My crossroads !

[Donor]

:confused: Well.... my first attempt was a 21 plate with 4 neutrals. At very little KOh I was at 25 amps with 2.30 ltr per minute.

My current advice was a 19 plate with 5 neutrals. I needed to dump alot of KOH to hit the 20 amp margin and making 2 liters in 1.12 minutes.

Which one should I go with ? I see mist vapor from the 19 plate and saw none in my 21 plate.

Seems to me I am better off with the 21 plate.

[hhofox]

Mist vapour?? Are you scrubbing the HHO with a bubbler (with Vinegar, or some neutralizing agent?) Recall that the less neutrals you have, the more heat you get and, in turn, steam can be produced. Maybe that would make up some of the output that you were getting.
Also, check to make sure that your setup is sound and everything is connected properly, with no leaks.
I have a cell with 13 plates (7"x5.5"), in 2 stacks. And it had put out over 2LPM @ about 20 amps easily - I was surprised.
Maybe it has something to do with my design? :confused: Anyhow...
What size are your plates? Is your reactor square, tall, or broad?
What size engine/how much HHO are you shooting for btw?

[myoldyourgold]

Something is not right here. Both setups are using about 6.6 amps per cell so each cell should be producing the same amount of gas. The major difference is voltage per cell which depends on your alternator. Some put out 14.3 and with little loss you have 14 volts at the reactor others put 13.8 and with some loss you get 13.2 or so at the reactor. Excess voltage creates heat not more gas. It is the amps that make the gas. There is only 2 cells different which will make some difference but not that much. You see why I think something is wrong. What temperature is the 19 plate reactor running at it should be less than the 21 plate reactor temperature. We need the details of the size of the plates like hhofox asked for.

Moisture in the gas doses not have to show as steam and if there is what looks like steam is possibly cold fog and not steam. Both need to be well cleaned of any electrolyte before going into the engine. All HHO has moisture in it. What goes into the engine must just be clean moisture with no electrolyte to eat the aluminum it passes. Steam is a waste of energy so temperature of the reactor is important. Your reactor does not have to boil to make steam.

[Donor]

Well first off the cell doesn't even get warm , NEVER has. All plates are 6x6 18 gauge 316 s.s. With this now 19 plate the concentrate has at least 4 tablespoons of KOH to hit the 20 amp mark. When i smelled the vapor mist it had an odor to it so i am guessing that is the lye. I took some voltage readings.

The battery power with the jeep running is 14.3 volts

First + is 12.87
first cell neutral goes 10.72, 8.56, 6.42, 4.27, 2.15
second cell neutral goes 10.67 8.53 6.41 4.27 2.14
third cell neutral goes 10.72 8.55 6.42 4.29 2.17

I have a bubbler and even put all my plastic drill bit scraps in it from drilling out all my endplates and still have that vapor coming out of it.

1999 cherokee with the 4.0, i am just under 2lpm with this vapor crap and a ton of KOH, and with the 21 plate I had very little KOH with no vapor and 1ltr in 26 seconds at about 25 amps as well as no heat in the cell.

[myoldyourgold]

OK lets look at this realistically. 4 stacks 21 plates 25 amps 12.87 Volts 2300MLPM. That is 7.15 MMW but Faraday's 100% is only 4.62 MMW or 1.49 LPM. For this to be accurate you can not exceed 4.62MMW/1.49 LPM. There is either a lot of moisture or the measurement was not accurate or something.

Now with your 19 plate configuration. The maximum 100% Faraday no moisture is 1.43 LPM or 5.55 MMW but if you are making 1.8 LPM your mmw is 6.99. Same problem lots of moisture or not measured right.

The 19 plate one is closer to the actual with the added moisture, but the 21 plate is way off. Both have a problem. Still it does not compute.

One problem that will help the 19 plate reactor is to get better thicker gauge wires (more strands the better) coming to the reactor so you have at least 13.8 volts at the reactor. There is a lot of loss at 12.87. That will make a big difference.

[Donor]

I feel like Mater the tow truck in the CARS movie. The wire I used was 12 gauge which is what I saw in a diagram. My testing was done with a 1 liter bottle in a 2 liter bottle filled with water and a hose going through the 2 liter bottle cap into the 1 liter bottle and did a stopwatch. Maybe put heavier wire in ?

[Donor]

Whats a MMW and who is Farraday ? I know LPM , EFIE , and PWM.

[myoldyourgold]

Here is Wikipedia's link on Faraday's Law it will explain it much more than I can.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday%27s_law_of_induction

MMW stands for Milliliter per Minute per Watt and is used as a measure of efficiency. Not the best measure in my book but one that is accepted in the industry. The problem with any measurement is how you are measuring it and what are you measuring, gas or gas and moisture. Moisture takes up many times the amount of space as the gas does and will distort the numbers. You think you are making a lot more gas than you really are.

