scirockett
08-04-2008, 01:36 PM
Hello all -
I recently began experimenting with HHO and will soon begin integration into a vehicle. I've been watching many video's and seen many different ways to trick management, but i'm not impressed with how ANY of the tests were carried out!! I could pick every one apart and say the gains are stickly because the leaned out conditions, or are showing fuel gains associated with choke or warmup. here are a few thoughts.
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First load of BS: you get more vacuum when you rev the engine and therefore suck more HHO gas in.. are you serious?
before I get into this, here are two cases where 'vacuum', which should really be referred to as suction because a vac gauge will still read 0 psi (atmosphere, maybe just maybe -1 psi), may work as it is proportional to the engine airflow. This is if you install your HHO inlet UPSTREAM of the Throttle body on NA/Carbed cars, or upstream of the turbo/SC on forced induction cars.
On an NA car, if you have your HHO inlet in the intake manifold, or downstream of the throttle body, the vacuum pressure for HHO delivery is NOT ideal. Here's the deal. If you floor the car, you require the most fuel, but will provide the LEAST amount of vacuum! You just opened the TB so there is no vacuum. want to question that? well, diesels don't have a TB so they don't have any Vacuum. that's why diesel cars require vacuum pumps for brake boosting and diesel boost gauges only show boost, not vacuum. If you're using an 02 sensor mod, you ARE running your car lean at WOT and this IS dangerous!!
now, you're done racing grandma from the light, so you take your foot off the gas closing the TB. now you have TONS of vacuum, especially if your RPM's are still high. but you don't need any of that HHO now..
So IMO, it's a horrible idea to connect your HHO inlet downstream of the throttle body.
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next up: lack of ENGINE DATA under hho supplement. I'm suprised people are not blowing up more engines the way they carelessly seem to pull fuel from management..
lean = HOT = meltdown over time.
I have seen NO exhaust gas temp data.
NO narrowband let alone widebad O2 readings under HHO
no spark plug analysis after running HHO (spark plugs tell you a LOT!)
now I'm not just a sissy crying about this lack of data, I intend to test this myself, but really I'm hoping you guys have seen this data somewhere, or maybe want to test it your self and post it up here. Any data will help!!
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Tests like this make us look bad:
http://www.fuelfromh2o.com/
maybe watch the first video before reading on. seems convincing, eh?
well, besides his poor fuel control, one extremely important factor was left out. engine temperature..
So he starts this engine cold, shows how much fuel it consumes, shows the soot out the tailpipe, the adds HHO which makes it run twice as long on the same amount of fuel, and no soot out the tailpipe (plus we get water from the hho, ha ha ha).
soooo. this is easily explained by warmup of the motor, not the tiny amounts of HHO he's generating (hell, my first POS gen makes way more than that). The choke is closed causing it to consume more fuel for the first two minutes and put soot out the back. well, duh, it's rich because it's cold! Then the HHO is added, of course, at the same time the choke opens and leans it out, ie showing his less fuel consumption and cleaner burn..
plus, how does anyone magically get the carb jets to throw less fuel under the same venturi pressure without adjustment? they don't.
And the water coming out of the tailpipe? ! uh, that happens to every car when it warms up and burns out the condensation in the pipes. there's NO way that much water came from the puney amounts of HHO he put into the motor.
IMO, this test means nothing and hurts the HHO cause..
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So we need to know the burning characteristics are for HHO gas.
what will it do to a lean/stoik/rich mixture?
Since it causes a faster burn, do we have to retard timing? that won't help TQ or low end power. timing is usually advanced 6 deg at idle, and 30-40 deg at WOT. anyone seen HHO backfire in their car?
how do we regulate the HHO AF mixture? do we change generation amounts on teh fly too?
I'd like to come up with some tests for the integration. I have an 87' Scirocco Turbo with stand alone management and a wideband that I can use for testing. I can log anything management wise so we can get some good data to figure out how to TUNE a gas/HHO setup instead of just leaning it out..
So let's see that data and hear some ideas!!
