine. But if it is only hooked to one of these sensors, then it may not have the desired effect.

This also makes perfect sense and we have been going back fourth on this essue... all the sensors must shake hands together = so to speak.



3) The reason why the system is setting codes and going into open loop is because you are reaching the limit of what the PCM can self-adjust for fuel based on the signals input by the O2 sensor circuits. The stock programming has some pretty strict limits it puts on how far the fuel trims can adjust. Thru custom programming, I can widen this operating window significantly which should make it work just fine with your secondary injection system without causing O2 sensor codes to set.

Again he is making perfect sense and this is the same thing I am seeing.

[Madsceintist]

Sod;
I see now what your driving. I have a '97 Suburban which is going to New York soon. A round trip back through several other states as well. 5.7 Vortec. I've had it for years and just put the trans in it today. It went to New York last year with HHO on the front of it. Some changes but it will again.

You are right about the injectors, however, there are eight small injectors inside AND the poppets. The revised injector assembly for this motor is a nice upgrade. The v6 Vortec has the same also with upgrade. Their not cheap!

This injector assy. is called the spider injector, it has the regulator mounted directly on it. The small round cylinders are the injectors and the tubes run to the poppets, which are small ball bearings that create a spray pattern at high pressure. If these get dirty or stopped up you get a pour idle and stumble occasionally. I use STP in the red bottle to keep these clean about twice a year, or if I use E-85 by mistake. I ran my HHO thru a tee in my brake booster line and ran my truck with the two front O2's unplugged. I do have my mileage readings wrote down somewhere but would have to look for them as I was more into the Cavalier.


The reason I run it with the O2's unplugged is so that I don't have to fool with trying to get the computer to work with me, but I can work from the basic programming that runs it. Cut back fuel, retard the timing, I opened the gap on the plugs by .15 but their new so its got a good clean spark. Sitting still running is showing nice results but the road trip will give me something new to work with I'm sure. I ran with the O2's off last year, but that was a different cell. So I'll give you some results of this trip soon as I get them.

Aceras;
Where ya been Beavus or is that Butthead ?:D

[myoldyourgold]

All very informative but my solution for all of this is in my opinion simpler. The prototype controller I am testing right now is on a 2000 S10 with a 4.3 vortec which has both MAP and MAF. I chose this vehicle because of that particular fact. This controller is capable of controlling both with a small add-on which I am using. All the sensors are controlled and in agreement and everything is working as it should. I still need to do the final tuning to find the sweet spot or max gain with no loss of HP. I will be finished testing in a few more days and let you know what the results are. This controller will still take some time to get into the market. It needs to be tested on a number of vehicles to see exactly what problems will arise in tuning and so the solutions can be included in the instructions etc. I have been delayed with other pressing business setting me back a few days or would have finished the testing last week. Such is life. If you do not adjust both the MAP and the MAF along with all the other sensors that the ECM is using, you just will not get the best results and maintain them. Some engines do better than others but even with just small amounts of HHO the computer will overtime figure it out if you are getting any gains and will finally make changes that will take it away. When finished this should take all the guess work out of tuning and can be done by someone who at least can read and follow instructions and does not have to be a first rate mechanic/tunner. It helps to understand the basic working of things though and will not be for everybody. I think this will be the simplest, cheapest, and best solution available for most HHO users. Tuning is not that complex either and should not take much time to get good gains. It will though take more time to tune for exceptional gains but the results will really be worth it.

[Sodbuster]

Mad, This is great we are running the same rigs just one year apart, all the equipment is Identical so we are on the same page >> cool :D only deferents we have is our HHO set up and if we are flowing close to the same amount of HHO than again we can compare apples to apples..nice!
This spider injection system... not familiar with it, but than again I have been out of the automotive realm of thing`s for some time, not keeping up with technology, half the time I'm like.... SaY wHaT, I'm going to look into this maybe something to look into if we have more fuel delivery control.

MyOld >>> you no I'm ready for whatever solution you may have, prototype or plug and play any time your ready.

