Stopping Your Reactor at Idle

[myoldyourgold]

There are two basic advantages of doing this.

1. It helps preventing OBD controlled fuel injection vehicles stay on the lean side of their maps especially the long term adaptive learning portion.

2. It helps increase mileage by not using any HP at idle similar to some AC systems that come on and off at idle.

[kimbo]

could a disadvantage be that the most load is demanded when pulling away from idle ie accelerating, and the advantages of stopping the reactor are lost because when the engine demands most fuel the reactor is only just switching back on line?

[Quebecker]

Hi Carter,

I would like to know where is the level switch in the circuit diagram of an installation ?

Specifically, is the switch only stops the reactor or is stops the reactor, the EFIE and CCPWM ? If the level switch stops the EFIE, it therefore means that it takes (EFIE) 1 minute before working again when power returns ?

Thanks

[BioFarmer93]

A small disadvantage to be sure, but probably able to be mitigated by anticipating the light change and flipping the switch a second or two before getting on the throttle. Another way, would be to use a micro switch on a gas pedal cover, that would engage a split second before foot pressure descended on the pedal proper. The output from the microswitch would lead to a relay that controls the primary off/on electrical supply for the reactor or, for high amp draw systems to a secondary 200A continuous duty rated relay that had its activation ground leg controlled by the master on/off toggle.

[kimbo]

dammmmn..... you'r goood bio!

[myoldyourgold]

Quebecker has asked:


Hi Carter,

I would like to know where is the level switch in the circuit diagram of an installation ?

Specifically, is the switch only stops the reactor or is stops the reactor, the EFIE and CCPWM ? If the level switch stops the EFIE, it therefore means that it takes (EFIE) 1 minute before working again when power returns ?

Thanks

I initially started doing this in my testing to avoid using an EFIE or a CCPWM to try and meet the letter of the law for California but after realizing that making any change to the fuel system (adding HHO) needed to be approved, much less the adjustments to the smog system that was necessary, even though it improves things, has derailed these tests. These tests would take pages to explain and is not practical for the average person and does not avoid the CARB approval. I did learn a lot though, which has helped in the normal installation of HHO systems, this being one of them.

That is one of the reasons I am not that well versed with EFIE's or CCPWM and still would like to avoid any electronics if possible. (Not possible as a rule especially in winter) I have used both to test with in other States other than California. Some EFIE's have a start up delay before starting because of the starting rich condition function like an old choke. Because of this you should not wire the EFIE in the idle cut out circuit and leave it on all the time with the ignition. This might require a different setting than you currently have. I have only tested it where I set the EFIE with the switch already installed.

I see no problem in having the CCPWM in the circuit so it cuts off at idle.

So far on the vehicles this has been tested on it has been very helpful. More vehicles need to be tested to find out if there are some systems where there might be problems and what they are. This will require a lot of time but if all who use this contribute their results, it will go much faster.

[myoldyourgold]

could a disadvantage be that the most load is demanded when pulling away from idle ie accelerating, and the advantages of stopping the reactor are lost because when the engine demands most fuel the reactor is only just switching back on line?

Remember the reactor keeps producing a little HHO after shutting down so has little to no effect when just taking your foot of the accelerator and putting it back on. If you are idling for a long time this might be what I consider a small problem but if you are interested in getting very good mileage then this is less than a bump in the road. Since I am using either an Apexi or an AEM FIC where possible the settings are set to compensate for the lag so you do not feel this problem at all. Where I am not using these are in vehicles where the driver is not interested in acceleration at all but wants the mileage when doing in town stop and go driving. I have only two vehicles testing at the moment that have no electronics and just the idle cut out switch. (ICOS) Just to make it clear I do not sell anything at the moment and everything that is being tested is owned by me even though it is on other peoples vehicles. Time will tell how effective it is.

I do appreciate any suggestions. The real crunch is if the savings at idle is more than the possible lose during the lag while accelerating. I think if you have a heavy foot you will be eating up a lot of your savings anyway but good data will show exactly what is really happening.

[myoldyourgold]

I was not going to post this at first but have decided to. I am working on solving one of the biggest reasons for the lag time which is mainly related to the reactor reverting to a flooded state and having to clear the lines. I am testing some of my ideas right now and will post them over the next few weeks as they mature. I do have a working prototype but am not satisfied yet. You guys can be thinking about this too. If you look at an open bath reactor you will see that production starts almost instantly and is faster with duel connected plates which is another good reason to go to duel connections. So knowing this the problem is not electrical.

This is more involved than you might think at first because it wants to use more amps to clear the lines because the pressure has dropped the level of the electrolyte in the reactor by pushing out some electrolyte out of the input port before it overcomes gravity just like it does every time it starts up after sitting for a while. I have found so far that the savings are more than the loss in the initial on road tests. I just feel it could be much better.

