A New Feul useage control method!?!

[Roland Jacques]

Plain and simply Madsceintist's started controlling his Fuel Pump Voltage. By lowering the FPV with a Pulse Wave Modulator Madsceintist reports he was able to reduce fuel usage over 80% without dealing with EFIE's and computer issues. Basically i think this means unlimited control. :)

This really seems like a great idea to me. I see some pros and not many cons.
i think Madsceintist came up with a real winner here!


I'm looking for some feedback on this idea. I may be missing something but to me this seems like a great discovery. E
Even if closed loop i think this would work?

So if we can list the pros and cons we can get a clear picture to the long term viability of this idea.

[Weapon_R]

It works plain and simple. If you read my last couple posts I had mentioned there is yet a better way but its along the same lines. This was also mentioned before by ultra_efficient.
Computer issue is over rated and a lot of the issues can be overcome by simple methods.
Why does everybody seek to be compliant. I can never understand.

[Madsceintist]

I had to pay more attention to my controls at times than i did the road! My dash still has duct tape glue on it from mounting my panel with the gauges and switches.

[myoldyourgold]

Weapon_R, Roland, I have had no problems in testing with the injector signal. In fact just the reverse. It is expensive and the wiring is a nightmare unless you have a car that companies like AEM have made a harness for. I have an AEM piggy back controller and have tested vehicles using it to lean out things to achieve extreme mileage over the normal range of power requirements without affecting the computer. I used the AEM only because I found one cheap and could get tech support locally to prove that a very lean mixture with the right combinations could work. The problem is that the leaner you go the more HHO has to be created or the vehicle will not run, overheat, destroy itself, bla bla bla. The demand for HHO changes with power requirements and is not a consistent amount and must be controlled as much as possible to meet a range of requirements. This requires out of the box equipment to prevent lag time for example, when needing to accelerate quickly. Water injection, O3, and EGR regulation and increased HHO at the right time solves the problems but the system is very expensive and more complicated for the average guy to use or recoup his investment. If not done right and without the right safety monitors you can ruin an engine in less than 10 minutes of running and in extreme case in a couple minutes. It all comes back to making the HHO efficiently as possible and striking a balance in the cheapest way with no chance of ruining the engine.

A number of people have tried playing with the fuel pump and based on the reports I have read, the results are all over the place. Most of the wide range of results are because of the methods used and inaccurate testing and measuring. I have not had time to do my own testing yet because I am not convinced that the computer will not be able to tell when lean conditions exist or is out of a specific range. I could be wrong though but no matter how you make it lean it will be picked up unless you are feeding the computer information that is required. With the right electronics that does not require an electrical engineer/pro tuner to install and tune you can achieve almost the same results and in some cases better with no risk to the engine. I will be testing some prototype electronics in the next few weeks which I believe will do exactly what we need and will report the results. The goal is to make good gains at a cost that makes sense.

[Weapon_R]

myoldyourgold

I see you are quite busy. I have plans on using a Aem Fic to control fuel and timing or a megasquirt. Water injection is a proven method of getting low end torque but I am looking into water vapor injection due it lower water requirements. But I see you have been doing your research. As for the fuel pump and pwm most are not using the correct system hence the problems you have mentioned. Also in a fuel injected one only needs to tune to 2000-3000 rpm max and let stock ecu handle anything above that.
Many ways to increase mileage hho is but one method.
myoldyourgold I am very impressed with your work. Do you have access to a dyno for tuning?

[Roland Jacques]

I had to pay more attention to my controls at times than i did the road! My dash still has duct tape glue on it from mounting my panel with the gauges and switches.

So is your constant attention with your fuel pump controls due to you trying to get max MPG?
In other words if you were content with 25-40% MPG improvement, could the fuel pump mod be a hands off/set it & forget it mod ?

[Roland Jacques]

If not done right and without the right safety monitors you can ruin an engine in less than 10 minutes of running and in extreme case in a couple minutes. It all comes back to making the HHO efficiently as possible and striking a balance in the cheapest way with no chance of ruining the engine.
.

Would you say a Exhaust Temp gauge and alarm could prevent most all engine damage from this type of experimenting (extreme leaning of fuel)?

Can we get damage from early detonation (To fast of a burn)? Is th ere any steps to take that would help us detect when this may be happening?

[Roland Jacques]

A number of people have tried playing with the fuel pump and based on the reports I have read, the results are all over the place. Most of the wide range of results are because of the methods used and inaccurate testing and measuring. I have not had time to do my own testing yet because I am not convinced that the computer will not be able to tell when lean conditions exist or is out of a specific range. I could be wrong though but no matter how you make it lean it will be picked up unless you are feeding the computer information that is required. With the right electronics that does not require an electrical engineer/pro tuner to install and tune you can achieve almost the same results and in some cases better with no risk to the engine. I will be testing some prototype electronics in the next few weeks which I believe will do exactly what we need and will report the results. The goal is to make good gains at a cost that makes sense.

