2000 Camry 2.2L 4cyl (Best HHO intake placement?)

[jerrymc777]

Been reading this forum for quite a while and am now trying to do my own install on my 2000 Camry 2.2L 4cyl engine in CA.

My question is: Where would be the best location to place my HHO output to my intake? I've included a picture with arrows/numbers, but I've always read that the best location is closest to the manifold. As you can see in my picture, there are many hoses and ports to the manifold.

#5 hose appears to be rerouted back to the airfilter, opposite side of #2. I've searched my Haynes manual and online manuals to find out what this port is/does to no avail. I'm assuming it's an emmissions hose.

I will be using:

1. One Dry Cell, 26 4"x5" plates, -NNNN+NNNN-NNNN+NNNN-NNNN+ design with KOH & distilled water.

2. One 2 or 3 qt. reservoir/bubbler, depending upon where I can fit this under the hood.

3. One flashback arrestor.

4. One vaporizer/filter, depending on placement of HHO intake to engine. Possibly not needed?

5. One 15A PWM for control of production & current.

6. One MAP/MAF Enhancer.

7. Ammeter, On/Off switch, 30A inline fuse, 40A solenoid/switch, etc...

In 2008 I've messed around with some cheap HHO wet cells and wasn't too impressed, but now that I see the dry cell is the way to go, it's getting exciting again!

Thanks guys/gals for the help!:D

[myoldyourgold]

OK this is better. #5 where is it connected on the manifold side? Is it on the manifold or the throttle body. That is what is not visible.

I think you are confusing the reservoir with a bubbler. They are two different things even though the gas is bubbling through both of them. The bubbler does not have electrolyte in it, only clean water and I suggest some boric acid.

As I stated in the other thread that the reactor is much larger than need be and the number of n's will create to much heat. You only need 1 to 1.5 LPM.

Go to a -nnnnn+nnnnn-. If you need more which you will not for this engine you can build another one and run it in parallel each producing 600 mlpm and very efficiently.

I will get back to this when I have more time and others will I am sure give you some good advise.

[jerrymc777]

OK this is better. #5 where is it connected on the manifold side? Is it on the manifold or the throttle body. That is what is not visible.

I think you are confusing the reservoir with a bubbler. They are two different things even though the gas is bubbling through both of them. The bubbler does not have electrolyte in it, only clean water and I suggest some boric acid.

As I stated in the other thread that the reactor is much larger than need be and the number of n's will create to much heat. You only need 1 to 1.5 LPM.

Go to a -nnnnn+nnnnn-. If you need more which you will not for this engine you can build another one and run it in parallel each producing 600 mlpm and very efficiently.

I will get back to this when I have more time and others will I am sure give you some good advise.

Here's a closer pic. #5 appears to be connected to the intake air temperature switch (IAT), from what I can see in the Haynes manual. Although it's not exactly in the same spot as Hayne's illustration.

Yes, the reservoir is not a bubbler; not sure why they're listed as such on Ebay. Wouldn't filling the bubbler with boric acid cause it to leak back into the reservoir(KOH)?

Since I don't know how to build a dry cell or even have the tools, I ordered the cell from a guy on Ebay and that's the configuration he and others are using for a 26 plate design. Since I only have a 15A max PWM, wouldn't that keep it cooler? I really only want to max it out at 10A. I don't want to have to replace my alternator just yet... :)

Thanks again for the help!

[myoldyourgold]

Here's a closer pic. #5 appears to be connected to the intake air temperature switch (IAT), from what I can see in the Haynes manual. Although it's not exactly in the same spot as Hayne's illustration.

Yes, the reservoir is not a bubbler; not sure why they're listed as such on Ebay. Wouldn't filling the bubbler with boric acid cause it to leak back into the reservoir(KOH)?

Since I don't know how to build a dry cell or even have the tools, I ordered the cell from a guy on Ebay and that's the configuration he and others are using for a 26 plate design. Since I only have a 15A max PWM, wouldn't that keep it cooler? I really only want to max it out at 10A. I don't want to have to replace my alternator just yet.

I would put a vacuum gauge on that port and see if it has low vacuum at idle and raises with rpm. If it does you can use it by adding a T. If it does the opposite then you can not.