[Quebecker]

Hi Carter,

2 potential solutions


Solution One

Why not use the brakes to stop the reactor. Just connect the brake light on a relay "normally open" and put a capacitor between the brake light and the relay. The capacitor will give a delay of about 5-6 seconds and avoid unnecessary stops when short braking.

Exemple:

brake, 5-4-3-2-1 -> the reactor stop


Solution two

Use RPM TACHOMETER with ajustable SHIFT LIGHT and a relay "normaly close" at the voltage of the RPM shift light . Set the shift light to the desired RPM. Use the shift light to open the relay and start the reactor.

Ref: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.m748&item=120745787947&viewitem=&_trkparms=clkid%3D2109087949090190346


What do you think?

[myoldyourgold]

Hi Carter,

2 potential solutions


Solution One

Why not use the brakes to stop the reactor. Just connect the brake light on a relay "normally open" and put a capacitor between the brake light and the relay. The capacitor will give a delay of about 5-6 seconds and avoid unnecessary stops when short braking.

Exemple:

brake, 5-4-3-2-1 -> the reactor stop


Solution two

Use RPM TACHOMETER with ajustable SHIFT LIGHT and a relay "normaly close" at the voltage of the RPM shift light . Set the shift light to the desired RPM. Use the shift light to open the relay and start the reactor.

Ref: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...87949090190346


What do you think?

I like number two if we can put all of that in a little box and plug it in and make it cheap. This is similar to a rpm controlled ccpwm or what ever you want to call it. (TRPWM)

[myoldyourgold]

There is a number of RPM switches available but most of them are programed to start around 2000 RPM and go up as I remember. If someone can find one that would work at lower rpm then please let me know.

[Quebecker]

There is a number of RPM switches available but most of them are programed to start around 2000 RPM and go up as I remember. If someone can find one that would work at lower rpm then please let me know.


like that ?

http://www.raptorperformance.com/Tech/RPM%20Activated%20Switch-Instructions.pdf RPM Range from 100 to 9900
http://www.raptorperformance.com/products/images/RPM%20Switch_5.jpg


http://www.holley.com/15982NOS.asp

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/accessories/Edelbrock-Adjustable-nitrous-RPM-activation-switch/_/N-268y?counter=2&itemIdentifier=709475_0_0_

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/GRANATELLI-GM-DWS100-Digital-Dual-RPM-Window-Switch-/140593734803?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item20bc0a2493

http://www.streetsideauto.com/p/msd-ignition-8956/?utm_source=CSE%2BShopping&utm_medium=Shopzilla&utm_campaign=Shopzilla

[myoldyourgold]

I like the raptor one the best. I would like something cheaper but if not I will just have stop eating for a number of days and cough up the $105 plus shipping. LOL It at least goes low enough and is made to do exactly what we need.

Thanks that is a good find.

[MtnGoatXJ]

This is more involved than you might think at first because it wants to use more amps to clear the lines because the pressure has dropped the level of the electrolyte in the reactor by pushing out some electrolyte out of the input port before it overcomes gravity just like it does every time it starts up after sitting for a while.

Check valves in the gas output lines?

[D.O.G]

I like the raptor one the best. I would like something cheaper but if not I will just have stop eating for a number of days and cough up the $105 plus shipping. LOL It at least goes low enough and is made to do exactly what we need.

Thanks that is a good find.

A possible cheaper alternative is an automotive frequency switch kit.
Jaycar have a kit (KC-5378) of the Silicon Chip circuit for $37.95.
There should be someone marketing similar kits in the U.S. (probably cheaper).

I use a different approach to this.
A vacuum switch on the ported vacuum line (zero at idle) switches my reactor on and off. I have it adjusted so that the reactor only turns on at cruise.:D

[myoldyourgold]

Check valves in the gas output lines? MtnGoatXJ,Every check valve I have tested leaks quite quickly if it has electrolyte passing through it. It is not a reliable solution.


I use a different approach to this.
A vacuum switch on the ported vacuum line (zero at idle) switches my reactor on and off. I have it adjusted so that the reactor only turns on at cruise.

Pete, what vacuum switch do you use? I tried one a year or two back and it failed after about a week of use. Obviously the wrong one and have not tried it again. Price and availability is always an issue too.

[D.O.G]

Pete, what vacuum switch do you use? I tried one a year or two back and it failed after about a week of use. Obviously the wrong one and have not tried it again. Price and availability is always an issue too.

The one I'm using now is a ZSE40F-01-22L from SMC.
This gives you a 3 digit LED display and two outputs (NPN 80mA) that can be set anywhere from 100kpa to -100kpa.
With only 80mA outputs, I switch small PCB relays, which then switch ordinary 30A automotive relays.
This isn't a cheap option, a quick search found two places (in the U.S.) quoting $120. I scrounged a couple of second hand ones for somewhat less than that.:rolleyes:
The beauty of this is that, with the unit mounted on the dashboard, I can change set points on the move.:)

A cheaper option would be a simple switch type. They're used in auto LPG conversions and lots of industrial applications. I've used a few brands (for work) over the years, most would be capable of switching ordinary automotive relays.
I've used one before as a "safety switch" for a reactor, no engine vacuum = no power to the reactor.

