771 hho kit reconstruction results

[Havens78]

Many of you know that I dis-assembled the unit I was running in the family car as there were a few problems with it. Before disassembling the unit I was producing 1.5 LPM (liter bottle 40 seconds) at 30 amps/13 volts and 4 tablespoons of sodium hydroxide. After cleaning all the plates, re-sanding ( 40 grit, 4 directions -45 min a plate) and plate passivation with citric acid my results are very different. My numbers shouldn't be this low, is it possible that I did something wrong?

New numbers:
15 amps/13 volts - 1.2 LPM (liter bottle in 50 seconds) at 18 tablespoons of sodium hydroxide.

14 amps/13 volts - 1.17 LPM (Liter bottle in 53 seconds) at 16 tablespoons of sodium hydroxide.

12 amps/13 volts - .9 LPM (liter bottle in 66 seconds) at 9 tablespoons of sodium hydroxide.

The gaskets are 1/8" thick, should I just keep raising the % of sodium hydroxide until i hit the 1.25 lpm that I need for my 2.5 liter engine? My numbers shouldn't be this low without blasting and weld-on should they? I'm just confused, i'm not complaining but really i'm just trying to figure this out.


thanks.

[koya1893]

Many of you know that I dis-assembled the unit I was running in the family car as there were a few problems with it. Before disassembling the unit I was producing 1.5 LPM (liter bottle 40 seconds) at 30 amps/13 volts and 4 tablespoons of sodium hydroxide. After cleaning all the plates, re-sanding ( 40 grit, 4 directions -45 min a plate) and plate passivation with citric acid my results are very different. My numbers shouldn't be this low, is it possible that I did something wrong?

New numbers:
15 amps/13 volts - 1.2 LPM (liter bottle in 50 seconds) at 18 tablespoons of sodium hydroxide.

14 amps/13 volts - 1.17 LPM (Liter bottle in 53 seconds) at 16 tablespoons of sodium hydroxide.

12 amps/13 volts - .9 LPM (liter bottle in 66 seconds) at 9 tablespoons of sodium hydroxide.

The gaskets are 1/8" thick, should I just keep raising the % of sodium hydroxide until i hit the 1.25 lpm that I need for my 2.5 liter engine? My numbers shouldn't be this low without blasting and weld-on should they? I'm just confused, i'm not complaining but really i'm just trying to figure this out.


thanks.

The 1.2LPM and 15 amps is a norm at that mixture and with your plates threaded as yyou have. How big (capacity) is your reservoir? Instead of tblsp measurement, try using 1lb. per gl. of distilled wated with the same configuration.

Care to show us your cell configuration?

[Havens78]

The 1.2LPM and 15 amps is a norm at that mixture and with your plates threaded as yyou have. How big (capacity) is your reservoir? Instead of tblsp measurement, try using 1lb. per gl. of distilled wated with the same configuration.

Care to show us your cell configuration?

Capacity is approximately 6 quarts with the addition of the remote reservoir, and the cell was purchased from a company but started to give me some trouble and after discovering loose bolts i investigated further. The quote below is from another thread where we were discussing these units. I'm now running 16 oz of sodium hydroxide to a gallon of distilled water and my production is topped out at 1.3 lpm. For now its a good fix until i can improve the plates with blasting and weld-on. Production is down a little but I know i'm getting better efficiency because of the results I had driving this weekend. Cleaning/sanding/passivation was well worth the time it took me, i'm seeing better results.


As promised, i was cleaning/draining and found some pretty nasty looking fluid on the inside of the elbows at the reactor so I took it apart to see if everything was alright.


7x7x2.125" reactor
+nnnnn- configuration

neutrals are 5"x5.25", held in place by 1/4" gasket strips on the edges, see photos. active area is 4.75"x5", but the plates are flooded at all times.

bolts on the back were not tight at all, more than finger tight but I only needed to have the socket in my hand to take everything apart. Plates look to be very lightly sanded in a circular motion, no consistent sanding was seen on any of the plates.






