What wrong with my reactor :-(

[Quebecker]

Hi,

Could you help me please and give me your opinion !!!!


I followed all the advice I was recommended

reactor with 2 stacks (-NNNNNN+NNNNNN-)
my plates are SS316L and media blasted
the holes (input and output) are insulates with "red super glue" (something like crazy glue)
plates were clean with aceton, passivate with citric acid (10%) and always handle with glove


This picture is from spare plate
http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/6684/p7180004e.jpg
Active area with gasket and insulate: ± 17.5 square inches

Each endplate have 1 input hole and 1 output hole - Endplate are in EPDM 1/2"

Electrolyte 18% -> distilled water "by steam" with NaOH

Test #1 (with power supply)
My voltage is: 11.43 volts (1.77 volts per cell - each individually measured)

When I start the reactor, the production is very minimal. Just a bubble by two seconds for 15 - 20 secondes. Suddenly, the production becomes hyperactive "wow!" for 3-4 seconds and then everything returns as originally for 15-20 seconds.

Here is a video of the poor production
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gnxgiOi_Ns


Test #2 (with my car)
My voltage is: 14.3 volts (2 volts per cell - each individually measured)

When I start the reactor, the production is minimal. 1 or 2 bubbles by second. Suddenly, the production becomes hyperactive "wow! really impressive" for 4-5 seconds and then everything returns as originally.


IMPORTANT
1) I have reversed the position of the central plate "+". So the input hole of the central plate is to left in contrast to all other plates that the inputs holes are to the right.
2) In my plates, the input hole are in the right side (bottom) and in my endplates, the input holes are in the center (bottow also) "see video"



What wrong ??

The product I use for insulte the hole ?
The orientation of my centrale plate (+) ?
Me ?

Could you help me, I am desperate :eek:

Thank in advance

[myoldyourgold]

When I start the reactor, the production is minimal. 1 or 2 bubbles by second. Suddenly, the production becomes hyperactive "wow! really impressive" for 4-5 seconds and then everything returns as originally.

I suspect your biggest problem is the slip on connections. Soon after it starts to draw some amps one or more of the connections are loosening up. You really need to have a bolt on connection. Try pinching the connections with pliers when they are connected. Check if there is a hot one. It only takes one loose connection. I have no faith in the that type of connector especially when the spade is tapered like yours.

The other problem I see is that you are running in a flooded condition all the time. This could be a result of a loose connection though and not enough time for the gas to build any pressure on top. The color of the plate is good and even. I would have insulated a little more around the holes. Half inch around the hole is good.

[Quebecker]

I'll check it tonight

One thing I forgot to mention, the amperage is still low (only 2-3 amps). Does it can make a better picture of the problem ?

[nst6563]

I've just re-assembled my cell Friday afternoon and it's been running constant ever since. I've only been putting 2A-3A through it and I've been getting easily at least twice that.

After listening to myoldyourgold's advice he's given me, I'd have to agree on what he suggested. You're plates are huge compared to mine (I have 3"x5" with 1/4" gaskets) so I would think you should be getting more production than mine.

If all else fails, try soldering those crimp connectors to the wires themselves. If that doesn't help, try soldering the connector to the plates.

[Quebecker]

This afternoon, during my lunch time, I make some verifications....

- During the night, the electrolyte become yellow/brown ...

- I have pinching the connections with pliers when they are connected.

- I have check my wires and no one is hot.

- I removed all the wires that could be problematic and I used the bare minimum of wiring.


Always the same result .... :(
It seems that the liquid want not circulate :confused:

[myoldyourgold]

This afternoon, during my lunch time, I make some verifications....

- During the night, the electrolyte become yellow/brown ...

- I have pinching the connections with pliers when they are connected.

- I have check my wires and no one is hot.

- I removed all the wires that could be problematic and I used the bare minimum of wiring.


Always the same result ....
It seems that the liquid want not circulate

It is hard to give you an accurate solution to your problem without all the information and not being there to make some tests.

If you think there is no circulation this could be a problem. Please let me know exactly how your reactor is set up. Number of plates, where the holes are located, what type of end plates and where the input ports and exit ports are located on the end plate. Is this how your setup is. -nnnnn+nnnnn- or ?

You can check for blockages in the system by blowing in the input port on one side and plugging the exit on the same (if you have exit ports on both sides) side to see if makes it all the way through. If you have the center plate with no holes then you will need to disassemble to check for a blockage.

The plate pictured shows that everything is working OK. Which plate in the reactor is this picture of?

Have you checked to see that all plates are getting the same voltage? You might have a short somewhere. Check each pair to make sure there is no short.

