dry cell crapped out!!! why?!?

[aceras624]

so Ive been running my prototype HHO dry cell for about a week now and all of a sudden the amperage it pulls is like HALF and its getting HOT(not the electrolyte, the plates themselves, all of them). With my PWM I maintained about 13-14 amps for the week with the PWM at about 60%. when the issue happened, i turned the PWM up to 100% and could only pull about 8 amps!

This cell is 13 SS switch plate covers with 1/16th" rubber gaskets in between so -nnnnn+nnnnn- 3quart resevoir, 30 amp PWM, 15 amp relay, 30 amp ammeter, 30 amp switch 1/2" hoses, secondary bubbler, 3/8 in and out ports

anyone know why this is happening? i Havent had a chance to figure it out cuz ive been stuck working like NONSTOP lately :(

[hhofox]

Hmmm... what colour is your reservoir's water? Does it have mud at the bottom? I am thinking that maybe the wall plates created mud inside the electrolyser and that's cutting down on your total area of reaction.
The mud could also be blocking the water holes between the cells, preventing the plates from getting any more electrolyte.
If the plates are not 316L then they give off some (toxic?) mud.
(I'd like to know if this will stop eventually -or will they always give off the mud?)
Anyhow, I'd give the unit a good cleaning and see what it does after that.

That's just my two cents.

[myoldyourgold]

Check the voltage at the reactor and then between each cell first. Try and determine if there is a short somewhere in the reactor. It might be your PWM took a dump. Try it direct without the PWM for a little and see what happens. If you are running full strength electrolyte it might peg your amp meter and fry it so be careful.

[aceras624]

Hmmm... what colour is your reservoir's water? Does it have mud at the bottom? I am thinking that maybe the wall plates created mud inside the electrolyser and that's cutting down on your total area of reaction.
The mud could also be blocking the water holes between the cells, preventing the plates from getting any more electrolyte.
If the plates are not 316L then they give off some (toxic?) mud.
(I'd like to know if this will stop eventually -or will they always give off the mud?)
Anyhow, I'd give the unit a good cleaning and see what it does after that.

That's just my two cents.

the water turned brown pretty quickly which I attribute to the low quality grade of steel in the plates

i was worried about the "mud" too. I was thinking maybe its sucking up current and dropping voltage or something.
Im just going to replace it with the newer bigger unit i made wiht 316L plates. Ill try to let you know what the problem was

[aceras624]

Check the voltage at the reactor and then between each cell first. Try and determine if there is a short somewhere in the reactor. It might be your PWM took a dump. Try it direct without the PWM for a little and see what happens. If you are running full strength electrolyte it might peg your amp meter and fry it so be careful.

I hope my PWM didnt crap out :( its brand new!!! good idea about bypassing it though. I did just thin out the electrolyte so ill be able to direct connect it without any problem :) i suppose illl do that first and then if i get the same results, ill start checking for issues inside the cell with the voltage like you recomend. Thanks :)

[myoldyourgold]

If you have a lot of brown mud you need to rinse out the reactor with distilled water. What can happen is the brown muck collects at the bottom and shorts out some of the cells and in the end all of them. To prevent this you should keep the amps below10 amps for your reactor. If you push it you just make brown junk and very little good HHO. You can run the electrolyte through coffee filters. It will take quite a few if the electrolyte is really muddy. The filters plug up very quickly.

[aceras624]

yeah it seems like that is whats happening. Im just going to drain the system(probably suck it out with my mouth an spit it into a bucket, thats ok right ;) and put my new bigger HHO cell on there :) its 316L so it shouldnt have such an issue.

gotta admit, the switch plate covers worked pretty well for like a week :)

Do you think the new HHO cell will have less of a problem because ive got the input on the corner of the square and rotated it 45 degrees so it is a diamond?

[Madsceintist]

Suck it out with your mouth ....................................... TOXIC !!!!!!!!!!!!!! DO NOT DO THIS FOR NO REASON...................... Read up on that mud, brown water, and so on. Let me know if it tastes like Root beer !

[hhofox]

As I wrote earlier and MADSCIENTIST said, THE MUD IS TOXIC!!
I poured my 1st run electrolyte (which looked like neon green water :D ) out on the ground and it burned/browned and caramelized the grass and dirt there!
Yours may be root beer flavoured, but mine would have to be more like Cocoa or chocolate -based on the look of it!
..................
Man! I thought it was mud....because a similar thing happened to me too on my first run -which was over a month. Mine still kept on chugging though. I made my plates using the metal from a large SS stock pot -the huge cooking pots. I cleaned it with natural pumped (???) well water and set it back up. It is putting out more mud again though. I am wondering -please answer if anyone can - will this continue, or will I have to clean this stuff out every month or two?

[myoldyourgold]

Hey guys this is no joke. The muddy electrolyte could be very toxic and contain above the minimum amounts of CR6 which is known to cause cancer!! You must discard this properly and not in the ground!! You do not want to get it in the ground water!! Take it to a hazardous waste disposal site marked cr6.

The mud is caused by poor quality stainless steel, to many amps per square inch of active area and impurities in the water. Use distilled water and do not exceed .25 amps per square inch per active area on one side of one plate for 304 stainless and then if the plates have been cleaned and conditioned properly the brown should eventually almost all go away. 304 stainless must be treated with care or you will have lots of muck. Solve these problems easily by using 316L and always using distilled water.

[hhofox]

Thanks for the serious advice. This is Jamaica, so I guess I'd have to ignore all the strange (wth?) looks and ascertain where I can dispose of this stuff properly -instead of letting it be washed out to sea.