I use 8 gauge with a huge number of strands over 200 if I remember but good oxygen free very flexible wire used in stereo systems works good.

[Donor]

I am just worried about that vapor. If I knew it wasn't bad news I won't go back to the 21 plate.

[myoldyourgold]

With a reasonable bubbler I would not worry about what looks like steam unless it is coming out of your bubbler. Keep the 19 plate under or at 30 amps and you should be OK if everything is working right.

[Donor]

Yeah it is coming out of the bubbler. Should I keep dumping in KOH to get more amps ? i am nervous of having so much KOH. It seems like the more I add nothing really changes.

[hhofox]

The vapour is coming out of your bubbler? Hmmm, how is that bubbler constructed? Generally, you want very small bubbles rising through a column of water (I use vinegar to neutralize whatever electrolyte which may be present) about 12" high. That should clean things up for you. Hell, I can't see anything coming out the top of my bubbler at all! You could even use two bubblers to get the job done right!

I also did an extra thing -which may be useless. I took a bottle and stuffed it full of sponge (not tightly tough) and allow the gas to pass through this chamber. I am guessing that it removes more unwanted stuff as well -I'll have to do a with and without test to prove that.

I think the max KOH concentration that you should have is 28%, but usually, you have to increase the concentration to get higher amps. You must ensure that you leave some room for the heating of the electrolyte so that you do not pass the 30amp limit that myoldyourgold mentioned. If you push the cell to much, and make it overheat, then you can have thermal runaway -unless you are using a PWM to limit the current going to the cell.

[myoldyourgold]

Bubbler construction is something everyone needs to give some good thought to. Longer is more important than short and fat. The distance the bubbles travel makes the difference. Long narrow bubblers with good diffusers with some acidic liquid does the trick. Boric acid or vinegar both work but I prefer Boric acid because it has no water in it like vinegar does if you are in the frozen north and using MMO. Some kind of filtering material at the top of the bubbler is further protection. Spun nylon 1.5 inch thick that is used in some commercial air filters works well. This brakes up things more and is an additional safety.

I prefer NaOH to KOH less NaOH makes its way into the bubbler than KOH. The resistance of KOH at full strength 28% is less then NaOH at its maximum strength of 20%. I guess you can say that might be an advantage for KOH but is not in the reactors I have tested or designed. The biggest advantage for NaOH is what it does in the cleaning and conditioning phase which KOH can not do!! It also does not attach its self to the water molecule like KOH does ending up in the bubbler in larger quanities. NaOH is available in the local hardware store where KOH is not. Both work and it is up to you which one to use.

[Donor]

Well for now my bubbler is a small clear O.J. bottle which I bought for my daughter at Wal Mart. I have the plastic shavings in it from when I drilled out the endplates. Maybe I will go the sponge type in it. This vinegar thing here, If I just filled up with vinegar would that be better. Also this NaOH thing should I just run that instead and what product name is it in stores ? I just completely tore the cell apart last night and scored the plates with a belt sander 60 grit cleaned it all up excetra... tonight i will put it back in. Since I am starting with basically a new system again where should I go with it I am trying how to figure out how to supply the cell with bigger wire rather than mu 12 gauge because that wire comes off the relay. I have 2 +'s coming off the 1 12 gauge from the relay and one 12 gauge ground. I am thinking should also hook up another ground as well i am using + and - supply with a eye hole connector sandwiched through a metal bolt. My buddy Ron the sound system God said the metal bolt is bad because it loses current that way. From my bat the power is 14.3 or so and the first power wire on the cell is 12.87.

[myoldyourgold]

I now use 8 gauge hyper flex 665 strand wire for all the short runs. That is a lot of little strands of wire and makes it very flexable!!! 10 feet or less. If it is longer I go to 4 gauge. If it is the length of the car 0 gauge is what I would recommend but have never had to do that yet. Always have found room in the engine compartment or in front of the radiator. Have not done every kind of vehicle yet not even close, LOL so there is bound to be exceptions. The longest run was in my Mercedes because the battery is next to the firewall and the reactor in front of the radiator. For larger quantities of HHO like 10 plus LPM I use multiple reactors not bigger ones. My largest reactor only makes 6 LPM. They are still pretty big and weigh a ton but for something to use that much HHO it is usually in a large commercial vehicle like a tractor, boat, earth moving equipment or huge 30 liter diesel generating plants and space is not a problem except in some boats where the reactor is not in the engine compartment which is required by some insurance companies and is feeding more than one engine. Crimp and solder all fittings. This is all to help prevent voltage drop between the source and the reactor.

