PM from J oops

[BioFarmer93]

Been reading alot on the HHO the last couple of weeks. Read about it orignally 3 years ago and was not impressed. I'm currently very impressed.
Currently what I drive and plan on installing the HHO generator on is a 2001 Dodge diesel 4x4.
I believe I need around 6 to 7 lpm of HHO.
I think your unipolar set up sounds the most logical. Was courious what vehicle your set up is on.
Also how is your unipolar set working and how much LPM are you getting out of it?
I've followed your build thread on it and was curious if your finished with it completly or are still having to do some modifying on it?
I'm very mechanical knowledgable and have strong understanding of vehicle electrical systems and some medium knowledge of electronics.
Thanks. Any help would be very much appreciated.

Hey J oops,
Welcome to the forum, and thank you for your service. You are unable to receive personal messages so I'm responding in the forum.

My systems feeds a 1989 International Navistar 7.3L idi non-turbo diesel that Ford used between mid '88 to mid '94 in F-250 & F-350 trucks. I also run water/alcohol injection from a homemade system.
For that Cummins of yours you'll probably want about 6lpm which will pull ~75A. There is some debate over diesels and much HHO to use. Some insist that it is the same rule of thumb as gas cars- 1/2lpm per liter of displacement. I disagree, I feel that 1lpm per liter of displacement is just a starting point. This may not be the case for modern electronic diesels, but for old idi's with no sensors, it's great. For high gas output I recommend a unipolar build because it makes more gas for less amps. More plastic, drilling, tapping, fittings and hose is needed but you end up with a much higher efficiency reactor.
Mine has been finished, installed, enjoyed, uninstalled and is nearly finished being rebuilt at significantly less than half of its original plate count, going from 84 to 35 plates. The first time around I slaved a pulley to my power steering pulley to run an extra 150A dedicated system alternator. I only saw a 3.5mpg gain and attribute some of that to extra drag on the engine, and some of it to all the damn leaks I had in hose connections. Word to the wise- don't go cheap on hose clamps... The Output was never measured because of the leaks and the fact that I never got around to building a eudiometer. Well, I've learned a lot since then, mostly about plate prep and current density (not to mention hose clamps) and have an eudiometer sitting in the shop just waiting to be used. There will be no bench testing, only installed testing running from the alt at 2000rpm.
Your electronics knowledge will serve you well should it become necessary to mod your ecu- but you can install a controller can't you? Your 2001 is an electronic 12 valve, right? Anyway, you will probably want to go up on your alternator output, I'd say 150-170A ought to do you good enough unless your running a butt load of lights and a big sound system too.

Take care, Keep your eyes and ears open and your head down and ask as many questions as you like... Gus

[j oops]

Oops about the PM thing. Realized after, that I had my setting set wrong and corrected them.
My dodge is a 24v Cummins. I've had to all ready make some electronic changes to my truck as it is. Dodge never did to great when it came to their ECU.
Would you have a drawing of how you redid your plate set up? What was the reason for reducing the amount of plates? I have studied your original design, to me it seems simple enough.
What plate size would you recommend for a 6lpm to 7lpm generator? And since you had to reduce the amount of plates you were using how many plates would you reccomend for me to use?
Thanks for your help.

[j oops]

Let me rephrase one of those questions. How many square inches would you reccomend for the 6 to 7lpm.
Myyouroldgold stated about 15 to 20 square inches, calculated only 1 side of the plate. Is this what you would recommend also? That seems kinda small.

You stated in your post earlier that you had to go smaller. I'm assuming that is because you were making more LPM then expected?

What do you recomend. Thanks.

[BioFarmer93]

I'm pretty sure Myoldyourgold meant 15 to 20 sq. inches per plate.
OK, so we're going to work this out..
MENTORS - do you agree with this method?-
We need 6.5 lpm, I estimate ~13A per liter- so, 6.5x13=84.5(A)x1/4sq. in. per amp. So, 84.5x4=338sq. in. total for one side of plates. Reactor consists of 7 groups, so 338/7=48.285, which I am rounding up to 50 for ease of calculation. 5 plates will circulate better than 10 plates, so I'm going with 5 plates per group @ 10sq. in. per plate. We learned from Larry that slots work better than holes, and wider is better than taller, so disregarding the area for slots at top and bottom, I get a working area of 2.875" vertical x 3.5" horizontal.
Now we add back in the top & bottom slots @ .125 each to get 3.125" vertical, and add 1.0" to each dimension for the gasket to arrive at a final dimension of 4.5" horizontal x 4.125" vertical.
Does this impress anyone besides me as being a little on the small side? Can you imagine how small it would be if I calculated it for .5A per sq. in.?