I'm thinking seriously of shipping my ECM of to this guy so he can widen this operating window on the 02`s... well never no if it works until we give it a shot. This has been a problem for me for years via my fuel that I utilize, HHO or no HHO I really want my rig staying away from open loop unless there is a plan to keep from dumping fuel.

On the flip side I installed a second alternator and I will have some pics up soon , wait to see how I did it ....your never going to believe how easy it was installing two alternators on the same bracket:cool: Going to run dual yellow tops, original battery location will run the truck and a dry cell and the second battery will run only the second dry cell that way no relay`s or isolators will be needed, both alternators are at 110 amps each.

Thinking out loud once again.... by any chance is there a aftermarket spacer plate that you all may no of that if I remove the upper throttle body on this motor and replace it with a spacer plate to allow you to run a 4 barrel. If we back up a few years say from 1986 to 1994 the old style throttle body with the two injectors on top of the throttle body there was a three hole bolt pattern. I'm thinking there was a aftermarket adapter plate that would allow you to bolt a 4BRL to that bolt pattern. Also do you all no if the bolt pattern back than is to what it is now on this 1998 vortec, to me it looks the same?

Last but not least.... guys any information I post is only what I am seeing, my intentions are to post only facts and not to sugar coat anything. I want so bad to be successful and accomplish my goals. If I post BS than we all take two steps back and we all accomplish nothing. You folks have been so kind@helpful and on board with the truth and that speaks a thousand words so again thanks for your time.... Greg

[Madsceintist]

I'm thinking seriously of shipping my ECM of to this guy so he can widen this operating window on the 02`s... well never no if it works until we give it a shot. This has been a problem for me for years via my fuel that I utilize, HHO or no HHO I really want my rig staying away from open loop unless there is a plan to keep from dumping fuel.
Thinking out loud once again.... by any chance is there a aftermarket spacer plate that you all may no of that if I remove the upper throttle body on this motor and replace it with a spacer plate to allow you to run a 4 barrel. If we back up a few years say from 1986 to 1994 the old style throttle body with the two injectors on top of the throttle body there was a three hole bolt pattern. I'm thinking there was a aftermarket adapter plate that would allow you to bolt a 4BRL to that bolt pattern. Also do you all no if the bolt pattern back than is to what it is now on this 1998 vortec, to me it looks the same?



At least you can always get your ECM reflashed at the dealer if its not working like you want.

As to the adapter you want, NOT happening. The TBI had an adapter but for what point, your trying to pull the air of a 4 bbl thru the hole of a 2 bbl. ????

Here's two intakes I've used for the Vortec heads in our year trucks, Edelbrock 2913 or Summit SUM 226018. These are really nice to use. As well as the HEI distributor from the mid 80's so you have full control over timing. I made a regulator to use a carb. on these without having to cut any lines, wires or change the pump. It gives the carb. max. 12 psi and sends the rest back to the tank, and is adjustable. (Stock tank, pump, lines and wiring). Of course going this route you have check engine light as you by-pass all the sensors but you can get some real power out of the Vortec this way!

[Sodbuster]

At least you can always get your ECM reflashed at the dealer if its not working like you want.

As to the adapter you want, NOT happening. The TBI had an adapter but for what point, your trying to pull the air of a 4 bbl thru the hole of a 2 bbl. ????

Here's two intakes I've used for the Vortec heads in our year trucks, Edelbrock 2913 or Summit SUM 226018. These are really nice to use. As well as the HEI distributor from the mid 80's so you have full control over timing. I made a regulator to use a carb. on these without having to cut any lines, wires or change the pump. It gives the carb. max. 12 psi and sends the rest back to the tank, and is adjustable. (Stock tank, pump, lines and wiring). Of course going this route you have check engine light as you by-pass all the sensors but you can get some real power out of the Vortec this way!

Yes sir = Quote @ post reply :D I was thinking the older TBI 86 to 94 were 2BRL holes, matter fact yes they were. But I was thinking the Vortec with the plastic plenum was a spread bore for this wide throttle body but I have never pulled the throttle body of this plenum only pulled the hole unit to replace the intake gasket.... need to find out FO SHO.