[hhofox]

Try using vinegar in the bubbler (still checking out the ratio.) You mentioned plastic shavings twice -so I am guessing that they are sizeable, but a good filtration device (like an air-stone) would be much better.
Regarding the sponge - I do not know how effective it is.
I think it does something, but the jury is still out on that. What I am thinking of doing though, is putting some in a segment of my tubing. I would just pack it in loosely so that it does not restrict gas flow, then check visually, and flow-wise what difference it makes if any.

NaOH is Sodium Hydroxide. I see it at the supermarket in both liquid and granular forms -I choose granular. It's "Drain Opener." It is said that it does stuff in the initial stages which KoH does not. KoH is stronger though. Crap happens at times though (READ: I do not always use gloves), so I feel 'safer' using NaOH. Just be careful -always adding the NaOH TO water, NOT NOT NOT water to NaOH. Same goes for potassium I think -recall that from High School. Can you say EXPLOSION!? Be sure to have a bottle of vinegar on hand for emergency neutralization.
Oh, I also use vinegar to clean any spot that the NaOH touches on the car.

[Donor]

I bought that stuff from Lowes. Roebic drain cleaner it says 100% lye. Thats KOH right ? I am just nervous about that vapor fog coming out of the bubbler. If vinegar is better in the bubbler for cleaning and such I will go that route then. Whats in my bubbler are the shavings from when i drilled out my endplates with a 1/2 bit. The bubbles go right around it though. This weekend I am going to St. Louis to see my friend which is like a 600 mile round trip and want to run the system during it. The other thing is I have like 4 tablespoons of KOH with a 2 liter bottle and the amp draw doesn't want to go over 15-20 amps. I would like to hit 25 amps for more HHo but how much more should I put in it ? When I had my 21 plate 4n's I used very little KOH and it was at 30 amps and 1ltr in 26 seconds with no fog vapor from bubbler. It just seems like the 21 plate produced more with less KOH in it. It couldn't of been steam because still my cell has NEVER even been warm or hot. Hope you reply tonight friend.

[hhofox]

Since you had more plates in the reactor, the greater surface area would give off more gas. The thing about it is that to get heat taken care of and other factors, such as better quality gas from your unit, you need at least 5Ns. 6Ns are even better! If I were you, I would have just added the extra plates to make it up. If not, just work with the 19 plate setup.
The cell should get warmer after driving for a while, and along with ambient temps cause some change in the AMPS used by the reactor. That said, if you could read the amps while driving, you may be getting up to the 25 you desire. Otherwise, since it seems like you get approx five amps per tablespoon of KOH, then why not try adding 1/4 or even 1/2 a tablespoon? Just pour out some of your existing solution, add the KOH, pour it back and give it a bit of time to get mixed in, then test the amps.
I think 1/4 at a time is more controllable, so try that and see what happens.

[myoldyourgold]

Roebic drain cleaner from Lowes is NaOH not KOH. Lye is NaOH. Never use any product that is NOT 100% because some products which are half the price come with some metals and other stuff in it that will ruin your reactor.

[Donor]

Yeah over the weekend in St. louis me and my friend realized i was using NaOH versus KOH. Everybody is saying 5-6 neutral plates but my production was better with 4 neutral plates. I think I might go back to my 21 plate instead. With my 21 plate I never saw that vapor cloud like I do with the 19 plate and a ton more NaOH in it. Once I put the 21 bach togather i am going to see with a balloon if is water vapor or a gas and if the balloon falls or rises. Again even after 400 miles home the cell was not hot.

[hhofox]

Recall that there is a sweet spot voltage-wise, for quality HHO production. On a car, you end up in that sweet spot when you have 5-6 neutrals more readily.
You should do some mileage tests with the two setups to see the difference it makes, as well as testing for heat.
It really does seem like you wanna re-invent the wheel though.
To each his own.

[Donor]

As far as milkeage tests go it takes time to take the unit out , rebuild it and install it and do test drives . Again, I have never had heat !!! Well if 5-6 neutrals are better then why did I have more production with 4n instead ? It was hard to keep the amps down but I got 1lpm in 26 seconds with no fog vapor at all. And nobody can tell me it is steam after going through a resevoir and bubbler as well as the cell being room temp. If I ran a 6n then my concentrate would be paste. I stll want to know what the vapor cloud is with the NaOH.

[hhofox]

Hey, just to be sure, turn on your vehicle, then use a voltmeter to test, at the battery poles, what the voltage is. Please make sure to do this while the car is running. Also, do the same test with the car off, then post the results pls.

Also, where are you located? What is the temp outside?

