Police Interceptors

[228Robinson]

Hello,

I've been tasked with finding ways to decrease my department's spending. I heard about HHO through a buddy and was curious to know whether anyone had installed this technology on a police interceptor. Specifically, for our 2001-2003 P71 Crown Vics. Our ECUs are programmed somewhat differently from stock to deal with the interceptor package and I don't know whether that would be an issue.

If anyone has specific information regarding a kit and whether it would work with our interceptors, it would be greatly appreciated.

[myoldyourgold]

I've been tasked with finding ways to decrease my department's spending. I heard about HHO through a buddy and was curious to know whether anyone had installed this technology on a police interceptor. Specifically, for our 2001-2003 P71 Crown Vics. Our ECUs are programmed somewhat differently from stock to deal with the interceptor package and I don't know whether that would be an issue.

If anyone has specific information regarding a kit and whether it would work with our interceptors, it would be greatly appreciated.

What state are you in? It is possible. The interceptor programing does make it a little different but still doable.

[nst6563]

1 way to find out ;)

If they're willing to subject one as a test vehicle then why not work towards it.

If you succeed with a proof of concept - they may be willing to go forward with it, and then also get the ECU's adjusted.

I do see a couple issues though. The first being maintenance. Just like oil and washer fluid, it must be checked and maintained as well - probably the same interval as every other tankful of gas (just guessing).

Second would be funding. To fund a proof of concept, they'll want hard data of actual improvements on other vehicles. Then to proceed past the proof of concept will require more funding - which as you can guess will be directly proportional to how well the proof of concept performs. If the cost of retrofitting the concept vehicle including ECU adjustments pays for itself in a years worth of gas - there may be a chance. The newer the cruisers are, the better the chances. If the cruisers are going to be retired soon, they'll likely not approve funding for it.

3rd downfall - If the concept does do extremely well, surpasses expectations, and funding is approved and the fleet retrofitted and money is saved...most likely the only thing you'll get is a coffee mug with a handle made of old cuffs and your name written on the side with permanent marker ;)


It really all boils down to politics and dollar signs ;)

[228Robinson]

To be clear, our department can't really do 'funding', per se. Our yearly budget hasn't increased since 2008. I work for a very small department; our fleet consists of 8 cars and a D.A.R.E. trailer. Thus the 2001-2003 range... they're all hand-me-downs from IMPD.

And as I'm the one in charge of finding new ways to save long-term money, it will probably be my car that gets experimented upon.

It's either find a way to save gas, or we're trading in one of the cruisers for bicycles. I do not want this.

[myoldyourgold]

Are you going to do the install and tuning yourself? Again what state are you in?

[nst6563]

Sounds like you don't have much upper end political crap to deal with then. That opens the floodgates for options :)

IMPD ---That's Indy Metro right? What outlying area are you in? I have a buddy up there that may have an interest in helping, he hasn't built his own reactor yet (waiting for me to blow myself up so he can learn from my mistakes haha) but does all his own vehicle work and is interested in the concept.

Do you have any equipment for HHO already? Were you going to build the cell yourself or purchase one pre-made?

[228Robinson]

It'll be me doing the installation and maintenance on this little endeavor. I am in Indiana, yes. I went ahead and ordered a kit from mileageshop.com simply because they have a lifetime warranty and, chances are, it's going to see enough use to warrant replacement. They claim that there's no need to use any ECU chips or any of that stuff, so perhaps I can get this to work with less time spent under the dash in 98 degree weather. $300 I can live with.

[lhazleton]

Good luck with this one. I just looked at their website & things don't add up.
First off, the 1 liter bottle used looks as if the bottom has been cut off, making it less than a liter. Did you notice all of the "smoke" coming out of the pipe? That's a buttload of water vapor that's carrying KOH particles. The 'hydrogen filter' is merely a small tank that does nothing more than return some of the electrolyte to the reactor. If this unit was properly engineered, there wouldn't be any vapor to begin with. 3 LPM of HHO @ 15-20 amps is impossible. Unfortunately, it's a steam machine. They also don't mention that you'll need an EFIE to control the O2 sensor signals.
The plates are cross-sanded. For real performance, media blasting is necessary instead.
They will also sell you 5 ounces of KOH for $10(on sale). I buy 10 pounds for $50 including shipping costs. The reason they claim there is no need for a PWM is simply because the reactor most likely has only 2 or 3 neutral plates per stack and runs a very mild KOH solution. Being in Indiana, what do you suppose is going to happen when the winter temps. drop? The electrolyte will freeze, destroying everything.
This kit doesn't come with, or even mention the need for at least one bubbler/scrubber. Guess what happens when just a small amount of the vapor produced hits aluminum like your throttle body, MAF, etc.?
I've contacted them with some simple questions & am waiting to see their reply.

[lhazleton]

Found one of the pictures of what happens when there's just a small trace of KOH in the Hydroxy entering the engine.

[228Robinson]

Good luck with this one. I just looked at their website & things don't add up.
First off, the 1 liter bottle used looks as if the bottom has been cut off, making it less than a liter. Did you notice all of the "smoke" coming out of the pipe? That's a buttload of water vapor that's carrying KOH particles. The 'hydrogen filter' is merely a small tank that does nothing more than return some of the electrolyte to the reactor. If this unit was properly engineered, there wouldn't be any vapor to begin with. 3 LPM of HHO @ 15-20 amps is impossible. Unfortunately, it's a steam machine. They also don't mention that you'll need an EFIE to control the O2 sensor signals.
The plates are cross-sanded. For real performance, media blasting is necessary instead.
They will also sell you 5 ounces of KOH for $10(on sale). I buy 10 pounds for $50 including shipping costs. The reason they claim there is no need for a PWM is simply because the reactor most likely has only 2 or 3 neutral plates per stack and runs a very mild KOH solution. Being in Indiana, what do you suppose is going to happen when the winter temps. drop? The electrolyte will freeze, destroying everything.
This kit doesn't come with, or even mention the need for at least one bubbler/scrubber. Guess what happens when just a small amount of the vapor produced hits aluminum like your throttle body, MAF, etc.?
I've contacted them with some simple questions & am waiting to see their reply.

