please give me some idea! [Archive]

jonamse

08-30-2011, 12:01 AM

Hi All !

I just installed HHO Dry cell kit into my 09 Kia Rondo on 19th - gone through:
1) water leaking
2) engine check light came on - and could not start the car.
3) amp meter came with the kit does not work -so end up buying clamp on ammeter from Canadian Tire. (extra $60 ...:(

it has been interesting week...my wife was not happy, since she was the one who faced major problems listed above.

I have a millage chip, and all the set up was done right with my friend who is a electric engineer. - HHO gas production seems to be great - since I see bubbles.

my fuel economy is not going better but worse. Only half a tank I am going 200 km - which I could do nearly 300 km in June.
I see a lot of water coming out from the back pipe - and seems to me that is the sign of efficiency - but not yet showing on the dash board.

So, I am guessing my injection point may be the issue.

My Rondo only comes with Throttle body / MAF sensor combo unit.
So, I cannot use the method for modern car - "after MAF but before Throttle body." I do not wish to drill a hole in a Intake Manifold(need to lift the engine to do it.) so end up with making a injection point on the air filter box after the filter. (just to wish HHO gas and Air mix more naturally)
Some claims that I need to use K&N type filter to gain max performance for HHO / fuel chip- or use hose from the injection point get closer to the throttle to prevent HHO build up in the intake box or leaking from the side.

I tried to look into the tread but there are so many - I am cruelness for searching specific words and topics.

Would you please so kindly answer my concern and enlighten me for the HHO world.

Note: my kit - bought from HHO KITS DIRECT Tiny Titan 771 using NaOH as electrolyte.
- currently running 21amp ± 0.7 - hoping to have 2 LPM production.

service that I need to look into - change engine air filter / coolant / engine oil in 2 month.

MtnGoatXJ

08-30-2011, 12:27 AM

Good news is that your system appears to be working correctly if the MPG has dropped. The O2 sensor is "seeing" a lean condition and compensating by adding extra fuel. Have your elec eng friend compensate for the extra oxygen and lean it out a tad.

That's the quick answer. I'm a noob too, so one of the guru's will chime in soon with a more refined reply.

:D

Quebecker

08-30-2011, 08:32 AM

Hi

I'm going to start to try to help you ....

First, you should contact Robert from "HHODirect" and ask them to assist you...

Your engine is a 2.4l (4 cylinder) or 2.7l (6 cylinder), then at 2 LPM, you inject too much of HHO gas. You should inject up to 1.3 LPM. I recommend you start with about 1.1 LPM.

Then, make sure that the product gas is not composed of vapor. Make the test with ice cube...

Look at this HHO Debug checklist
http://www.fuelsaver-mpg.com/hho-system-debugging

After completing this checklist, if you still have no improvement, asks Robert to change the chips mileage for EFIE

I hope this will help you

BioFarmer93

08-30-2011, 09:18 AM

Jonamse,
I went to their web site and found out as much as I could about your reactor (which was very little once the hype was eliminated) They say it has two electrodes and that it is a hybrid wet/dry cell. I have a feeling that you are making more steam than anything else, but without measurements and observation from you it is difficult to say. Unfortunately these things are not "plug and play", and require tuning and tweaking.

myoldyourgold

08-30-2011, 11:32 AM

It is interesting that with a 2 or 3 cell set up he is getting some gain. At least that is what it looks like to me. Looks like large gap 3 plate or 4 plate setup. What would the results be with a truly efficient reactor. I suspect that the really high gain testimonials are either honest mistakes or just BS. Just the same it does show that higher voltage is working to some extent in this setup. I would like to see some real data on this reactor and not the hype. I am sure it will come down to about 20 or more amps per liter but would be interesting to get the real facts. He does use a vacuum brake in the kit which is at least one good thing.

jonamse

08-31-2011, 03:12 AM

Thanks guys for your insight.

As I have touched the line coming out from the generator - it was like a room temperature. I did not feel any burning sensation - so cell should not creating heat to produce steam. (21C under the shade today)
Although, the radiator behind the water tank may heats up the water and may create some steam. - but as I see the water level - should not be the serious issue but I must do the ice cube test and see...

