HHO System for a 5.4 Liter BMW V12

[sbeckman7]

Hi guys,

Let me start by saying this thread is - for the time being - dedicated solely to outlining a build plan, as I won't begin construction for another few months. Anyways, I'm hoping to design a system that will provide some very noticeable results in my car. This is my car so far:

http://oi54.tinypic.com/6r6cg0.jpg
http://oi54.tinypic.com/2vke1y9.jpg


Details of the Engine:

Stock, re-gasketed M73B54 from a 1998 BMW 750iL with 120k miles.
- 5.4 liters, SOHC
- 326hp/ 361 ft-lb torque
- 10:1 Compression ratio
- waterpump pulley spacer which allows deletion of A/C, powersteering, and all accessories except the alternator
- Alusil (Aluminum/Silicone) Block
- Redline 6,000 rpm



Pictures:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/dp2275/100_1057.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/dp2275/100_1058.jpg



There is no definite goal for the gains of the HHO system, just something that can provide a noticeable difference in power, fuel economy, or both. If I could get a 25-30% increase in either range or power, I would be more than satisfied. But, as space or time isn't really a limiting factor in this, I figured I would see what can really be done on a reasonable budget. Since the engine has no accessories I would be able to attach a second alternator devoted solely to the HHO system without seeing an increase in parasitic drag. I want to hear more about the recommended .25-.5 LPM per liter of displacement number, as I am curious why this number couldn't be increased provided one had the air/fuel to match the HHO output. In short, I'm looking for a good dry-cell setup. I've watched all of Mike's HHO Connection videos so I have a good idea of what's needed, but it's the power supply of voltage/amps that still confuses me. Please chime in on what you would recommend for a setup on this engine! If anyone has questions, please ask.

Thanks,

Spencer

[sbeckman7]

...Anyone?

[sbeckman7]

Any takers?

[Havens78]

With the information on this forum you should be able to build a great dry cell that will give you your needed 2.7 Liters Per Minute at around 35-37 amps with the standard 13.8 volts produced by the vehicle. If you plan on making the vehicle 16 volt compatible i'm not sure of those numbers as I personally have not experimented with a 16 volt system. Biggest thing is tuning your engine to accept the extra hho, this doesn't look like a problem for what you're doing.

Hit the search on some of the mentors' posts, tons of information on here about plate design and setup.

[sbeckman7]

Thanks for the reassurance :) I've been reading like a madman, sounds like a unipolar dry cell setup is the way to go.

[mattsimis]

Ill be putting HHO onto this engines bigger brother at some point, a S70 (5.6litre, 400bhp). I also am dubious on the 0.25litres of HHO per litre of CC, but I guess its just a rough guideline. Im currently testing on a 4.0 M60 V8 (BMW engine from 540i).

I dont accept that an Evo 8 at 400bhp with a 2litre engine needs vastly less HHO than an old Yank tank with a 7litre V8 putting out 250bhp despite the fueling requirements on the EVO being higher. BSFC has to drive HHO usage, the same way it drives Fuel Injector sizing.

When working out Water Meth injection requirements you do not look at total CC of engine, you look at what the installed Fuel Injectors inject per Min.

[myoldyourgold]

I think we have always recommended .5 LPM per liter for a starting point. Some take more and some take less. A lot depends on the quality of the gas. You are right about the injector size. I think it is better stated that a vehicle that requires more fuel at a given rpm requires more HHO at that rpm. Most are tuned to the rpm where the vehicle is driven the most. I found turning it off at idle and when not needed like coasting down hill is a benefit and actually saves fuel.

[Bhart]

Why stop at two alternators

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pQeeUkPoyk&feature=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pQeeUkPoyk&feature=youtu.be

[sbeckman7]

Why stop at two alternators

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pQeeUkPoyk&feature=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pQeeUkPoyk&feature=youtu.be

I think that's nearly able to produce enough HHO to run the car pure ;)

[sbeckman7]

Ill be putting HHO onto this engines bigger brother at some point, a S70 (5.6litre, 400bhp). I also am dubious on the 0.25litres of HHO per litre of CC, but I guess its just a rough guideline. Im currently testing on a 4.0 M60 V8 (BMW engine from 540i).