Please understand, I'm not saying that this is the "best" way of doing it, but on an old banger like my car, that has no MAF, MAP, TPS, CAS, etc, signals to use ... it works.

Pete.

[kimbo]

love the brake light solution....no electronics! why worry about the time delay? if yer braking yer foot is off the gas.

[myoldyourgold]

love the brake light solution....no electronics! why worry about the time delay? if yer braking yer foot is off the gas.

Not while you are just slowing down (coasting) before you put on the brakes. It is during this time that the O2 sensor senses an out of balance situation and will force the computer to make corrections over time.

[myoldyourgold]

This isn't a cheap option, a quick search found two places (in the U.S.) quoting $120. I scrounged a couple of second hand ones for somewhat less than that.

Thanks Pete, that confirms my research. Not a cheap solution but one all the same. Your adjustable one is excellent for testing with. On newer cars the throttle position sensor would be the best and easiest spot to get a signal from but none of the solutions I have found are cheaper than my $1.50 to $2.50 lever switch. My labor is cheap, with the mounting being not the easiest and getting it adjusted a challenge, it might work out to be the same except for my cheap labor. LOL

[Quebecker]

Carter,

Here's what I would do with my car, what do you think?

This is a solution to $ 10 - $ 15

Run the reactor only if the transmission is in "D" (with a relay). So, no reactor if the transmission is in "N", "P" or "R".

In addition, shut down the reactor if I press the brake for 5 seconds (using the bkake light, a capacitor and a relay)

Is what you will see a gain, a potential loss or any problems?


thank you

[myoldyourgold]

Here's what I would do with my car, what do you think?

This is a solution to $ 10 - $ 15

Run the reactor only if the transmission is in "D" (with a relay). So, no reactor if the transmission is in "N", "P" or "R".

In addition, shut down the reactor if I press the brake for 5 seconds (using the bkake light, a capacitor and a relay)

Is what you will see a gain, a potential loss or any problems?

Possibly could see some gain but the problem is when you just want to slow down without putting your foot on the brake is when the gas ratio in the exhaust is way out of whack and starts the cpu to go rich over time. The brake switch is the same as my switch just on the throttle working in reverse. Simple. The reactor only works when the throttle peddle is depressed a little and off when you take your foot off. In some cases you might be able to rig up a brake switch to work on the throttle linkage somewhere. You need to stop producing HHO every time the throttle is closed. When slowing down from 80 mph to 65 I do not use my brake just take my foot of the throttle especially if there is a cop behind me and I do not want my brake lights to go on. :D LOL To test this just switch your main switch off manually when you take your foot of the throttle. A pain but can be done for testing. I did.

[D.O.G]

Thanks Pete, that confirms my research. Not a cheap solution but one all the same. Your adjustable one is excellent for testing with. On newer cars the throttle position sensor would be the best and easiest spot to get a signal from but none of the solutions I have found are cheaper than my $1.50 to $2.50 lever switch. My labor is cheap, with the mounting being not the easiest and getting it adjusted a challenge, it might work out to be the same except for my cheap labor. LOL

Agreed.
Before I went to the vacuum sensor, I used a lever switch on the gear selector (easy to reach in my car). Any time the car wasn't in drive (coasting, waiting at lights, etc) the reactor turned off.

[Quebecker]

Hi Carter,

Yesterday, I installed a level switch and a relay in my system. The level switch work well.

Today I did a test of consumption and I lost about 5% gain. Does it could be because my EFIE module remains ON during the reactor is OFF ?

I have a Wideband EFIE module from fuelsaver-mpg and there is a delay of one minute at each power-on, so I can not afford to stop it.

Thanks
Remi

[myoldyourgold]

Yesterday, I installed a level switch and a relay in my system. The level switch work well.

Today I did a test of consumption and I lost about 5% gain. Does it could be because my EFIE module remains ON during the reactor is OFF ?

I have a Wideband EFIE module from fuelsaver-mpg and there is a delay of one minute at each power-on, so I can not afford to stop it.


Good test Remi, I think you might need to back your EFIE back down when truning off the reactor but I would not do that yet. The setting might be over compensating now. I am not sure. I have always tuned them together. I will say this that it shows more results on setups that are not using an EFIE but I have gotten larger gains with stoping the reactor at idle and using an EFIE too. I do not think thoes older EFIE's had a delay circuit but leaving it on should not make the mileage go down. Your reactor lag time might be to long caused by exit ports that are not large enough or there is to much back pressure in the system some where. Reset the computer and try again. Make sure it comes on as soon as you just touch the throttle. That adjustment is very critical. You might also need to up the amount of HHO produced. Keep us posted.