So, too much of HHO gas can cause poor MPG! - I thought that I need at least 3 LPM for 2.4 L engine. Up to 1.3 sounds so little - but it makes more sense. Smaller amp used / with just enough HHO / good spark and better FE.

In the Video, Tiny Titan 771 produce 3LPM at 25 AMP ( I now not so sure about the result) : is that mean I should aim at about 15 AMP ± 1 or 2?
for now, I will keep 20 AMP until the time I need to change water (which is recommended by the maker)

I have read 10% concentration should be ideal - do we have formula for it?

My wife told me that the car was running fine today so I want to believe that things are going fine....and my choice of generator too.

I've never thought that HHO being this deep!

BioFarmer93

08-31-2011, 11:33 AM

Jonamse,
I am going to start from your first post and try to answer as much as I can..

My fuel economy is not going better but worse. Only half a tank I am going 200 km - which I could do nearly 300 km in June.
This is because an ’09 Kia Rondo has four O2 sensors and your engine management system (computer) is seeing the HHO as a lean condition and richening up your mixture.

I see a lot of water coming out from the back pipe - and seems to me that is the sign of efficiency - but not yet showing on the dash board.
This is not efficiency, this is steam condensing in your exhaust system.

Some claims that I need to use K&N type filter to gain max performance for HHO / fuel chip- or use hose from the injection point get closer to the throttle to prevent HHO build up in the intake box or leaking from the side.
Your injection point is fine where it is at. A larger freer flowing air filter is always a good thing. HHO will not “build up” in the intake box as long as your engine is at least idling.

So, too much of HHO gas can cause poor MPG! - I thought that I need at least 3 LPM for 2.4 L engine. Up to 1.3 sounds so little - but it makes more sense. Smaller amp used / with just enough HHO / good spark and better FE.
No, the engine’s computer is causing the poor MPG, at 21 amps you are only making (at best) 1.4 lpm, the rest is steam. As for “how much HHO is proper” for an engine, let us say only that 0.5lpm per liter of displacement is an agreed upon “rule of thumb”. I am aware of no science that corroborates this amount.

For homework, you should research quad EFIE’s and O2 sensor shields and/or spacers, possibly even an AFR. One of our members, Richard (Ultra Efficient) can give you excellent advice on AFR’s and how to tune with them to help your car make the best use of HHO.

myoldyourgold

08-31-2011, 11:45 AM

If you do not have an endometer or a bottle in a bucket to measure your gas output I suggest that the you use 17 amps per liter for your calculations. Anything with more gas than that per amp has moisture in it or is not temperature/Barometric pressure compensated. Use a hydrometer and a thermometer to measure your electrolyte. The charts have been posted on the forum many times, but here they are again:

http://www.handymath.com/cgi-bin/spcfgrvkoh.cgi?submit=Entry

http://www.handymath.com/cgi-bin/naohtble3.cgi?submit=Entry

Battery hydrometers are cheap. Quebecker is right so start at just over 1 LPM.

jonamse

09-01-2011, 12:53 AM

Thanks for answering my question!

Today - Again, car could not start!!
I came home and found out that it was not the battery problem.
Looks like it was something to do with fuel pump.
I did take the on/off switch line from Fuel Pump Relay's 87 pin.
I push the relay harder in - pull the ECM fuse - waited - restarted the car -
now it is working as it was used to.

Rondo is famous for the Fuel Pump issue - so it might be that.

- for controlling O2 sensor - I have Volo's fuel chip tuned by same people who made the generator. each chip should be set for each details of the car.
(2009 Kia Rondo 2.4 L engine etc) so, hoping that this millage chip can do its job.

I did the ice cube test - no dew built up in the hose - I cannot say that the my hybrid generator produce pure HHO or with very little steam - but result was quite satisfying - that I am not waisting AMP to steam.

I did not have much time today - so I tried to count numbers of bubble per 10 seconds then times 6.

So tube's radius 0.625 cm - ball volume = 1.022 - 180 bubbles apx
In theory, at 20 AMP, production is 1.8LPM. (I know I am very wrong !!)
So at 15AMP I can do 1.3 ish ... I will see....

jonamse

09-03-2011, 11:58 PM

Hi All

I am glad to report to you that I have reduced the amp down to 15-16 A range.
I cannot see any difference in the bubbler, but impression of drive have changed. There were some sense of faster acceleration. Feels good indeed.

