Unipolar Field Theory

[BioFarmer93]

As I get older, I find that certain pathways of thought that I have become too comfortable with must occasionally be abandoned and new paths forged through the jumbled jungle that is my brain.

Some of you may have noticed that I have had very little if anything to say about current density since the great bipolar/unipolar amperage computation debacle a couple of weeks ago. It was cause for a great deal of consternation, and then meditation on a range of info, concepts, and gut feelings.

So, without further ado, this is what I figured out about unipolar reactors...

Because of the fact that multiple plates of a given polarity residing in a single group are hardwired together, their entire emissive surface area, meaning both sides of inner plates and the in-facing side of end plates, must be considered as the area of Faraday calculation for the 1/2 amp per square inch maximum.

When I realized this, it suddenly became very clear why Larry struggled at 115 amps to get the Mag Beast to break 102F, and why the original BioBeast when getting blasted with 145 amps was not even discernibly above ambient.
I'll break it down for you... The original BioBeast had 4 groups, with 21 plates per group- and to keep things clear, simply think of it as 20 plate FACES of EACH polarity. Each plate FACE has 45sq.in. of emmisive, or wet area. Now comes the truly mind numbing part that popped my eyes open from a deep meditative state.
20 FACES X 45sq.in each = 900sq.in.... 900sq.in. of a single polarity in a single group. Now, you know what happens next, right? I thought so... We assign 1/2 amp per square inch to that number, and come up with an astonishing 450 amps to operate it at full current density.

To put this in another context for easier visualization, think of it like this...
+______[+-]_[+-]_[+-]_[+-]______- Where each plate, 8 of them for the sake of visualization in this instance, is 900sq.in.. From an electrical standpoint, this is what is happening in a unipolar reactor.

Apologies for taking so long to gain enlightenment.;)

[iger13]

What would you say about Voltage and Current Leakage in unipolar reactors?
Still waiting for your opinion about my work. Thank you.

[aceras624]

I dont have time to analyze that paragraph right now :( are you saying that you need a LOT of amperage to maintain a similar HHO production as compared to a bipolar cell? or that this cell is capable and BETTER than a bipolar cell of using HUGE amperage to make HUGE HHO? hmmm had enough time to type this but not to reread that paragraph. Why are girlfriends always so bad with time?!??!?

[Darrell]

As I get older, I find that certain pathways of thought that I have become too comfortable with must occasionally be abandoned and new paths forged through the jumbled jungle that is my brain.

Some of you may have noticed that I have had very little if anything to say about current density since the great bipolar/unipolar amperage computation debacle a couple of weeks ago. It was cause for a great deal of consternation, and then meditation on a range of info, concepts, and gut feelings.

So, without further ado, this is what I figured out about unipolar reactors...

Because of the fact that multiple plates of a given polarity residing in a single group are hardwired together, their entire emissive surface area, meaning both sides of inner plates and the in-facing side of end plates, must be considered as the area of Faraday calculation for the 1/2 amp per square inch maximum.



When I realized this, it suddenly became very clear why Larry struggled at 115 amps to get the Mag Beast to break 102F, and why the original BioBeast when getting blasted with 145 amps was not even discernibly above ambient.
I'll break it down for you... The original BioBeast had 4 groups, with 21 plates per group- and to keep things clear, simply think of it as 20 plate FACES of EACH polarity. Each plate FACE has 45sq.in. of emmisive, or wet area. Now comes the truly mind numbing part that popped my eyes open from a deep meditative state.
20 FACES X 45sq.in each = 900sq.in.... 900sq.in. of a single polarity in a single group. Now, you know what happens next, right? I thought so... We assign 1/2 amp per square inch to that number, and come up with an astonishing 450 amps to operate it at full current density.

To put this in another context for easier visualization, think of it like this...
+______[+-]_[+-]_[+-]_[+-]______- Where each plate, 8 of them for the sake of visualization in this instance, is 900sq.in.. From an electrical standpoint, this is what is happening in a unipolar reactor.

