Hydrogen Embrittlement!!!

[ranger2.3]

A friend of mine just sent me some bad news about hydrogen. Look up on wiki HYDROGEN EMBRITTLEMENT. Tell me what ya'll think.

[mario brito]

from wiki :

"The mechanism begins with lone hydrogen atoms diffusing through the metal. At high temperatures, the elevated solubility of hydrogen allows hydrogen to diffuse into the metal (or the hydrogen can diffuse in at a low temperature, assisted by a concentration gradient). When these hydrogen atoms re-combine in minuscule voids of the metal matrix to form hydrogen molecules, they create pressure from inside the cavity they are in. This pressure can increase to levels where the metal has reduced ductility and tensile strength, up to the point where it cracks open ("Hydrogen Induced Cracking", or HIC)."

from what understood, the worse that can happen is the need to substitute an eventual cracked plate. i see no major problem here :)

thanks

[stickittoopec]

I bought the 7 hour fuel cell class that Roy McAlister (President of the American Hydrogen Association) did a while back, and in the video he talked about that. A lot of this information came from the natural gas industry who had a problem with it. Now one of the theory's is there was moisture in the metal during the welding process of the pipe. You are suppose to heat the pipe to a specified temperature to drive out moisture and maybe that didn't happen like it should (companies taking shortcuts to meet a deadline?? Say it ain't so.) McAlister said he has steel hydrogen cylinders still in service from the year 1916, thats 92 years. These cylinders have to go through testing like all gas cylinders and have passed these test all these years. He also talked about this in his book “The Solar Hydrogen Civilization” page 68. I think if hydrogen embrittlement was a problem these tanks would not have lasted that long. Plus he has several cars and trucks that run on straight hydrogen without any problems. I doubt our little electrolyzers will be a problem.

[webeopelas]

I think it is a larger problem when the hydrogen is under high pressures. This drives the hydrogen into the metal at a higher rate.

I would think given the low pressures we are dealing with and he fact that the hydrogen would only be in contact with the cylinder for a short period of time, would minimize any damage, and let the other parts of the engine break due to age before any issues from hydrogen would arise.

[Boltazar]

Stickittoopec Was the 7 hr video worth the money

[dennis13030]

... At high temperatures, the elevated solubility of hydrogen allows hydrogen to diffuse into the metal (or the hydrogen can diffuse in at a low temperature, assisted by a concentration gradient)...

I read this too. The only counter measures I can think of to reduce this effect are;
1. Set the operating point of the electrolyzer so that it runs cooler. This make sense to me because electrolyzers are more efficient at a lower operating point(1.23V to 2.0V per cell).
2. Reducing the concentration gradient of hydrogen inside the electrolyzer. The only ways I can see this happening is by using a) an electrolyte chemical that reduces the surface tension of water, b) increasing the plate spacing.
3. Increase the plate thickness so that the plates will last longer before they start cracking.
4. Reduce all mechanical stresses on the plates. As long as the plates stay put where they are, cracking would not matter so much.

[webeopelas]

I read this too. The only counter measures I can think of to reduce this effect are;
1. Set the operating point of the electrolyzer so that it runs cooler. This make sense to me because electrolyzers are more efficient at a lower operating point(1.23V to 2.0V per cell).
2. Reducing the concentration gradient of hydrogen inside the electrolyzer. The only ways I can see this happening is by using a) an electrolyte chemical that reduces the surface tension of water, b) increasing the plate spacing.
3. Increase the plate thickness so that the plates will last longer before they start cracking.
4. Reduce all mechanical stresses on the plates. As long as the plates stay put where they are, cracking would not matter so much.


I wasn't concerned about the electolyzer from this, the plates should be relatively easy to replace and there are really no stresses on them. The concern would be the engine cylinders and block getting brittle from the HHO being injected.

Need a much longer time period of people running these to determine if it is a concern.

[Omega]

I associate hydrogen embrittlement with high temperatures, like those encountered when welding. The concentrations are high where this occurs because hydrogen is present in the material to be welded or in the welding rods used.

I don't think it's an issue with electrolyzers as the temperatures are comparatively low .

Since the concentration is extremely low in the engine, I'd say that wouldn't be a problem either.

I feel better now... :D

[dennis13030]

... The concern would be the engine cylinders and block getting brittle from the HHO being injected...

I am concerned about this too. It would be nice to run a comparative test on two identical new vehicles. One using HHO and the other without. Every year do a major inspection of the head, cylinders, pistons, intake and exhaust.

[stickittoopec]

Stickittoopec Was the 7 hr video worth the money
I think the book (The Philosopher Mechanic) that supplements the video is better. The co-producer (Steven Harris)who is off camera interrupts a little too much. It is a low-budget production. You spend a few minutes looking at someone's back and there's people walking through the video. But the information that Roy puts out is good -- when they can stay on subject. I think if it could have been better planned, and if they would have let Roy do his thing, it would have been a better product. And to stay on subject, I would have never heard of hydrogen embrittlement if it wasn't for the video. Now that I've seen the video and heard Roy's take on it, I don't think hydrogen embrittlement is a problem at all. He has several cars and trucks that run on pure hydrogen. He has had no problems with hydrogen embrittlement.

