Need some expert advice with a Jeep 4.0

[MtnGoatXJ]

I've been experimenting with HHO units for about two years now with little success.

Vehicle 1992 Jeep Cherokee 4.0L I-6 automatic.

Anyone have time with this engine?

My DD service vehicle driven on the same route and roads 5 days a week.

Some background to help the help.
Engine was checked and rechecked to be in the best running order possible.
Recalibrated and/or replaced all sensors as required.
Confirmed fuel system to be calibrated and remanufactured Bosch injectors installed.
Replaced cat and muffler with Magnaflo performance replacements.
Installed a narrow band AFR gauge on its own O2 sensor.
Installed an EFIE and MAP adjuster.
Factory PCM no changes to program.

Ran the vehicle for a year to ensure base mileage was repeatable and all systems maximized.
15-17 MPG depending on ambient temperature and driving conditions.

Started with a home built wet cell that produced approx 1.5 l/min
Nothing to report.
Upgraded to a larger 2-3 l/min dry cell
Nothing to report.
Upgraded to a larger 5 l/min dry cell
Cell pulling 20amps with 6TBLS/gal, output fed to air intake just in front of the throttle body.
Finally started to see a change in AFR and adjusted the EFIE to keep indicated AFR to normal.

After 300 miles of driving I experienced ZERO change in economy and then blew up the 45amp PWM,
There is a little SOTP power change but not to justify the 1000 bucks I have invested in this project.

I'm feeling the pain of Thomas Edison, just not sure I can finance another 3500 tries. This aint a light blub.

[BioFarmer93]

I've been experimenting with HHO units for about two now with little success.

Vehicle 1992 Jeep Cherokee 4.0L I-6 automatic.

Anyone have time with this engine?

Two minutes? hours? days? weeks? months? years?
Proof reading is a laborious, tedious, albeit necessary task-:D
Anyway, I seem to recall that your particular vehicle is a bit of a challenge to see improvements on.. I'm sure someone else will chime in, or better yet you could do a search or two in the archives on "Jeep" or "Jeep 4.0" and variations there-of.

[myoldyourgold]

Bio, didn't Jim have a jeep of some kind and was getting results?

[BioFarmer93]

Bio, didn't Jim have a jeep of some kind and was getting results?

You know Carter, I believe he did, come to think of it... What ever happened to that boy anyway? He was a real up-and-comer, probably smarter than you and me and Lee put together...

[MtnGoatXJ]

As indicated by other Jeep owners I had to setup the dry cell in the cargo compartment.
There is just no room under the hood.

Unit container (Stanley 2 Compartment Tool Box)
Oops, sideways..... covers loose

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2192/3369/5479184024_large.jpg

Front View

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2192/3369/5479184022_large.jpg

Top compartment
Reservoir and power relays

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2192/3369/5479184021_large.jpg

Lower compartment
Cell and PC cooling/exhaust fan

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2192/3369/5479184020_large.jpg

[MtnGoatXJ]

Power monitoring top cover

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2192/3369/5479184018_large.jpg

Final test on the bench

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2192/3369/5479184023_large.jpg

[MtnGoatXJ]

Two minutes? hours? days? weeks? months? years?
Proof reading is a laborious, tedious, albeit necessary task-:D

Humor, I like. :D

I hope all can see that this is a well thought out and constructed project.
My efforts may be better spent on a different engine. But the Cherokee and 4WD work well as my service vehicle and its paid for. Not too many 4WDs that are as reliable and have an abundance of cheap parts. Plus it doubles as a tow vehicle for our weekends camping in the hills above Yosemite.

My objective is to make this work or move to another vehicle.

Cheers!

[H2OPWR]

My first HHO boosted vehicle wa 1988 Jeep Wrangler. It had a 4.0 6cyl and an automatic transmission. I had no luck with just HHO. Initially I got a good gain but it quickly went back to normal. I added an EFIE and MAP enhancer. I can't remember exact numbers but I got a nice gain that lasted over 1.5 years before I upgraded to my Nissan. I believe the gain was 20 to 25% in town. I was feeding it about 2LPM and running both enhancers. I also had to install it in the cargo area. Good Luck.