[Quebecker]

It is hard to give you an accurate solution to your problem without all the information and not being there to make some tests.

If you think there is no circulation this could be a problem. Please let me know exactly how your reactor is set up. Number of plates, where the holes are located, what type of end plates and where the input ports and exit ports are located on the end plate. Is this how your setup is. -nnnnn+nnnnn- or ?

You can check for blockages in the system by blowing in the input port on one side and plugging the exit on the same (if you have exit ports on both sides) side to see if makes it all the way through. If you have the center plate with no holes then you will need to disassemble to check for a blockage.

The plate pictured shows that everything is working OK. Which plate in the reactor is this picture of?

Have you checked to see that all plates are getting the same voltage? You might have a short somewhere. Check each pair to make sure there is no short.

Hi
I just added the missing information in my initial post

take care to the RED sections, it's perhab my problem !!!!

[lhazleton]

One thing that I haven't noticed being mentioned is the electrolyte.
KOH or NaOh and what concentration? If it's weak, it's not gonna draw amps and it sure s hell won't produce.:rolleyes:

[Quebecker]

One thing that I haven't noticed being mentioned is the electrolyte.
KOH or NaOh and what concentration? If it's weak, it's not gonna draw amps and it sure s hell won't produce.:rolleyes:

NaOH - 18%
Distilled Water

[lhazleton]

Try raising the concentration & see if it helps.
I personally use 28% KOH only, so I'm not sure of the optimum amount for NaOH.

[nst6563]

I've seen numerous times that the input holes should be alternating. 1st on the left, next on the right, then left again, and so forth.

I'm unable to do that with the set of plates I have so they're all in line. If you have a flow issue that may be part of it.

For your brown water - it sounds like either impurities in the distilled water or possibly the plates weren't passivated correctly/enough/contaminants in the passivation. With 316L I wouldn't think there would be much discoloration at all - especially low amps.

First thing I think you should do is check if the flow problem really is the problem. Then Re-mix a fresh batch of electrolyte and re-run Try to keep at the same amperage as before. See if the brown water goes away. Get some Neodymium magnets (they're like $2 at Harbor Freight) and put them on the input line to the reactor - this will tell you if you have magnetic (iron) contaminants leaching from your ss which could be causing your discoloration.

[Quebecker]

Hi,

I disassembled my reactor ....
I think my problem is the glue that I used as insulation ???

Here a picture of one plate
http://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/12/14/86/85/p7190010.jpg

other side
http://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/12/14/86/85/p7190011.jpg


close up view
http://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/12/14/86/85/p7190012.jpg

Here is a picture of my endplate vs a regular plate.You can see that the input hole of the endplate does not correspond with those plates
http://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/12/14/86/85/p7190014.jpg

[Quebecker]

For now, I just finished cleaning the plates :rolleyes:, tomorrow I will do the passivation and assembly of the reactor



Do you think I could install the plates alternately so that the input hole is once again on the right, once left. And so in order to have staggered input hole ?

Like this ?
http://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/12/14/86/85/p7190013.jpg

[myoldyourgold]

Do you think I could install the plates alternately so that the input hole is once again on the right, once left. And so in order to have staggered input hole ?

Yes that will help. I would also suggest you insulate the spot opposite the hole.

How are you measuring your electrolyte concentration?

[nst6563]

I think the glue you used is part of the issue. Weldon 16 is what I've seen used the most - and for good reason. Here is a photo of one of my plates after I gave it a good hard run in one of the reactors I had assembled after the weldon16.
http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/9243/img0239ej.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/838/img0239ej.jpg/)
The area sealed by the weldon looks virtually un-touched and as if it were never used.

What did you clean the plates with? You may not need to re-passivate then. Simply expose them to O2 for a while and then re-assemble.
Passivating is the process of making the SS as corrosion resistant as it can be. The citric acid bath (or nitric if that's what you chose to use) removes surface contaminants and removes surface and near surface iron leaving the more corrosion resistant metals at and near the surface. Once it's removed from the passivation bath and rinsed completely with distilled water the oxidation begins. The oxidation is the protective layer on the ss that gives it it's stainless qualities. The more uniform this layer is the better protection and the same with thickness. Do not stack them after passivation, hang them. Don't hang them near other metals as this could be a cause of contamination.
Once the ss has been passivated there shouldn't be a need to re-passivate unless the surface has been etched in some way.

I've taken Carter's advice of wiping down everything with acetone during assembly. Endplates, gaskets, plates, the whole 9 yards. I have had better success overall and less leaks as a result.