J oops, I'm working on a drawing for you but it's going to be a day or two before I can finish it because I have to get outside and work on a retaining wall now. If I'm not too tired this evening I'll take a couple of photos up close on my divider plates so you can see how the function is accomplished.

[BioFarmer93]

I've been calculating bipolar stuff for folks and I overlooked something important about unipolar reactors that I have bowed to peer pressure about, but will no longer. Double the area. I'm working on the drawing this evening and will include the revised sizes.

[lhazleton]

You go, Gus! Check your PM...................;)

[j oops]

Thanks Gus.
I'm following all the math and I understand. But I was surprised at the 13A per Liter and the size of the plates. The unipolar is definitly way better.

The only thing that sucks is how much space the HDPE plates take up.

I've been doing alot of reading on this site and I've noticed their appears to only be around 4 people who are sharing there info. I don't know if this is because nobody else is expermenting or nobody else want to share.

Or is their nobody else who have built these unipolar setups?

[g.avinash206]

Hello sir/madam,

I have Diesel generators of range above 100kva, so for reducing my diesel expenses...can i get a HHO unit for my diesel generators and if so...can you please tell me from where can i get it.... and in the same way i need HHO generator for my electric welding instrument. so please help me out.

Thanking you.

[BioFarmer93]

Thanks Gus.
I'm following all the math and I understand. But I was surprised at the 13A per Liter and the size of the plates. The unipolar is definitly way better.

The only thing that sucks is how much space the HDPE plates take up.

I've been doing alot of reading on this site and I've noticed their appears to only be around 4 people who are sharing there info. I don't know if this is because nobody else is expermenting or nobody else want to share.

Or is their nobody else who have built these unipolar setups?

Joops,
The 13A per liter is a best estimate based on the outputs of many different systems, yours may be a little better but it won't be worse. I estimate that your unit is going to be about 15"x7"x6"- not counting projections like fittings and bolt ends.
There are two other people I know of that build unipolar style reactors, one of them actually builds hybrid uni/bipolar units that are cutting edge stuff, but for the sake of patents being sought for it he has been advised by his lawyer to keep the details out of the public eye. The other guy is Larry (HHOPWR) and he checks in from time to time. His reactor is the result of a multi-week concerted group brainstorming and a Herculean effort in time and money on his part. His meticulously documented results confirmed the superiority of media blasting plates and the unipolar arrangement. Alas, all of this was accomplished on a site that has since been shut down, much to the sadness of us all.

[j oops]

This is getting better by the day.
I know your working on schematics for this.

I've done a rough drawing of some ideas I have on Microsoft PowerPoint. I have not put any measurements in. I can't find my URL #. And it throws an error code with the attachement option. Can you PM me your e-mail address.

[BioFarmer93]

-Still wont let me send you a PM...

[BioFarmer93]

OK, I got burned out this evening drawing the perspective of this thing and decided to just shoot a quick video instead. I'll definitely do the construction drawings, but perspective's are always a pain in the butt. Anyway, here is the link...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iioQ4kp8MNM

[myoldyourgold]

Some fine work there Bio. I think you will be really surprised with the results this time around. I wish my work was that good!!!

[koya1893]

Gus,

I don't like you when you post something I cannot view from work, now I have to wait until I get home to enjoy your fine work. I've finish my plates to try your cell design.

[BioFarmer93]

So you're taking the plunge... You are going to have to keep me updated with photos. What kind of amperage/area/output are you shooting for? If I read you right, you're probably going after the big diesel market now. How is the dryer/filter holding up so far? I did a "blow" test on my desiccant dryer and was surprised at the backpressure it developed, it felt like 3 or 4 psi.

[koya1893]

So you're taking the plunge... You are going to have to keep me updated with photos. What kind of amperage/area/output are you shooting for? If I read you right, you're probably going after the big diesel market now. How is the dryer/filter holding up so far? I did a "blow" test on my desiccant dryer and was surprised at the backpressure it developed, it felt like 3 or 4 psi.

Gus,

The filter is performing great, I am trying to capture some time to share the construction. My new project is for the T-58 Turbo Shaft gas turbine used of fixed generator being used in San Diego. A college buddy is an engineer there, he heard I am playing with this process. He had challege me to build a cell to assist with their fuel consumption. so I suggested inducing HHO to the T-58. will see. Yes, I am shooting for large production. this thinkering time to keep my going has evolved to something I might not much time to maintain.