I dont accept that an Evo 8 at 400bhp with a 2litre engine needs vastly less HHO than an old Yank tank with a 7litre V8 putting out 250bhp despite the fueling requirements on the EVO being higher. BSFC has to drive HHO usage, the same way it drives Fuel Injector sizing.

When working out Water Meth injection requirements you do not look at total CC of engine, you look at what the installed Fuel Injectors inject per Min.

Please keep me informed with your progress! I've PMed you as well.

[madman]

Spencer,

I noticed you mentioned maybe going with a unipolar drycell. For your application esp. if size in engine compartment will be tight a more standard BIPOLAR reactor will work just fine. From personal experience I can tell you the unipolar is VERY difficult, more $, more time for marginal gains in eff. and production.

You will read where many say .5 amps per active sq.inch of plate area. Or more amps will harm the steel. IF you have your 316l ss plates media blasted you can raise the number to say .75 amps per sq. inch. SO a single stack 6 or 7 cells of suficient size should give you the half littre of gas per littre of engine size plus more (if needed). Better to have and need not.

I always recomend tackling one component at atime. If you search you can usually find what you need. But if you need help with conflicting info. or get confussed just ask.

By the way COOL CAR. I have been saving for a VW rail job.

Madman

[sbeckman7]

Spencer,

I noticed you mentioned maybe going with a unipolar drycell. For your application esp. if size in engine compartment will be tight a more standard BIPOLAR reactor will work just fine. From personal experience I can tell you the unipolar is VERY difficult, more $, more time for marginal gains in eff. and production.

You will read where many say .5 amps per active sq.inch of plate area. Or more amps will harm the steel. IF you have your 316l ss plates media blasted you can raise the number to say .75 amps per sq. inch. SO a single stack 6 or 7 cells of suficient size should give you the half littre of gas per littre of engine size plus more (if needed). Better to have and need not.

I always recomend tackling one component at atime. If you search you can usually find what you need. But if you need help with conflicting info. or get confussed just ask.

By the way COOL CAR. I have been saving for a VW rail job.

Madman

Thanks a lot for the tip. After reading that, I'm happy to go with a bipolar setup. Spacing won't be an issue but the more cost effective system is usually the better one in my book :) So in order to successfully inject more HHO into the engine I would need more air and fuel as well? Can HHO substitute for air or is it merely a catalyst?

[myoldyourgold]

Thanks a lot for the tip. After reading that, I'm happy to go with a bipolar setup. Spacing won't be an issue but the more cost effective system is usually the better one in my book So in order to successfully inject more HHO into the engine I would need more air and fuel as well? Can HHO substitute for air or is it merely a catalyst?
Reply With Quote

Remember the O and the H in HHO are just the right amount for a perfect burn so there should be no extra O. What type of fuel management system are you going to use?

[sbeckman7]

Remember the O and the H in HHO are just the right amount for a perfect burn so there should be no extra O. What type of fuel management system are you going to use?

Welll im thinking of using either megasquirt or something more sophisticated like Haltec. Whatever it is I'll have full control. However, your statement confused me a bit regarding the HHO. If it requires the right amount for a perfect burn, why do we need to add air at all? And why couldn't we add as much as we could make and spray more fuel into the cylinders to compensate?

[myoldyourgold]

why couldn't we add as much as we could make and spray more fuel into the cylinders to compensate?

Unless you are trying to run the vehicle on HHO alone you will need air. All the O will be needed to burn the H and if there is additional fuel it needs O to burn. Not only that there is a lot of nitrogen in the air and that is a player in this game too. Good choices as far as fuel management. With full control you should be able to get the max out of everything. This is a big and complicated project. Looking good so far!! Keep it up.