[Quebecker]

Yes that will help. I would also suggest you insulate the spot opposite the hole.

How are you measuring your electrolyte concentration?

Tomorow, I will make a new electrolyte

500 mg NaOH + 2 liters (2000ml) distilled water
500 / 2500 * 100 = 20%
;)


What is the purpose of the insulation ?

[myoldyourgold]

500 mg NaOH + 2 liters (2000ml) distilled water
500 / 2500 * 100 = 20%

I think you meant:

400/2000 * 100 = 20% 1 liter of water 1000 Grams will require 200 Grams NaOH for a 20% solution. Specific gravity of 1.2191 at 20º C.

I use a hydrometer and only use 10% to 12% which is not more than a specific gravity of 1.1309 at 20º C

I hope I got that right some times I forget my metric numbers along with a lot of other things. LOL

[nst6563]

What is the purpose of the insulation ?

The insulation will prevent current leakage around the edges of the holes and thus cause the current to pass through the rest of the plate area (which is what we want).

[D.O.G]

I think you meant:

400/2000 * 100 = 20% 1 liter of water 1000 Grams will require 200 Grams NaOH for a 20% solution. Specific gravity of 1.2191 at 20º C.

I use a hydrometer and only use 10% to 12% which is not more than a specific gravity of 1.1309 at 20º C

I hope I got that right some times I forget my metric numbers along with a lot of other things. LOL

Um, actually, Quebecker had it (nearly) right the first time.:)

2500 grams of 20% electrolyte = 500 grams of NaOH + 2000 grams (2 litres) of distilled water.
Depending how much you need, just use one part NaOH to four parts water by weight.

[Quebecker]

I think you meant:

400/2000 * 100 = 20% 1 liter of water 1000 Grams will require 200 Grams NaOH for a 20% solution. Specific gravity of 1.2191 at 20º C.

I use a hydrometer and only use 10% to 12% which is not more than a specific gravity of 1.1309 at 20º C

I hope I got that right some times I forget my metric numbers along with a lot of other things. LOL

Chemical formula for calculating concentration

mass of solute / mass of solution* x 100

* Mass solute + solvent

[myoldyourgold]

Chemical formula for calculating concentration

mass of solute / mass of solution* x 100

* Mass solute + solvent


You are right Sir. I guess I had a senior moment at least that is what Lee would have said. LOL Not really I thought this would get every body stirred up and get more people to say I was wrong!! Wrong statements can be a good learning tool. If you had not corrected it I would have been forced to do it. D.O.G. and you get an A+ grade. LOL

Keep us informed on your progress. Your problem has to be a simple one.

[Quebecker]

Hi M. Carter,

Still me and my questions :-)

If the passivation cleans the plates of all impurities, passivation don't may interfere with the adhesion of the Weld-on 16 ?

Would not it be better to apply the insulation (weld-on 16) after passivation ?




Since I am not able to take the citric acid at high temperature, how long do I have to bath my plates if the solution is at a room temperature (± 23 °C) ? Some subjects talk about 2 hrs, others of 24 hrs. I am confused and I try to be the best way


Thanks in advance

[nst6563]

The passivation MAY interfere with the weldon adhesion. I've had mixed results doing the weldon before and after passivation. As long as the plates are thoroughly clean before passivation, the weldon sticks good. I've had some plates where the weldon came lose after the 150f citric acid bath so I've had to re-do the weldon. Not all plates have had the weldon fail in the acid bath however, only just a few - maybe 4 out of 36 of my plates have done that.

In both cases, the weldon sticks good as long as the plates are blasted in that area.

If you're not able to passivate the plates at the elevated temperature then soaking for 2 hours at 70-77f should also do the trick. The longer it soaks, the more the acid eats away - and the acid doesn't only dissolve the iron.

Here are some industry documents regarding passivation processes.
http://www.mediafire.com/?bm1jwwwd5z5ht
At the very least I recommend reading the one labeled AAA passivation methods as it provides the most detailed information as well as some illustrations of tests using salt sprays (standard passivation test is to expose a stainless steel part to a salt spray for a period of 2-3 hours and then clean.). The Aerospace document is from Beoing in St. Louis MO and includes a comparison of Nitric vs Citric acid passivations and their effects on different grades of stainless steel.

[myoldyourgold]

I use the 2 hour at room temperature process. I too have tried it both ways as far as when to put the Weld-on 16 on. Even though I have not had any come loose after the first couple of tries I have had some leakage from burst bubbles. I am not sure that I have solved this problem but this is the process I use now and only long term testing will confirm it or not.