[j oops]

Like what I'm seeing, very professional looking. Nice video.
Couple of questions.

1. I see holes instead of slots on the setup in the video.
2. Do gas holes need to be staggered on the unipolar design vs the polar design?
3. Using different reservoirs for the positive stack and negative stack- still required for the unipolar design?
4. Weldon 16 is this used only to seal the threads on the pipe fittings on the HDPE plates?

Thanks for all the help. I have a few people who are also interested and are waiting for me to get all the info.

[BioFarmer93]

You see holes because the plates were made before the superiority of slots for unipolar designs was realized/learned of.

No, the holes do NOT need to be staggered in a unipolar design, the necessity for staggering (neutral plates) doesn't exist any longer.

Separate reservoirs may be an overabundance of caution to prevent even the smallest amount of current leakage, which may be able to be eliminated by feed and gas hoses of sufficient length. Myoldyourgold, HHOPWR and I are still tossing this one around. I have the room in my truck bed so I'm going with separate reservoirs.

Weldon-16 is only used to electrically insulate in and around the holes on the SS plates in a BIPOLAR reactor, it is unnecessary in a UNIPOLAR reactor. Teflon tape can be used in the nylon to HDPE fitting connections.

[koya1893]

OK, I got burned out this evening drawing the perspective of this thing and decided to just shoot a quick video instead. I'll definitely do the construction drawings, but perspective's are always a pain in the butt. Anyway, here is the link...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iioQ4kp8MNM

Very nice... Now my unipolar Newbie question. In one of your answer to this post you'd shown 7 grouping to cut down on the amps between two plate. What was you solution mix are you using for those 7 groupings? Here's what I put together this evening. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Total of 15 plates. I was thinking of putting two of these together. Instead of having the 1" HDPE I was going to use my standard 3/8" and use straight fitting to connect the inlet and outlet for now just to test these configuration. I have an early flight so I ran out of time so I can get some sleep.

[BioFarmer93]

Very nice... Now my unipolar Newbie question. In one of your answer to this post you'd shown 7 grouping to cut down on the amps between two plate. What was you solution mix are you using for those 7 groupings? Here's what I put together this evening. -+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Total of 15 plates. I was thinking of putting two of these together. Instead of having the 1" HDPE I was going to use my standard 3/8" and use straight fitting to connect the inlet and outlet for now just to test these configuration. I have an early flight so I ran out of time so I can get some sleep.

Slam on the brakes chief!:eek: The divider plates split the volts not the amps, so that bad boy will be running 12v between each plate. I use 7 groups to split 13.6v in to 1.94v per group. In the first attached drawing is a 4 group reactor (my first one), it still shows standalone groups, so ignore that- the thing to pay attention to is the way the electrical connections are arranged. That and that alone, is what makes it unipolar. The second drawing shows how it is going together this time- except I'm showing two extra plates per group that aren't going to be there, but I am showing the path the e-lyte and gas take between groups to maintain a pos and a neg reservoir.

[j oops]

Ok, I sent you (Gus) the Two Power Point Presentations. After reading some more I read where you said that wider plates has proven better for gas production. The last email with the wider system what do you think?
Also more questions:


1. Maintenance:
a. How often does a person need to take apart the generator and clean it.
b. What does all the cleaning entail? Sand blasting the plates again or just wiping them down.
c. How long would I need to go before doing a complet drain/flush of the Electrolyte and replace with fresh Electrolyte.
d. What is the best fluid to use in the bubbler (remember I live in Alaska) and how often should I drain it.
e. Gaskets, can I reuse them or install new every time. There pretty exspensive.

2. Should I use a dryer? And what dryer would you recommend, a lot of different types out there.

I would think basing the maintenance off of miles would be a bad idea. Probably need to install a hour meter after the relay.

[koya1893]

Slam on the brakes chief!:eek: The divider plates split the volts not the amps, so that bad boy will be running 12v between each plate. I use 7 groups to split 13.6v in to 1.94v per group. In the first attached drawing is a 4 group reactor (my first one), it still shows standalone groups, so ignore that- the thing to pay attention to is the way the electrical connections are arranged. That and that alone, is what makes it unipolar. The second drawing shows how it is going together this time- except I'm showing two extra plates per group that aren't going to be there, but I am showing the path the e-lyte and gas take between groups to maintain a pos and a neg reservoir.


thank you my friend. Changing crew "Hot Pump", I got educated by one of the "AT" flying with me. I get it now, the plates the whole voltage arrangement.