I'll be hitting them hard with 40 grit sandpaper in both diagonal/horizontal/vertical directions before putting it all through a cleaning and reconstruction.

[Havens78]

I will be testing a 773 (3 stack) unit over the weeks between holidays, I will update as soon as I have test results.

[Havens78]

I will be testing a 773 (3 stack) unit over the weeks between holidays, I will update as soon as I have test results.

It took me a while to get around to it, but finally had time to test the 773.

35 amps and 13.6 volts, 2 oz of NaOH to one gallon of distilled water.
2 liters per minute

+nnnnn-nnnnn+nnnnn-

Clearly simply throwing 3 times the steel at an inefficient reactor isn't going to triple the output. I'll be blasting and prepping the plates as soon as I can, hoping for better results.

havens

[myoldyourgold]

Heavens, the only thing throwing more metal does is allow you to run more amps. By doing that you make more gas. 10 amps makes x gas 20 amp make 2x gas. It is a direct relation in an efficient reactor. Of course if it is not efficient it just makes heat. You still have to stay under the .5 amps per active square inch on one side of one plate so are restricted. With 3 stacks you divide the amps by 3 so you can run 3 times the amps compared to a single stack. That does not necessarily make 3 times the gas though. Your results are about 4.46 mmw where 100% Faraday is 5.88 MMW. That really is not to bad if it is not laden with moisture.

[Havens78]

Had time to dismantle the 773 over the weekend, actual build was +nnnn-nnnnn+nnnnn- The last stack with only 4 neutrals was so loose that the plates were laying on each other, this will be remedied before the unit gets cleaned/prepped/reconstructed. As soon as i order another square of stainless, i'll update with improvement after it is reconstructed.

[Havens78]

Rather than start a new thread I just found my old one for posting results.

Reinstalled the 773 unit, and at 43 amps/13.5 volts (1 lb NaOH per gallon) i'm getting a whole 2 LPM after its warm. Ugh, the next step will be to take the +nnnnn-nnnnn+nnnnn- and make it into two separate single stack units. Hopefully i can reduce the size of the gasket down so i can run an extra neutral plate in each of these units. And it will be a good chance to see the differences in outlets/inlets on the sides and outlets/inlets on the end/top of the endplates. The current setup has the inlet inline with all of the openings on the bottom, the new stacks' endplates will be plumbed differently.

It will be after the beginning of May before i can get this started, but that's my next step.

Havens

[Havens78]

This weekend i'll be creating 3 new stacks from these 2 units (yes one of them is leaking horribly). One of the single stacks will get brand new end plates that will incorporate the magnets you see in the attached picture. 2 or 3 on each endplate, depending on if i can separate the two that are currently stuck together.

Plan is to run a regular stack and the magnet stack together from the same power source with the same mixed solution and test the differences. I'll update later this weekend.


havens

[Havens78]

Endplates are now finished with spaces for outlets and magnets, not shown is the hole i drilled for the inlet. I used a router to make a space at the top of the endplate that is the exact shape and size of the hole on the plates in an effort to create the easiest path for the hydrogen. Currently i'm trying to keep the magnets in place with weldon, as the unit is put together the magnets will oppose each other and will stay in place in the endplates. Simply using the weldon as a possible barrier to the solution, we'll see how it holds up.


Just a note to anyone wanting to try magnets, keep your endplates away from each other if the magnets are inside them. I've never seen magnets jump from one endplate to the other until today, these things are crazy.

Also made new gaskets out of 45 mil EPDM to replace the 3/32 gaskets that came with the kit. The original setup at 3/32 gaskets has room for 5 neutrals how it is built, with 45 mil EPDM I have room for 8 neutrals before i can securely bolt it back together. I might try them both if i have time, I don't want to go back with the original gaskets if I can get away with it. But 8 neutrals would have me sitting at 1.45 volts per gap at 13.4 volts total, even with magnets i don't know if that will be enough. Does anyone have experience with this?