Larry

[BioFarmer93]

Humor aside my friend, at 20 amps I can promise you that your production was no where near 5lpm of HHO.. At the limit of the 45 amp PMW you toasted, you still weren't making 5 lpm of HHO. You may have been making 1.5lpm of HHO and 3.5lpm of steam, but not straight HHO, no way, no how. Your build looks very nice and clean and professional, but the reactor itself has not been described in configuration or square inches of wet working area. Please tell us what the size of the working area of the plates are and what the electrical configuration is, like +nnn-nnn+nnn- or -nnnn+nnnn-. For a 4 liter engine you need at least 2 lpm of real HHO, and I have a suspicion that you have never actually had 2 lpm of clean dry HHO..

[MtnGoatXJ]

6" 25 plate ||-NNN+NNN-NNN+NNN-NNN+NNN-|| 1070 Sq Inches

fleabay item # 330524382127

My first attempt to keep everything under the hood

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2192/3369/5479184004_large.jpg

[myoldyourgold]

Here is a good example of an excellent build and no results. Now in order to get results I think that most would agree it is not as simple as just building or buying a good kit and sticking in a vehicle.

There are numerous things to take into consideration in tuning the vehicle to accept the hydrogen, oxygen, and a number of other gases in the mix. I guess the place to start is at the beginning.

Bio, is right we need to know the details of your reactor, please include the input and exit port sizes and plate preparation. We also need to know the voltage at the reactor and the gauge of wire, and the approximate length of the wire from the source to the reactor. Does the ground go back to the battery or is it chassis grounded? The list goes on but I will start there. Once the basics are understood we can look at the rest. Most of this along with some additional information will establish how efficient the reactor is or could be. If you are using a considerable amount of HP to make the HHO then this will be contributing to no gains and should be addressed first. Burning out the 45 amp PWM is disturbing unless the unit was faulty.

The build again is excellent.

Bio what do you recommend for guys like me who are dyslexic and know that proof reading doesn't help much. Thank God for computers but they still can not help me the from and form's though, and hundreds more. LOL

[myoldyourgold]

I see I missed your last post. Well the reactor is a steam generator. This is the reason you burned out your PWM. Thermal run away. I suggest you take the reactor apart and change it to a 22 plate -nnnnnn+nnnnnn-nnnnnn+ or 19 plate -nnnnn+nnnnn-nnnnn+. Just do not expect 5 LPM at 20 or 30 amps. I have a problem with 1/16" gaskets but they should work. I would suggest 1/8 but that would be an expensive change because of all the holes etc. I would suggest you media blast the plates when you have them apart and passivate them. You then should be able to make enough gas at 25 to 30 amps to see some gain in MPG with the use of an EFIE. There could be some problems with the remote installation because of the distance from the battery if that is not done right though.

[Quebecker]

MntGoaxXJ,

I suggest to take seriously the recommendations (media blasted, insulate hole and passivation) of MyoldYourGold and other mentors. You can believe my recent experiences. Without them, I would still be trying to run my reactor

[MtnGoatXJ]

Any suggestions or experiences are read, reread and believe me when I say, graciously accepted. I read through a number of forums before embarking on this adventure to gain knowledge on others experiences and of course, mistakes. So far I haven't blown up...... :D

So the wiring has an arming switch that is gear select activated and a push to start switch. Once the key switch is turned off the system disarms. And of course there is the customary check valve.