Hmmm... So my sub-grade plates are gonna take less amps to remain clean huh?

I have 13 plates. 7"x5.5" each. 1/2" gaskets, and let's say 85% active plate area. I'll have to do some math before I can find out how many amps I can throw at it and still remain within the .25 amp per square inch range huh?

I think I tried this before and....:confused:

[myoldyourgold]

6.75 amps to 8 amps max. 6 x 4.5 = 27 x .25 = 6.75 amps so I would make sure you do not go over 8 amps.

[aceras624]

I hope you guys realize that I was TOTALLY playing around about sucking out the sludge with my MOUTH :eek: I know its horribly cancerous :)

hey when you say .25 amps per square inch, let me know if this math is right please? I have 29 plates in my new cell with 5.5"x 5.5" of surface area per plate. that means 30.25" squared of surface area so times 29 plates equals 877.25 then divided by 4 (or multiplied by .25) and I get 219.32. is THIS really the max amps I could run trhough this thing?!?!:confused:

[myoldyourgold]

Here is the calculation. Active area on one side of one plate is what you want.

5.5 x 5.5 I take it you subtracted the gasket area. If you have you have 30.25 square inches of active area on one side of one plate. 30.25 x .25 = 7.56 amps. It is that simple. Not the total area. The same amps in a single stack goes through each plate. Now if you have more than one stack like say 2 stacks like HHOfox who has 13 plates which is 2 stacks and a max per stack of 6.75 amps so the total he can use is 6.75 x 2 = 13.5 and I think he will be ok up to a maximum of 16 amps but no more. The amps get divided between the two stacks.

Now that is clear as mud right. LOL

[aceras624]

what do you mean exactly by stack? My setup is
-nnnnnn+nnnnnn-nnnnnn+nnnnnn
does this mean I have 4 stacks?

[myoldyourgold]

what do you mean exactly by stack? My setup is
-nnnnnn+nnnnnn-nnnnnn+nnnnnn
does this mean I have 4 stacks?

Yes that is 4 stacks. The current will be divided by 4 and voltage will be divided by 7. So .25 amps per square inch of your plate size 5.5 x 5.5 equaling 30.25 x .25 = 7.56 x 4 = 30.24 maximum amperage for the reactor. Now remember we are talking about 304 but if it is 316 L you can go to .5 amps per active square inch of active area on one side of one plate or 60.48 amps. I also took it that you have deducted for the gasket area, ports and the dead space at the top of the plates.

Bipolar Reactor rules 101

1) A Reactor is composed of one or more cells. Each cell has an anode and a cathode.

2) A bipolar plate (neutral plate) is both an anode and a cathode (positive on one side and negative on the other).

3) The number of cells in one stack divides the voltage no mater how many stacks there is in a reactor.

4) A stack has 2 Unipolar plates (power connected plates) one an anode and one a cathode and at least 1 bipolar plate. +N- or +NNNNNN- or any number of neutral (bipolar) plates.

5) Stacks divide amperage. +NNNNNN- is one stack so is divided by 1. +NNNNNN-NNNNNN+ is 2 stacks and divides amps by 2 and so on.

6) Active area is calculated on the active area on one side of one plate less the gasket area, input and exit ports, and the dead area at the top of the plate on either side of the exit port.

7) Maximum amperage for 316 L is .5 amps per square inch of active area. Some people never exceed .25 amps per active area even on 316L and claim very good results.

8) Maximum amperage for 304 is .25 amps per square inch of active area which helps cut down on the brown mud.

[dixiepc]

So does this mean that with .5 amp per square inch his cell will be making approximately 4 lpm?

[aceras624]

thank you MYOLDYOURGOLD for REexplaining that to me :) having to find all the info myself and seperate the facts from fiction has been difficult so its cool that youve been able to respond to my questions so quickly and effectively :)

your post is yet another that Ive copied and pasted to my word document about HHO.

also I DID extimate for gasket cut off and holes so I think the measurements are pretty dead on :) HOO RAAHHH!!!!

[aceras624]

@Dixie

At this point I think it might be capable of doing something like that but it will also be dependant on temp and KOH concentration. Im going to use just enough KOH to pull maybe 15-20 Amps (ill be experimenting with MPG gains VS check engine lights) that way, when the solution starts concentrating from usage Ill be able to dial back the current with my PWM and never go past the Max concentration of KOH (28% i think?) that way I can go as long as possible without having to refill the resevoir.

Hope this works out. theres been a number of obstacles I feel that ive over come with the guidance of G&G (Google & Gold ;)

[hhofox]

A load of thanks for working that out for me myoldyourgold. I had worked it out to be about 7amps on friday -that is, with about 15% of the plate being dead space. Your 8amps max is right by both calcs then!
Also your "Bipolar Reactor rules 101" course REALLLLLLY cleared up more stuff for me. The simplicity of your explanation will go a long way for me.
Now, I wonder what grade of steel those 'SSteel step-on garbage bins' actually use.
Anyhow, I am gonna see how my mileage changes with approx 1LPM of HHO going into it. And I'll keep tabs on the mud too.;)

[aceras624]

Now, I wonder what grade of steel those 'SSteel step-on garbage bins' actually use.

I just found out that there are HUNDREDS of kinds of stainless steel! Luckily I settled on 316L after reading. Im also happy with my first dry cell mad out of SS switch plate covers. While it DID crap out in about a week, It put everything in motion. Its not a long term cell, but It was a good practice :)