[ranger2.3]

from wiki :

"The mechanism begins with lone hydrogen atoms diffusing through the metal. At high temperatures, the elevated solubility of hydrogen allows hydrogen to diffuse into the metal (or the hydrogen can diffuse in at a low temperature, assisted by a concentration gradient). When these hydrogen atoms re-combine in minuscule voids of the metal matrix to form hydrogen molecules, they create pressure from inside the cavity they are in. This pressure can increase to levels where the metal has reduced ductility and tensile strength, up to the point where it cracks open ("Hydrogen Induced Cracking", or HIC)."

from what understood, the worse that can happen is the need to substitute an eventual cracked plate. i see no major problem here :)

thanks

mario brito, I am talking about the HHO in the engine block.

[timetowinarace]

1. What is the concern? Hydrogen get's burned very quickly in the cylinders. It doesn't sit there and seep into the metal.

2. Class begins. Monotomic hydrogen is 'lone' hydrogen. It does not like to be alone. It returned(combines) very quickly into diatomic hydrogen wich is it's natural state. That is why monotomic hydrogen cannot be stored. It is also why monotomic hydrogen produces more energy by volume than diatomic. The recombining of the atoms releases energy. Unless any of you are using resonance in your units, you are not producing much if any monotomic hydrogen. Only diatomic hydrogen wich will not seep into the metal or if it does, will not combine with other diatomic hydrogen to produce pressure.

3. Even if some monotomic hydrogen is left over in the combustion chamber, it is likely to recombine there to make diatomic hydrogen. Any amount seeping into the metal would be miniscule. Therefore, it would take considerable time for it to be 'found' by other monotomic hydrogen and join. I'm going to assume that wear and tear from pistons and rings will do much much more damage over the life of the engine.

I hope that the scare is over.

[Boltazar]

Unless any of you are using resonance in your units, you are not producing much if any monotomic hydrogen.

What do you mean by "resonance"

Thanks

[timetowinarace]

Unless any of you are using resonance in your units, you are not producing much if any monotomic hydrogen.

What do you mean by "resonance"

Thanks

From wiki:

In physics, resonance is the tendency of a system to oscillate at maximum amplitude at certain frequencies, known as the system's resonance frequencies (or resonant frequencies). At these frequencies, even small periodic driving forces can produce large amplitude vibrations, because the system stores vibrational energy. When damping is small, the resonance frequency is approximately equal to the natural frequency of the system, which is the frequency of free vibrations. Resonant phenomena occur with all type of vibrations or waves: there is mechanical resonance, acoustic resonance, electromagnetic resonance, and resonance of quantum wave functions. Resonant systems can be used to generate vibrations of a specific frequency, or pick out specific frequencies from a complex vibration containing many frequencies.

My comments:

It is proven that introducing resonance into the electroysis proccess further splits hydrogen (H2) into it's monotomic state (H).

There are several ways to do this. The simplest but less effective way is through DC pulses. Audio waves can be used. Microwaves. The list goes on.

Another advantage to introducing resonants (the original reason for doing it) is to 'shake' the bubbles from the plates. In some cases it is thought that during resonance the bubbles form between the plates and not on them. This keeps the full plate area clear to continue electrolysis thus improving production.

[liberybell]

From wiki:

In physics, resonance is the tendency of a system to oscillate at maximum amplitude at certain frequencies, known as the system's resonance frequencies (or resonant frequencies). At these frequencies, even small periodic driving forces can produce large amplitude vibrations, because the system stores vibrational energy. When damping is small, the resonance frequency is approximately equal to the natural frequency of the system, which is the frequency of free vibrations. Resonant phenomena occur with all type of vibrations or waves: there is mechanical resonance, acoustic resonance, electromagnetic resonance, and resonance of quantum wave functions. Resonant systems can be used to generate vibrations of a specific frequency, or pick out specific frequencies from a complex vibration containing many frequencies.

My comments:

It is proven that introducing resonance into the electroysis proccess further splits hydrogen (H2) into it's monotomic state (H).

There are several ways to do this. The simplest but less effective way is through DC pulses. Audio waves can be used. Microwaves. The list goes on.

Another advantage to introducing resonants (the original reason for doing it) is to 'shake' the bubbles from the plates. In some cases it is thought that during resonance the bubbles form between the plates and not on them. This keeps the full plate area clear to continue electrolysis thus improving production.

Great info.
Question:
Do the lame person like me has any easy way to pull the guts of a Microwaves and make useful for this purpose?
I am willing to test anything but I need some knowledge first ;-)
Thanks!

[timetowinarace]

Great info.
Question:
Do the lame person like me has any easy way to pull the guts of a Microwaves and make useful for this purpose?
I am willing to test anything but I need some knowledge first ;-)
Thanks!

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapt10.html

Learn all you can here. The electronics can seem daunting for those with little electronic experience. I have an idea to make it more simple, using cheap, common, allready made components but will not be able to begin building and testing till this winter.

[ranger2.3]

Unless any of you are using resonance in your units, you are not producing much if any monotomic hydrogen.

What do you mean by "resonance"

Thanks

Look on wiki - Nikola Tesla- and then look through his inventions