I put the Weld-on after cleaning* the plates really well and using acetone in the area just before I put the Weld-on on. I then let things dry for at least 24 hours and put another coat on using acetone on the area being coated before putting on the Weld-on and then wait another 24 hours. I then examine them carefully and find a few that need a third coat. During this time the Passivation process which is a natural process has start as soon as the media blasting is done. So by the time you get the Weld-on on it has already started. The citric acid will remove the already started passivation and other unwanted metals except in the area where the Weld-on is. You then allow the oxygen to start the passivation process again. Now after all of this and since I fill in the whole port completely, I half to cut out the port leaving an edge around the port with a rotary tool and file. I then put one more layer of Weld-on using acetone on the already dry Weld-on just before I put the final layer on. This covers any holes which are a result of bubbles bursting during the Citric acid bath, drying process and cutting out the port. Now after another 24 hours it is ready for final cleaning and assembly.

*The cleaning process includes a wipe down of the total plate with acetone after washing down with a mild NaOH solution and never touching the plates again with your bare hands. Do not forget to finally rinse things very well with distilled water.

[Quebecker]

The insulation will prevent current leakage around the edges of the holes and thus cause the current to pass through the rest of the plate area (which is what we want).

Hi

The use of the gasket as insulation can be acceptable to you ?

SOmething like this
http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/2699/insulategaskey.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[myoldyourgold]

This has been tried before and does not work. Even a small burst bubble in the Weld-on causes leakage. Once it starts, it turns into a supper highway for leakage. Stick to Weld-on. The gasket only covers the surface not the inside edge and of course it has a little channel so it is of no real use.

[Quebecker]

UPDATE ABOUT MY PROBLEM

Tomorrow, I reassembled my improved reactor....

Today, during my lunch time, I replaced my electrolyte solution with a new fresh one (20% Caustic Acid -> NaOH).

I start my reactor and always the same "damned" problem
Discouraged, I make a test. I reversed the configuration from -NNNNNN+NNNNNN- to +NNNNNN-NNNNNN+ and :eek: ....

Wow, Hho gas production has become regular.
Why ? I don't know:confused:



Unfortunately, my HHO gas production is therefore limited to about 0.5LPM (3.57MMW). At 14 volts, the current rating can not exceed 10 amps and I do not know why ? My electrolyte is 20% NaOH with distilled water (distilled by steam and come from drugstore)


I check the voltage between each plate and it's always aprox. 1.98v for each one. No shortage

Your opinion ?


Despite my disappointment, however, there is a positive thing. At the purchase, the reactor produced initially 1.43MMW and post your valuable advice, I have improved so that it produces the 3.57MMW


Thanks

[nst6563]

I looked back through the thread and couldn't find it but what type of power supply are you using?

Battery + charger, charger, dedicated lab-type power supply, etc.

I've had different experiences with different power supplies. With the standard 'dumb' battery charger producing the worst results by itself. Using the 'dumb' charger + battery works better. Even better than that was the use of a 'smart' microprocessor controlled charger + battery.

I don't have the lab-grade power supply available unfortunately.

[Quebecker]

I looked back through the thread and couldn't find it but what type of power supply are you using?

Battery + charger, charger, dedicated lab-type power supply, etc.

I've had different experiences with different power supplies. With the standard 'dumb' battery charger producing the worst results by itself. Using the 'dumb' charger + battery works better. Even better than that was the use of a 'smart' microprocessor controlled charger + battery.

I don't have the lab-grade power supply available unfortunately.

Direct connect to my battery car

[nst6563]

Is the engine running or not during the tests?

I've run into the 10A max before but that was with my 'dumb' charger. Switching to battery + smart charger overcame that (without swapping electrolyte).

If not, I'd try it with the engine running. If it is, I'll have to leave a possible explanation up to someone with more experience.

[myoldyourgold]

Check the voltage on all 14 pairs. List them 1 through 14 so we can see them.

[Quebecker]

Hi,
I just finished new tests after replacing all my power cables. The results are better.

Voltage: 13.9 to 14.2 (connect to my engin when running)
Amp: 10 ??? never higher
Production: 0.5 Liter in 45 secondes -> 0.67 LPM

10 * 14.1 = 141 Watts
0.67 / 141 * 1000 = 4.75 MMW

Does 4.75 MMW at 14 volts is acceptable for this reactor (-NNNNNN+NNNNNN-) ?

The big question is: Why the amp don't go higher to 10 amp

Here is a video, take a look of my setup
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUgB4ZwaSxk

ANother video (in french)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PspMO69Qs78

Carter, the voltage between each plate is always aprox. 1.97-2.02 v for each one.