[myoldyourgold]

Here is a simple explanation (no such thing) of how the unipolar works. In a bipolar setup like this: -nnnnnn+nnnnnn- you have 3 power plates and 6 n's 7 pairs/cells in each of the 2 stacks. Voltage is split by 7 (7 pairs /cells) and amps are split by 2 (2 stacks). Now in a bipolar setup with 4 power plates the amps would be split by 3 and so on as you add more stacks and power plates in series.

The unipolar has no neutrals and only power plates in series.

Example:| +-+-+ | -+-+- | +-+-+ | -+-+- | +-+-+ | -+-+- | +-+-+ | Each of the groups in this example has 5 power plates and splits the amps by 4 and the groups being in series split the voltage by the number of groups 7 in this example. The groups in a unipolar have the same function as pairs/cells in a bipolar stack as far as splitting voltage and the power plates have the same function as far as splitting amps in both a bipolar and unipolar setup. If you have 14 Volts feeding the reactor in this example there will be 2 volts per pair/cell and if you have 20 amps feeding the reactor in this example you will have 5 amps per pair.

5 power plates in a group splits amps by 4. Easy way to remember this is it splits the amps by one less than the number of power plates or by the number of pairs/cells in one group.

Pairs/cells in a bipolar setup and groups in a unipolar setup split the voltage in the same way but you need to remember that the split is by pair/cell so 7 cells (6 n's) splits voltage by 7 in a bipolar and 7 groups split voltage by 7 in a unipolar. Simple way to remember the voltage split in a bipolar setup, is it splits one more than the number of n's. A unipolar splits voltage by the number of groups.

Now if I have not totally confused you then it is your own fault! LOL

[BioFarmer93]

Here is a simple explanation (no such thing) of how the unipolar works. In a bipolar setup like this: -nnnnnn+nnnnnn- you have 3 power plates and 6 n's 7 pairs/cells in each of the 2 stacks. Voltage is split by 7 (7 pairs /cells) and amps are split by 2 (2 stacks). Now in a bipolar setup with 4 power plates the amps would be split by 3 and so on as you add more stacks and power plates in series.

The unipolar has no neutrals and only power plates in series.

Example:| +-+-+ | -+-+- | +-+-+ | -+-+- | +-+-+ | -+-+- | +-+-+ | Each of the groups in this example has 5 power plates and splits the amps by 4 and the groups being in series split the voltage by the number of groups 7 in this example. The groups in a unipolar have the same function as pairs/cells in a bipolar stack as far as splitting voltage and the power plates have the same function as far as splitting amps in both a bipolar and unipolar setup. If you have 14 Volts feeding the reactor in this example there will be 2 volts per pair/cell and if you have 20 amps feeding the reactor in this example you will have 5 amps per pair.

5 power plates in a group splits amps by 4. Easy way to remember this is it splits the amps by one less than the number of power plates or by the number of pairs/cells in one group.

Pairs/cells in a bipolar setup and groups in a unipolar setup split the voltage in the same way but you need to remember that the split is by pair/cell so 7 cells (6 n's) splits voltage by 7 in a bipolar and 7 groups split voltage by 7 in a unipolar. Simple way to remember the voltage split in a bipolar setup, is it splits one more than the number of n's. A unipolar splits voltage by the number of groups.

Now if I have not totally confused you then it is your own fault! LOL

Carter- for you my friend!:D

[myoldyourgold]

LMAO !!! Now if he didn't have so much hair on the top of his head the likeness would more realistic. LOL

[H2OPWR]

J OOPS, I don't get here very often but here is my 2 cents worth. My last reactor was huge and I was never able to explore its upper limits because my power supply would not supply all the power it wanted. It is hard to explain but I will try. It was actually 2 seperate reactors hoohed together. Each half had 7 sections. Each section had 14 plates that only measured 2"X4". Each section had a total active area of 104 sq inches. Each half had 1456 sq inches reactive plate surface for a total of 2912 for the entire reactor. I ran out of power at 10 LPM and started blowing breakers in my house. I could unhook half of it and still get an easy 10 LPM from total of 1456 Sq Inches surface area with no heat build up. In fact I went far enough as to insulate the entire reactor trying to make it warm up some. I guess I am trying to answer your question as far as size. If I could make 10 LPM with 1456 sq inches reactive syrface area then you can get 6 LPM from around 1000 total sq inches with ease. You might want to upsize that some as I was only running at 13.1 to 13.3 volts. I was never able to approach 2 volts per section without blowing a breaker. An automotive system will make from 13.8 to 14 volts. My reactor would have run away with itself at high KOH concentrations at that voltage.