This is how your flow should be: Electrolyte form the bottom of your reservoir goes to the bottom of the reactor. Gas and electrolyte exits the top of the reactor and goes back to the reservoir. The gas bubbles through the electrolyte in the reservoir and exits the top of the reservoir to the bubbler (clean water) and bubbles up through the water and out the top to a dry filter and then through a flash back arrestor to the injection point.

Now there are different methods of where the gas/electrolyte enters both the reservoir and bubbler. I have the gas entering the top and going down a tube to the bottom. On the bottom of the tube going down in the bubbler I use a diffuser to make very small bubbles so the gas gets as clean as possible traveling through 15 inches of water. No need for a diffuser in the reservoir. Distance is important not the amount of water. Long narrow bubblers are better than short fat ones.

To many people are confusing the reservoir with the bubbler because both have gas bubbling through them. They are very different animals and should not be confused. I put just a very small amount of boric acid, which is a very mild acid in my bubbler water.

To stop the reservoir form sucking the liquid out of the bubbler you must use a vacuum brake because during cool down a vacuum is formed in the reactor. A normal one way valve between the reservoir and the bubbler will leak and is not safe if vented to atmosphere. I have found with a good filter in front of it and venting it back to the air cleaner for safety it works. I use a home made filter and two one way valves in series. The [B]last one in the series[B] being electrical and has a tube connected to it that goes to a flash back arrestor and then to the air cleaner just in case both valves leak. I doubt this will ever happen but you can never be to safe. The electrical valve is normally open. That means it closes when the reactor has an electrical connection and opens when there is no electrical connection. I am sure there are simpler ways to do this but this is safe and works for me.

In winter in colder climates you can not use plain water in the bubbler, it will freeze. I am still working on a good solution for this and will post it when the problem is solved.

The easiest bubbler is a good dry filter I would check out Koyo's setup when he posts it.

[BioFarmer93]

Jerry,
In this last photo "..IAT marked.jpg" approximately where your ring finger appears to be, on the side/underside of that intake tube, drill a 9/16" dia. hole and and screw in a nylon 3/8-18NPTx3/8" hose barb, straight or elbow. Screw it 2/3 the way in then stop and apply a light bead of black RTV sealant on the exposed threads, then screw it the rest of the way in... You're good to go.

PS- take the intake tube off to drill it and make sure no plastic shavings are in it when you re-install it.

PPS- When you get your reactor, immediately take it apart and take the plates to a place that does sand blasting and have them turn the pressure down a little (so they don't warp the plates) and blast them. When you re-assemble the reactor, do it as myoldyourgold advised you and go with at least 5 neutral plates so that you are making HHO, not steam.
-nnnnn+nnnnn- is all you need or want for your engine size.

[Quebecker]

I would put a vacuum gauge on that port and see if it has low vacuum at idle and raises with rpm. If it does you can use it by adding a T. If it does the opposite then you can not.

This is how your flow should be: Electrolyte form the bottom of your reservoir goes to the bottom of the reactor. Gas and electrolyte exits the top of the reactor and goes back to the reservoir. The gas bubbles through the electrolyte in the reservoir and exits the top of the reservoir to the bubbler (clean water) and bubbles up through the water and out the top to a dry filter and then through a flash back arrestor to the injection point.

Now there are different methods of where the gas/electrolyte enters both the reservoir and bubbler. I have the gas entering the top and going down a tube to the bottom. On the bottom of the tube going down in the bubbler I use a diffuser to make very small bubbles so the gas gets as

clean as possible traveling through 15 inches of water. No need for a diffuser in the reservoir. Distance is important not the amount of water. Long narrow bubblers are better than short fat ones.

To many people are confusing the reservoir with the bubbler because both have gas bubbling through them. They are very different animals and should not be confused. I put just a very small amount of boric acid, which is a very mild acid in my bubbler water.

To stop the reservoir form sucking the liquid out of the bubbler you must use a vacuum brake because during cool down a vacuum is formed in the reactor. A normal one way valve between the reservoir and the bubbler will leak and is not safe if vented to atmosphere. I have found with a good filter in front of it and venting it back to the air cleaner for safety it works. I use a home made filter and two one way valves in series. The [B]last one in the series[B] being electrical and has a tube connected to it that goes to a flash back arrestor and then to the air cleaner just in case both valves leak. I doubt this will ever happen but you can never be to safe. The electrical valve is normally open. That means it closes when the reactor has an electrical connection and opens when there is no electrical connection. I am sure there are simpler ways to do this but this is safe and works for me.