Just got off the phone with one of their service reps. (Only took about 20 seconds once I was transferred.) According to their warranty, any damage to the HHO system that's a result of manufacturing/design defect is paid by them. He said they also replace the plates if or when they stop producing hydrogen. He also stated that KOH was a lifetime supply that we could reorder whenever we ran out, free of charge. When I asked about winter temps, I was told that there were instructions in the manual about adding alcohol to keep things functioning down to -10. He also said that if the tank cracked or broke because of temps, that was also covered under the warranty. As for the EFIE, he stated that it wasn't necessary when the ECU is rebooted and calibrated with the HHO running. We'll see.

When I informed him that the system was to be installed on an interceptor, he offered to mail a packet on police vehicle installations. He then offered to refund all but shipping costs if I forwarded a PO so he could write it off as a sample unit.

Once I get the unit, I'll install it and update this thread with the results in case other departments get the same idea.

Correction: He said the electrolytes were lifetime supply, not the KOH. Still new to this. Where do you get yours for cheap?

Correction #2: Now I find out that KOH is electrolyte. I feel special.

[lhazleton]

Again, good luck with it. The more I look at their claims, the more skeptical I become. All I've heard from them was:

Hi Lee ,

Thank you for visiting our website, Mileage Shop.

We received your email inquiry and have forwarded it to the appropriate department.

We try to respond to every email within 2 to 3 hours, but never over 24 hours!

Someone will be in contact with you soon.

Thanks again.

Customer Service,

Mileage Shop

If the reactor puts out anywhere near the claimed amount & will work by merely re-booting the ECU, then they've discovered some 'miracle' type of HHO that won't change the O2 sensors signals.
Sorry for the skepticism, but I've got more than a little experience in this field and really hate seeing people purchase products that don't live up to their claims.
Just do yourself & us a favor: When you receive the unit, take photo's and post all available information. We'll give you any help you may need, especially since this pertains to your job.

[228Robinson]

If the reactor puts out anywhere near the claimed amount & will work by merely re-booting the ECU, then they've discovered some 'miracle' type of HHO that won't change the O2 sensors signals.
Sorry for the skepticism, but I've got more than a little experience in this field and really hate seeing people purchase products that don't live up to their claims.
Just do yourself & us a favor: When you receive the unit, take photo's and post all available information. We'll give you any help you may need, especially since this pertains to your job.

I'll do exactly that. Thanks for the assistance.

[Bhart]

228Robinson, be aware of federal law that prohibits any changes to any emission device, ECU, O2 sensors, etc. Could be a $2500 fine, that could be embarrassing for a police department.

[Quebecker]

228robinson, believe me.

You can trust the people of this forum. If you Believe the sellers of dreams, you might be disappointed.

I bought a HHO kit on e-bay, supposedly one of the best and I had to redo the reactor ....

Best regards

[myoldyourgold]

228Robinson, be aware of federal law that prohibits any changes to any emission device, ECU, O2 sensors, etc. Could be a $2500 fine, that could be embarrassing for a police department.

This is one of the reasons that I asked what state you were in. The federal statute is not actively enforced in most states if at all and is easily defeated if taken to court, but only if the unit works and is actually cleaning up the exhaust and proper disposal of used electrolyte is adhered to. Now if you were in California then the state statute will nail you and makes it harder to defeat in court but not impossible, again as long as it does clean up the exhaust. One problem is that it is illegal to put any device on your car in California that alters the fuel system or exhaust system unless it has CARB approval good or bad. The other problem is which is cheaper the fine or the defense. Now we all know that hot roders and HHO developers and experimenters do this all the time and there is no real inspection other than when you go to get a smog certificate but could cause a problem and you need to be aware of it. I am sure over time all of this will be resolved as manufactures are going to be forced to get there devices EPA and CARB approved which is a real political problem in California and will require some big bucks and possibly a court case or two.


A well designed system and properly tuned vehicle to accept the HHO will have cleaner exhaust and give you a reasonable gain in mileage. A device that is poorly designed will do little but might clean up the exhaust a little over time but could increase the carbon content of the exhaust to start with and increase pollution, if the cars computer starts running rich which happens quite often. I am afraid that a lot of people make this sound much easier than it actually is to get it all right and their sales pitches are way out of the realm of reality in a lot of cases.

You will find good advise here, by people who have had a lot of experience. I and others will be very interested in your progress so please keep us updated.

[hhonewbie]

If your state prohibits such devices discretion is required just uninstall the unit before inspections & re-install after inspection

[lhazleton]

228Robinson>> FYI, it's been 2 days now and I still haven't heard anything from the company regarding the simple questions I asked.:rolleyes:

[koya1893]

My apologies to everyone. I had several minutes to really read this post, having said that, may I asked several question about the Crown Vic. I currently have several Town Car in my area with my system, constantly recording 25-30% increase. One factor you will encounter with any system you install in those vehicle is the solution migrating to the bubbler and filling it with your solution and eventually into your intake. I've fixed that problem:

So entertain my question for my own data collection: Also, send me a PM I have a proposal to make.

year:

Engine:

Trans:

Alt output:

any additional specs about the car will help, but I have an idea about your car. Just want to make sure I have my facts correct.

Start looking for space where you are going to install a cell and send me photos of the location. thank you.

Oh yeah, it is a waist of time to try getting any data from most of the vendors selling the latest and greatest cell. Let's say I have half dozen cell in my backyard from my reverse engineering and lack of support from the vendors. the plates from the cell makes great bracket for my bike system.

Ben

[myoldyourgold]

Ben, I thought you had died or something. It is about time. With your experience this is a perfect match IMHO.

228Robinson, Ben is one of your best chances of success and I would consult with him for sure.

I would suggest you give him what the average speed or type of driving your cars do. I suspect it is stop and go and not a whole lot of high speed cursing. This could help in tuning.

[jannypan]

The interceptor programing does make it a little different but still doable.