Thirdly. Unless you have a proper bubbler, scrubber, filter, or so on to clean the HHO coming out of the reactor, you will get the white vapour. When I installed a bubbler, over 11" in height, the vapour became invisible. It is even more effective with vinegar in the mix and especially so if you have an air-stone or diffuser in the bubbler to break up the large bubbles as they rise.

How tall is that OJ bottle which you use for your bubbler? Can we have some pics please?

[Donor]

Well I junked the O.J bottle. Right now I made a bubbler with 1 1/2 ID clear tubing about 16 inches long in St.Louis and still had the vapor. 400 miles later once I got home there was white residue in my throttle body and all around my hoses which were very clamped tight. I just got done making it the 21 plate again. I will use the vinegar and some kind of air stone. The cell has been outside in 35 degree weather and in my 60 degree garage. The cell does not get warm, when it is started or used for 5 hours.

[hhofox]

Deal with the requests below, and we'll be able to help out.
The fact that you STILL get the vapour means something is amiss.


use a voltmeter to test, at the battery poles, what the voltage is. Please make sure to do this while the car is running. Also, do the same test with the car off, then post the results pls.


Unless you have a proper bubbler, scrubber, filter, or so on to clean the HHO coming out of the reactor, you will get the white vapour. When I installed a bubbler, over 11" in height, the vapour became invisible. It is even more effective with vinegar in the mix and especially so if you have an air-stone or diffuser in the bubbler to break up the large bubbles as they rise.


Can we have some pics please?

[myoldyourgold]

One last comment on your mist. If this mist is coming out of your bubbler and your bubbler has cleaned most or better all the electrolyte from the HHO/mist then this could be a cold fog. In that case, if it does not condense in the line going to the engine and stays mixed with the HHO it could be a good thing. Lots of ifs. The most important is if the bubbler is cleaning the electrolyte out enough.

[aceras624]

Well I junked the O.J bottle. Right now I made a bubbler with 1 1/2 ID clear tubing about 16 inches long in St.Louis and still had the vapor. 400 miles later once I got home there was white residue in my throttle body and all around my hoses which were very clamped tight. I just got done making it the 21 plate again. I will use the vinegar and some kind of air stone. The cell has been outside in 35 degree weather and in my 60 degree garage. The cell does not get warm, when it is started or used for 5 hours.

nice to see you made a legit bubbler :)

the clamped hose having white residue says to me that there has been line blockage at some point? being that its almost freezing out side this seems very realistic. the excess pressure has to go somewhere. If the residue is there, the electrolyte is traveling with the HHO gas :/ more scrubber/bubbler action needed

nice to know the cells not getting warm but the less nuetral plates you use, the higher the voltage between plates and you lose some electricity to heat. Maybe the cells capable of 15 degree temp rising but maybe more plates might get you to 5 degree rising :)

[Donor]

Well this clear hose bubbler sucks lol. Both sides are capped and glued with fittings on it. Problem is i have no way to drain or fill it. Time for something new ! I went back to my 21 plate 4n instead of my 19 plate 5n which was suggested to replace my 21. I hated the 19 cause it was taking 4-5 tablespoons to hit 20-25 amps versus my 21 which is at 4 teaspoons and pulling like 30 amps which i need to dilute a little by the way. The fog is way less but I haven't even gone through a bubbler yet so that should definately take care of the problem. I did not like the extreme vapor from the 19 due to the fact I had to dump SO much NaOH in it to pull amps. When i started with 2 teaspoons in a 2 liter bottle I was already at 10amps. I know I need to dilute the concentrate but it is definately pumping HHO in the resevoir with little effort and less chemical.

[myoldyourgold]

I doubt you are using to much NaOH and that is not causing the fog. A lot of people use 2 lbs per gallon on a 19 plate reactor, of course with a PWM and have no problems. Your system is just not set up right. You need a bigger reservoir for one thing and a separate good bubbler. The amount of fog is not created by haveing 19 plates or the electrolyte. In fact 4 n's will never be as good as 5 or 6 N's. That is a simple fact. To much wasted energy.

[hhofox]

I agree with myoldyourgold.
Set up some proper stuff, and then you will start to see some good results. That vapour can do a number on your engine parts, so don't take it lightly!
Also, you end up having more control over the AMPS your cell uses (important) when you have to add NaOH in greater quantities, since you can add a bit at a time and see the subtle changes. This beats having the AMPs jump up when you add just a little NaOH to your mixture.
Please do some proper tests - or you will see what happens when summer comes along and the cold weather isn't around to save you from thermal runaway.

[Donor]

First off how do I say this 2 POUNDS NaOH HOLY _HIT !!!!! My friend in making me an efie and pwm so that will help. I understand more neutral plates are good but i don't want to dump in 2lbs of NaOH in my reactor. My goal is too have more than enough lpm for my 4ltr Cherokee.