In winter in colder climates you can not use plain water in the bubbler, it will freeze. I am still working on a good solution for this and will post it when the problem is solved.

The easiest bubbler is a good dry filter I would check out Koyo's setup when he posts it.

Could you tell approx. How much boric acid do you use ?
How many boric acid Tbsp per liter Of distiller Water

Thanks

[jerrymc777]

Jerry,
In this last photo "..IAT marked.jpg" approximately where your ring finger appears to be, on the side/underside of that intake tube, drill a 9/16" dia. hole and and screw in a nylon 3/8-18NPTx3/8" hose barb, straight or elbow. Screw it 2/3 the way in then stop and apply a light bead of black RTV sealant on the exposed threads, then screw it the rest of the way in... You're good to go.

PS- take the intake tube off to drill it and make sure no plastic shavings are in it when you re-install it.

PPS- When you get your reactor, immediately take it apart and take the plates to a place that does sand blasting and have them turn the pressure down a little (so they don't warp the plates) and blast them. When you re-assemble the reactor, do it as myoldyourgold advised you and go with at least 5 neutral plates so that you are making HHO, not steam.
-nnnnn+nnnnn- is all you need or want for your engine size.

I believe you're talking about the large black plastic square/rectangle intake hose?

This is fantastic info. and I appreciate ALL of your help! :D

[jerrymc777]

I would put a vacuum gauge on that port and see if it has low vacuum at idle and raises with rpm. If it does you can use it by adding a T. If it does the opposite then you can not.

This is how your flow should be: Electrolyte form the bottom of your reservoir goes to the bottom of the reactor. Gas and electrolyte exits the top of the reactor and goes back to the reservoir. The gas bubbles through the electrolyte in the reservoir and exits the top of the reservoir to the bubbler (clean water) and bubbles up through the water and out the top to a dry filter and then through a flash back arrestor to the injection point.

Now there are different methods of where the gas/electrolyte enters both the reservoir and bubbler. I have the gas entering the top and going down a tube to the bottom. On the bottom of the tube going down in the bubbler I use a diffuser to make very small bubbles so the gas gets as clean as possible traveling through 15 inches of water. No need for a diffuser in the reservoir. Distance is important not the amount of water. Long narrow bubblers are better than short fat ones.

To many people are confusing the reservoir with the bubbler because both have gas bubbling through them. They are very different animals and should not be confused. I put just a very small amount of boric acid, which is a very mild acid in my bubbler water.

To stop the reservoir form sucking the liquid out of the bubbler you must use a vacuum brake because during cool down a vacuum is formed in the reactor. A normal one way valve between the reservoir and the bubbler will leak and is not safe if vented to atmosphere. I have found with a good filter in front of it and venting it back to the air cleaner for safety it works. I use a home made filter and two one way valves in series. The [B]last one in the series[B] being electrical and has a tube connected to it that goes to a flash back arrestor and then to the air cleaner just in case both valves leak. I doubt this will ever happen but you can never be to safe. The electrical valve is normally open. That means it closes when the reactor has an electrical connection and opens when there is no electrical connection. I am sure there are simpler ways to do this but this is safe and works for me.

In winter in colder climates you can not use plain water in the bubbler, it will freeze. I am still working on a good solution for this and will post it when the problem is solved.

The easiest bubbler is a good dry filter I would check out Koyo's setup when he posts it.

I removed this IAT hose (on the IAT sensor side) with the engine running and the engine ran smoother and at a higher RPM. I test drove it around the block (disconnected) and it drove great.

The hose does have a strong vacuum but I don't have a gauge to read the amount.

Thanks myoldyourgold for all your help. It is greatly appreciated!
I can't wait to get this project going and to document my results and post here and on YouTube!:p

[BioFarmer93]

I believe you're talking about the large black plastic square/rectangle intake hose?

This is fantastic info. and I appreciate ALL of your help! :D

HUH?! Not hose, The BIG ROUND TUBE THAT THE INTAKE AIR GOES THROUGH TO THE THROTTLE BODY. It looks like it has donuts around it and in the photo it bends right then left and attaches to the throttle body.