I wish i more knowledge about automotive systems but I don't. I defer to you auto mechanics on these matters.
I would think that even if the cpu sees the lean condition it MIGHT not be a issue. Seeing that it would probable just defalt to closed loop, or go to full rich condition. But If the Fuel pressure is not there, would it even matter if it was in full rich?


I would think a O2 EFIE would be enough to keep the computer from seeing a lean condition.

[myoldyourgold]

I see you are quite busy. I have plans on using a Aem Fic to control fuel and timing or a megasquirt. Water injection is a proven method of getting low end torque but I am looking into water vapor injection due it lower water requirements. But I see you have been doing your research. As for the fuel pump and pwm most are not using the correct system hence the problems you have mentioned. Also in a fuel injected one only needs to tune to 2000-3000 rpm max and let stock ecu handle anything above that.
Many ways to increase mileage hho is but one method.
myoldyourgold I am very impressed with your work. Do you have access to a dyno for tuning?

No dyno just a set of rollers at a friendly smog station that I can use free with his sniffer. I am afraid I am very old school and tune by ear and trial and error with help from some propriety information. There are as you said many other methods but I have found by combining them you get mega returns. Just taping all major current cables with aluminum tape in a vehicle gives a measurable gain by blocking magnet fields interacting with each other. Would not have believed it if I had not tested it. The list is quite long.

The clue in water injection for maximum results is vapor as you stated but more than that is ionized vapor. That is why I mentioned I am working on a better water injection system than is available. So little time. Today is my day off to get my thoughts back on track but have ended up on the computer. LOL

There is nothing impressive about my work but have had a lot of help by people who are much smarter than I am!! People like Gus (Bio) has been extremely helpful to correct me when I am headed in the wrong direction!! and help in a lot of other areas too. Can not thank him enough. There are a number of people who have tested various things for me and saved me a lot of time and I thank them too. In the electronic area I must thank hhoelectronics. An excellent knowledgeable and trustworthy real gentleman!! So the list goes on and on. The only reason it might be impressive is because of all the help.


Would you say a Exhaust Temp gauge and alarm could prevent most all engine damage from this type of experimenting (extreme leaning of fuel)?

Can we get damage from early detonation (To fast of a burn)? Is th ere any steps to take that would help us detect when this may be happening?

I use an Exhaust Temp gauge only for tuning. There will not be any fast burn if the mixture is lean enough and the right amount of HHO is present. The burn rate comes back to a normal burn rate and is what tuning is all about. Unfortunately this is different on every vehicle and I am working on how to get it right with just simple little things. Not there yet. Still a lot of work to do and so little time. It will be a while before I have it all nailed down. I use my ear and feel the loss or gain in HP/performance and then look at what the sniffer is reading. Then based on some propriety information make the right adjustments either adding more fuel or less and adjusting the timing to get it right. This same information gives me a starting safe point. This is why you need to have good control. It is not necessary to have compete control unless you want the last few drops out of things. That is at least what I have experienced in my testing.

[myoldyourgold]

I wish i more knowledge about automotive systems but I don't. I defer to you auto mechanics on these matters.
I would think that even if the cpu sees the lean condition it MIGHT not be a issue. Seeing that it would probable just defalt to closed loop, or go to full rich condition. But If the Fuel pressure is not there, would it even matter if it was in full rich?


I would think a O2 EFIE would be enough to keep the computer from seeing a lean condition.

Roland, even though my knowledge is very dated like I have more knowledge of carburetors and mechanical fuel injection than all you younger guys but am limited on electronic fuel injection. There was no such thing when I took auto mechanics. It is just me applying some of the same technology of mechanical fuel injection to the electric injection that is getting me into trouble. Slowing down the pump should not change pressure except when demand is more than supply. If pressure is reduced then the actual spray of the injector would change making it less efficient. I can not get my head around how this would actually be a benefit. Maybe the smarter ones can explain it. Low pressure reduces the spray to a dribble. That is bad in a lot of things especially in old dudes. LOL Unless you change the pressure regulator it will be starving at high demand but at idle would build up pressure.....well you get the idea. If it changes volume and pressure remains the same with out changing the open time(pulse width) of the injector, this will also cause problems. I guess I will leave this to some of the rest of you to explain. I do know if your fuel pump is not working properly can result in reduced mileage.