[228Robinson]

year: 2001

Engine: 4.6L SOHC Aluminum V8

Trans: 4-speed Heavy Duty Automatic

Alt output: 200 Amp

Battery: 78 Ah


I'm not entirely sure where I'll put it as I don't have the unit in hand. Once I do, I'll let you know.

As for all of the bad reviews against mileageshop.com, I really don't know. They've been nothing but courteous and accommodating to me. They've answered all of my questions (when I called and asked them) and 99% of the negative reviews I've seen on scam/fraud claim sites seem to come from people who never even bought one of their products. One of the site even boasted that the physics of HHO aren't even possible while another said that mileageshop.com along with several other sites are scams... but not their website!

Personally, it sounds like a lot of blind skepticism and competitiveness. I intend to fully document this effort (mostly because I have to) and if I get approval, I'll post full documentation.

I refuse to instantly believe anything anyone says. I have to see definitive proof one way or the other. It's part of the job.

[koya1893]

I'm not entirely sure where I'll put it as I don't have the unit in hand. Once I do, I'll let you know.

As for all of the bad reviews against mileageshop.com, I really don't know. They've been nothing but courteous and accommodating to me. They've answered all of my questions (when I called and asked them) and 99% of the negative reviews I've seen on scam/fraud claim sites seem to come from people who never even bought one of their products. One of the site even boasted that the physics of HHO aren't even possible while another said that mileageshop.com along with several other sites are scams... but not their website!

Personally, it sounds like a lot of blind skepticism and competitiveness. I intend to fully document this effort (mostly because I have to) and if I get approval, I'll post full documentation.

I refuse to instantly believe anything anyone says. I have to see definitive proof one way or the other. It's part of the job.

Like anything we are told about a process, if used properly the benefits are hard to believed. One has to do their own experimenting to even comes close to believe what is being advertise.

The engine in you will be working with is similar in design with the engine in my wifes Town Car with the performance and trans "Delta" between the two. One thing you need to ensure when you finalized your decision is: make sure you are headed the cerrect course when selecting the EFIE for that vehicle. The only one I've had great results with, even on my Harley Davidson is the unit from Fuel Saver (Quad Digital) unit. If you want to get started in getting familiar with them. Make contact with Mike or Bruce from fuel saver they will guide you to the right unit.

As far, as room for any system in those cars. You don't much room, you need to follow remote system and have the main reservoit mounted on the "port" side of the fender in the engine bay. The cells (yes you will need two) small cell mounted in front of rad just behind the bumper. I will take a photo of the system in my wifes car tonight and I'll post.
The cell I am using on her car are two 3" X 11" configured: -NNNNN+ wire seperately. The reservoir you will need will be custom made to fit that car, hence buying one from a vendor and you mounring it will only promote confusion and probably will not fit.

I am in the process of build another system for a mill, this one is configured to my new dual reservoir method and waterless bubbler. the way this is modeled you can duplicate it with material from hardware store with your mechanical ability it should be a "cake walk". Hang in there we will get you a system and keep reading up.

[228Robinson]

I agree 50% with you: EFIE is important.

Instead of "The only one I've had great results with" you probably want to say "The only one I've used...".

You know that my systems are far superior than the one you try to promote.

This week I will have ready one Quad Digital, 100% compatible with the one above, and cheaper. What will you say after that?

What happens if the online kit shows an increase without a $200 chip at all?

[koya1893]

I agree 50% with you: EFIE is important.

Instead of "The only one I've had great results with" you probably want to say "The only one I've used...".

You know that my systems are far superior than the one you try to promote.

This week I will have ready one Quad Digital, 100% compatible with the one above, and cheaper. What will you say after that?

Okay first let me say that, this is the “Old Salty” chief talking. What do I say to that? Who in the F&&& are you to just pop in here probably collecting data from those who are willing to share their experiment results and use them for your own gain. I started a post specifically about an EFIE I would like someone to develop for me to finalize my motorcycle system. Did you bother reading that and offer some help. If your EFIE’s are so superior, COM me one and I’ll test it for you. I have enough clients, some I even installed a system so they can cut their fuel bill from what they are saving with HHO. Oh yeah, it was a COM model. As far, as your system superior than mine, okay COM me one of your system and test that one as well.
The market for this process is so vast for everyone to benefit from; I see nothing in this forum you had any part of contributing to assisting others to achieve their goal in building a cell. But you keep popping in here now and then and come up with “I agree 50% with you: EFIE is important”.
And as far, as this comment of yours, I can only take that your EFIE’s are part of the junk file I have from those I’ve used and tested and did not work or did were not efficient to even perform their basic function (increase or decrease voltage signal), Hence the one I have been getting from Fuel Saver is the only one I use. So when I install one on a client’s car after hours or reading wires I wanted to make sure the results are to my liking. “Instead of "The only one I've had great results with" you probably want to say "The only one I've used...".
Guys like you I some time questioned why I even bother popping in here to share the result from my hours and the countless $$ I spent experimenting so I have something to add to a “post”.
If you are going to reside in here, do so on regular basis and offer something. You can start buy telling me you can design an EFIE (digital) to handle two O2 (analog) with starting mv adjustment of “Zero”. Meaning I can add as low as 5mv to the signal wire of any analog O2. You offer me a solution to that then I will consider your presence in here valuable. Right now you feel like a “pebble” in my shoe after “hell week”. I am sure you can correlate those terms to special group.

[koya1893]

What happens if the online kit shows an increase without a $200 chip at all?

Better get some documentation and a BOM (Bill of Material) on the system. As of right now, the only electronics that will yield you that much gain is an FIC which you can control all the parameters the ECU uses to determined AFR (that's a 600.00 unit at min). The EFIE is a good start, some even played with MAF/MAP enhancers but with little success and it is dagereous for some vihecles (can leaned the engine too lean). Your average EFIE are 150.00 (those with proven results and outstanding support).

[228Robinson]

I'll be documenting the entire process from pre-install gas mileage on a set road for a set distance and speed all the way through performance results after 2 weeks. If a simply installed $300 kit increases fuel efficiency by even 20%, it will almost certainly be put into use with the other 7 cars. If we can get a few more percent increase by playing with the ECU settings, then we probably won't as it won't be time or cost-effective.

