Revive HHO Underground Information

[dixiepc]

This for you guys that were in with H2OPWR on the planning and design of his Magnetic Beastie. I wonder if there is a way to recompile some of the design specs that were lost when HHO Underground went under? It seems that there was even some CAD drawings that were lost. I know that myoldyourgold and bio farmer were in on this with Larry, is there anyone else here that was in on this? Let's see if we can get this information back up so everybody can have access to it again.

Thanks

[BioFarmer93]

Someone call Hell and get a weather report- because unless they've had a recent freeze, I seriously doubt any of that build will see the light of day again unless it is from Larry himself and information he backed up during the window of time Nick made available after so many complaints. We can always hope, though...:cool:

[Havens78]

This for you guys that were in with H2OPWR on the planning and design of his Magnetic Beastie. I wonder if there is a way to recompile some of the design specs that were lost when HHO Underground went under? It seems that there was even some CAD drawings that were lost. I know that myoldyourgold and bio farmer were in on this with Larry, is there anyone else here that was in on this? Let's see if we can get this information back up so everybody can have access to it again.

Thanks


The videos that he has posted on his youtube site are a great resource that you can use now. Given the time I think it would be very simple to take notes from the videos and remake the magnetic experiment. This project on a smaller scale would be much simpler to construct, it has been difficult to refrain from trying to add magnets to my current unipolar build. I would of course recommend trying to contact larry about this first if you felt inclined to try it.

Havens

[lhazleton]

Someone call Hell and get a weather report- because unless they've had a recent freeze, I seriously doubt any of that build will see the light of day again unless it is from Larry himself and information he backed up during the window of time Nick made available after so many complaints. We can always hope, though...:cool:

Nice thought Gus.:) I'm afraid that anything we had on the Underground is long gone. As you said, Nick left the site open long enough for all to save any information we wanted. It's still sad that it's gone.........we all had a really great time with Nick. I personally haven't heard anything from him since summer.:(

[Madsceintist]

Forgive the ignorance but whats HHO Underground ?

[BioFarmer93]

You mean what was the HHO underground... It was a semi-private HHO site that used to exist, known as Nick's Realm / The HHO Underground, that got taken down for numerous small reasons that added up to enough of a PITA for the owner (Nick) to not want to deal with it anymore. It was a well run tight ship and the BS was kept to a minimum even though jokes and fun were well tolerated. Spammers never had a chance and were blown out of the water immediately.

[myoldyourgold]

Hy Shane whats up on your end?

[dixiepc]

Shane,

Would you be willing to post those files?

Thanks

[BioFarmer93]

did hell freeze over yet??? Remember I did the cad work for Larry and yes I have the files.....

Took you long enough to speak up, Shane! - Why are you showing up as a noob???:confused:

[lhazleton]

did hell freeze over yet??? Remember I did the cad work for Larry and yes I have the files.....

Well, well, well.............looks like our friend from Georgia is still around after all.:D
Betcha your files would be greatly appreciated, Shane (even if yer just a newb).:rolleyes:
Anything new with the 'does everything' PWM? More importantly, have you heard from Helz at all???????????????????????????

[myoldyourgold]

I have one suggestion before anyone duplicates this is to ask Larry if there is any thing he would change. I will see if I can get him to answer this. With the testing he did, I am sure he will have some good advice.

[H2OPWR]

I will try and drop by with my 2 cents worth when I can. I have been so busy with my 7 year old sons Hockey that I have had to put HHO aside for a while. Beleive me when I say that in Alaska Hockey is all consuming. I will give this some thought and post what I would change.

The #1 thing I would change would be to eliminate the bolt through plate design. I know some swear by it but having done both several times I think with proper end stiffners that eliminating the bolt holes in the plate would really help sealing it up. It also eliminates possible shorting out.

#2 Instead of bolt holes as wlwctrical connections I would use slots. That way you could just drop the rod in instead of feeding it through. Other than that I would not change anything.

I will stop back later when I get more time.

Larry

[dixiepc]

Thanks Larry for taking the time to help out. Anything you can put in will be very helpful.

[dixiepc]

Anybody else?

[dixiepc]

What happened to the CAD files that Shane posted?

[dixiepc]

Larry,

Can you explain to me how there is no current leakage with your plate design.

With the slots on top it looks like this design uses more of the plate surface than the ones with holes.

In the cells with holes the plates are alternated to keep the current leakage down.

I am just trying to understand all of this to make a decision on which way I want to go.

I know I want a dry cell but I don't know if I want a bipolar of a unipolar.

If I go with a bipolar cell will your plate design work with it as well as a unipolar cell.