Apologies for taking so long to gain enlightenment.;)

This is the way I see it and can be very misconstruded or just explained differently because uni's are so different from bipolar reactors.
Lets say that you have 3 plates in each cell group like this -+-in a unipolar setup. That is 2 negitive plate surfaces being active or facing the positive making gas. Both of those plates have 20 square inches (or 40" in total) of active plate surface area. 20 amps is the .5 amps that should be applied when using this setup. If you want more amps on a uni you must add another plate like this
-+-+ 4 or plates gives you 3 surfaces to give .5 amps per every square inch of plate surface area in this senario would be 30 amps that could be applied.

Now to confuse you all more, unipolar designs are more efficent because the power run on the outsides of the plates and not thru like a Bipolar plate. so more than .5 can be applied to some degree and I believe this depends on the quality of the build and prep to the plates but I won't get into that right now.

Now with Bipolar setups it is much different. If each of your plate have 20 square inches of plate surface area, then only 10 amps can be applied to each cell group of plates. -NNNNN+.

Now if you add a second group then you can add a 10 more amps.
-NNNNN+NNNNN- for a total of 20 amps.

Hope this make sence for you all and I think there is allot of ways that it could be explained or calculated. Just thought I would give some input on what I have seen during my testing.

Carter you can give some insight on how you see it and we can have 3 rounded veiws of what going on.. :) Darrell

[BioFarmer93]

Darrell,
Yes, it could be explained a lot of different ways, but you got it in one...:)

[BioFarmer93]

I dont have time to analyze that paragraph right now :( are you saying that you need a LOT of amperage to maintain a similar HHO production as compared to a bipolar cell? or that this cell is capable and BETTER than a bipolar cell of using HUGE amperage to make HUGE HHO? hmmm had enough time to type this but not to reread that paragraph. Why are girlfriends always so bad with time?!??!?


Are you saying that you need a LOT of amperage to maintain a similar HHO production as compared to a bipolar cell?
No, not in the least- how did you get that??? Unipolar's actually make a little better use of the available current.

-or that this cell is capable and BETTER than a bipolar cell of using HUGE amperage to make HUGE HHO?
Bingo! Now you get it...

had enough time to type this but not to reread that paragraph. Why are girlfriends always so bad with time?
Because girlfriends posses the magic muffin, and know that virtually any transgression will be forgotten at the mention of the muffin...:D

[BioFarmer93]

What would you say about Voltage and Current Leakage in unipolar reactors?
Still waiting for your opinion about my work. Thank you.

What would I say? That it is minimal to non existent in most designs..

My opinion of your work? Why in the world would you be waiting for my opinion of your work? You obviously know you do beautiful work, your craftsmanship is excellent. One thing does stand out in particular, and that is the very economical use of space in your layout. In your explanation though, I found it confusing that you made so many references to neutral plates while explaining a unipolar reactor. One thing does bother me a bit though, and that is that I can not find one of these in the on-line Dwyer catalog...

Edit: - Also your gas production is too high for the amperage used. Your desiccant crystals appear to be saturated, perhaps you might consider getting about 4 times as much as you are using in the video, of fresh dry desiccant crystals, letting your unit come up to temperature without running the output through the desiccant, and then for the LPM measurement, run the gas through the desiccant. Or better yet, just make a eudiometer so we can all compare apples to apples...

[Havens78]

How it was explained to me by the mentors here was fairly simple to understand on building a unipolar system. If we say we're going to make 1 liter of gas a minute at 13 amps then 13 sq. in. of surface area will make .5 lpm according to the concept of .5 amps per sq. in. But a unipolar setup is always in series so 3 lpm would be 39 amps, 4lpm would be 52...

7 groups of plates divide the voltage the same way that 6 neutrals do in a bipolar setup. To make the above .5 lpm we would need 2 plates in a group which would give us 1 cell. 3 plates in each group would give you 2 cells or 1 lpm, or 4 plates for 1.5 lpm. You simply add a plate to each group for every .5 lpm you need in your setup. Depending on how large your plate surface is you can go as big as you want for your needs.

please correct me if i'm wrong, but this was the most simple way I could explain it.