I used some 4 gauge wire (+&-) from the battery back to the unit.
The unit itself is wired with 8 gauge where power is flowing.
The remainder of monitoring and switches is 16-22.
Water temp stays at 140-155.
Electrolyte 10 tbls/gallon
1 each 1/2" ID tubing to feed base of cell
2 each 1/2" ID tubing to feed gas up to the reservoir
1 1/4" tube to transport gas to engine
gas is introduced to the engine between the air cleaner and throttle body.
Electrolyte usage is roughly 1/2 pint per 400 miles.
Running voltage indicated at the unit 13.5-14.

Everything seemed to be running fine on the bench and I seasoned the plates for 48 hours (weekend) with distilled and later used some KOH to get the cell rolling. All the power equipment was running perfectly.

After installation the elec power system started to have problems. First one of the cooling fans quit. (replaced) Then the power solenoid quit. (replaced)
Then both fans quit (replaced) Then the PWM quit. I gave up.

So now its a matter of restacking the plates and figuring out just what the heck is happening electrically speaking. What I'm also hearing from you guys is that I might be better with a second battery nearer the unit. OK this I can do.

But what is on my priority list is a PWM that will do the job and not break the bank. Plus the fact of how much power is required to generate enough "H" to make an MPG difference. I was under the "impression" that I could stay under 25 amps and develop plenty of gas. But for the first time in all my readings, you guys referenced about "steam", which makes perfect sense.

I'm all ears gentlemen......

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2192/3369/5479184027_medium.jpg

[BioFarmer93]

Any suggestions or experiences are read, reread and believe me when I say, graciously accepted. I read through a number of forums before embarking on this adventure to gain knowledge on others experiences and of course, mistakes. So far I haven't blown up...... :D

So the wiring has an arming switch that is gear select activated and a push to start switch. Once the key switch is turned off the system disarms. And of course there is the customary check valve.

I used some 4 gauge wire (+&-) from the battery back to the unit.
The unit itself is wired with 8 gauge where power is flowing.
The remainder of monitoring and switches is 16-22.
Water temp stays at 140-155.
Electrolyte 10 tbls/gallon
1 each 1/2" ID tubing to feed base of cell
2 each 1/2" ID tubing to feed gas up to the reservoir
1 1/4" tube to transport gas to engine
gas is introduced to the engine between the air cleaner and throttle body.
Electrolyte usage is roughly 1/2 pint per 400 miles.
Running voltage indicated at the unit 13.5-14.

Everything seemed to be running fine on the bench and I seasoned the plates for 48 hours (weekend) with distilled and later used some KOH to get the cell rolling. All the power equipment was running perfectly.

After installation the elec power system started to have problems. First one of the cooling fans quit. (replaced) Then the power solenoid quit. (replaced)
Then both fans quit (replaced) Then the PWM quit. I gave up.

So now its a matter of restacking the plates and figuring out just what the heck is happening electrically speaking. What I'm also hearing from you guys is that I might be better with a second battery nearer the unit. OK this I can do.

But what is on my priority list is a PWM that will do the job and not break the bank. Plus the fact of how much power is required to generate enough "H" to make an MPG difference. I was under the "impression" that I could stay under 25 amps and develop plenty of gas. But for the first time in all my readings, you guys referenced about "steam", which makes perfect sense.

I'm all ears gentlemen......

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2192/3369/5479184027_medium.jpg

MGXJ,
Good morning. Thank you for the run down on your system, now we can make some progress! You have enough plate area that you can skip a PWM altogether if you do as Myoldyourgold advises and have your plates sand (media) blasted. This increases plate emissive area at least four-fold and will allow you to use full strength electrolyte which will greatly reduce the resistance within your reactor and raise your gas output by a significant amount. PWM's really are only necessary on systems that have not been designed properly, or else are used in conjunction with throttle movement through mechanical or electronic linkage to vary production based on throttle position, which is not a bad idea if you can rig it. You MUST reassemble the reactor in a
-nnnnnn+nnnnnn- configuration as was also suggested. We (mentors) still get aggravated and shake our heads at the configurations being touted on Ebay as "The Best!". These things are made by folks that are good and careful builders, but don't seem to have a clue as to the the relationship between plate area, current density and electrical demand, or voltage division & resistance heating, or the role that electrolyte conductance plays. It has taken me years and years to begin to see how all these thing inter-relate and I am not as far along in depth of understanding as others here but I could easily manufacture a much more efficient and lpm targeted reactor than most of the fly-by-nighter's out there.
So, take that thing apart and do the mods, look up the "passivation" threads when you get your plates back from media blasting and prepare them properly, you'll be glad you did. From this point on, others will have to assist you with your engine electronics because I'm an old-school diesel guy, and it only takes diesel fuel, a good ground, and one little red positive wire for my engine to run-:D