You might as well stick to the EFIE and forget the pump if you have to add it back in. I see very little or no benefit unless you change the pulse width which has nothing to do with the pump directly but is controlled by the computer after taking into consideration some or all of the sensors. Cold start up wider pulse width (rich) and as it warms up to operating temperature the pulse with gets narrower. Then when you accelerate it get wider again. By messing with the pump changes none of this in a way that I can see will help. I am still willing to learn if someone can explain how it would benefit.

I failed to mention that I always check the injection pressure before I do any changes. If it is not in spec I first solve that problem before I try to lean anything out. If I do not do this it is almost impossible for me to get the expected results.

[sbeckman7]

The argument that changing the fuel pump voltage won't change overall pressure unless supply is less than demand makes sense to me as well. The fuel pump doesn't supply the fuel pressure, the pressure regulator does. So if you were to remove the pressure regulator and replace its function by an adjustable fuel pump, I could see that working better. Of course I havent tried anything so I'd be interested in the actual test results as well.

[myoldyourgold]

What you want to change is the amount, volume of fuel being sprayed not the pressure. In closed loop the ECU uses the information from the sensors to make the necessary changes. If it get a lean signal if widens the pulse and the opposite if it is rich. Closed loop means it reacts to what the last measurement did. In open loop it follows a set map. So any change you do to the fuel system the ECU will react to within its limits or goes to open loop unless you interrupt the signal and send a signal that makes it do what you want it to. It is that simple. I still do not see how the pump can fool the ECU.

[Weapon_R]

No dyno just a set of rollers at a friendly smog station that I can use free with his sniffer. I am afraid I am very old school and tune by ear and trial and error with help from some propriety information. There are as you said many other methods but I have found by combining them you get mega returns. Just taping all major current cables with aluminum tape in a vehicle gives a measurable gain by blocking magnet fields interacting with each other. Would not have believed it if I had not tested it. The list is quite long.

The clue in water injection for maximum results is vapor as you stated but more than that is ionized vapor. That is why I mentioned I am working on a better water injection system than is available. So little time. Today is my day off to get my thoughts back on track but have ended up on the computer. LOL

There is nothing impressive about my work but have had a lot of help by people who are much smarter than I am!! People like Gus (Bio) has been extremely helpful to correct me when I am headed in the wrong direction!! and help in a lot of other areas too. Can not thank him enough. There are a number of people who have tested various things for me and saved me a lot of time and I thank them too. In the electronic area I must thank hhoelectronics. An excellent knowledgeable and trustworthy real gentleman!! So the list goes on and on. The only reason it might be impressive is because of all the help.



I use an Exhaust Temp gauge only for tuning. There will not be any fast burn if the mixture is lean enough and the right amount of HHO is present. The burn rate comes back to a normal burn rate and is what tuning is all about. Unfortunately this is different on every vehicle and I am working on how to get it right with just simple little things. Not there yet. Still a lot of work to do and so little time. It will be a while before I have it all nailed down. I use my ear and feel the loss or gain in HP/performance and then look at what the sniffer is reading. Then based on some propriety information make the right adjustments either adding more fuel or less and adjusting the timing to get it right. This same information gives me a starting safe point. This is why you need to have good control. It is not necessary to have compete control unless you want the last few drops out of things. That is at least what I have experienced in my testing.

myoldyourgold

Right again. I think I had stated this before in a previous post. When fuel is leaned to a point 22:1 of there about the exhaust temp goes down. Mixture becomes harder to ignite and power falls off.
EGT sensor is all you real need to do these experiments. It will at the very least prevent engine melt down.

[Weapon_R]

What you want to change is the amount, volume of fuel being sprayed not the pressure. In closed loop the ECU uses the information from the sensors to make the necessary changes. If it get a lean signal if widens the pulse and the opposite if it is rich. Closed loop means it reacts to what the last measurement did. In open loop it follows a set map. So any change you do to the fuel system the ECU will react to within its limits or goes to open loop unless you interrupt the signal and send a signal that makes it do what you want it to. It is that simple. I still do not see how the pump can fool the ECU.

Computer can only react within limits. Also once the computer does not go into limp mode on sensor failure all is required is to disable the sensor and ignore cel.

[Weapon_R]

The argument that changing the fuel pump voltage won't change overall pressure unless supply is less than demand makes sense to me as well. The fuel pump doesn't supply the fuel pressure, the pressure regulator does. So if you were to remove the pressure regulator and replace its function by an adjustable fuel pump, I could see that working better. Of course I havent tried anything so I'd be interested in the actual test results as well.
Changing pump voltage will lower pressure below that which the regulator is designed to operate. Therefore disabling the fuel pressure regulator.
Normally fuel pump generates a higher pressure than is required and the fuel pressure regulator lowers the pressure to the required amount.
Adjustment can also be made with an adjustable fuel pressure regulator.