Thanks

[H2OPWR]

I will try and answer your questions the best I can.

First, There is no current leakage because there are no neutral or bipolar plates in the design and each stacks electrolyte is completely isolated from the adjacent stack. In a +nnnnnn- setup there is a voltage potential of 14 volts between the + and the - connected plates. The neutral plates devide the voltage. There is the potential for current to skip through the holes in the plates or even through the hoses and reservoir causing higher than need voltage creating HHO. That is very wasteful. With my design since each plate is connected to power and the voltage is split by electrical connection current leakage can't possibly happen because there is no electrical path to a higher voltage potential.

Second, Actually the slotted plates have far greater plate loss than plates with holes but increased circulation and ease of gas exit more than make up for that. Besides just size your plates for the surface area you want. The cost of the electricity will far outweigh the cost of the stainless over the life of the reactor.

Last my plate design will not be useful in a bipolar style reactor. Far too much current leakage will occur. Just a little friendly advice. For your first design do not even attempt something as complicated as the beastie was. Just do a bipolar design with neutral plates. Media blast the plates and coat the areas around your holes with weldon 16. Have fun and play with it. I am obsessed with effeciency. All and I mean All my work over the last couple of years was purely experimental. None of those many designs were ever meant for automotive use. I love the challenge of making a better mousetrap and I can afford financially to play. The beastie cost several thousand dollars to make and hours upon hours of hard work.

The other approach I might take for automotive use would be to make six small seperate devices all connected +-+-+-and hook them up in series. This would split the voltage without the complex design and minimize current leakage.

Larry

[myoldyourgold]

Larry, I am going to add to this. The slots on the exit ports will work very well in a bipolar reactor but not the input port on the bottom for the reasons you mentioned.

In my testing of Unipolar reactors I have seen something that I can only explain as current leakage. The last plate in each group might be turning bipolar and with electrolyte on both sides of it there is production on the side that does not have a corresponding plate. It is not much but it is there and is not coming through the input port from the other side. This has been seen by others too.

There is a change in polarity somewhere between the last plate in one group and the first in the next group. As you know I am somewhat electrically challenged so am not sure if this is possible. One thing I can say is the use of Weldon (thanks to you for that) stops the production on the back side of the last plate in a group.

[BioFarmer93]

Larry,
I'm glad you checked in, I was going to give you another day before I answered that one- didn't know if he was hot to cut plates or not, but wasn't sure what your schedule was like these days.

Carter,
Buddy you can eliminate that little problem by using a solid gasket against the endplate and/or arranging the plates so that first & last plates in a group are the same polarity and/or giving each group its own reservoir. Many cats and many ways to skin them. (My apologies to PETA):eek:;):D

[dixiepc]

Thanks guys (Larry, Carter, and Gus) for all the input.

I am planning to build a cell that will give me about 6lpm. I have a Suburban with a non-computer controlled 6.2L diesel that I want to use this on.

I will build a high quality cell but do not have alot of money for experimentation, so I need to get it right the first time. Thus all the questions.

Carter, if I build a bipolar cell could I use slots on the top of my plates and alternating holes on the bottom with Weldon? I think the slots are a great idea for utilizing the plate surface better.

I found a site last night that had a great idea for a place to mount a cell. I'm not sure about their metal end plates and I think that they're not using enough plates. Check them out and let me know what you think. Their site is http://evolutionhho.com/hho-cells

Larry, I don't think that I would ever tackle something as involved as your Beastie, I just liked your design and thought I could modify it to fit my needs. I am not married to the unipolar design and if a bipolar cell will fulfill my requirements I will be just as happy.

Gus, your stuff was the first that I saw when I found this forum. I have probably have read every post that you have made and have learned alot from them. Yes, I am hot to cut some plates, but I'm not going to until I am sure that I have every t crossed and every i dotted.

I have my own blast cabinet and have access to CNC laser cutters. So I have plate construction and prep in the bag.

I welcome any and all input that you guys have.

Thanks again,
Monty

[myoldyourgold]

Monty, The slot on the top in both bipolar and unipolar is an excellent way to go for more than one reason. The space across the top on a hole plate is wasted and must be subtracted from active area. With a narrow slot it actually gives you more active area (less to subtract), small amount more, but some, and of course the gas does not have to hunt, bounce of the top create more pressure and lower the level of the electrolyte and reduce the active area even more to get out. Also the errant ions that do not get used by the plate are bounced off the gasket back and hit other ions of the opposite charge neutralizing them reducing production. Easy out is one of the things that really helps. It does not need to be very big either, as narrow as you can make it unless you have a huge plate. Size should be related to volume of production in the cell. Make sure you have a small brace in the center to keep the plate from possibly bending and shorting from heat or vibration. The center brace is important especially when media blasting. There is one more thing that is splitting hairs to some but I have good evidence that it does make a small difference. The slot needs to be a 1/2 inch away from the side gasket that has the power connection. By giving up this small area on the unipolar (power) plates only you have less current leakage. Even though Weldon does one heck of a job the current density that close to the source is very high. I put Weldon on that area too. Remember it is only on the unipolar/power plates. I admit it is splitting hairs but every little thing helps when added together.