[myoldyourgold]

I think you will be unhappy with the results with 8 neutrals at 13.8 volts. The best results is still at 2 to 2.3 volts per gap which sacrifices a little efficiency but you get the volume out of the available surface area in a bipolar reactor. Even though the efficiency might go up slightly the volume will go down with 8 neutrals. (Liters per watt goes up but the LPM max is limited) I know that dose not make sense to most but it will only work if you are making very good gas thus requiring less LPM to get the job done.

[Havens78]

Thanks Carter, I did give it another try and was able to change it to 6 neutrals after being creative with my gaskets.

Rebuilt the unit after a magnetic wrap re-alignment (every little bit helps right?) of the plates and a good acetone and water rinsing. Tonight is the leak test before i get started with some power tests in the morning.

Setup is now:

+M- +NNNNNN- -M+

Magnets are set away from the power plates by 3/32 of an inch.

[whear]

What's the purpose of the magnets ?

[Havens78]

What's the purpose of the magnets ?

There has been research that shows a Magnetic Field will help in the process of electrolysis, how strong that field needs to be is what i'm trying to look at. If we can produce a better (more ortho than para hydrogen) quality gas and at a faster rate then we can start making smaller reactors to do the job. I know that Larry has been testing large magnets for this purpose, but I was curious if a smaller field would be sufficient enough to produce a gain in the process.

[Havens78]

I'm a little confused after re-installing the rebuilt unit in my car. Everything is the same except for the unit itself, so the change has to be in the unit.

previous setup: -NNNNN+ 3/32" thick gaskets 20% NaOH solution.
13.2 to 13.4 volts = 27 amps when warm. 1.6 lpm

New setup: Magnet -NNNNNN+ Magnet 1/16" thick gaskets 20% NaOH solution.
13.5 to 13.7 volts = 16 amps when warm.

I haven't done a lpm test with the unit in the car as of yet, but with the ruskin filter installed i'm seeing even better mpg numbers than with the unit as designed before. But what puzzles me is why i can't push the unit any harder than 16 amps now, even after over an hour of hwy driving tonight I was only able to raise the amps from 13 to 14.

ideas?

[Quebecker]

I'm a little confused after re-installing the rebuilt unit in my car. Everything is the same except for the unit itself, so the change has to be in the unit.

previous setup: -NNNNN+ 3/32" thick gaskets 20% NaOH solution.
13.2 to 13.4 volts = 27 amps when warm. 1.6 lpm

New setup: Magnet -NNNNNN+ Magnet 1/16" thick gaskets 20% NaOH solution.
13.5 to 13.7 volts = 16 amps when warm.

I haven't done a lpm test with the unit in the car as of yet, but with the ruskin filter installed i'm seeing even better mpg numbers than with the unit as designed before. But what puzzles me is why i can't push the unit any harder than 16 amps now, even after over an hour of hwy driving tonight I was only able to raise the amps from 13 to 14.

ideas?

I suspect that your gaskets are too thin. The gas shortage of room to move freely.

[aceras624]

I think you will be unhappy with the results with 8 neutrals at 13.8 volts. The best results is still at 2 to 2.3 volts per gap which sacrifices a little efficiency but you get the volume out of the available surface area in a bipolar reactor. Even though the efficiency might go up slightly the volume will go down with 8 neutrals. (Liters per watt goes up but the LPM max is limited) I know that dose not make sense to most but it will only work if you are making very good gas thus requiring less LPM to get the job done.

you say that 2-2.3 volts sacrifices effciency but gains volume? how is this possible? are you saying if he has a larger reactor surface area (RSA <--hope this catches on ;)) then to go with the extra plates to increase the efficiency?

[Madsceintist]

How has this setup been working for you verses a cell without the magnets? It would seem that it would be less efficient to have the magnets in the reactor than out due to the hydrogen molecules not being pulled from the oxygen yet. Now I can attest to the fact that it is beneficial to have the magnetic field outside as it aligns the molecules once they've been separated by the electrolysis.