[jerrymc777]

HUH?! Not hose, The BIG ROUND TUBE THAT THE INTAKE AIR GOES THROUGH TO THE THROTTLE BODY. It looks like it has donuts around it and in the photo it bends right then left and attaches to the throttle body.

LOL...yes that's what I was referring to. In person it looks kinda square.
Ya, I didn't think I could drill a hole through a tiny 3/8" hose...:D

[myoldyourgold]

Do not use this port if it has strong vacuum at idle. In order to work it must have no vacuum at idle. The vacuum can not be manifold vacuum but a venturi type vacuum. Vacuum injection is not as simple as it sounds. I would not disconnect it but add a T in the line so it still sends vacuum to the IAT. The much simpler method would be to follow Bio's recommendation. Vacuum can get tricky and if not done right start sucking water from your bubbler or worse electrolyte out of the reservoir and will need to be controlled if it is to strong. This starts to get complicated. there are some cheap vacuum gauges like at Harbor Freight. Something you will need if you go this route.

[jerrymc777]

Do not use this port if it has strong vacuum at idle. In order to work it must have no vacuum at idle. The vacuum can not be manifold vacuum but a venturi type vacuum. Vacuum injection is not as simple as it sounds. I would not disconnect it but add a T in the line so it still sends vacuum to the IAT. The much simpler method would be to follow Bio's recommendation. Vacuum can get tricky and if not done right start sucking water from your bubbler or worse electrolyte out of the reservoir and will need to be controlled if it is to strong. This starts to get complicated. there are some cheap vacuum gauges like at Harbor Freight. Something you will need if you go this route.

Thanks myoldyourgold!

Ya, even though my camry's almost 12 years old, it has been good to me and I'd rather test on an older car than a newer one.

If I place the bubbler below the air intake like say 10", do you think I'd still have a problem with it sucking water/vapor into my manifold?

Also, what percentage of boric acid do you suggest in the bubbler?

[myoldyourgold]

If this port has no vacuum at idle it is the port I have used for water injection and have seen when the needle valve is set wrong that at cursing speed when vacuum is high it just sucked most of the water out of a gallon container that was a good 2 or more feet away and at least 12 to 15 inches below. So you need to be careful. The spot Bio recommended has no, or very little vacuum, if any and has none of these problems. Remember when injecting after the air cleaner you must have really clean gas because there is no air cleaner to catch any remaining electrolyte.

[jerrymc777]

If this port has no vacuum at idle it is the port I have used for water injection and have seen when the needle valve is set wrong that at cursing speed when vacuum is high it just sucked most of the water out of a gallon container that was a good 2 or more feet away and at least 12 to 15 inches below. So you need to be careful. The spot Bio recommended has no, or very little vacuum, if any and has none of these problems. Remember when injecting after the air cleaner you must have really clean gas because there is no air cleaner to catch any remaining electrolyte.

Well, after doing more research on the IAT sensor, it appears that's not what this is.
It appears to be mounted (first photo) on top of what looks like the charcoal canister.(second photo)
#1 hose goes to manifold(previous photo with my hand on it), #2 hose runs down and attaches to a metal hose going underneath towards the back of car.(fuel tank?)
#3 is the electrical connection.

Still not sure why the engine runs smoother with #1 hose disconnected, but I won't disconnect it again, unless this sensor is faulty.
Is this just a lost cause teeing into this line?

If I bore out the larger hose and use a bubbler with boric acid, should I still use a filter/vaporizer?
Are there any instructions on making a vaporizer/filter on this forum?

Sorry for all the questions; I just want to get this sorted out before cutting and boring things out. :)

[myoldyourgold]

What do you mean buy filter/vaporizer? Bio's suggested location is still the best. You can always plug it up if you want to use a different location.

[jerrymc777]

What do you mean buy filter/vaporizer? Bio's suggested location is still the best. You can always plug it up if you want to use a different location.

I've read that a vaporizer/filter will remove the water and/or electrolyte before entering the manifold. (foam, etc...) Just in case...

[myoldyourgold]

I've read that a vaporizer/filter will remove the water and/or electrolyte before entering the manifold. (foam, etc...) Just in case...