I have checked the Bon Volk's site again, and noticed that the TT 771 is claimed to produce 3LPM at 20 AMP - so just maybe event at 15 AMP it might be over or just below 2LPM. (run out of distilled water)
I will try to aim 10 AMP and see the fuel meter.

What fun - I must say!

jonamse

09-05-2011, 12:47 AM

oh well - I had another shut down out at the mall.
All my family was in the car - engine did not start !!

Tow the car to the closest dealer (used Kia Road side assistance) - no service man attended at the shop (since it is Sunday) - sales manager saw my HHO system and made the certain impression that it will void the warranty - blah blah...

Terns out: it was immobilize r's problem. So Anti-Theaft was at work.
(some kind sakes man gave me the remake : sometimes it happens event at the dealership.

So, I turn on the alarm by clicking twice - open the car - it worked !!
Nothing to do with HHO - safely drove away...

I think it is just because I disconnected the battery while I was installing HHO kit - or becauseof Volo Fuel Chip? Not so sure.

Enough with my diary..here is the thing.

Do you guys experience the amp rising after making them drop by adding more water? I add more water / AMP was drop to 15-16, now is back to 20AMP (before / after battery and before the generator. Before amp meter which does not work: shows 10AMP - I've got no idea). I now need to go get some more distiled water and dilute it. - this time at 10AMP before/after the battery.

I read "less is more for HHO" so I should aim for that as my goal. Although, I envy for the 3LPM at 12AMP generator. so, it takes only 6AMP for what I want.

---

Well, I am grad that I now no need to take HHO kit from my car.
I hate doing business with dealer especially for "warranty" issues against basic oil change, and being on the specific millage.

I am going to report continually - as much as possible - and hope to leave some idea for Kia Rondo owners who shares same passion as I am.

myoldyourgold

09-05-2011, 11:53 AM

I read "less is more for HHO" so I should aim for that as my goal. Although, I envy for the 3LPM at 12AMP generator. so, it takes only 6AMP for what I want.

No such thing as 3 LPM of HHO at 12 amps. Anyone who says that is either ignorant, a bold face liar or both. Nothing to envy there.

jonamse

09-05-2011, 08:41 PM

No such thing as 3 LPM of HHO at 12 amps. Anyone who says that is either ignorant, a bold face liar or both. Nothing to envy there.

ha ha, I feel better already.
The generator that I have, tend to drew more amps after running for awhile.

So, 15AMP at the beginning - became 20AMP.

It now adjusted at 15AMP - but at one point it was down to 10AMP during first run.

Now: Volo fuel chip is causing problem.
Engine Check Light comes on when I re-installed it on today.
No idea why....

Havens78

09-06-2011, 06:44 PM

Jonamse,

I'm running the same exact generator you are on an 06 altima and at 18-20 amps i'm generating approximately 1.5 liters a minute. I have installed a few of these kits and the Volo chips do need to be reset every time you disconnect the battery or they will not function properly. You can email Bob and get the proper reset procedure and then if that doesn't work he'll replace it with an EFIE, always has offered that to me but i've only had a problem with one of the chips i have installed. Most problems i've had with the chips or units can be remedied with an email to the support line.

Other things i've installed and experimented with have come from the experienced members on this forum. I rebuilt the bubbler and added one; both with small fuel filters at the end of the inlet tubes. I also have an inline paper filter and now i can no longer see the gas going into the engine, when i installed this i almost though there was a problem until my meter showed me that i was still getting 1.5 liters a minute.

I hope this helps, the unit works well and even at 45 amps the unit doesn't get warm. I've tried to get the 2.5 to 3 liters a minute from my unit but you have to run 35 amps to get to 3 liters a minute. At least in my testing with my home-made gas meter (ZeroFossilFuels Copy).

jonamse

09-06-2011, 11:55 PM

Jonamse,

I'm running the same exact generator you are on an 06 altima and at 18-20 amps i'm generating approximately 1.5 liters a minute. .