[Madsceintist]

Roland;
So is your constant attention with your fuel pump controls due to you trying to get max MPG?
In other words if you were content with 25-40% MPG improvement, could the fuel pump mod be a hands off/set it & forget it mod ?

Most of the attention is due to having to alter the voltage. Uphill or passing would need an increase to 6.5 to 7.8 volts. Some level or near level inclines could use 4.55 volts(i found this to be the least i could keep the car running with minimum load), downhill I could shut the pump off. The car would idle even with using the cruise control at 70 mph(my theory on this is that the transmission convertor was assisting the engine by the stall speed). As the car started to take on a load it would shutter and near stall(so back to 4.55 volts). When i was driving on city highways where there were traffic lights i had to stay around 9.7 to take off from still. One hill on the interstate i had to go to a full voltage around 13.7-14.3 volts(system charging). With my scanner hooked up i could see when i was charging or not, voltage would vary slightly. As well, watching the o2 sensors was incredible! To see bank 1 running at 0 to 40 ppm and bank 2 at flat 0 ppm, SWEET. THIS WAS WITH NO EFIE OR PWM !!!! True o2 voltage and measurements.
To answer your question; Hands off mod. Maybe, if a tps-pwm was integrated to adapt to load demand. Basically you need the fuel pump to respond to demand but only when the load is TRULY pulling down on the engine. A lot of the fuel lost is when you apply the gas pedal to accelerate, so cut back on that waste.

[myoldyourgold]

That is very interesting and do not know why you did not throw a code or go into open loop. Was this in an OBD l vehicle or your 97 suburban?

[Madsceintist]

The Suburb.(obd II) only used HHO on the way back from New York. I didn't have the pump switches and such on it. The Cavalier light came on twice then off after each start for lean bank 1, catalyst efficiency came up once. By the end of the trip the computer kept the code for lean since it was set a third time. Clearing the code each time to see what would return, only lean bank 1. Regardless i continually had a voltage and ppm count on the o2's, and that proved to me the best advantage to all of this. Extremely low emissions.

[myoldyourgold]

Thank you Sir, that clears things up for me. Excellent work.

[Madsceintist]

Since studying and using HHO, I've only used F.I. engines that control timing for spark and fuel. The Toyota that I have to work with has a distributor so I can have the benefit of physically moving the timing to find THE SPOT! Its still fuel injected and I think that's a major benefit. I look forward to this endeavor.
What i think that has help me along with the HHO, is that I've worked on so many engines internally, hot rodded, raced and restored cars that the basics are surpassed by far. I'm not a wiz at computers, but can take one apart and repair it. Programming is my short coming! I have trouble downloading things! :confused:
I have a 1970 F-100, carbureted 2 barrel, I rebuilt a 302 hydraulic roller motor from a 1989 Lincoln Mark VII, upgraded the truck with the serpentine belt drive, front disk brakes added power brake booster, added power steering, one piece aluminum drive shaft, 1979 9 inch rear end, Took out the 3 speed and replaced that with a 4 speed toploader transmission. All of this has been done for years, but I'll add power windows and a/c soon.
Point is I rebuilt the carburetor, distributor and made some adjustments to run really good. It's very strong! Without HHO ever being installed on this truck i get around 19 mpg, and i pull a twin axle car trailer behind it. I like that i have the control of fuel mixture with a carb. I think it would possibly be a better way to go with just using HHO as assistance on a carb. Not that i don't like what I've gotten. Just theory for now.
I've been gathering old electronics of sorts to dismantle for some of the components that I think I'll need for the Toyota's system. Don't know that I can share much on that until I have some Progress though.

[Roland Jacques]

Changing pump voltage will lower pressure below that which the regulator is designed to operate. Therefore disabling the fuel pressure regulator.
Normally fuel pump generates a higher pressure than is required and the fuel pressure regulator lowers the pressure to the required amount.
Adjustment can also be made with an adjustable fuel pressure regulator.
Yes, i also believe you are correct. the "Pressure regulator" is actually a pressure relief valve. Not truly a regulator but Press Reg is what they call it so... Anyway it seems one big con to lowering the pump voltage is that also lowers the ability to deliver enough volume of fuel in high demand times.

If we could simple lower the pressure by changing the PSI of the pressure regulator this could be better than playing with the pump voltage because the at least it would always have enough fuel. It seems like an adjustable pressure reg would worth trying.(If that is even doable?)



Thinking out loud here
If lower pressure equals lower volume of fuel & less atomization/larger droplets.
Larger droplets equals longer burn time.
Since HHO equals a faster burn time, and lower pressure, equals longer burn time, they could be a good match for our use.