I would be interested in reading about that can you post a link? If your bubbler is working correctly you should not need an additional filter. Moisture is not bad as long as it does not have any volume of harmful electrolyte in it.

[jerrymc777]

I would be interested in reading about that can you post a link? If your bubbler is working correctly you should not need an additional filter. Moisture is not bad as long as it does not have any volume of harmful electrolyte in it.

I think lots of people are using these terms interchangeably and very sloppily....

Bubbler = Vaporizer = Scrubber = Flashback arrestor
Check Valve = Semi-flash arrestor
Cell = Reactor
Reservoir = Electrolyte Tank that bubbles (LOL)

Here are some links:

http://www.amazon.com/Magnum-water4gas-Bubbler-Hydrogen-Vaporizer/dp/B004TXXV0A

http://www.magnumtuning.com/en/product_text/hydrogen_vaporizer-bubbler_to_all_hho_projects

http://cgi.ebay.com/HHO-SCRUBBER-VAPORIZER-RESERVOIR-HYDROGEN-GENERATOR-/110706347172?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19c69ccca4


(This guy's using fuel as a vaporizer instead of HHO.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BMKtlY3GLw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s24AA23En78&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

I wish we had a glossary of definitions so people don't try to rip us off.

[myoldyourgold]

Well I learn something everyday. Call it what ever you want you need to have a bubbler which does two jobs. Cleans the electrolyte out and is a secondary safety devise against a flash back making it to your reservoir and blowing electrolyte all over everything. When using oil you must uses a Flash pot connected to the bubbler to prevent oil form getting splattered all over everything. Here is the one I make. Simple and cheap to make and is adjustable for release pressure.

[jerrymc777]

Well I learn something everyday. Call it what ever you want you need to have a bubbler which does two jobs. Cleans the electrolyte out and is a secondary safety devise against a flash back making it to your reservoir and blowing electrolyte all over everything. When using oil you must uses a Flash pot connected to the bubbler to prevent oil form getting splattered all over everything. Here is the one I make. Simple and cheap to make and is adjustable for release pressure.
What is a "FlashPot"'s purpose?
Oil from what?

[myoldyourgold]

What is a "FlashPot"'s purpose?
Oil from what?

In the event you have a flash back that reaches the bubbler the gas in the bubbler explodes destroying it in some cases. This is one of the major functions of the bubbler is to protect the rest of the system. Some times it survives with only minor damage depending on the material and build but most of the time the liquid leaks out. The flash pot is connected to the bubbler and opens under the extreme pressure caused by the explosion and releases the pressure and fire. It then closes quickly not letting any air to get into the bubbler, this helps to stop a possible second explosion or continued burning for lack of O2 and lets thing keep working, saving the bubbler. If you are using an oil based liquid in the bubbler for winter to prevent freezing then you prevent it form being sprayed all over which is what would happen without a flash pot. The flash pot is basically a pressure release valve the releases pressure and the flash. None of this should happen if everything is running right but safety is still number ONE.

http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=7148

[jerrymc777]

Jerry,
In this last photo "..IAT marked.jpg" approximately where your ring finger appears to be, on the side/underside of that intake tube, drill a 9/16" dia. hole and and screw in a nylon 3/8-18NPTx3/8" hose barb, straight or elbow. Screw it 2/3 the way in then stop and apply a light bead of black RTV sealant on the exposed threads, then screw it the rest of the way in... You're good to go.

PS- take the intake tube off to drill it and make sure no plastic shavings are in it when you re-install it.

PPS- When you get your reactor, immediately take it apart and take the plates to a place that does sand blasting and have them turn the pressure down a little (so they don't warp the plates) and blast them. When you re-assemble the reactor, do it as myoldyourgold advised you and go with at least 5 neutral plates so that you are making HHO, not steam.
-nnnnn+nnnnn- is all you need or want for your engine size.

Would using a very fine sandpaper on the plates produce the same results as sandblasting?

[MtnGoatXJ]

No, very course sand paper will.

Like 80 or 40 grit

[myoldyourgold]

No, very course sand paper will.

Like 80 or 40 grit

Even 80 to 40 grit is nothing like a media blasted plate. It is surly better than nothing at all but you really can not compare the to because the difference is night and day. Just a little exaggeration but you get the point.