Thanks Havens 78! So you must be the owner of 41.5%gain 2006 Nissan Altima. I am so glad to have you ! I feel more confidence, since you have same system as I do and size of engine about the same as mine( well Japanese against Korean engineering : efficiency might not be as good as yours...). - oh do you have photo of your bubbler ? may I see it ?

So 18-20AMP for 1.5 LPM eh? Mine now running 13-14AMP. Production has been slows down a bit indeed. I must add more NaOH bit by bit and find a sweet spot.

BTW. I re-installed Volo Chip and this time no ECL came on. Run for awhile - reset it again - working much better than before. I hate to admit, but it was my fault entirely !! :p

So, I now feel that I am at the starting point - looking at the bright future with HHO!

Thanks guys so much !

P.S, Next stop - PowerStart Performance Spark Plug ! and K&N.

Havens78

09-07-2011, 08:40 AM

I'll get a photo of my bubbler as soon as I can for you, though its only 2" white pvc with a 3/8" clear sight-tube on the side to check the water level. Its nothing fancy, but at the time i was simply looking for something that worked.

jonamse

09-08-2011, 02:52 AM

Can't wait to see the photo.

After reading of 18-20AMP = 1.5LPM for TT 771 - I added 3.5 teaspoon of NaOH hoping to see some jump from 13AMP to somewhat around 20AMP. I could see some NaOH still being undissolved at the bottom of the reservoir - I will stir it with hose sometimes tomorrow.

Now I remembered that on Sunday: my Rondo was moving without my foot on the gas pedal at about idling RPM which is about 630 r.p.m. : while I was looking for parking. Before HHO- it was about 1000. Today at WM, at 13AMP - it was about 750 rpm.

I still don't see any gain at this point. Is it because my car comes with MAF with Throttle body? or Airfilter too dirty?

Is it because of using 89 E5 instead of 87 E10 ?

I am hoping that Volo Chip is working correctly....

______________
Added

I was wondering just before going to bed - and needed to come back first thing in the morning - (got a go to work!)
which - the engine breather. my car Rondo has breather just right after the intake filter box and am wondering HHO may do something harmful inside.

Should I use tube from the injection point and pass the breather - or just leave it as is ...need guidance !!

Havens78

09-08-2011, 11:20 PM

I could see some NaOH still being undissolved at the bottom of the reservoir - I will stir it with hose sometimes tomorrow.

Should I use tube from the injection point and pass the breather - or just leave it as is ...need guidance !!

Are you not mixing the NaOH with Distilled water and letting it cool down before putting it into the reservoir? You want that stuff dissolved before placing it in the unit. And can you post a picture of where you have your gas injection? You need that as close to the throttle body as possible, do you still have the directions that came with your kit?

Here are the pics of the bubblers i quickly made, i was just trying to get something to work and test a theory at the time. Both inlet tubes have small copper fuel filters at the bottom of them to filter the gas and each bubbler mixture is a 80/20 mix of water/vinegar. When I have some time I need to rebuild them and mount a flash arrestor, at the moment the caps themselves are serving that purpose not being sealed with pvc glue.

jonamse

09-09-2011, 07:32 AM

Thanks for the photos.

Nice installation ! - I used ziptie all over - kind of messy..
I have a photo on Kia Rondo Forum which is
http://www.kia-forums.com/attachments/kia-carens-rondo-forum/9260d1314490067-acc-wiring-hho-kit-pict0610.jpg

and

http://www.kia-forums.com/attachments/kia-carens-rondo-forum/9259d1314490051-acc-wiring-hho-kit-pict0608.jpg

I now aware that the fun is kicking hot air into the engine room- just because I am blocking the air passage (some gap still left between radiator and reservoir) So, near future - with more hose and connection - I must move it to the left like yours and bubbler to the right - and maybe extra one too.

I bought 7/16 plastic tube and will going to extend the injection point.

I asked question to Volo regards to the chip - I was told to get max HHO input and calibrate it. - I thought the chip will do it automatically - but seems like it is not.