[Madsceintist]

Summit Racing sells adjustable regulators, as well as any import performance shop. Problem with that is that a regulator is spring set and or spring set/vacuum controlled, which puts a major limit on your range. Springs have a certain range they work within, depending on the force applied. Vacuum assist gives some benefit as that the vacuum increases pressure by demand. Regardless if you eliminate a regulator in the system designed for one you don't get enough fuel when needed, thus to lean and starving for fuel. Also, its easier to adjust the voltage to the pump(which has a check valve to hold a minimal pressure), then to have a fully adjustable regulator on demand. Your not limiting the supply of fuel by reducing the pressure, just reducing the pressure, however you do limit the supply if there is no fuel!

Weapon_R
Because you reduce what the regulator can regulate, doesn't mean it's not working. A pressure regulator holds pressure UP TO a determined amount, then releases at that point to keep a specified pressure.
Unless you can program the ecm, cpu, cars computer then you can't stop the injectors from opening. If there's is fuel present under pressure or not it will enter through the injectors due to slight pressure that's inherent to a pumped system. I.E. back to the to lean and being starved condition.

[Madsceintist]

The adjustable pressure regulators are for race applications and such. Mostly for significantly raising the pressure for increasing power in performance cars.

[myoldyourgold]

How to regulate the fuel supply electronically has already been figured out. It is adjusting it to meet the changing load with a set volume of HHO that makes the electronics expensive and more complicated but methods that bring the cost down and complexity are being worked on. You have to remember that you have a constant given supply of HHO that does not vary and you have to keep the ratio of fuel to HHO the same, or at an optimum ratio, over most of the different load demands to make things work efficiently and effectively. If you had a reserve tank of HHO this would solve a number of problems but safety is the issue there making it impossible at the moment. I am working on electronic solutions coupled with other mechanical solutions and hopefully will eventually have a solution that will not cost an arm or leg and your first born. The first stage is ready for testing and even though it is only part of the total needed solution it will be able to give you above normal gains with little to no loss in performance and all done electronically with you driving normally with no need for you to adjust anything once set. The same type of electronics would be needed if adjusting the fuel pressure/volume, if this is a viable option, but in my understanding of things it is just adding another problem to the solution and upping the cost and possibly reducing the reliability of the whole system. In tank fuel pumps are not cheap!! Any extra stress on them and their life expectancy goes down. Some require removing the gas tank to change or service adding to the long term cost of things.

[myoldyourgold]

Here is a patent that should give you some information and describes some of the things you need to deal with.

http://www.google.com/patents/US5237975


Patent US5237975...
'Inventors'...Randal A. Betki
Thomas E. Wiseman
Brian C. Prodin
Stephen T. Kempfer
Michael R. Tinskey

A returnless fuel delivery control system is disclosed which regulates fuel rail pressure at the level needed for precise control of the fuel mass flow to the fuel injectors at both normal and elevated engine temperatures. This regulation is accomplished by precisely controlling the speed of the fuel pump motor as a function of the projected fuel demand based on engine rpm and injector pulse width. The projection is modified as a function of differetnial pressure error. The differential pressure error responds to a fuel temperature strategy which increases the the target differential pressure as a function of fuel temperature.

[Weapon_R]

Just to clarify. Fuel demand changes with load and rpm etc. Fuel pressure is adjusted to lean fuel within a small range for testing purpose only. So I may lower fuel pressure and drive or rev car to 1500 rpm not above. Above that and the engine will starve. Not very practical for daily driving but do able.
Best approach it to adjust fuel pressure based on demand. As demand increases so does fuel. As myoldyourgold has already said currently the is a costly venture but there may be a away around this. The technology is already available.

[Weapon_R]

The adjustable pressure regulators are for race applications and such. Mostly for significantly raising the pressure for increasing power in performance cars.

They can also be used to lower pressure. Most stock cars run fuel pressure 35 to 45 psi. Adjustable regulators can go as low as 1psi up to 140 psi. However and pwm on the fuel pump may be better for lowering fuel pressure. This will require constant manual adjustment if you operating at varying rpms and load.
You can also use map sensor voltage to control pwm but that is another story.

[Weapon_R]

Here is a patent that should give you some information and describes some of the things you need to deal with.

http://www.google.com/patents/US5237975


Patent US5237975...
'Inventors'...Randal A. Betki
Thomas E. Wiseman
Brian C. Prodin
Stephen T. Kempfer
Michael R. Tinskey

A returnless fuel delivery control system is disclosed which regulates fuel rail pressure at the level needed for precise control of the fuel mass flow to the fuel injectors at both normal and elevated engine temperatures. This regulation is accomplished by precisely controlling the speed of the fuel pump motor as a function of the projected fuel demand based on engine rpm and injector pulse width. The projection is modified as a function of differetnial pressure error. The differential pressure error responds to a fuel temperature strategy which increases the the target differential pressure as a function of fuel temperature.
This type of system is already in use by some major car manufacturers.