[BioFarmer93]

Welll im thinking of using either megasquirt or something more sophisticated like Haltec. Whatever it is I'll have full control. However, your statement confused me a bit regarding the HHO. If it requires the right amount for a perfect burn, why do we need to add air at all? And why couldn't we add as much as we could make and spray more fuel into the cylinders to compensate?

Sbeckman7,
What myoldyourgold means is that there is just enough O produced when you make HHO to burn the amount of H produced, perfectly. The O necessary to burn the gasoline must come from your intake air as usual.

[madman]

Spencer,

I may not be able to explain the exact technical, scientific explanation of how or why HHO works but here is the basic. You can say HHO is a fuel but we do not use it like that. Yes we burn (ignite) it but the amount we use is like a grain of sand in a sand box. Just look at the humungus amounts of air a ICE takes in everyt second and then look at the tiny amount of hho produced for a booster on a car, a couple of littres per MINUTE. Production is usually measured in LPM.

Now that little bit of HHO can create a VERY LARGE gain in your MPG. That amount depends on a lot of diff. factors. So besides saying HHO has some very unusually properties the nut is when it is ignited in the cumbustion chamber it helps to make the gas or disel burn more completly and or eficiently. Now that does not mean more MPG, but it will give you more power.

To get better mileage you must REDUCE the amount of fuel that is going to your fuel delivery system. AFR air fuel ratio needs to be ajusted BUT BE CAREFUL not to go to lean or engine will burn up. I think you mentioned you will not have all the computer junk on your build . That will make things MUCH MUCH eaiser to tune the HHO to the engine.

I quit working on cars a long time ago. Fortunately I have a good friend that is very good at it. I may be old school but there are several gear heads that can chime in here and give you more tech. help/ info.

Hope this helps,

Madman

[sbeckman7]

Thanks for the responses everyone, I get it now :) I am hoping to be able to have 2 modes in my Engine Management configuration:

1. High Mileage: Obviously lean fuel mixture with HHO supplement
2. High Power: Am I correct in stating that most members on this forum run an HHO system for the first reason, and not to gain power? I would like to see what sort of gains can be had, hopefully just by adding HHO to the normal fuel amount? Does this seem like the correct way to approach it?

Also this may be a stupid question, but does the amount of HHO produced vary with the engine speed or is it constant? I would think (and hope) that the faster the alternator spins, the more HHO is produced.

Also I'm hoping, like most, to eventually be able to run the car entirely on HHO... what kind of electrical output would I need for that? An extension cord running to the nearest power line? ;) Is there an equation one can use to find this number? Knowing how to get the number seems just as important as the number itself.

Spence

[myoldyourgold]

With simple brute force electrolysis most gains in an already efficient engine are a result of a lean fuel mixture. Remember unburnt fuel is 3% or less in most engines today or they will not pass smog. When you lean the fuel mixture out in an ICE the burn rate slows down the leaner it goes resulting in not enough time to burn all the fuel in the power stroke, making excess heat, less HP, and causes the engine to miss and over heat. The supplementation of HHO increases the combustion speed and extends the equivalence ratio lean-limit of the mixture reducing the misfiring and excess heat. The savings without leaning things out is hit and miss depending on how efficient/inefficient the engine is and your driving style. I have always been very skeptical of large gains with out leaning out the fuel. When you understand exactly what is happening, then you know that without leaning out the fuel the gains are hit and miss and marginal at best. The exceptions are almost unexplainable or more likely just fiction. With a fuel management system where you have complete control and know how to use it, will result in you being able to get the maximum possible gains and still have good HP. It takes a lot more HHO than most snake oil sales men are saying when you have control of the fuel system. Small amounts of HHO are only relevant when you have no or limited control of the fuel mixture and timing.