This is something I seriously want to investigate if by any chance this plastic plenum is even close to a spread bore and If it is ... and the bolt pattern is the same as the older 86 to 94 than a adapter plate may work "if" there is a adapter plate available and I bet there is, there was tons of hot rod after market stuff back in this ERA.

So "if" all these >> ideas match @ line up.. and "if" this plastic plenum will flow both fuel and air and feed combustion than we may be on to something just need to pull the throttle body and find out for sure unless you can verify it only has 2 holes than were done... it won't work.

A 4 BRL Rochester Quadrajet is the way I would go, this carb is so universal and jetting is Simple Simon. Matter fact I still have a new electric choke in my box that has got to be 30 years old. We could jet this thing down so the the truck will hardly run and than poor on the HHO with these BaDD AZZ dry cells. We would eliminate all the headaches with sensors and be able to move on. Also like you said ... Mad install the old school HEI and go mechanical advance. Three wires total: one for the electric choke, one for the HEI, and one for the AC idle up.

I really don't want to go with pulling my plenum and go with a intake but if all els fails than I'm on it, much rather save what I got and go with a bolt on app. There is also a cast Iron Marine Vortec intake that also will do the job, guys use these on there street stockers with great success, however a light weight aluminum intake is so nice to install.

My thoughts for now are going with what I have to work with >>> I perfer the EFI <<< ..and make it work, BUT !! I want to be ready for plan B :confused:

[Sodbuster]

Dang it.... no way this late model plastic plenum will work adapted over to carb.. not possible.

But I found this>>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tri-Power-Carb-Big-Rochester-Intake-adapter-plate-to-Small-2G-Carburetor-/260854598666?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessorie s&hash=item3cbc254c0a&vxp=mtr

[Madsceintist]

I have a 2 bbl motorcraft that gets better control and power than a 4 bbl. Quadrapuke. Like I said why for you pull 4 bbl. worth of air thru 2 bbl. holes, make no sense to me:D:D:D:
That adaptor for the 3 bolt TBI intake is to go to a carb. but not the 4bbl., you can go from a 2 bbl. to a 4 bbl with another adapter but WHY ??????????:confused:
And as you fond No plenum adapters ......... !!!!!!!!
You DO NOT WANT TO PUT GASOLINE ON TO PLASTIC, its not feasible. Not those intakes anyhow. So what you seem to want would be the Summit intake I mention. Also you would be so much happier if you used an Edelbrock rather than that Quadrajet.

[Sodbuster]

Yea going to ditch the carb idea for now... still working on plan A

Threw a code today PO121 going to report it to my ECM builder and see what he says. If he can widen the window on the 02 sensors may go that rout and take it from there.

[myoldyourgold]

[QUOTE]Threw a code today PO121 /QUOTE]

Greg isn't that a throttle position code? Maybe you have a bad throttle position module.

[Sodbuster]

Hey your right it is, I was just assuming it was a 02 code ... cleared it and did not even think about it.

Scanner showed up today, check it out first thing in the am and I let you no.
Thanks for catching that fro me.

[Madsceintist]

[QUOTE]Threw a code today PO121 /QUOTE]

Greg isn't that a throttle position code? Maybe you have a bad throttle position module.



Sod;
Just so you know the transmission is shift operated by the TPS, so if your having funny or long shifts its likely got a bad TPS. If it goes completely out your tans(automatic) wont shift til you hit about 4500 rpm then it'll hit like a brick. Been there done that a few times, just ask your local or top notch trans shop. Also I've seen long crank times before it starts for the same problem even when the scanner showed good values. Changed the TPS and the problems gone. Now that's not always true for all situations but It stump others till it got here.

[Sodbuster]

[QUOTE=myoldyourgold;50436]



Sod;
Just so you know the transmission is shift operated by the TPS, so if your having funny or long shifts its likely got a bad TPS. If it goes completely out your tans(automatic) wont shift til you hit about 4500 rpm then it'll hit like a brick. Been there done that a few times, just ask your local or top notch trans shop. Also I've seen long crank times before it starts for the same problem even when the scanner showed good values. Changed the TPS and the problems gone. Now that's not always true for all situations but It stump others till it got here.