I can't spend 4 months learning enough about HHO to tune and custom build systems for our cars. That's too much time and money that we don't have.

[228Robinson]

You did not test any of my systems, but this is not the point. You are promoting one vendor as THE BEST. Well, I know what that system does, at the component level. Keep using that, I will offer a cheaper solution and 100% compatible with your promoted system to other users. I do not see a problem with this.

From where I'm sitting, YOU are the problem. You brought NOTHING to the discussion except for your shameless self-plugging of apparently unknown products.

And you attack one of the people actually providing useful information. No sir, you are the problem. You are a troll. You go to threads just to promote yourself with no regard to the content of the thread.

Where I come from, we tell people like you to f*** off.

[koya1893]

As I mentioned I will post a sample of what I found effective to these type of vehicles.

I am short of time to send this. I am sure you can imagine the sequence. The primary reservoir is filled, the solution will migrate to the reservoir mounted in front of the bumper. When that is filled up the solution will migrate to the cells, hence flooding them. the level of the cell is dictated by the level of the primary reservoir. I like this set up because the solution in the secondary reservoir is constantly cool from the initial temp from sitting over night or the present condition. The warm solution from the cells as the splits the water will slowly migrate to the secondary reservoir. Hence you will have a cool running system. both reservoir have a 20-35 degree "delta" between the two. The secondary being the coolest of the two.
The rest of the photos should explain.

All of this is what I meant custom application. As far, as the $300.00 per unit. Save it, I will send you a material list for the reservoir, the tubing, electrical to wire the cells. The EFIE you can get from Fuel saver, I recommend reading up on how to initially install the EFIE and adjustment. The wiring diagram Mike or Bruce will send you. If I find extra time I will take a photo where the wires are, once you've identified those guys you are home free. I am afraid you will need to do some work on tuning the system. But if you return here with your data I am sure someone or I will assist you. This has yield my wife 45% increase in mix driving.

I'll send you a PM with all the material and my offer to you. Enjoy, you are on your way being converted.

This is AMERICA it was built helping others.

[koya1893]

Well, I am an engineer, not a troll. But who cares?

Good luck with your project! I do not promote myself, I inform you. I have a list called top 100, with people getting more than 100% increased MPG.

You are right, why am I spending my time here?... Thank you for your wishes!
My item is ready, tested, and performs as expected.

Before I add to the fire I started with my reply several pages back, I would like to apologies to everyone for my behavior. Now back to your list of people or system with 100% increase, this is what I am talking about. You express these great result, as in this list. My question to, is that a third party list? Do you have data to support that list? If so, share it shipmate, many of us in here have spent countless hours experimenting to find an efficient way to built a cell and then share our findings.

Back to your EFIE, I am sure in your experienced your EFIE is superior. The EFIE is but a small part of the equation of a efficient system, the CELL it self will dictate how efficient the entire system. One cannot just install an EFIE, superior they may be, it needs to match up with an efficient cell.

If you have data to support that list, I am asking you to share it and if your EFIEs are that superior. I will buy one to test and if they perform as advertise and they can save my clients $$ I will consider making them part of my system. Just to show you my intention, post the site where they are sold. If it does not perform as advertise are you will to refund my money 100% much like the vendor for Volo does. I asked this because I have three F-150 I am building a system for, yes they have the same 4.6 liter in the Trooper car. I've put together a system for these trucks which gain popularity in my area, hence I don't advertise my system. My clients are my testimonial.

[228Robinson]

As I mentioned I will post a sample of what I found effective to these type of vehicles.

I am short of time to send this. I am sure you can imagine the sequence. The primary reservoir is filled, the solution will migrate to the reservoir mounted in front of the bumper. When that is filled up the solution will migrate to the cells, hence flooding them. the level of the cell is dictated by the level of the primary reservoir. I like this set up because the solution in the secondary reservoir is constantly cool from the initial temp from sitting over night or the present condition. The warm solution from the cells as the splits the water will slowly migrate to the secondary reservoir. Hence you will have a cool running system. both reservoir have a 20-35 degree "delta" between the two. The secondary being the coolest of the two.
The rest of the photos should explain.

All of this is what I meant custom application. As far, as the $300.00 per unit. Save it, I will send you a material list for the reservoir, the tubing, electrical to wire the cells. The EFIE you can get from Fuel saver, I recommend reading up on how to initially install the EFIE and adjustment. The wiring diagram Mike or Bruce will send you. If I find extra time I will take a photo where the wires are, once you've identified those guys you are home free. I am afraid you will need to do some work on tuning the system. But if you return here with your data I am sure someone or I will assist you. This has yield my wife 45% increase in mix driving.

I'll send you a PM with all the material and my offer to you. Enjoy, you are on your way being converted.

This is AMERICA it was built helping others.

The issue is that I cannot spend days or weeks customizing and tuning. I don't get paid for overtime. If the choice is between a $300 bolt-on unit that gets a 15% increase and a custom built that takes 20 hours to build, install, and tune for a 25% increase, we have to take the bolt-on option. I can't spend that kind of time with one of our cars down. Especially if the custom job damages the car somehow. If that happens, there's no warranty. With the bolt-on kit, there is.

That's what this boils down to: ready-to-install consumer product vs custom build. We can't do a custom build at this time.

[myoldyourgold]

This is going to be a very interesting experiment at least in my opinion. I for one will be following this with very great interest. We have what looks like a fairly large manufacture with a patent pending reactor that is offering a life time warranty, life time KOH and claiming up to 60% increase in mpg for $300. I have no experience with this manufacture and surly hope all of this turns out exactly as stated but it does raise some red flags. The old adage of to good to be true comes to mind. With no electronics in the kit to help with the ECU which is programmed to work against you I just can not see 60% increase and you could end up possibly with no increase or worse. If you read through the warranty you find this section on mileage.