[Weapon_R]

Summit Racing sells adjustable regulators, as well as any import performance shop. Problem with that is that a regulator is spring set and or spring set/vacuum controlled, which puts a major limit on your range. Springs have a certain range they work within, depending on the force applied. Vacuum assist gives some benefit as that the vacuum increases pressure by demand. Regardless if you eliminate a regulator in the system designed for one you don't get enough fuel when needed, thus to lean and starving for fuel. Also, its easier to adjust the voltage to the pump(which has a check valve to hold a minimal pressure), then to have a fully adjustable regulator on demand. Your not limiting the supply of fuel by reducing the pressure, just reducing the pressure, however you do limit the supply if there is no fuel!

Weapon_R
Because you reduce what the regulator can regulate, doesn't mean it's not working. A pressure regulator holds pressure UP TO a determined amount, then releases at that point to keep a specified pressure.
Unless you can program the ecm, cpu, cars computer then you can't stop the injectors from opening. If there's is fuel present under pressure or not it will enter through the injectors due to slight pressure that's inherent to a pumped system. I.E. back to the to lean and being starved condition.

What I meant was that the pressure if below the cracking pressure of the regulator, then there will be no pressure to regulate.

[myoldyourgold]

This type of system is already in use by some major car manufacturers.

The patent I posted is owned by Ford.

[myoldyourgold]

Just to clarify. Fuel demand changes with load and rpm etc. Fuel pressure is adjusted to lean fuel within a small range for testing purpose only. So I may lower fuel pressure and drive or rev car to 1500 rpm not above. Above that and the engine will starve. Not very practical for daily driving but do able.
Best approach it to adjust fuel pressure based on demand. As demand increases so does fuel. As myoldyourgold has already said currently the is a costly venture but there may be a away around this. The technology is already available.

Just in case there is a misunderstanding here and with other post I have made on this subject, I want to make it clear to get REALLY GOOD GAINS will upset the computer throw a code or worse unless you use electronics. The object is run a supper lean mixture with very little excess heat. The computer is smart enough to detect this. If you want to put up with a car that drives like dogy doo or have small gains making it more drivable then this is an option. To be honest in some vehicles you will get the same small gains by just adding a small amount of HHO and nothing else other than resetting the computer a few times and on some weekly. If you want something really worthwhile you are going to have to deal with the computer. End of story.

[Weapon_R]

Just in case there is a misunderstanding here and with other post I have made on this subject, I want to make it clear to get REALLY GOOD GAINS will upset the computer throw a code or worse unless you use electronics. The object is run a supper lean mixture with very little excess heat. The computer is smart enough to detect this. If you want to put up with a car that drives like dogy doo or have small gains making it more drivable then this is an option. To be honest in some vehicles you will get the same small gains by just adding a small amount of HHO and nothing else other than resetting the computer a few times and on some weekly. If you want something really worthwhile you are going to have to deal with the computer. End of story.

I agree if you want a drivable vehicle. As I have said this method only used for testing.
Beat computer by simply unplugging o2 sensor and force open loop. If vehicle does not got into limp mode your all set.:D
Tweak away.

[Weapon_R]

The patent I posted is owned by Ford.

Silly me. Didn't look that far. Lol

[madman]

My understanding of engines esp. this newer stuff (obd2) is basic. Most of the computer stuff gets complicated. I do not see fuel pressure control doing any good. I think the amount of fuel being reduced is needed. The injectors need to stay open for a shorter time or fire less often.

1) what are all the variables that affect the amount of fuel delivered?

2) What is avaliable for a resonable price that can control #1 ?

Did not mean to hyjack the thread but I would really like to get some basics on the fuel thing.

Thanks,

Madman

[Madsceintist]

What I meant was that the pressure if below the cracking pressure of the regulator, then there will be no pressure to regulate.


Any amount of fuel in the system with the pump running WILL create pressure! The regulator works from 0-set release, not set pressure-back. And its not just pressure but volume as well. I put a super charger on a 03 mercury marauder 4.6 dohc engine, intercooler, injectors, chip, gauges, the works. Yet the car would nose dive coming out of second gear. Fuel pressure was in spec, everything checked out time and time again. And it still nose-dived. Just a hunch, we put dual high volume pumps side by side in tank, and sure enough, it launched and kept the nose high. That car was AMAZING to drive.
High pressure or low doesn't mean high volume or low! I read that high volume at very low pressure aerates the fuel. Which didn't make much sense to me, but I'm just digging into this aspect of these things.