Mad,

Dang you called that one>>> my trans for last few weeks has been hitting hard into the first shift :confused: I was just thinking it was the shift kit that was installed when I had in built couple years back, but it never hit like that.. But yea trans has been acting really weird lately, thanks for the heads up!!!

[Sodbuster]

Key on engine of: TPS ... 0.55 or 0%

Mash the foot feed... 0.55 to 4.49 or 0 to 100%

[Sodbuster]

update: " Fuel pump pressure regulated via a PWM".

"No voltage regulated" 13.8 volts at 57psi than increase throttle jumps to 60psi

"Regulated voltage" lower voltage to 7.5/8.0 volts pressure drops to 50 psi you can continue to lower voltage to 6.5 but the motor wants to stumble, and anything lower than 6.5 volts the truck needs to be moving under a light throttle.

Also I doubled the dry cells = 2x 38 plate cells at 4 LPM at 25 amps per cell.

Not sure whats up with the TPS :confused: values are good so maybe it glitched probably just replace it with a new one.

Also running dual battery's, 140 AMP ALT, dual PWM`s, and dual Bubbler's.

[TwinTurbo]

Key on engine of: TPS ... 0.55 or 0%

Mash the foot feed... 0.55 to 4.49 or 0 to 100%

It is common for a potentiometer to read properly at ends of the travel, you need to watch what the numbers do the whole way thru the cycle, slowly depress and release the foot feed while watching and make sure the numbers smoothly increase or decrease. Any hang up or erratic reading would indicate a problem.

[Madsceintist]

Key on engine of: TPS ... 0.55 or 0%

Mash the foot feed... 0.55 to 4.49 or 0 to 100%


Sod;
Yes watch for a steady and gradual movement of your TPS, it should read steady during the first 1/4 which is where they usually wear out. Its likely to jump from .58 to somewhere around .67, if you at any point cant get it to a number you want then change it. When you test it go very slow up then back down. Like I said however, I had some test fine and not be good!! But you said you had trans issues or what seemed like, Yes ? Change it ...

[Sodbuster]

Thanks guys !

Changed out the TPS .... problem solved :)

OK guys so far so good, I have added a second 38 plate cell and doubled my output to 4LPM I cant get over how well this engine is running, however if I lower the fuel pump voltage say to 8 volts and stand at Idle for any length of time I start throwing codes Po171,PO174,PO122,P1122 = looks to be all 02 codes. But running down the road both HWY and around town no codes just at Idle for any length of time. So I am thinking seriously of sending out the ECM to have the 02 sensor circuit widen to keep this from happening.

After I added the second cell I noticed a few things.
Engine temps are crazy low 160-165
Performance :eek: truck has 250,000 miles on it and it runs like it has a new motor.
The more HHO added the better it gets>>> but the more problems to solve as far as shutting fuel delivery down and check engine light/open loop.
So far the DEFIE is working the way it is supposed to "but" only running down the road, at standing Idle for any length of time = check engine light ON= open loop.
These rectangular tanks are great on the bench but road conditions not so great. I cant run any thing more than a gallon in each tank, the sloshing back and fourth is a huge problem, I think Round PVC is the way to go. Also the line connections do to vibration at the tank are a problem, thread thickness to threaded connection is not enough. The round PVC bubbler's work perfect with the PVC end caps and there is no sloshing with bobbers in the bubbler's.
I am going to design my own PVC supply tanks and incorporate clear PVC at full water levels for monitoring. Also I want to see at least three gallons of water instead of two.

What are your thoughts on this convertion going from the OEM Central Sequential Fuel injection to this ==)===> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Delphi-FJ10566-Spider-Injector-V8-MFI-Multiport-OEM-/270909594919?hash=item3f13785d27&item=270909594919&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr or A/C Delco ==)===> http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-0-5-7-GM-SEFI-UPDATED-96-01-Spider-Injector-ALL-NEW-/310342749273?hash=item4841de8c59&item=310342749273&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtrand here is the explanation on how it works..... http://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/Article/36718/living_under_the_hood_diagnosing_central_port_fuel _injection.aspx

[Madsceintist]

Thanks guys !