I recently began experimenting with HHO and will soon begin integration into a vehicle. I've been watching many video's and seen many different ways to trick management, but i'm not impressed with how ANY of the tests were carried out!! I could pick every one apart and say the gains are stickly because the leaned out conditions, or are showing fuel gains associated with choke or warmup. here are a few thoughts.
------------------------------------------------------------------
First load of BS: you get more vacuum when you rev the engine and therefore suck more HHO gas in.. are you serious?
before I get into this, here are two cases where 'vacuum', which should really be referred to as suction because a vac gauge will still read 0 psi (atmosphere, maybe just maybe -1 psi), may work as it is proportional to the engine airflow. This is if you install your HHO inlet UPSTREAM of the Throttle body on NA/Carbed cars, or upstream of the turbo/SC on forced induction cars.
On an NA car, if you have your HHO inlet in the intake manifold, or downstream of the throttle body, the vacuum pressure for HHO delivery is NOT ideal. Here's the deal. If you floor the car, you require the most fuel, but will provide the LEAST amount of vacuum! You just opened the TB so there is no vacuum. want to question that? well, diesels don't have a TB so they don't have any Vacuum. that's why diesel cars require vacuum pumps for brake boosting and diesel boost gauges only show boost, not vacuum. If you're using an 02 sensor mod, you ARE running your car lean at WOT and this IS dangerous!!
now, you're done racing grandma from the light, so you take your foot off the gas closing the TB. now you have TONS of vacuum, especially if your RPM's are still high. but you don't need any of that HHO now..
So IMO, it's a horrible idea to connect your HHO inlet downstream of the throttle body.
------------------------------------------------------
next up: lack of ENGINE DATA under hho supplement. I'm suprised people are not blowing up more engines the way they carelessly seem to pull fuel from management..
lean = HOT = meltdown over time.
I have seen NO exhaust gas temp data.
NO narrowband let alone widebad O2 readings under HHO
no spark plug analysis after running HHO (spark plugs tell you a LOT!)
now I'm not just a sissy crying about this lack of data, I intend to test this myself, but really I'm hoping you guys have seen this data somewhere, or maybe want to test it your self and post it up here. Any data will help!!
-----------------------------------------------------------
Tests like this make us look bad:
http://www.fuelfromh2o.com/
maybe watch the first video before reading on. seems convincing, eh?
well, besides his poor fuel control, one extremely important factor was left out. engine temperature..
So he starts this engine cold, shows how much fuel it consumes, shows the soot out the tailpipe, the adds HHO which makes it run twice as long on the same amount of fuel, and no soot out the tailpipe (plus we get water from the hho, ha ha ha).
soooo. this is easily explained by warmup of the motor, not the tiny amounts of HHO he's generating (hell, my first POS gen makes way more than that). The choke is closed causing it to consume more fuel for the first two minutes and put soot out the back. well, duh, it's rich because it's cold! Then the HHO is added, of course, at the same time the choke opens and leans it out, ie showing his less fuel consumption and cleaner burn..
plus, how does anyone magically get the carb jets to throw less fuel under the same venturi pressure without adjustment? they don't.
And the water coming out of the tailpipe? ! uh, that happens to every car when it warms up and burns out the condensation in the pipes. there's NO way that much water came from the puney amounts of HHO he put into the motor.
IMO, this test means nothing and hurts the HHO cause..
------------------------------------------------------
So we need to know the burning characteristics are for HHO gas.
what will it do to a lean/stoik/rich mixture?
Since it causes a faster burn, do we have to retard timing? that won't help TQ or low end power. timing is usually advanced 6 deg at idle, and 30-40 deg at WOT. anyone seen HHO backfire in their car?
how do we regulate the HHO AF mixture? do we change generation amounts on teh fly too?
I'd like to come up with some tests for the integration. I have an 87' Scirocco Turbo with stand alone management and a wideband that I can use for testing. I can log anything management wise so we can get some good data to figure out how to TUNE a gas/HHO setup instead of just leaning it out..
So let's see that data and hear some ideas!!