“The Mileage Shop Hydrogen generator System Performance figures of improved fuel efficiency posted on our website are based on actual test vehicles, or our customers testimonials. Results were based on different vehicles which have electronic fuel injection or standard combustion/carburetor engines, both gasoline and diesel models. Individual results can vary considerably due to a variety of factors including but not limited to altitude, humidity, barometric pressure, outside temperature, vehicle age, and state of vehicle tune, vehicles charging system at a constant 13.8 volts, vehicle manufacturer engine tolerances, vehicle modifications, chassis, engine and quality of the installation. Because the Mileage Shop has no control over these varibles we cannot make any guarantees regarding actual performance results.”

This could mean just about anything from no gain or just gains reported by customers that could have made honest mistakes or ???.

The free KOH costs $4.95 which is supposed to be the cost of shipping one small bottle. I suspect they ship it for less cost to them and you are actually paying for the KOH. Just a guess though.

If you read in their how it works section you will find this statement:


“It is common knowledge that only about 30% of the fuel (gas or diesel) that you put in your vehicles gas tank is not burned during the engines combustion process. Diesel engines will expell the unburned fuel directly out of the vehicles exhaust pipe. Gasoline engines use a catalytic converter, so that the wasted fuel can be re-burned.”

I had to laugh at 70% going out the tail pipe. In fact, any modern engine in good condition and at normal operating temperature emits only about 1 - 2% of the input fuel as unburnt hydrocarbons, even before passing through the catalyst. There are well documented studies to confirm this and is consistent for all engine types. Only engines that are very old (say more than 50 years) or in serious need of maintenance/adjustment would waste anything like 15 - 20% of their fuel in this way.

When you put all this and more (like the plate design) that I do not have time to go into you could draw the conclusion that you might be wasting your time on a kit from this manufacture. I could be wrong and have had no experience with this product to able to say for sure and surly hope I am wrong.

[koya1893]

1. We started with the product from fuelsaver claimed to be the best. Attached is a picture with a product performing 100% like that, for a better price. To keep the cost down, the 2.5V offset circuit for Dodge was removed. I can accept your terms to test this item, since I sell it direct. I will put it on ebay (right now I just started production so I have only a couple of samples available) or PM me if you want one.

2. The list (top 100) is made by one of my dealers. Do not expect do get these savings with the item above. All the customers are using this item:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Tuning-101-Control-Center-AFR-HHO-Hydrogen-Generators-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3a628ad1ceQQitemZ25076 1368014QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries

You can contact the dealer for more details or questions. I do not expect him to agree with your conditions, but you can try. I can not sell you this item, but it is designed and made by me.

Unless you are willing to COM me one unit, I cannot add these EFIE to my system. For the price of one I can get three from Fuel Saver. What are the adjustment parameters? I need an EFIE to handle two narrow band with adjustment starting from "Zero" to add to the signal wire voltage in the incriment of 5-10mv.

[koya1893]

As I said, the digital quad unit 100% equivalent the one you named is going to be cheaper than the one from fuelsaver. The other one (from the dealer) has a price according to the performance and complexity.

Your explanation is not good enough for me:



What kind of unit is this? Analog and digital? Dual analog? Or dual digital?
Starting from zero? Only the analogs start from zero.
If it is digital, it starts from 450mV and it goes down to almost zero.

So, be more specific or (better) give the link to the product you are not happy with it, and the desired range (zero to what maximum value).

The increments are in direct relationship with the range. The potentiometer has 25 turns, so you get 125mV range for 25 turns, 5mV each, and so on, do the math.


My apologies for not being clear, giving me those parameters helped to describe what I need to finalize the system for my bike. The bike has two oxygen sensors (narrow band); I would like to increase the signal wire voltage at 5mv increments. Hence, by your explanation these O2 are analog. The bottom line, I would like to have an EFIE (analog) to handle two O2 to increase the signal voltage from 450mv to 455-600mv.

May I recommend a new thread to discuss EFIE.

[228Robinson]

I answered in your EFIE thread.
I am out of this topic, since I've got some rude replies.

You did get some rude replies for starting an argument without valid reason. That's how the world works. Kick someone in the shin and they will probably pop you one on the nose. Common sense.

[228Robinson]

I just received the kit today. 8 days after ordering. The unit came in a standard box with a "Fragile - Handle with care" sticker.

The zip includes a pdf of the manual. Below are pics of the items that came with the kit.

As my cruiser is on the line, please read the manual fully and look closely if you want to give recommendations. Thank you all for your time.

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/Gen.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/Gen2.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/Gen3.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/Gen4.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/Gen5.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/tanks.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/bubblerscrubber.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/wires.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/wires2.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/wires3.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/misc.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/elec2.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/elec1.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/ammeter.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/koh1.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/koh2.jpg

Manual - http://www.mediafire.com/file/e9a6nha16ak1r5n/Manual.pdf

[myoldyourgold]

Is this the same kit? Who really makes this kit? Looks the same to me. This again is another retailer with more hype than fact.


cell Dimension: 6.25" x 5.25" x 1.75"

Plate Surface Area: 260+ sq. inches, 316L stainless steel, sanded/scored

Number of Cells: 6

Performance: up to 3 liters/minute , 180 liters/hour

MMW Rating: 7.00+

Water Tank Size: 1.5 Quart Tank 5.9" x 7.74" x 3.62"



Engines: 1.0 - 4.0 Liters, Gasoline or Diesel



Application: Cars, Small Pickups, Gas/Diesel, SUV and Vans

Average Fuel Savings: up to 35%+




http://www.bettermpgtoday.com/apps/webstore/products/show/2443755

[228Robinson]

You are so funny. I hope one day you will realize why.

I don't recall coming into a thread you started just to start an argument with another member. I hope that one day, you realize how to behave like an adult.

[228Robinson]

Is this the same kit? Who really makes this kit? Looks the same to me. This again is another retailer with more hype than fact.



http://www.bettermpgtoday.com/apps/webstore/products/show/2443755

Looks similar, but some of it is different, I think. That one looks like it was made in a basement and comes with an extremely limited 2 year warranty.