One thing you will need to pay extra close attention to will be plate prep. If you don't media blast your plates then my best guess would be to triple the size and expect lower effeciency. If you do media blast your plates then passivate them very well before you fire it up. You will need to get that Chromium Oxide layer built back up because you blasted it off. A very thin layer will automatically form due to exposure to the air but it needs to be thicker. I wish the thread was still up but it went down with Nicksrealm. There was alot of good ideas there from the many that contributed ideas to that build.

I will try and hang around here more as soon as time permits. Summer in Alaska is very busy for me. I will be doing the rebuild this winter.

Larry

[j oops]

Thanks for the info H2OPWR. I have a few people here who have been helping me understand these systems. Its down to the finer details that I'm going to have questions. I'm currently looking for some stainless steel that is thin enough for the generator. All I'm finding so far is 1/4 inch thick. Also looking for some HDPE that is 1" thick, that one is going to be hard to find where I'm at.
I will definitley be looking you up when I get home on R&R around Christmas. Curious as to how you keep everything from freezing in the winters.

[H2OPWR]

Thanks for the info H2OPWR. I have a few people here who have been helping me understand these systems. Its down to the finer details that I'm going to have questions. I'm currently looking for some stainless steel that is thin enough for the generator. All I'm finding so far is 1/4 inch thick. Also looking for some HDPE that is 1" thick, that one is going to be hard to find where I'm at.
I will definitley be looking you up when I get home on R&R around Christmas. Curious as to how you keep everything from freezing in the winters.

28% KOH will not freeze. When I was running one on my truck I filled the bubbler with 75% water and 25% Aclohol. It did not freeze either.

Larry

[koya1893]

J OOPS, I don't get here very often but here is my 2 cents worth. My last reactor was huge and I was never able to explore its upper limits because my power supply would not supply all the power it wanted. It is hard to explain but I will try. It was actually 2 seperate reactors hoohed together. Each half had 7 sections. Each section had 14 plates that only measured 2"X4". Each section had a total active area of 104 sq inches. Each half had 1456 sq inches reactive plate surface for a total of 2912 for the entire reactor. I ran out of power at 10 LPM and started blowing breakers in my house. I could unhook half of it and still get an easy 10 LPM from total of 1456 Sq Inches surface area with no heat build up. In fact I went far enough as to insulate the entire reactor trying to make it warm up some. I guess I am trying to answer your question as far as size. If I could make 10 LPM with 1456 sq inches reactive syrface area then you can get 6 LPM from around 1000 total sq inches with ease. You might want to upsize that some as I was only running at 13.1 to 13.3 volts. I was never able to approach 2 volts per section without blowing a breaker. An automotive system will make from 13.8 to 14 volts. My reactor would have run away with itself at high KOH concentrations at that voltage.

One thing you will need to pay extra close attention to will be plate prep. If you don't media blast your plates then my best guess would be to triple the size and expect lower effeciency. If you do media blast your plates then passivate them very well before you fire it up. You will need to get that Chromium Oxide layer built back up because you blasted it off. A very thin layer will automatically form due to exposure to the air but it needs to be thicker. I wish the thread was still up but it went down with Nicksrealm. There was alot of good ideas there from the many that contributed ideas to that build.

I will try and hang around here more as soon as time permits. Summer in Alaska is very busy for me. I will be doing the rebuild this winter.

Larry

The only thing I can add to this while "Master" Larry is talking: is seat down and listen. Nice to read more of your insight larry.

Carte,

Since the "AT" Avionics Technician, gave me some electrical lesson. I got what Gus was trying to learn this "Olde Chief". Lots of flying this week and flight test. Hence I will not tinker for awhile, I will pop in now and then.

[j oops]

Gus just emailed me the drawings for my generator. Thanks Gus.

I really appreciate what you and alot of the guys on this website have done to help out people with their setups and all the money you have burned up finding the best setup.

To get extra fuel mileage and have a cleaner burning vehicle that will also be better for the enviroment is good.

I've got 10 months before this deployment is over. I think I can get the plates made over here. I can order the gaskets made from a place in Florida.
The HDPE, I will have to order and can do those here as well. The rest I will make when I get back to Alaska when I'm done with this deployment.

Thanks everyone for the all the help so far.