[MtnGoatXJ]

OK those plates were smooth and shiney, no wonder..........

I've bead blasted the plates and reconfigured to -NNNNNN+NNNNN-NNNNNN+

The odd center is due to hardware limitations.

Here's the big question.
How should I proceed with developing the electrolyte?
Keep adding KOH or NaOH until I reach a given amperage draw?
Or just add a small amount and run it?

I looked up passivation and found a little to gather a better understanding of what/ why and how.
I did locate orange/lemon powder at a local micro-brewery. Couldn't I just rub a lemon on the plates?

[BioFarmer93]

OK those plates were smooth and shiney, no wonder..........

I've bead blasted the plates and reconfigured to -NNNNNN+NNNNN-NNNNNN+

The odd center is due to hardware limitations.

Here's the big question.
How should I proceed with developing the electrolyte?
Keep adding KOH or NaOH until I reach a given amperage draw?
Or just add a small amount and run it?

I looked up passivation and found a little to gather a better understanding of what/ why and how.
I did locate orange/lemon powder at a local micro-brewery. Couldn't I just rub a lemon on the plates?

MGXJ,
Good deal on the bead blasting, but scrounge around and locate one piece of 316L S.S. to make that missing center stack neutral out of, or else pull one neutral from each of the two end stacks. The stacks all need to be equal. Five neutrals will put you at 2.3V per cell, not too bad, a lot of folks run 5 neutrals and think it's the cat's fanny.. It just wont be as efficient as 6 and wont make quite as much gas. Since you are trying to limit your amp draw, when you mix your KOH you might try mixing it at half strength, that's 860ml of distilled water and 140gr (5oz) of KOH.

Of course you can rub a lemon on the plates! It wont work worth a hoot, but you can do it... Passivate the plates (after washing thoroughly) with a 10% solution of citric acid & distilled water @ 160F for at least two hours, rinse with distilled water only and let air dry, or if you have access to an oxygen tank, hang them in a tape sealed cardboard box (or whatever you have handy) and let them dry in that oxygen rich environment.

Last thing, and I know you're not going to care for this, you really ought to go up to 0 gauge wire on your run from the battery. You are losing a lot of power to resistance with only 8 gauge.

[MtnGoatXJ]

Bio,
Many thanks for your replies and knowledge share.

Half strength solution formula has me perplexed. At first I thought it might be a typo.......860ml = 0.2 gals?

My mixes to date to make a 20 amp draw (with a PWM) has only been 10-12 tablespoons to a gallon of DW.

I'm not questioning but just double checking

FYI the cable run is copper 1/4' dia to the reactor. I think that's 4ga. The reactor is wired with 8ga.

Oh and more plates are on the way. :D

[BioFarmer93]

Sorry,
I figured you had been reading around in here and came across mention somewhere of 28%KOH by weight. THAT is full strength electrolyte. No insult at all intended my friend, but what you have been using is considered very weak. But- it was necessary because your plates were not configured properly. Now that you will be running a proper design, you will see a good increase in the amount of real (dry) HHO you make, and you will probably see your amp draw go up as well because you do have a fairly good sized reactor.

BTW- It's totally OK to question- it's how you learn and it makes me think twice about what I'm spouting here.