Doesn't look like it includes KOH or ammeter. No phone number or retail location, either. That looks shady. But if you're going to scam someone, why have a retail store where any disgruntled customer can come in and cause trouble?

[myoldyourgold]

Doesn't look like it includes KOH or ammeter. No phone number or retail location, either. That looks shady. But if you're going to scam someone, why have a retail store where any disgruntled customer can come in and cause trouble?


You could be right but if you look at the bracket and case closely you will see they are the same. Those pieces are either injection molded or vacuum formed and require some capitol investment recovered in production numbers. What ever the case the old adage is you can fool some of the people some of the time but not all the people all the time. Unfortunately these guys could be taking advantage of the the "some" and just refunding money to a few. At least that is how a lot of them work. These guys could be very different I surly do not know. But like you say it looks fishy.

I will read the manual you posted when I have time and make some commits. By just glancing at it I am sure there will be some questions.

Be careful follow all the safety procedures. I do not remember seeing any flashback arrestor or flash pot in the kit. Safety should be # 1 for any commercial product or it will give this industry a bad name.

Check this out it just happened yesterday:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-explosion-20110811,0,4604686.story

http://www.bhcourier.com/article/Local/Local/Two_People_Remain_Hospitalized_Following_Sylmar_Ex plosion/79255

http://www.fox40.com/news/headlines/ktla-lake-view-terrace-explosion,0,4361527.story

It is idiots like this who should know better that is going to ruin it for everyone especially since Government is just looking for an excuse to stick its big foot into things. Need I say again everyone be careful and follow all safety rules.

[koya1893]

I just received the kit today. 8 days after ordering. The unit came in a standard box with a "Fragile - Handle with care" sticker.

The zip includes a pdf of the manual. Below are pics of the items that came with the kit.

As my cruiser is on the line, please read the manual fully and look closely if you want to give recommendations. Thank you all for your time.

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/Gen.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/Gen2.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/Gen3.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/Gen4.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/Gen5.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/tanks.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/bubblerscrubber.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/wires.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/wires2.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/wires3.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/misc.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/elec2.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/elec1.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/ammeter.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/koh1.jpg
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/koh2.jpg

Manual - http://www.mediafire.com/file/e9a6nha16ak1r5n/Manual.pdf

Okay, I had some down time last night and had few minutes to look over the photos in the links. Since, I have a pretty good idea how you car is designed for lack of room to add anything. You'll need to be innovative to mount the unit,
Reservoir; Okay from the looks of the size of it, probably at best a two qt capacity, then again at my ages the eyes are not their best anymore. So I could mistaken. If not, expect your system to ge hot before you even get to stop sign close to you and your solution turning brown almost to chocolate mixture. That's due over amps to the cell.

The filter; well I am bias to my designed so I can't comment on it since I don't know what type of material being used to filter the gar.

The amp meter seems to be a focal point verifying the quality of the system and the $$ was well spent. Sorry, 5.00 item at Harbor Freight. The KOH, well about the same. Although the life time supply is not something I would bank on as another went spent money. At best once your system is up and running, every 3K (oil change time) you would flush the system and induce new solution. That's my protocol on the system installed locally.

With the stop and go driving I've come to accept you do. The key factor to your system being efficient to achieved the claim by the vendor. That's keeping that cell cool around 100-110 degree. With that small reservoir, it will be hard. In the winter, that is if you don't mix your solution to 28% KOH. It will freeze faster.

These are a few things I've discovered and learned from here. I did not see any tubing to be used to plumb the system. Review the photos I posted of the Town car, the fender area is the only loaction I can think of where you can install a reservoir, but with the reservoir you received it might git there. A round reservoir would be a better application the cavity will accept a round shape bottle of some sort.

Where you port the gas is another factor, measure 3" from where the intake tube is clamp the TB. That's where I recommend you port the gar.

[228Robinson]

Just finished installing. Yes, the 2 hour install thing is absolute bull, but that was expected. Took 8 hours, actually. None of it difficult, just time consuming due to the double and triple checks on fittings and such.

At this moment, I am sitting in the car waiting for the electrical to discharge before re-calibrating the computer. The system produces what looks to be a fairly constant stream of gas. Did a test to be sure that it was HHO... outlet hose into ziploc baggie, fire on a long stick. It's either HHO or uncharacteristically explosive steam.

All of the electronics work as they should; safety switch turns the system on and off once the ignition is on and the layout of the containers is somewhat nice, from my point of view. The unit uses the reservoir as a scrubber then sends the gas to the actual scrubber. I've attached pictures of the install and will upload a short video of the generator functioning later.

So far, everything seems to be working as advertised, though I understand it will take up to 1,000 miles to break in the generator. Out of curiosity, I smelled the exhaust while it was running. No exhaust smell.

Also, the reservoir is 3 qts, the unit reached maybe 90 degrees after running for 45 minutes, and after removing the grill lights, I had plenty of room for the install. I'll find a way to remount those later.

The pics are in the album link - http://s140.photobucket.com/albums/r24/IC_Jag/HHO/

Time to take it onto the highway for a bit of calibration.

[228Robinson]

The amp meter seems to be a focal point verifying the quality of the system and the $$ was well spent. Sorry, 5.00 item at Harbor Freight.

The one that came with this appears to be rather more expensive than $5.

http://www.gochargeit.com/etools/xksunlimited/cart.htm?add+SW82310

[228Robinson]

So far, no issues. 100 miles down, 900 to go before break-in period is finished.

Starting (pre-HHO) MPG was 14.8. Using the same gas station and driving 30 miles interstate, 5 miles in-town. Same route will be used once a week until 2,000 miles traveled.

[myoldyourgold]

Thank you Sir for keeping us updated. I am wondering why the 2000 mile brake in period. I can only assume the plates are going through a conditioning process similar to passivation and could be creating some amounts of CR-6 in the process. I would make sure the electrolyte is disposed properly if this is the case. Even though I have not done the tests yet I am quite confident that this is another good reason to passivate media blasted plates especially. But I could be wrong and will do the test to confirm it. Just takes time and $$ LOL. Thanks again 228Robinson.