Changed out the TPS .... problem solved :)

OK guys so far so good, I have added a second 38 plate cell and doubled my output to 4LPM I cant get over how well this engine is running, however if I lower the fuel pump voltage say to 8 volts and stand at Idle for any length of time I start throwing codes Po171,PO174,PO122,P1122 = looks to be all 02 codes. But running down the road both HWY and around town no codes just at Idle for any length of time. So I am thinking seriously of sending out the ECM to have the 02 sensor circuit widen to keep this from happening.

After I added the second cell I noticed a few things.
Engine temps are crazy low 160-165
Performance :eek: truck has 250,000 miles on it and it runs like it has a new motor.
The more HHO added the better it gets>>> but the more problems to solve as far as shutting fuel delivery down and check engine light/open loop.
So far the DEFIE is working the way it is supposed to "but" only running down the road, at standing Idle for any length of time = check engine light ON= open loop.
These rectangular tanks are great on the bench but road conditions not so great. I cant run any thing more than a gallon in each tank, the sloshing back and fourth is a huge problem, I think Round PVC is the way to go. Also the line connections do to vibration at the tank are a problem, thread thickness to threaded connection is not enough. The round PVC bubbler's work perfect with the PVC end caps and there is no sloshing with bobbers in the bubbler's.
I am going to design my own PVC supply tanks and incorporate clear PVC at full water levels for monitoring. Also I want to see at least three gallons of water instead of two.

What are your thoughts on this convertion going from the OEM Central Sequential Fuel injection to this ==)===> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Delphi-FJ10566-Spider-Injector-V8-MFI-Multiport-OEM-/270909594919?hash=item3f13785d27&item=270909594919&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr or A/C Delco ==)===> http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-0-5-7-GM-SEFI-UPDATED-96-01-Spider-Injector-ALL-NEW-/310342749273?hash=item4841de8c59&item=310342749273&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtrand here is the explanation on how it works..... http://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/Article/36718/living_under_the_hood_diagnosing_central_port_fuel _injection.aspx

Just got back from Long Island trip, way behind on reading! :eek:
A few things there Sod;
Congratulations...... Also the second injector is the GM upgrade for the injection, works amazing but stupid high price. I use the same upgrade from Advance.
The bobblers are good I suppose, but i like the foam packaging eggs with stainless mesh to hold it down. Zero splashing !
The idling codes are because you cut back so much fuel and your putting in the same amount of HHO as if your driving. You could do what your thinking of with the widening of the range. I'm telling you and I've said it before, forget the codes the O2 sensors and messing with the computer. Unplug the O2's, let the computer run in limp mode and run it on the basic programming that runs the truck. You get a basic fuel setting that the computer wont mess with related to the O2 sensors, yes it still uses the MAP and TPS ! You go from there and cut back fuel, add HHO, adjust timing and restrict a little air in(pvc). I have a piece of pvc adapted down to 2 inches from 3 inches, it seems to change the MAP readings and helps a lot.

One more thing you might be interested in Sod;
Take the intake air temp sensor out of the duct and leave it out side of the path of intake air. Plug the hole with something that wont get sucked in. The hotter air around the engine will show the computer you have a hotter ambient intake temp and will help cut back more fuel through the computer.
Also the more HHO you run the cooler the engine will run, on the Toyota, I've had to take out the thermostat and drill a hole(1/8) in it to help pass some coolant as it wasn't opening at all.

Look forward to hearing from you as to the progress. Later...........