[sbeckman7]

With simple brute force electrolysis most gains in an already efficient engine are a result of a lean fuel mixture. Remember unburnt fuel is 3% or less in most engines today or they will not pass smog. When you lean the fuel mixture out in an ICE the burn rate slows down the leaner it goes resulting in not enough time to burn all the fuel in the power stroke, making excess heat, less HP, and causes the engine to miss and over heat. The supplementation of HHO increases the combustion speed and extends the equivalence ratio lean-limit of the mixture reducing the misfiring and excess heat. The savings without leaning things out is hit and miss depending on how efficient/inefficient the engine is and your driving style. I have always been very skeptical of large gains with out leaning out the fuel. When you understand exactly what is happening, then you know that without leaning out the fuel the gains are hit and miss and marginal at best. The exceptions are almost unexplainable or more likely just fiction. With a fuel management system where you have complete control and know how to use it, will result in you being able to get the maximum possible gains and still have good HP. It takes a lot more HHO than most snake oil sales men are saying when you have control of the fuel system. Small amounts of HHO are only relevant when you have no or limited control of the fuel mixture and timing.

So you believe that with a fully programable ECU I will be able to inject much more HHO into the system and achieve better gains?

[BioFarmer93]

You know, since you are going to have such complete control over the engines behavior, it would behoove you to look into ozone (O3) supplementation and water injection as well. The ozone production draws very little power from the electrical system and provides extra oxygen for the fuel burn (faster burn so higher specific impulse) and the water mist raises the dynamic compression ratio (flashes to steam) while lowering egt’s from the lean mixtures you will be inducing. Just a couple more weapons for your arsenal…

[sbeckman7]

You know, since you are going to have such complete control over the engines behavior, it would behoove you to look into ozone (O3) supplementation and water injection as well. The ozone production draws very little power from the electrical system and provides extra oxygen for the fuel burn (faster burn so higher specific impulse) and the water mist raises the dynamic compression ratio (flashes to steam) while lowering egt’s from the lean mixtures you will be inducing. Just a couple more weapons for your arsenal…

This sounds interesting ;) So it's basically HHO on steroids?

[myoldyourgold]

So you believe that with a fully programable ECU I will be able to inject much more HHO into the system and achieve better gains?


it would behoove you to look into ozone (O3) supplementation and water injection as well.

This is not just believing but proven fact and includes what Bio has posted. There are other steroids (as you put it) to add to the mix that are being tested as I write this.

You will have a very good situation to push everything to the limit. This will include any use of wasted energy, or any energy available from a source other than your vehicle which is free.

[sbeckman7]

This is not just believing but proven fact and includes what Bio has posted. There are other steroids (as you put it) to add to the mix that are being tested as I write this.

You will have a very good situation to push everything to the limit. This will include any use of wasted energy, or any energy available from a source other than your vehicle which is free.


Can you guys point me in the direction of any additional ozone information/testing? I'd really like to know more about it although - after consulting wikipedia - I want to make sure it isn't harmful to me or anything else.

I did find this however: http://www.biotek-ozone.com/biotek_technology.htm

Like solar power or additional batteries?

[BioFarmer93]

I would point you to specific articles, but ozone is a delicate topic and you must decide for yourself. Keep in mind that there is tons of government supported dis-information about ozone, because it is a potent sterilizer and has been successfully used in combination with oxygen to actually cure AIDS. This is documented and can be found with some research, but the government and big pharma are bed buddies and have a vested interest in keeping that little fact on the down low. The doctor that is responsible for about 500 of those complete cures may still be in jail, I haven't looked at any updates in a long time. The other reason ozone has such a bad name has to do with some chicanery that took place in Cali several years ago and concerned needing something specific to blame the air quality problem at several places on, and ozone was the erroneously chosen culprit. I forget the specifics of the story but it involved typical bureaucratic ass covering that got out of hand then got made into "truth".

[sbeckman7]

Ok, this is a bit much to process! So let me see if I've still got my head on straight...

- dedicated HHO alternator mounted to V12
- BiPolar HHO Dry Cell(s)
- Standalone Engine Management

? - How much HHO can I now use? What are the deciding factors?
? - If I use a Ozone/water injection system, does this replace the standard HHO system or will i still have an HHO production setup?
? - How to make ozone? Does it use less electrical energy than HHO production?
? - Would I still need gasoline in an ozone/water injection system or would this be 100% powered on alternative fuels?