Have you actually tested this both ways?

[Havens78]

How has this setup been working for you verses a cell without the magnets? It would seem that it would be less efficient to have the magnets in the reactor than out due to the hydrogen molecules not being pulled from the oxygen yet. Now I can attest to the fact that it is beneficial to have the magnetic field outside as it aligns the molecules once they've been separated by the electrolysis.

Have you actually tested this both ways?

I'm still running tests with the system with magnets within the cell, it has only been in the vehicle around 6 days now. i'm hoping to have some good numbers by the end of the month, so far i'm seeing great numbers on the hwy but worse mileage than before in the city.

As far as testing the cell both ways, yes I have all of the data that i have captured since i purchased this unit in the spring of 2011. After replacing a throttle body and an intake manifold gasket due to the original system not filtering out enough of the gas I found this forum.

Original Numbers built as purchased:
4 tablespoons of NaOH to a gallon of water
35-40 amps
140 average electrolyte temperature
13.4 volts at cell
2 lpm, most of this had to be steam.
25-30% mpg gain

Revised cell after conditioning (media blast/weld-on/passivate):
32 tablespoons of NaOH to a gallon of water
26-27 amps
95 average electrolyte temperature (secondary reservoir)
13.6 volts at cell
1.4-1.6 lpm
30-50% mpg gain (when volo chip wants to work)


New magnet cell: (numbers after one week) neutral plate added / magnets added
32 tablespoons of NaOH to a gallon of water
13-17 amps
95 average electrolyte temperature
13.4-13.7 volts at cell
.5 to .8 lpm
(need more testing before i can post any gains or losses here)

[reggaerican]

I did a read about a guy who tries to incorperate magnets into his dry cell and had the same problem, he could not push more amps to the unit due to overheating... why is this???
I wish Mr Danials was still around to answer that one for us maybe there is something to that honeycomb design after all?

good luck with the bugs Im gonna follow along to learn with you if you dont mind...

[Havens78]

I did a read about a guy who tries to incorperate magnets into his dry cell and had the same problem, he could not push more amps to the unit due to overheating... why is this???


The reactor isn't overheating, i'm running it with 20% NaOH Solution (1 pound of NaOH per gallon of distilled). Thermal runaway isn't a problem at all after i conditioned my plates correctly, i just can't get more out of this thing without going over the 20% solution and i haven't read anything good about going over 20%.

The only thing I can think of is that with the extra neutral plate and 1/32" smaller gasket i've made the unit more efficient and reached the limit of what i can get out of it.

[myoldyourgold]

Lack of heat will be the problem. It might help to heat up the electrolyte a little more when using magnets. If I remember Larry had this problem of not being able to pull enough amps and temperature was low. I would experiment with increasing the temperature of the electrolyte. Use heat from the radiator if in a car. On the bench any controlled source will work.

[Havens78]

Lack of heat will be the problem. It might help to heat up the electrolyte a little more when using magnets. If I remember Larry had this problem of not being able to pull enough amps and temperature was low. I would experiment with increasing the temperature of the electrolyte. Use heat from the radiator if in a car. On the bench any controlled source will work.

Hmm, i could always move the reservoir back into the engine compartment and see how much heat i can get. I like the idea of plumbing heat from the radiator, but seeing that its the wife's car i'll try moving the reservoir first. Thanks Myold

[reggaerican]

sorry bout that, i must have read you wrong. or just had that other build on my mind..
great design btw hope you get the bugs out. I do have a questin for you by incorperating magnets like you did is that supposed to produce the same results as the ruskin filter?

[Havens78]

Lack of heat will be the problem. It might help to heat up the electrolyte a little more when using magnets. If I remember Larry had this problem of not being able to pull enough amps and temperature was low. I would experiment with increasing the temperature of the electrolyte. Use heat from the radiator if in a car. On the bench any controlled source will work.

The temperature is the key with magnets involved inside the reactor construction. Amps rose by 4 today to 21 when it was 107 degrees today, water temp was around 110.