For the AMP / HHO - according to Bob, I should be running the system 25-35. Since my Rondo's alternator can handle up to 110A - I should be confident to run it above 20A

Havens78

09-09-2011, 08:40 AM

Yes i would definitely move your injection point, you want it as close to the engine side of your intake system as you can get. If you have your HHO traveling through your intake from the airbox it has to travel to far and you don't want this gas to build up in an air reservoir before entering the engine. I believe mine is about 2 inches away from my throttle body. You should see a great improvement in production once you move the injection point. (remember to seal up the previous hole)

I'm still a novice at this technology, but there is a lot of information on this forum site that is worth taking a look at if you want to increase efficiency. For a lot of my mounting I am using 'Simpson' framing ties that are used to frame wooden members in roof structures of homes. Great for 2" pvc and mounting reservoirs.

jonamse

09-10-2011, 08:26 PM

Thanks for all the help

I am now running HHO generator at 25AMP - injection point closer to the throttle body - chip reset. Ready to go...

My goodness- it took nearly 3 weeks to settle - hope to see better MPG.

Havens78

09-12-2011, 08:28 AM

Keep with it, some vehicles take a while to dial in with HHO. It took me 3 months to dial it in with trial and error, but I know what works now.

jonamse

09-13-2011, 12:20 AM

Quebecker

09-13-2011, 07:10 AM

Sadly I had to take my kit off from my car.
MAP sensor being screwed up and car seems to be shutting down more frequently. I am not sure when wrong - may be the steam vapor caused the problem? or simply HHO was not compatible with my car after all....:confused:

Your problem may be your chips volo!
You should maybe try an EFIE as it http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=7062

myoldyourgold

09-13-2011, 12:12 PM

Jonamse, I see you are selling your kit. Can you tell me how many plates this reactor has in it and how it is constructed. Pictures would be good. This also might solve your problem.

Bekker

09-13-2011, 01:39 PM

Hi there

Forgive me if im intruding on your post , but i also have the same kit as you , only difference is that i use the Quad EFIE .

So have have read all replyes hoping to find a sollution for my problems as well , but so far thats not the case .

So if u allow , i will post my configuration and experiences so far and maby we both are able to get it to work as we hope.

I drive a Mazda 626 1.8 liter ( i live in Denmark so our engines are not so big :D ) from 1996 .

I got the 771 kit installed and i bought the complete kit to be sure not to miss anything .

As also metioned i have the Quad EFIE although i only have 1 O2 sensor , but to be safe i bought that .

So i have run the kit since late May and to this date i have no gain in millage what so ever , i run the same kilometers as without the kit .

I wrote Bob after a month to get some help and he replied get the amps up to 30 and it will work . At that point i only run it with 20 amps .

So i added more Sodium Hydroxide and got it to 30 amps , and that made no difference .

Then i consulted my car mechanic and we tested the engine via the exhaust smoke . With or with out the kit on there we no changes in the values , so i tryed to bypas the EFIE so that it would be pure power with no adjustment from the EFIE , and the O2 went a little up , but not even 1 % .

And on top i got big problems with my idle and my throttle plate . My idle is dropping about 200 rpm ( i guess its because of the greater power usage to reach 30 amps ) and my throttle plate keeps getting stuck when the engine have been turned of for a while , so i have to press hard on the throttle pedal to get it to move again .

I have hat the throttle housing taken of to see if there was some dirt that could make it stick and on the backside ( facing engine ) there was white stuff building up . I removed it with polish and the car run ok the next few days and then it started to build up again . then i move the inlet from right before the throttleplate to the air intake , but its the same . Also i can see that the two outlets form the resovoir is a bit untight and theres is also building up white stuff , so i guess the gas is holding some left overs from the Sodium Hydroxide and that is making some corrosion in the throttle housing .

So can any good answers ? , unfortuantely Bob doesent seem to respond on my support questions adressing this problem .

Sorry if iwe misspelled something or use wrong techical terms , but as mentioned im from Denmark and im not that great in writing english

jonamse

09-13-2011, 03:39 PM

I am at work - so don't have any photo with me.

The unit has 4 plates (if I remember correctly) and water go through the unit and produce gas. water goes up with the gas back to the water tank and gas goes into the bubbler.

This is not at all hybrid wet / dry - it is wet cell with feeding lines. That's all.

I have notice that the water in the bubbler got whiter (while I was undoing the installation) so there must be some NaOH left over. I did not see any build up on the throttle plate luckily for my case..