[BioFarmer93]

Havens.... 14 amps.:D

[iger13]

[QUOTE=BioFarmer93;49049]
My opinion of your work? Why in the world would you be waiting for my opinion of your work? You obviously know you do beautiful work, your craftsmanship is excellent. One thing does stand out in particular, and that is the very economical use of space in your layout. In your explanation though, I found it confusing that you made so many references to neutral plates while explaining a unipolar reactor. One thing does bother me a bit though, and that is that I can not find one of these in the on-line Dwyer catalog...
You did wonderful job with BioBeast, it looks to me you have knowledge and experience it's why I respect your opinion and hope to get advice how it can be improved.
It is not my explanation, it's opinion of the owner of the website, who was very kind to put my work on his website
You can't find flow meter in catalog, you need to call them to order, it's custom-made product.
And so many questions, I can't find the answers.

[aceras624]

hey Mr Magic Muffin ;) how do unipolar cells make better use of the current than bipolar cells?

[BioFarmer93]

They don't force polarity shifts in the middle of a piece of stainless steel and they don't leak current like a sieve as bipolar reactors do... Anything else, grasshopper?;)

[Havens78]

Havens.... 14 amps.:D

Okay so maybe my 13 is a little optimistic, but its the goal i'm shooting for.

[BioFarmer93]

Go for it brother! I hope you can make I happen..

[aceras624]

They don't force polarity shifts in the middle of a piece of stainless steel and they don't leak current like a sieve as bipolar reactors do... Anything else, grasshopper?;)

is there any evidence that the polarity shifts make for less efficient use? and by how much if so? Not doubting you, just curious about the little things :)

also, how do bipolar cells "leak current like a sieve"??? I feel like youre going to say wet cells do but I was assuming we're only talking about dry cells

hahahahahaha wet cells hahahahahahahaha ;)

[BioFarmer93]

Dude, you're wearing me out.. Going to advise that you make use of the archives, OK? Happy Reading...

[aceras624]

some "mentor" you are

[aceras624]

cant find anything about bipolar vs unipolar or bipolars "leaking current" in dry cells or polarity shifts. maybe im using the search engine wrong but I guess Im pretty much done with this forum anyway :) dueces

[BioFarmer93]

some "mentor" you are

Some "user" you are...

[BioFarmer93]

cant find anything about bipolar vs unipolar or bipolars "leaking current" in dry cells or polarity shifts. maybe im using the search engine wrong but I guess Im pretty much done with this forum anyway :) dueces

If you'll recall, I advised you to read, not just use the search function in a limited phrase search for 10 minutes. As to your second statement, I'll say that I for one am a bit relieved, because since you've been here you have presented yourself as a lazy smart mouthed brat- regardless of what your chronological age may actually be. :D dueces

[aceras624]

Bio you may think youre witty but youre just a cyber bully. Im not the first one youve chased away from this site with your rude "im better than you" attitude and Im sure I wont be the last. Its people like you that dont understand what forums are about. Your poor attitude will limit the future of HHO and I feel sorry for you. To everyone else, its been fun, I will miss you all but one jerk is more than I need when Im asking simple honest questions to whats supposed to be a "mentor". Shame on you admins for letting people like Bio frequent your site.

[BioFarmer93]

Bio you may think youre witty but youre just a cyber bully. Im not the first one youve chased away from this site with your rude "im better than you" attitude and Im sure I wont be the last. Its people like you that dont understand what forums are about. Your poor attitude will limit the future of HHO and I feel sorry for you. To everyone else, its been fun, I will miss you all but one jerk is more than I need when Im asking simple honest questions to whats supposed to be a "mentor". Shame on you admins for letting people like Bio frequent your site.