I must thank both Larry and Gus for the years of help they have given me!! Two unbelievable good guys!!

Gus, the only method of stopping the small leakage that I found besides the Weldon was a full gasket as you said. The others still had the same problem but less. It is very little, not noticeable unless you are looking for it, and not a real problem but it is robbing the end cell and the first cell in the next group of a little. The full gasket created other problems and you lost the extra pocket that helped maintain more even electrolyte levels in the group without have to run in a full flooded state all the time and added heat protection which is really not necessary unless you are in a climate where ambient is over 100ºF or the reactor is located in the engine compartment where ambient can be as high as 150ºF ambient or hotter on hot days. Ambient temperature and dry air is one of the reasons I have been in California as long as I have to solve some of the problems that are related to hotter dry climates compared to the cool and extreme cold of North Dakota. The pockets on either end of the groups have proved to make a measurable difference in warmer conditions. In colder climates not so much but still enough to keep them but for different reasons. In extreme colder climates the extra electrolyte besides helping maintain levels allows you to still operate in colder ambient without freezing solid or sit longer out in the cold before things begin to get slushy and you have to push the remote starter and let the engine warm up while shopping. LOL Larry knows what I am talking about.

[H2OPWR]

Yes Carter, I know about cars running at the shopping center. January was the coldest month on record in Anchorage. EVERY car at every shopping center was running. Many with keys in the ignition. A car theves paradise but no one seems to ever steal one. My 7 year old played a hockey game in a tournament 3 weekends ago at -24 ambiant with a wind chill to -48 degrees F. The kids were OK because of how they were dressed but the parents almost froze to death. I am not sure that even 28% KOH would have survived that day.

Larry

[H2OPWR]

When Media blasting use extreme caution with these thin plates. Many have given up due to warpage. Blast a little on one side then flip the plate over and blast a little on the other side. Do this over and over until you are done. Stay completely away from any media bigger than 80 grit. Never get the blast nozzel closer than about 10 inches and never run over 60 psi while blasting. If you do those things you will get good results.

Larry

[myoldyourgold]

Besides what Larry has posted on media blasting I found another method to help in the warping problem. I have mine done commercially and had to teach them how to do it after they warped the test plates really bad. By cutting an X pattern on both sides which releases surface tension evenly over both sides of the plate with low pressure and then follow Larry's advise. The commercial set up has to change nozzles and pressure to cut a small (narrow) X from corner to corner on each side and then changes the the nozzle and pressure and the whole plate gets blasted with one pass. To do this very quickly makes it a two man job. He first does all the X's the extra guy (me LOL) turns things over so he does not stop. After changing nozzle and pressure again He then blasts all of them on one side and while he is doing that the other guy (getting media in every orifice of his body with a poor fitting suit) is flipping the plates over so he can blast the other side making it a quick process. I am charged by the minute so speed is very important to me. They have it down to a real quick process now. This is all done in a blasting room that two car bodies or frames can fit in at a time end to end and you are suited up from head to toe with an outside filtered air tube to breath from. There is still some minor warping on a few plates where he got to close but very little and can be straightened if you know what you are doing with out damaging the surface. 18 gauge works much better when blasting because it is much more forgiving than 20 or 22 gauge. Because of the large number of plates I have had done at a time it is reasonabley priced. In small numbers it is to expensive.

[dixiepc]

I think that the license plate cell is a good idea. The cell will be wider than tall so the bubbles might go out faster. Also there will be alot of surface area per plate so maybe I can get the production that I need with only three stacks so it won't be as thick.

I'm sure that with plates that large I will have to have at least two places for hookup on the power plates.

Larry and Carter, thank you for the advise on blasting the plates, I will be careful.

Could you guys comment on this type of a cell design?

Thanks Monty

[myoldyourgold]

Here is what I think. Wider is better than taller only if you use a slot across the top. If you are going to use a hole for an exit port then taller is better. I would not put any reactor in front of the bumper. You are just asking for trouble by doing that. Even just someone backing up could damage your reactor enough to short it so when you turned it on it could explode. Mainly noise but electrolyte all over the car will be a bad thing. Behind the bumper is OK. Not in front.