[228Robinson]

The instructions only call for a 1000 mile break in, but I intend to continue documenting for 1000 miles past that for record's sake.

Another update, though, the baseline route appears to have yielded an increase in mpg to 19.2. This may be a fluke and I'll be rerunning the test route tomorrow to confirm/deny the results so far.

[myoldyourgold]

That sounds good so far. I hope it stays and even gets better. I would suggest that you add a lever switch on the throttle so it turns off the reactor at idle. This does two things. It helps the computer remain on the lean side of the maps and not go rich over time. It also does not use any HP at idle to run the reactor when it is not needed saving more fuel. It is similar to some AC systems that go on and off at idle to save fuel.

[Quebecker]

That sounds good so far. I hope it stays and even gets better. I would suggest that you add a lever switch on the throttle so it turns off the reactor at idle. This does two things. It helps the computer remain on the lean side of the maps and not go rich over time. It also does not use any HP at idle to run the reactor when it is not needed saving more fuel. It is similar to some AC systems that go on and off at idle to save fuel.

Hi,

This is the kind of thing I was considering for my installation. What kind of level switch and where can I get it ?

thanks

[myoldyourgold]

Just about any electrical supply store will carry them. Radio Shack etc. This is not exactly like the one I use but similar.

[228Robinson]

That sounds good so far. I hope it stays and even gets better. I would suggest that you add a lever switch on the throttle so it turns off the reactor at idle. This does two things. It helps the computer remain on the lean side of the maps and not go rich over time. It also does not use any HP at idle to run the reactor when it is not needed saving more fuel. It is similar to some AC systems that go on and off at idle to save fuel.

I'll definitely put that on the list of things to try after break-in.

Just finished filling up and checking the system after re-running the route. 18.9mpg. I'm very surprised and can't help but think there's something not quite right.

[Quebecker]

Excuse my lack of knowledge in mechanics but where do I can install this kind of switch? Where is the throttle?

[myoldyourgold]

There are two places I have installed them. One is on the throttle body. There is usually a leaver there that one can have operate the switch if mounted in the right spot. The other is in the car attached to the throttle/accelerator peddle similar to the brake switch. You have to engineer your own bracket to hold the switch so when the accelerator peddle is off the switch is depressed. It takes a little engineering but is not that complicated because I have done it. LOL Each car is slightly different so it would be hard to come up with a universal bracket that fits all makes and models. It might be possible but not by me. The best solution for this is to have it in the PWM.

[Quebecker]

There are two places I have installed them. One is on the throttle body. There is usually a leaver there that one can have operate the switch if mounted in the right spot. The other is in the car attached to the throttle/accelerator peddle similar to the brake switch. You have to engineer your own bracket to hold the switch so when the accelerator peddle is off the switch is depressed. It takes a little engineering but is not that complicated because I have done it. LOL Each car is slightly different so it would be hard to come up with a universal bracket that fits all makes and models. It might be possible but not by me. The best solution for this is to have it in the PWM.

Hi Carter,

I would like to know where is the level switch in the circuit diagram of an installation ?

Specifically, is the switch only stops the reactor or is stops the reactor, the EFIE and CCPWM ? If the level switch stops the EFIE, it therefore means that it takes (EFIE) 1 minute before working again when power returns ?

Thanks

[myoldyourgold]

I think we should open a new thread for this discussion. I will start one.

[228Robinson]

Week 3 test:

Standard route yielded an MPG of 16.5
Original MPG was 14.8

750 miles into the 1000 mile break in period.

Called tech support about the decrease in mileage. I was told that the break in period removes impurities from the plates and those impurities would, without flushing the system, reduce the gains to almost zero. Once the break in period is finished, the gains should return and with electrolyte adjustment, possibly increase. This makes sense to me.

[myoldyourgold]

I would be interested in knowing if there has been any change in amps, heat or the volume of HHO during the brake in.
Has your electrolyte changed color and if so what color? How much water have you added so far? Can you check the specific gravity of the electrolyte? Sorry for all the questions but this will help explain possible other reasons for loss/change of MPG.

Thank you for keeping us updated.

[228Robinson]

I would be interested in knowing if there has been any change in amps, heat or the volume of HHO during the brake in.
Has your electrolyte changed color and if so what color? How much water have you added so far? Can you check the specific gravity of the electrolyte? Sorry for all the questions but this will help explain possible other reasons for loss/change of MPG.

Thank you for keeping us updated.

All good questions and ones I didn't think to post.

Amps saw a steady increase from last week's 15 amps to 17-18 amps. Twice it has gone over that, but both times the amperage was brought down by adding small amounts of plain distilled water to dilute the mixture.

Heat on the unit still feels only fairly warm after extended use. I haven't been measuring HHO output, but the output line always looks mostly filled with moving gas when the unit is running.

After the initial fill of 3 quarts, I have added less than 2 cups of distilled water and 3 cups of mixed solution.

The solution in the reservoir remains clear and without distinct coloring. The sponge in the scrubber has taken a light green tint when exposed to a flashlight.

I don't know how to check the gravity of the electrolyte.

[myoldyourgold]

Amps saw a steady increase from last week's 15 amps to 17-18 amps. Twice it has gone over that, but both times the amperage was brought down by adding small amounts of plain distilled water to dilute the mixture.

Heat on the unit still feels only fairly warm after extended use. I haven't been measuring HHO output, but the output line always looks mostly filled with moving gas when the unit is running.

After the initial fill of 3 quarts, I have added less than 2 cups of distilled water and 3 cups of mixed solution.

The solution in the reservoir remains clear and without distinct coloring. The sponge in the scrubber has taken a light green tint when exposed to a flashlight.

I don't know how to check the gravity of the electrolyte.

The reason I am taking such interest in this project is to try and make sure every thing that is possible is done to show a gain in MPG even with a kit that might not be the most desirable but still very practical. Thanks again for the information.