Cable run sounds like it may be alright- feel it after 5min, 10min, 30min.. You are going to be pulling more amps now.

Good news on the extra plates.;)

Keep us in the loop!

[MtnGoatXJ]

No worries. Not the first time I was told my juice was weak....:rolleyes:

Gotta read more too!

[MtnGoatXJ]

OK
The plates have been blasted and passivated.
Still have the 6N5N6N configuration but this is not the final config.
Removed the PWM from the circuit.
Added flake KOH until I was indicating 15 amps @ 13 volts. (like a pound :eek:)

After a short run the voltage at the reactor dropped to 12.25.
At the moment the gas output is more than I've noticed before.

Only way to measure success is drive it for a tankful I guess...

More to follow :)

[MtnGoatXJ]

Well I did something!

MPG went down. Believe it or not, this is GOOD!

Thanks to all.

[MtnGoatXJ]

Seems that the generator really sends a lot of moisture into the intake.

So much so that the throttle plate is eroding away.
I spent an hour cleaning off the accumulated CAa-Caa in the throttle body and was not impressed. So now comes the hunderd doller question:

Will two bubblers be better than one? Or am I introducing the HHO at the wrong place between the TB and air filter?

[myoldyourgold]

Seems that the generator really sends a lot of moisture into the intake.

So much so that the throttle plate is eroding away.
I spent an hour cleaning off the accumulated CAa-Caa in the throttle body and was not impressed. So now comes the hunderd doller question:

Will two bubblers be better than one? Or am I introducing the HHO at the wrong place between the TB and air filter?

I would first add a small amount of boric acid to the bubbler. Obviously your bubbler is not doing the job it is supposed to. It might need to be longer mine are 15 inches. You need a diffuser in the bubbler to make small bubbles because the cleaning takes place on the outside of the bubbles not the inside. What ever is in the inside of the bubble makes it into the engine. Two bubblers is always better than one. The longer time the bubbles can travel through water with boric acid the cleaner/more naturalized it will be. What temperature is the reactor running at? With 3 stacks there is always a greater flow and balance problem which makes hot spots. You might want to brake it down to 3 reactors run in parallel. This will bring the temp down and you will have less moisture in the gas and less chance of hot spots. Just some ideas. I have found multi stacked reactors are not as efficient as single stack ones or at least not more than 2 stacks in bipolar setups.

[BioFarmer93]

MGXJ,
-Taller bubbler, smaller bubbles, route gas into airbox to take advantage of air filter or else buy/fabricate a desiccant dryer or flow-through absorbent cotton fabric or cotton ball filter from PVC parts and pieces.
Smaller bubbles in a taller bubbler(s) with boric acid as Carter suggested will go a long way to clean residual KOH out of the wet gas.
-Here is a homemade dryer of mine...

http://www.hhoforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1937&d=1314063783

[MtnGoatXJ]

Gottcha.

The bubbler is about a foot long out of 1.5" PVC with a plastic tube on the outside to monitor liquid level. I have been returning the electrolyte back to the cell when the level is beyond 75% of the bubbler height. I found that if the reservoir is filled to a certain level, more electrolyte will pass to the engine. So that means checking the level more than once a tank of fuel (300 miles)

Temps range around 150-170 degrees in the summer. I added cooling fans around the reservoir and main relay to keep the temp stable.

Will be adding a fish tank "air filter/bubbler" to the inlet line and extend the length another 6-8 inches or whatever can be spared in the engine bay. And some boric acid.

Thanks for the suggestions guys!

[Quebecker]

Be careful, do not return the liquid bubbler in the electrolyte reservoir. The liquid from the bubbler is made to clean the HHO gas. If you have added caustic soda, you will contaminate your electrolyte (reservoir and possibly even your cell).

[BioFarmer93]

MGXJ,
Did you mean that your reactor is running at 150-170F, or your electronics?
If reactor then something is bad wrong... That's way WAY too hot.:eek: Time to start checking things over.