Bekker: I would recommend you to add one more bubbler as Haven78 did - Filter the gas and filter it twice. and keep the AMP at 18-20AMP or even lower like 12AMP - it should be fine for you, considering the size of the engine.

My case, problem began with immobilizer - then to the sensor.
I too being suggested to bring AMP to 25-35A and trouble happens following day. I run the unit with 20AMP- ish - then to 27AMP then to 12AMP for a week - it was all good with low amperage - I raised amperage on Saturday to 25 + AMP - and problem on Sunday...ugh! So I should have run the unit with 12AMP or lower all along- with 2nd bubbler + no fuel chip like unit, but it is too late. My wife never going to let me put the unit back in the car...(now it is expected to leave and never see it again..)

In my case Volo did not work with my car's ECU and its sensor. For some other car it may do a good job on.
along with it Along with it - I had fuel gauge - which to monitor the throttle opening and MPG (instant) - but that too drain too much power from the battery (manufacture recommend to unplug it if car is not running more than 6 days)

So, my case may caused by combination of things. but on the other hand like Haven78 has great gain of MPG.

I must say - it is not you, but it's me....

Bekker

09-13-2011, 04:13 PM

Hi Jonamse

The second bubbler makes sence so i might ad that , but as i was running on 20 amps and lower i didnt have the problem so i guess i trye that to see if it works , as it is i hardly have any space left for a secondary bubbler .

I finish a full tank on monday and will see my millage , and then lower the amps and follow that lead .

The wifes are always the stop to a lot of fun :D

myoldyourgold

09-13-2011, 04:54 PM

I have been holding back because a lot of people are buying this reactor and some are saying that they are having some gains. No one I know though has. The problem is simple there are 3 versions of this reactor as I remember. Correct me if I am wrong. The small one has 2 plates the next 3 plates and the bigger one 4 plates. These plates are all unipolar plates and I am not sure how the 4 plate one is wired. Based on the other two I do not think the 4 plate one is wired in series. What you have is a wide gap unipolar setup that is running 12 to 14 volts through each pair. In my opinion very inefficient based on my limited knowledge but extensive testing. I just can not imagine any good gains with this system as a general rule. Cheap to make but you get what you pay for in this case. There will be some exceptions possibly that might have some gains. I think it might make a great coffee maker with some changes. LOL Sorry but that is how I see it.

Havens78

09-13-2011, 04:59 PM

Bekker my problem was exactly the same as yours. You might be able to do it with one bubbler and an inline paper fuel filter just before the injection point. I am running an 80/20 mix of water/vinegar and a small copper filter at the end of my bubbler tube. See the videos on "hho connection" youtube site, that is where i got the idea to try to break up the gas inside the bubbler with the filter. The vinegar helps to keep the filter clean.

I have nearly 1500 miles on my new bubbler set up and no residue in the throttle body or sticky butterfly, where i use to have to clean the t-body every 250 miles. I'm running my cell at 18-20 amps, which gets me 1.5 liters a minute by my calculations and meter.

As i'm starting to see others having trouble with these kits its got me thinking of taking some tips from everyone here and just building my own. Though i like the idea of the sealed cell idea that Bob Volk came up with, maybe there is a way to combine the two theories. (the wife is not going to like this idea, lol)

time to read some forum posts on building dry cells, heh.

Bekker

09-14-2011, 03:19 AM

Thanks for the replies

As this is my first HHO kit i dont have anything to compare it with , but i do think i have a lot of production , wheter its gas or/and steam it bubbles like cracy .

I will cut the amps back to 20 and monitor the outcome .

The trick using a fuel filter sounds like a good idea , but doesnt it clog up and hold back the HHO ?

Havens78

09-14-2011, 09:26 AM

The fuel filters inside the bubblers do clog if you run just water, i have had luck with a 80% water 20% vinegar. Just enough vinegar to keep the filter clean THese filters cost me $3.50 US, and the inline filter before injection i think i spent $3.95 US on. I haven't had any clogs yet, but at the price I paid for them i'll probably change the inline filter when i change my oil.

I've tested the unit before the filters and after the filters and it took 2 extra seconds to reach 1.5 liters a minute, the drop in production in 2 seconds didn't bother me if it was going to keep my throttle body clean.