Here is some things to consider. Number one on the list is that the electrolyte could be way off the chart and causing the loss in MPG. You need to invest in a Hydrometer. This is a cheap devise that will give you accurate enough measurement of the electrolyte concentration. These are available at some automotive stores for testing batteries or at Bear and Wine making supply stores. If buying from a bear and wine store make sure it has a specific gravity scale on it and not just a Brix scale. If buying a automotive one make sure it is has a specific gravity scale with numbers and not with just charged or bad or red green orange etc. The bear/wine one will only measure up to 1.19 but should be enough for your job except during the winter when you might need to go to a 28% KOH mixture but are cheap and accurate. KOH or NaOH does not get used up but hopefully what does get out of the reservoir gets trapped in the bubbler which really should not be to much if you do not have a steam machine. Now knowing this you can see just adding water should be sufficient for quite a while unless you have a very small reservoir. You can also see that when adding electrolyte you need to know what the concentration is actually in the reservoir in order not to add to much or not enough. If the mixture is on the rich side amps go up, heat goes up and more HHO is produced. To little the reverse. With out any electronics to control the computer it then might, based on just the electrolyte concentration, decide to run richer over time. Without a method to control what the computer wants to do you must control what the sensors are sensing more accurately in order to see a gain and maintain it. Even though a brake in period will have a little to do with gain it will be nothing like controlling the system and making sure the computer is not receiving information that makes it want to go to the rich side of the maps or worse. After all of that I hope you see that electrolyte concentration is important because it will control the volume of HHO which will affect what the sensors sense and possibly make the computer do something that will negate the gain.

Harbor freight sells a cheap inferred thermometer. I think this is a necessary tool for anyone trying to maintain gain or diagnose any problem. The more expensive one they sell would even be better because is goes high enough to measure header temperature and still does not brake the bank.

More things to consider will be the amount of electrolyte that is in the system I have a feeling it is not enough in the kit you are using. More is better in this case to maintain a more consistent temperature/output without to much trouble (having to measure the electrolyte each time you add water). This can only be determined with the right equipment though. (Hydrometer, and Thermometer)

Bottom line the increase in amps is because of an increase in electrolyte concentration in my opinon. Control that and the gains should come back into line by resetting the computer which I would be doing every week for the first month anyway. Adding a switch to turn off the system at idle will also help in keeping the gains.

Thanks again for the update

[228Robinson]

Apologies for the delayed post. It's been a busy 2 weeks. I'll definitely get a hydrometer, but for now, winging it seems to be working.

After the break-in flush failed to produce any obvious contaminants in the waste water, I gave tech support another call. They stated that except for a bit of a haze or milky color, there shouldn't be any huge color difference. Mistake on my part.

Last week (Week 3) saw a dramatic decrease down to 14.5 mpg. That was my fault, too. Prior to calling tech support again, I reflushed the system and must have botched something. Amperage dropped to about 3 amps and output was hardly a trickle. Checked all of the connections, relay, and circuit breaker. Circuit breaker had water buildup that was corroding the contacts. Dried that out and sealed it with Permatex since the stock seal wasn't cutting it.

Still couldn't get a good output, so I flushed it again. Somehow (probably because I flushed it through the output hose last time) it worked. As of 4 days ago, the output is now resting at 17 amps and producing a heavy stream of HHO. Retested to make sure it wasn't steam. The report scared the neighbors. (Mwuahahaha)

As of yesterday, my mileage has increased to 21.4 mpg on the test route.
So Week 4:
MPG: 21.4
Generator Heat: Warm to the touch. Approx 95 degrees Fahrenheit.
HHO Output: Very significant. If you have a way to get an accurate measurement of this, I'm all ears.

[myoldyourgold]

Thanks again for the up date. 21.4 mpg is great for mixed driving. I will keep watching. To measure your output try a 1 litter bottle full of water in a bucket of water upside down and use the HHO to pump out the water while timing it. Crude but will give you a rough idea. An endometer would be a lot better but requires you building one. There is lots of youtube videos showing you how to measure HHO. My guess is at 17 amps it is around 1 liter per minute or less.

[228Robinson]

Performed a quick flow test yesterday. Used a 1 gallon jug then converted to liters. At 17 amps and with a solution that seems to be at well under the 20% mark (got a hydrometer, too), I'm producing 1.07 liters per minute. I've upped the solution and am now drawing about 20 amps, but the solution is still barely registering. On that note, I'm almost out of electrolyte.

[myoldyourgold]

Performed a quick flow test yesterday. Used a 1 gallon jug then converted to liters. At 17 amps and with a solution that seems to be at well under the 20% mark (got a hydrometer, too), I'm producing 1.07 liters per minute. I've upped the solution and am now drawing about 20 amps, but the solution is still barely registering. On that note, I'm almost out of electrolyte.

Excellent, that is a very realistic figure. Now when you take all the moisture out of that you will have what it actually is making but for our purposes that measurement is a good one. If you put to much more HHO in the computer will start working against you and you will need an EFIE. The idea is to find the max you can put in without upsetting the ECU. If the mileage drops off reboot the ECU and dilute the electrolyte a little. Small steps here and you will find the sweet spot or plan on investing in an EFIE and increasing your mileage even more.

[Avalanche1]

I know this is an old thread but curious how this worked out for the police department. Thought maybe he would get a new pot email and tell us more.
I am considering this one but will probably build from what little I have read here.

[myoldyourgold]

I have had some communication with the officer and he no longer is with the department due to the poor economy and cut backs. He has no further information and can not get any. It is a shame because some reliable data could have been gotten. It makes you wonder.........

[Avalanche1]

Well I believe I will be the one to document this brand. At that price I have to try. I would like to build but I travel so much that it's not really possible. I drive 2000-4000 miles a month so this be great data. How much Koh would you think I would burn thru each month.

[228Robinson]

I'm back. Bought the old interceptor from the department since they were retiring her. They even left the kit mostly installed. The experiments will continue. Getting ready to mix the electrolyte solution once more.

[myoldyourgold]

Thank you Sir. Will be waiting for your report. I am glad that you were able to do that and I am sure all will appreciate your contribution.