[Weapon_R]

Any amount of fuel in the system with the pump running WILL create pressure! The regulator works from 0-set release, not set pressure-back. And its not just pressure but volume as well. I put a super charger on a 03 mercury marauder 4.6 dohc engine, intercooler, injectors, chip, gauges, the works. Yet the car would nose dive coming out of second gear. Fuel pressure was in spec, everything checked out time and time again. And it still nose-dived. Just a hunch, we put dual high volume pumps side by side in tank, and sure enough, it launched and kept the nose high. That car was AMAZING to drive.
High pressure or low doesn't mean high volume or low! I read that high volume at very low pressure aerates the fuel. Which didn't make much sense to me, but I'm just digging into this aspect of these things.

Madsceintist thank you for that info. Something to look into.

[Roland Jacques]

the pump(which has a check valve to hold a minimal pressure), then to have a fully adjustable regulator on demand. Your not limiting the supply of fuel by reducing the pressure, just reducing the pressure, however you do limit the supply if there is no fuel!

This is NOT correct. A check valve can hold a minimal internal pump pressure, but that has nothing to do with output pressure (system pressure). The pump does not, and cannot hold a minimum output pressure,no pump can . System pressure is always dependent upon resistant/restriction. In this case it's the injectors and regulator/relief valve.



High pressure or low doesn't mean high volume or low!

Yes and no, as far as the fuel system goes, yes this is true. But as far as the fuel pump goes, there is a direct relationship with pump speed,pressure, & volume.
As for the fuel system it depends on how you lower the pressure. And the entire system configuration & demand requirements...
Lowering the voltage to a pump, WILL lower it's volume capacity but maybe not below the systems requirements.

If your pump, @14 volts is rated at 60 PSI and 0.5 GPM then that is the max it can put out. But if your regulator is adjusted to 40 psi. The injector's see 40 psi and can draw 0.5 GPM.

Lowering the voltage (slowing the pump) with voltage control, to say 35 PSI, will make the max GPM go down also, for the sake of this conversation lets just say to 0.35GPM.
If WOT require 4.5GPM to meet demand then your system will fall short and you will notice the lack of fuel volume.
But If WOT require only 3.5GPM to meet demand then your system run fine, and you could say that lowering the pressure did not lower (needed) volume.

[Madsceintist]

[QUOTE=Roland Jacques;48641]This is NOT correct. A check valve can hold a minimal internal pump pressure, but that has nothing to do with output pressure (system pressure). The pump does not, and cannot hold a minimum output pressure,no pump can . System pressure is always dependent upon resistant/restriction. In this case it's the injectors and regulator/relief valve.





I wasn't saying that the pumps check valve holds up the pressure while it's producing, but when it's NOT producing. When you shut your car off the check valve(a ball bearing style, some diaphragm) falls into place to keep the fuel from draining to keep the system primed and slightly pressurized. Different manufactures use different methods of this, but it's generally the same principal.

[Madsceintist]

Quote from Roland;
Yes and no, as far as the fuel system goes, yes this is true. But as far as the fuel pump goes, there is a direct relationship with pump speed,pressure, & volume.
As for the fuel system it depends on how you lower the pressure. And the entire system configuration & demand requirements...
Lowering the voltage to a pump, WILL lower it's volume capacity but maybe not below the systems requirements.

If your pump, @14 volts is rated at 60 PSI and 0.5 GPM then that is the max it can put out. But if your regulator is adjusted to 40 psi. The injector's see 40 psi and can draw 0.5 GPM.

Lowering the voltage (slowing the pump) with voltage control, to say 35 PSI, will make the max GPM go down also, for the sake of this conversation lets just say to 0.35GPM.
If WOT require 4.5GPM to meet demand then your system will fall short and you will notice the lack of fuel volume.
But If WOT require only 3.5GPM to meet demand then your system run fine, and you could say that lowering the pressure did not lower (needed) volume.[/QUOTE]

...........
A high pressure pump has different veins than a high volume pump, and a different winding for the motor itself. You can use the same voltage with either but will produce different flow rates. Yes pressure and volume are related in the sense that the pump is used to do both, but not the same thing. Your pressure is directly related to the restriction not volume!