It's easy to pout and throw around the term "cyber bully" when someone calls you out for being rude or sarcastic in someones thread that you're not contributing to. I've spent enough time getting beat up by real cyber bullies to recognize that I'm not one- but you're entitled to your opinion. The people that I have "chased away" from this forum chose to leave rather than have their rudeness, sarcasm or laziness pointed out to them on the occasions when it occurred- and if you read a little closer you might notice that I didn't have to act alone in those cases. (That case? I really only remember one- sorry..) I'm honestly sorry that you think that I think I'm better than you- if you actually knew me you would realize that I'm very egalitarian in my outlook- much to the consternation of some of my more conservative friends.
As far as not understanding what the forum is about, don't be absurd, of course I do, it's about sharing HHO knowledge and information, it however is not about inserting ones self into a thread just to interject a pointedly sarcastic comment simply because you don't care for one of the people in the thread. My attitude is not poor by any standard but yours, and you needn't feel sorry for me, but if you're sincere I'll PM you my PayPal acc# and you can make a contribution. I feel certain it would do wonders for my poor attitude. As for being a jerk, it's not a full time occupation, heck, I hardly get to do it much anymore, but I do dust off the ol' cape from time to time when the situation calls for it (as in your case). Besides it's not a job I take lightly- Jerk powers are a grave responsibility and must be wielded with great care, notice how I haven't called you a single dirty name or used a dirty word in this? Now THAT'S responsibility! Take care, have a nice life, learn lots about HHO and make us all proud, and who knows, there may be a forum out in www land that wont care how rude you are and welcome you with open arms...:D:D:D

[Darrell]

Bio you may think youre witty but youre just a cyber bully. Im not the first one youve chased away from this site with your rude "im better than you" attitude and Im sure I wont be the last. Its people like you that dont understand what forums are about. Your poor attitude will limit the future of HHO and I feel sorry for you. To everyone else, its been fun, I will miss you all but one jerk is more than I need when Im asking simple honest questions to whats supposed to be a "mentor". Shame on you admins for letting people like Bio frequent your site.

Let me just say a couple of things about this forum or any other forum for that matter.
First of all this thread is about unipolar field theory, that means it's a theory or a point of veiw based on allot of testing by those willing and have put allot of hours in at the bench trying new things based on ideas or expantion of others thoughts about how to build the most efficent reactors possible.

Now if you think that everyone here has all the awnsers you are wrong. What you could do is take some of what is shared here and put it to test by the rather questioning or challenging everyone that goes out on a limb to share what they think is going on. Hell, some of the stuff I post maybe explained wrong or totaly wrong. But that is why sharing important so we can gain knowledge and try new things.

Take this for what it is worth and go build something then come back report what worked for you and what didn't so we can all move forward in our quest.

Oh and another thing, make sure you keep your mind open to those Newby's out there, for they have some of the best ideas sometimes because they think outside the box.


That's my two pennies. "D"

[aceras624]

It's easy to pout and throw around the term "cyber bully" when someone calls you out for being rude or sarcastic in someones thread that you're not contributing to. I've spent enough time getting beat up by real cyber bullies to recognize that I'm not one- but you're entitled to your opinion. The people that I have "chased away" from this forum chose to leave rather than have their rudeness, sarcasm or laziness pointed out to them on the occasions when it occurred- and if you read a little closer you might notice that I didn't have to act alone in those cases. (That case? I really only remember one- sorry..) I'm honestly sorry that you think that I think I'm better than you- if you actually knew me you would realize that I'm very egalitarian in my outlook- much to the consternation of some of my more conservative friends.
As far as not understanding what the forum is about, don't be absurd, of course I do, it's about sharing HHO knowledge and information, it however is not about inserting ones self into a thread just to interject a pointedly sarcastic comment simply because you don't care for one of the people in the thread. My attitude is not poor by any standard but yours, and you needn't feel sorry for me, but if you're sincere I'll PM you my PayPal acc# and you can make a contribution. I feel certain it would do wonders for my poor attitude. As for being a jerk, it's not a full time occupation, heck, I hardly get to do it much anymore, but I do dust off the ol' cape from time to time when the situation calls for it (as in your case). Besides it's not a job I take lightly- Jerk powers are a grave responsibility and must be wielded with great care, notice how I haven't called you a single dirty name or used a dirty word in this? Now THAT'S responsibility! Take care, have a nice life, learn lots about HHO and make us all proud, and who knows, there may be a forum out in www land that wont care how rude you are and welcome you with open arms...:D:D:D

to whom it may concern

although Bio and myself had a minor altercation in this thread, it is a small misunderstanding that has been resolved and should have no impact on this unipolar field theory thread. I appologize for comming off as anything other than a gentleman:)

Ace

[BioFarmer93]

As Ace said, all is well.. So let's start again- Hi there, welcome to the forum, my name is Gus...:)