[myoldyourgold]

How much HHO can I now use? What are the deciding factors?

The amount of HHO is directly related to how lean you are running. I have no formula for this because I have not tested on a fuel system that has complete control yet. That is coming in the future though. I have been able to use beneficially 5 lpm on a 2 liter engine but was not able to go leaner without spending more $$ than was in the budget. I am already down to one meal a day!! LOL More testing is yet to come with better water injection being added along with many other changes. I will not go into the fuel consumption at this time.


? - If I use a Ozone/water injection system, does this replace the standard HHO system or will i still have an HHO production setup?

It will not replace HHO just supplement it and allow you to go even leaner.


? - Would I still need gasoline in an ozone/water injection system or would this be 100% powered on alternative fuels?

Yes you will still need gasoline for lubrication and so you do not have to make mega amounts of HHO which would be impossible. You will have gasoline, HHO, ozone and water injection. All can work together and give you a good bottom line. Using the same system in older diesels has even a larger return. Newer diesels that are very efficient with as much as 5 injections per cycle, need a lot more work and testing to get big numbers but I am sure it can be done.

[sbeckman7]

The amount of HHO is directly related to how lean you are running. I have no formula for this because I have not tested on a fuel system that has complete control yet. That is coming in the future though. I have been able to use beneficially 5 lpm on a 2 liter engine but was not able to go leaner without spending more $$ than was in the budget. I am already down to one meal a day!! LOL More testing is yet to come with better water injection being added along with many other changes. I will not go into the fuel consumption at this time.



It will not replace HHO just supplement it and allow you to go even leaner.



Yes you will still need gasoline for lubrication and so you do not have to make mega amounts of HHO which would be impossible. You will have gasoline, HHO, ozone and water injection. All can work together and give you a good bottom line. Using the same system in older diesels has even a larger return. Newer diesels that are very efficient with as much as 5 injections per cycle, need a lot more work and testing to get big numbers but I am sure it can be done.

Ok! So it's like injecting a chemical/gas stew into our engines ;) Is your 5lpm on the 2 liter motor resulting in any power gains/losses?

[Weapon_R]

myoldyourgold

Have you tried steam or vapor instead of water injection? What type of water injection system are you using?

[sbeckman7]

myoldyourgold

Have you tried steam or vapor instead of water injection? What type of water injection system are you using?

What does the steam/vapor/water injection accomplish exactly? Does it react in the engine or just lower temps?

[myoldyourgold]

Ok! So it's like injecting a chemical/gas stew into our engines Is your 5lpm on the 2 liter motor resulting in any power gains/losses?

I did not put the vehicle on a Dyno but you could feel an increased HP.


Have you tried steam or vapor instead of water injection? What type of water injection system are you using?

No because the energy used to make the steam in my mind is a loosing proposition and more complex.


What does the steam/vapor/water injection accomplish exactly? Does it react in the engine or just lower temps?

This is a direct quote from the AEM kit.

"Water Methanol Injection is one of the best and least expensive ways to increase the power of your gas or diesel engine. Not only do you make more power in a gasoline engine, you are able to do so with more of a safety margin due to the lower air inlet temps and decreased chance of detonation that water/methanol allows. Turbo diesel engines see a significant jump in power and a drop in EGTs when running water/methanol injection - and diesels do this without the need for more tuning. So no matter what kind of engine you have; turbo diesel, supercharged or turbo gasoline engine, AEM has a Water/Methanol Injection system that will help you make more power!"

I am not recommending AEM's kit but only because I have not tested it. The company itself is a good one though, so suspect other than the cost it is a good one. I have communicated with their tech department over other matters and found them very helpful and know what they are doing.

Google will give you a lot of information on water injection both positive and negative. When done right it has been a real benefit in my testing.

[sbeckman7]

Thanks again myoldyourgold, time for me to do some more research