[myoldyourgold]

I think we need to go back to auto mechanics 101 but the problem with that is that in my case there were only mechanical pumps and the few electric pumps which were point operated. Not many of you will understand that. LOL I have taken the liberty to put together the basics that I have collected in my research over the years and even though some of it is my own and not direct quotes a lot of it is and I did not save where I collected the information from to give credit where credit is due. Sorry about that but I think my notes will help in understanding why I think electronics are necessary and the best way to go in a lot of cases if not all.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g215/yenom_1945/fuelpump.png

This is a schematic of a high-pressure fuel pump and is called a roller cell pump, with the fuel entering the pump and being compressed by rotating cells which force it through the pump at a high pressure. The pump can produce a pressure of 8 bar (120 psi) with a delivery rate of approximately 4 to 5 LPM. Within the pump is a pressure relief valve that lifts off its seat at 8 bar to arrest the pressure if a blockage in the filter or fuel lines or elsewhere causes it to become obstructed. The other end of the pump (output) is home to a non-return valve which, when the voltage to the pump is removed, closes the return to the tank and maintains pressure within the system. The normal operating pressure within this system is approximately 2 bar (30 psi) but this can vary, at which the current draw on the pump is 3 to 5 amps. Fuel passing across the fuel pump's armature is subjected to sparks and arcing; this sounds quite dangerous, but the absence of oxygen means that there will not be an explosion! and helps to keep it cool.


The majority of fuel pumps fitted to today’s vehicles are fitted within the vehicle’s fuel tank and are referred to as ‘submerged’ fuel pumps. The pump is invariably located with the fuel sender unit and both units can sometimes be accessed through an inspection hole either in the trunk floor or under the rear seat but in a lot of cases requires the tank to be removed.

A conventional ‘flow and return’ system has a supply of fuel delivered to the fuel rail, and the unwanted fuel is passed through the pressure regulator back to the tank. It is the restriction in the fuel line created by the pressure regulator that provides the systems operational pressure.

Returnless fuel systems have been adopted by several vehicle manufacturers and differ from the conventional by having a delivery system only to the fuel rail with no return flow back to the tank.
The returnless systems, both the mechanical and the electronic versions, were necessitated by emissions laws in some parts of the world. The absence of heated fuel returning to the fuel tank reduces the amount of evaporative emissions, while the fuel lines are kept short, thus reducing build costs.
The electric version has all the required components fitted within the one unit of the submersible fuel pump. It contains a small particle filter (in addition to the strainer), pump, electronic pressure regulator, fuel level sensor and a sound isolation system. The electronic pressure regulator allows the pressure to be increased under acceleration conditions, and the pump’s output can be adjusted to suit the engine's fuel demand. This prolongs the pump’s life as it is no longer providing a larger than required output delivery.
The Electronic Control Module (ECM) supplies the required pressure information, while the fuel pump’s output signal is supplied in the form of a digital square wave. Altering the square wave’s duty cycle affects the pump’s delivery output.
To compensate for the changing viscosity of the fuel with changing fuel temperature, a fuel rail temperature sensor is installed. A pulsation damper may also be fitted ahead of or inside the fuel rail.
This should give you a better understanding of the newer fuel pump systems and what we are having to deal with. Just changing the voltage in such a system will not work but the right electronics will!!

[Roland Jacques]

Returnless fuel systems is a differently a different animal. Thanks for that info:)

[myoldyourgold]

In a ‘flow through’ system the fuel is delivered to the fuel rail, and the unused fuel is passed through a pressure regulator back to the tank. It is the constriction in the return fuel line created by the pressure regulator that provides the systems operational pressure. In order to starve the system the pressure must be below the pressure regulator restriction.

WARNING Melted valves, holes in piston crowns and scratched cylinders from broken rings and landings are just a few of the possible results from having a fuel-lean condition. Just like hitting the oxygen lever on an oxy-acetylene torch allows it to cut through metal, having an overabundance of airflow without an adequate amount of fuel can torch the components within your engine's cylinders. When a fuel system is not up to spec, the end result is often melted pistons and an unplanned engine overhaul. This is what could happen if you run in open loop with the check engine light on and are still leaning things out. By adding HHO, water injection, and O3 in the proper amounts you can run to a leaner point before all the above happens. I have seen the results of a lean fuel condition and it is expensive and in some cases just reduces the engine to scrap metal!!

[Madsceintist]

In a ‘flow through’ system the fuel is delivered to the fuel rail, and the unused fuel is passed through a pressure regulator back to the tank. It is the constriction in the return fuel line created by the pressure regulator that provides the systems operational pressure. In order to starve the system the pressure must be below the pressure regulator restriction.

WARNING Melted valves, holes in piston crowns and scratched cylinders from broken rings and landings are just a few of the possible results from having a fuel-lean condition. Just like hitting the oxygen lever on an oxy-acetylene torch allows it to cut through metal, having an overabundance of airflow without an adequate amount of fuel can torch the components within your engine's cylinders. When a fuel system is not up to spec, the end result is often melted pistons and an unplanned engine overhaul. This is what could happen if you run in open loop with the check engine light on and are still leaning things out. By adding HHO, water injection, and O3 in the proper amounts you can run to a leaner point before all the above happens. I have seen the results of a lean fuel condition and it is expensive and in some cases just reduces the engine to scrap metal!!

More than True...................