[myoldyourgold]

I have just a few thoughts on this. Nothing I haven't said before though. Sod you are doing everything right but IMHOP the long way around. One controller will do everything you are doing and only takes a few minutes to tune once installed, and all your problems are solved. You do not need HHO at Idle. That is where the biggest imbalance is so turn it off. You also might not need both reactors running all the time if sized right, which the controller can handle. Shutting down at idle or one of the reactors when not needed, saves a little fuel because the alternator is not having to put out so much and keeps the computer happy at the same time at idle. I run two reactors one puts out more than the other and turn them on and off based on the demand of the engine and trigger points are tunable. The cranking down of the fuel pump seams to be working in your vehicle but will not in some unless you interrupt the signal and change it that is being sent to the computer from the pump. I have been through this so many times I can not count. As soon as the controller is ready I will let you know. The final testing is being done hopefully today but I have said that more than once already actually thought I would be done yesterday. LOL Great job! It is good to hear from someone who confirms what you know to be right. There are a few additions that you will need to do if you shut down at idle and you can PM me if you want the details.

[Weapon_R]

Just got back from Long Island trip, way behind on reading! :eek:
A few things there Sod;
Congratulations...... Also the second injector is the GM upgrade for the injection, works amazing but stupid high price. I use the same upgrade from Advance.
The bobblers are good I suppose, but i like the foam packaging eggs with stainless mesh to hold it down. Zero splashing !
The idling codes are because you cut back so much fuel and your putting in the same amount of HHO as if your driving. You could do what your thinking of with the widening of the range. I'm telling you and I've said it before, forget the codes the O2 sensors and messing with the computer. Unplug the O2's, let the computer run in limp mode and run it on the basic programming that runs the truck. You get a basic fuel setting that the computer wont mess with related to the O2 sensors, yes it still uses the MAP and TPS ! You go from there and cut back fuel, add HHO, adjust timing and restrict a little air in(pvc). I have a piece of pvc adapted down to 2 inches from 3 inches, it seems to change the MAP readings and helps a lot.

One more thing you might be interested in Sod;
Take the intake air temp sensor out of the duct and leave it out side of the path of intake air. Plug the hole with something that wont get sucked in. The hotter air around the engine will show the computer you have a hotter ambient intake temp and will help cut back more fuel through the computer.
Also the more HHO you run the cooler the engine will run, on the Toyota, I've had to take out the thermostat and drill a hole(1/8) in it to help pass some coolant as it wasn't opening at all.

Look forward to hearing from you as to the progress. Later...........

Mad great post. Finally some who knows what he is talking about. I dont understand why everyone fears the engine check light. Lol

MyGold what will be the price of that controller and how many input outputs does it have?
Is it programmable and if so via what method???

[myoldyourgold]

MyGold what will be the price of that controller and how many input outputs does it have?
Is it programmable and if so via what method???

The final configuration has not been decided on yet so inputs and outputs are not fixed and price has not been set. There is basically an unlimited amount of things it can control with some limitations on when items are on or off but not the number of items that require the same on and off. This is not trying to directly compete with AEM or Apexi or other piggy back tuners so is not programmable but tunable mechanically similar to an EFIE. It does many things that the AEM & Apexi are capable of doing but are related to HHO which has limitations. It could be used to increase HP with no regard to conserving fuel using HHO. To do that more effectively it might require a small add-on though. That will be investigated down the road. The product is still a ways off from actual production though, but the initial testing should be finished very soon and then I should be able to give you more details. Lots to finalize yet.

Running in limp mode is only an option for experimentation and yes a solution for many things. It is in no way something you could promote to the general public though. Even electronic controllers have a very difficult road to get any kind of official approval but theoretically could be possible where limp mode would never have a chance.

[Madsceintist]

Mad great post. Finally some who knows what he is talking about. I dont understand why everyone fears the engine check light. Lol

MyGold what will be the price of that controller and how many input outputs does it have?
Is it programmable and if so via what method???


Weapon R;
In most states, big cities have emission testing so the check engine light can't be on or have any codes related to emissions, otherwise you will not pass. Several states have a visual check and pass as well. I live in a county that doesn't have emission testing but the adjacent 2 counties around me do! I'm less than a mile from one. :D

Here's something that a lot of people don't know..........

The Toyota is going to be inspected by the state(same place where they inspect salvage vehicles), so that it can be classified as an alternative fuel vehicle to omit the emission inspections. I already have the forms but the windshield is cracked badly and has to to be changed, and I just hadn't worried with it. This way it can be registered anywhere in the state no inspection. Just because it is getting this doesn't mean anyone can pass this, the car can run and be driven on no gas which gives it the ability to pass. The suburb can't do this as it runs on gas all the time, even if it gets twice the mileage it should.


By the way, the engine light is very useful in the fact that it can tell you if something else is a problem, i,e; trans codes other engine problems, some body codes, so on. Unfortunately I see some costumers that will drive for years with it on and not know why! If it is on check it ! Fix the problem not related to HHO, and go ...........

[myoldyourgold]

Mad keep us posted on your progress with getting the Toyota passed as an alternative fuel. I am sure all of us will be interested.

[Weapon_R]

The final configuration has not been decided on yet so inputs and outputs are not fixed and price has not been set. There is basically an unlimited amount of things it can control with some limitations on when items are on or off but not the number of items that require the same on and off. This is not trying to directly compete with AEM or Apexi or other piggy back tuners so is not programmable but tunable mechanically similar to an EFIE. It does many things that the AEM & Apexi are capable of doing but are related to HHO which has limitations. It could be used to increase HP with no regard to conserving fuel using HHO. To do that more effectively it might require a small add-on though. That will be investigated down the road. The product is still a ways off from actual production though, but the initial testing should be finished very soon and then I should be able to give you more details. Lots to finalize yet.

Running in limp mode is only an option for experimentation and yes a solution for many things. It is in no way something you could promote to the general public though. Even electronic controllers have a very difficult road to get any kind of official approval but theoretically could be possible where limp mode would never have a chance.

Please Keep me posted.

[Weapon_R]

Weapon R;
In most states, big cities have emission testing so the check engine light can't be on or have any codes related to emissions, otherwise you will not pass. Several states have a visual check and pass as well. I live in a county that doesn't have emission testing but the adjacent 2 counties around me do! I'm less than a mile from one. :D

Here's something that a lot of people don't know..........

The Toyota is going to be inspected by the state(same place where they inspect salvage vehicles), so that it can be classified as an alternative fuel vehicle to omit the emission inspections. I already have the forms but the windshield is cracked badly and has to to be changed, and I just hadn't worried with it. This way it can be registered anywhere in the state no inspection. Just because it is getting this doesn't mean anyone can pass this, the car can run and be driven on no gas which gives it the ability to pass. The suburb can't do this as it runs on gas all the time, even if it gets twice the mileage it should.


By the way, the engine light is very useful in the fact that it can tell you if something else is a problem, i,e; trans codes other engine problems, some body codes, so on. Unfortunately I see some costumers that will drive for years with it on and not know why! If it is on check it ! Fix the problem not related to HHO, and go ...........

Mad you are correct. However my point is one should be able to return vehicle to stock within minutes for an inspection. That being the case I would not worry so much about it. But no such inspection here. Lol

[ultra_efficient]

Hi Folks new to the forum

Need some input on a Idea I have... I just purchased a 38 plate dry cell from Green Fuel H20. This is the big rig set up and I am going to install this system on my 98 chevy 5.7 pick up 4X4.
I have a Idea that I need some input, I want to put a PWM on the fuel pump so I can decrees fuel delivery at the same time increase HHO. Sounds logical to me and this is why I am asking, I have not seen this done and why I don't no. You would think if your going to add HHO you need to remove fuel delivery, re mapping is only going to do so much and your still going to have the same amount of fuel being delivered so why not take it away and add more HHO.

Another question I run E85, and my rig is a none flex fuel and I have been doing it for 8 years and logged over 150,000 miles on E85. Half the time my rig is stuck in closed loop with the check engine light on. My fuel mileage is not great but I love the performance and I believe Alcohol is a good solution to alternative fuel and I support them. Anyways I want to be able to supplement HHO for my fuel lose and experiment from there :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpKeEEwGff0