building a car that runs off HHO

[Umbrella-korp.com]

Ok so i am building a car that runs off only hho for my class this year, i have been building cells for the last 2 years mostly just wet cells to get the hang of it, but now i am building dry cells which work MUCH better, i recently purchased a unit that is a hybrid between wet/dry its polycarbonite box with slots cut into it to slide the plates in it is +NNNNN-I-NNNNN+ this unit is 4inch/7inch/5inch and produces 2.5-3lpm right now (tested) but after conditioning it is supose to be at 6lpm, im not going to use wet cells but between dry cell and this hybrid cell im not sure which to make i plan on using a 200 plate cell design but not sure which series is best +-+-+- so need input on that also, im using 14gage ss but not sure if i want 316 or 430, this is going to be a massive unit powered by 4 batteries hooked in a series so power is not going to be a issue. Engine is going to be a 6pack 3.0-3.6 unit will need to produce between 15-20 lpm to run it am wanting finished unit to make 30-40lpm or higher, also a way to store about an extra 10gal of it in an air bubble or something to be used to start engine when it has been off or will the battery power be enough to turn unit on to produce and start car, will have 2 alternators solar panel on roof. need input so let me know if you have done something i dont want to wast a lot of money on mistakes thanks.

[BioFarmer93]

OK, as long as you accept that it will only be able to run for a short duration at any given period of time, I will not be one of the people that will tell that it is strictly impossible. First of all, you need to come WAY down on engine size- I'd say about 750cc to 1200cc is going to be max, and you'll need to be able to manipulate the spark timing on it. You WILL need solar panels to make supplemental H2 and O2 to store as your primary fuel and oxidizer because there is no way on God's green earth that you can make enough on the fly to run the engine continuously with. You will need every watt of electricity that can be produced in any way- this means regenerative braking, solar built in to upward facing surfaces to supplement on the fly also, exhaust waste heat capture for steam production to run a modified weed wacker engine to spin a little alternator, and anything else you can come up with... You will need two little diaphragm compressors, one for O2, one for H2 that can have their motors swapped out for little DC motors, two LP tanks for gas storage, DEEP CYCLE (6 volt golf cart) batteries. Lots of things, too much to list right now. It can be done, not very efficiently or effectively, or with much range, but it can be done. Let's hear your ideas and musings on it.. You do know that you're going to need two different types of reactors, right? A common duct reactor for making HHO on the fly, and a separator reactor to make gasses for storage.

[Umbrella-korp.com]

why does the engine have to be so small iv done calculations on gas drops to hho, 1 US gallons = 75708 metric drops one liter of hho is the equilvolint of 4.5 drops if the car engine gets minimum of 20mpg for gas then you would need 14.02 lpm of hho to power the car but lets say your car gets 10mpg that means you should need 28.04lpm but even with this that is still possible if the cell you make is producing 30-40lpm so why do you have to have all those other things you say and a smaller engine?

also i have seen in person a person run there car on hho only they started it up turned off the gas turned on the hho and the car continued to run for the next 20min till he shut it off his cell was only making 10lpm which was making his car rev pretty high which means that the engine was getting more fuel than needed at idle and he just had 2 batteries powering his unit, its not a perpetual motion device because you are taking in power from engine battery your using that energy to make hho which will continue to power your engine but you are not getting something from nothing you are adding water electrolizer and current to make hho which powers car so why do you say it is not possible?

Car he had was Geo Metro inline 4 i believe 1.5 liter

[nst6563]

You need those other items to supplement the cost of production. Unless you somehow come up with a design that allows for significant over-unity, you're going to need another way to help generate the power it costs to generate the hho to run the engine.

[Umbrella-korp.com]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py8QYt54EpE&feature=related

[BioFarmer93]

why does the engine have to be so small iv done calculations on gas drops to hho, 1 US gallons = 75708 metric drops one liter of hho is the equilvolint of 4.5 drops if the car engine gets minimum of 20mpg for gas then you would need 14.02 lpm of hho to power the car but lets say your car gets 10mpg that means you should need 28.04lpm but even with this that is still possible if the cell you make is producing 30-40lpm so why do you have to have all those other things you say and a smaller engine?

also i have seen in person a person run there car on hho only they started it up turned off the gas turned on the hho and the car continued to run for the next 20min till he shut it off his cell was only making 10lpm which was making his car rev pretty high which means that the engine was getting more fuel than needed at idle and he just had 2 batteries powering his unit, its not a perpetual motion device because you are taking in power from engine battery your using that energy to make hho which will continue to power your engine but you are not getting something from nothing you are adding water electrolizer and current to make hho which powers car so why do you say it is not possible?

Car he had was Geo Metro inline 4 i believe 1.5 liter

If you don't mind, I'd like the link to that please. OK, anyway, there is a high probability that was faked. I'm not the greatest at math, but I'll try to struggle through this... We'll suppose a 1.5L engine, idling at what? 600RPM about right? OK then, it's a 4 stroke engine so intake and compression make one revolution, power & exhaust make the second revolution to complete a full cycle. Since the intake stroke is what we'll be measuring here, and we know that it's 1/4th of a cycle (150 intake strokes in one minute) times 1.5L (the engines displacement) that makes 225 liters per minute of HHO necessary just to idle @ 600RPM. But maybe it doesn't actually see that much H2 because HHO is 1/3 O2, so now we realize that we actually only need 150lpm of H2 to idle this engine.. Or do we? I seem to remember reading that H2 can explode in concentrations as low as 4%.. But how powerful would a 4% explosion be? Powerful enough to drive a piston down? Lots more questions than answers... Like I said before, I wont tell you it can't be done, but I can tell you that the better part of that engines output will go towards making HHO.

[myoldyourgold]

Umbrella-korp.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py8QY...eature=related


By bring up Fast Freddy's BS into this discussion just makes no sense. There is no proof whatsoever that anything he has done or even promised to do is anything more than bovine fecal mater. Until a qualified third party who is not associated in anyway with Fast Freddy can verify any of his stuff, I would leave that one out. I suggest you help out and anti up the $5500 or what ever Fast Freedy is asking and then wait and see if you get anything or even if you do, if it works when you get it. Maybe you could report back on it.

The bottom line is unless you can tap some other energy source other than the vehicles engine and battery to supplement the necessary energy required to split the water you are just wasting your time.

[BioFarmer93]

Hey Carter,
The link wasn't there when I posted, so I didn't know it was fast freddy, the fearless fleecer of feckless fools, fiendishly fleecing the financially flush....

[Umbrella-korp.com]

what is the best series to use +nnnnn-? also best working conditions on a single plate is .5 amp 2volts there will be 40 power plates 20 + 20 - so using that how many amps should i expect to be using? will probable be split the unit in to 2 or 4 cells combined together would make it easier to assimble and disassimble, otherwise im looking at a 15 by15 by 30 cell

[nst6563]

what is the best series to use +nnnnn-? also best working conditions on a single plate is .5 amp 2volts there will be 40 power plates 20 + 20 - so using that how many amps should i expect to be using? will probable be split the unit in to 2 or 4 cells combined together would make it easier to assimble and disassimble, otherwise im looking at a 15 by15 by 30 cell

You should do some serious searching. Use what you find as a guide, then once you've decided the parameters of your cell ask specific questions.

To lay it out quickly though (as I have done the same and not found everything or found contradicting information through searches):

The best configuration depends on what you're using for source voltage. Many people use -NNNNN+ or -NNNNNN+, some people use 'brute force' which would be something like -+-+-+-. General rule is .5A PER SQR INCH of active plate area. You'll have to do the math to determine how many amps you can put through the cell without overheating - figure the plate dimensions minus the gasket area, minus the input/output ports and weldon (or other current prohibiting material) area. Voltage per plate is generally accepted as between 1.5v to 2.0v. The higher the voltage the more heat will be generated.

Lots of research. Lots of info to be had as well. But to get helpful and specific answers to your questions, you'll have to be specific with the details in question.

[Umbrella-korp.com]

i used to make cells like the brute force +-+-+- they produce tons they just get very hot very fast is there a way to do brute force but keep it cool? maybe put in half inch gaps between plates? the +nnnnn- works but it doesnt produce as crazy. just wondering if anyone has tried that

[BioFarmer93]

I think I and the other mentors probably need to sit down together (figuratively) and make up a primer, and make it mandatory reading before any questions are answered. I'm already seeing definition drift in this thread, so we should probably nip it in the bud... SO-

1.) A CELL is two plates and the electrolyte between them.

2.) BRUTE FORCE electrolysis is what we are all doing, whether you are using a PWM or not, unless you have figured out the proper frequency to resonate YOUR PARTICULAR ELECTROLYZER and produce HHO (not steam or vapor) at a rate greater than Faraday's maximum.

3.) An ELECTROLYZER, REACTOR, GPU (Gas Production Unit), CONVERTER, and a couple of others that I can't think of at the moment are all the same thing- a collection of CELLS. (see #1)

4. There are two basic types of electrolyzers (and a few types of hybrids that we wont get into now) The most commonly known type (thanks to the internet & Youtube) is actually a Johnny-come-lately arrangement known as a Tero Ranta style, or more properly "BIPOLAR" reactor. It's plate arrangement is like this.. [+NNNNN-NNNNN+] The "N" or neutral plates are actually not neutral at all, they are bipolar (two poles) and are positive on one side and negative on the other. In this type of reactor, "N" plates, and the "+" and "-" plates they are between is known as a "STACK". Stack size determines the operating voltage of each CELL. The other type of electrolyzer is the BioFarmer style or more properly "UNIPOLAR" reactor. Its plates are typically arranged into seven groups (for automotive voltages) with a plate arrangement like this- [+-+-+-+][-+-+-+-][+-+-+-+][-+-+-+-][+-+-+-+][-+-+-+-][+-+-+-+]. All of the plates of one polarity in each group are electro-mechanically connected.

[nst6563]

There's a few ways to control the heat.
First one is plate gap.
Second being electrolyte concentration.
Third being a PWM.

I've experimented with all three with a -+ setup. Electrolyte concentration seems most effective, PWM is the easiest. Plate gap works just takes up more space.

*my bad on the definition drift ;) I see the common term brute force being thrown at the -+ arrangements.

[Umbrella-korp.com]

so how well does the +nnnnn- compare to (-+-+-+-+) to +nnnnn-nnnnn+ which run most effectivly with least heat
would -+-+-+ run better if it had 1/4inch gap to .5 gap?
im trying not to use pwm if i can

[BioFarmer93]

Yesterday 05:16 PM
nst6563 There's a few ways to control the heat.
First one is plate gap.
Second being electrolyte concentration.
Third being a PWM.

@nst6563- Plate gap and electrolyte concentration are both very high loss/inefficient ways to control heat, and you should not have to use a PWM. If you design your reactor properly, none of those remedies are necessary. By properly (for automotive voltages) I mean that you must have 6 neutral plates in each stack for small area single & double stack reactors, and 5 neutrals for larger area & 3 stack and above reactors. This conclusion is not cast in stone, but is a darn good rule of thumb that has been arrived at through observation and study by many people here and on a very good forum that no longer exists.


Umbrella-korp.com so how well does the +nnnnn- compare to (-+-+-+-+) to +nnnnn-nnnnn+ which run most effectivly with least heat
would -+-+-+ run better if it had 1/4inch gap to .5 gap? I'm trying not to use pwm if I can.

@Umbrella-korp- OK, here is golden opportunity to define types...
+nnnnn- represents a single stack bipolar arrangement.
+nnnnn-nnnnn+ represents a double stack bipolar arrangement
(+-+-+-+-) represents a single group from a unipolar arrangement. To run at the proper voltage, this unipolar arrangement needs 6 more identical groups series connected.
Since most people don't want to go to the trouble of building a unipolar electrolyzer, even though it has better performance, you should just build a 3 stack bipolar reactor based on the lpm you want. Figure .35A sq. inch times wet plate area, and about 14A per lpm of gas. These numbers will make efficient use of your available watts, supply a good amount of gas and if you use at least 5 neutral plates, won't over heat.;)

[nst6563]

@nst6563- Plate gap and electrolyte concentration are both very high loss/inefficient ways to control heat, and you should not have to use a PWM. If you design your reactor properly, none of those remedies are necessary. By properly (for automotive voltages) I mean that you must have 6 neutral plates in each stack for small area single & double stack reactors, and 5 neutrals for larger area & 3 stack and above reactors. This conclusion is not cast in stone, but is a darn good rule of thumb that has been arrived at through observation and study by many people here and on a very good forum that no longer exists.



I can assure you it's been 5 years since I messed with a -+-+ type configuration and it was a wet cell back then. The configuration I'm running is -NNNNNN+NNNNNN- with the + having no holes and in/out ports on both hdpe endplates.

I've been away for ~3-4 years and have recently gotten back into hho and Carter has helped immensely with the questions I couldn't find answers to.


btw - has anyone tried using a gas flowmeter to measure output? Is there a downside to using that instead of the standard method?

[lhazleton]

Gus,
I can see you're getting ready to pull your hair out again......

NST,
Flowmeters on the market aren't accurate for hydroxy. They're basically set up for oxygen, which is much heavier.

[BioFarmer93]

Gus,
I can see you're getting ready to pull your hair out again.......

DUDE! Are you kiddin' me?!? Chris0147 already cleaned me out!

[lhazleton]

LOL!!
Maybe he's been reincarnated??:D

[nst6563]

NST,
Flowmeters on the market aren't accurate for hydroxy. They're basically set up for oxygen, which is much heavier.

Has anyone tried to make one or modify the oxygen type for hydroxy?

[myoldyourgold]

One of the larger manufactures (Dwyer) has made a few gauges especially for HHO. The problem is that in order for it to be accurate there most be very little to no moisture in the gas, temperatures must be maintained at a given temperature, ambient as well as reactor, and this is not that easy to do. The bottle to be accurate has to have the same conditions and so neither unless under strictly controlled laboratory conditions are accurate. At the best this type of measurement is just to show if you made any major improvements or not and if you are in the ball park or not.

[Umbrella-korp.com]

ok i have my plate design it is going to be either 5 by 8 or 7 by 10 and there are going to be either 70 plates or 140 being ran using 24volt batteries either 5 for the 70 plate or 10 for the 140 plate can someone tell me around how many amps i should be drawling for each one
will be -nnnnn+ so 20 power plates on 70 and 40 power on 140
gasket around each cell will be between 1/4 - 1/2 not sure which to go with also should i put a couple small holes in bottom and top or on hole in top and bottom 1/2in to 1in.
will be ordering plates and gaskets this week haveing 1/8in thick nylon gasket cut.
all info will be greatly appreashated

[Umbrella-korp.com]

and each set of 14 will be hooked to a battery or should i hook all batteries in a series and connect all plates together?

[BioFarmer93]

OK, let's think about your battery choice.. You asked "How many amps will this draw?" That all depends on plate count and size. You would do better to ask yourself "How many amps can I supply without melting cables and blowing up batteries?" Because, in any system the supply determines the reactor size, whether from alternator or battery. So, what batteries are you going to use, and how many will this little car hold?:D
You have to make up your mind about the square inches before we can help you with the voltage or amperage- besides, the plate config you showed is a 12v config, for 24v you have to have 10-12 neutral plates. Oh, and do NOT use nylon for gasket material, it's too hard to make seal well and you'll be tempted to use something out of a tube to make it seal and then you'll have a big mess. Use 1/8" EPDM instead
Plate hole size: One at top & bottom and don't go larger than 1/2" dia. Have the hole edge right up next to the edge of your gasket, so get your gasket size figured out first, and for a reactor as large as yours I would never go below 3/8" width. On power plates, center the holes (still at top and bottom) on the plates, on neutral plates do top right - bottom left, this lets you stagger the plates so the holes don't line up and reduces current leakage. Get all of your plates sand blasted, wash in hot distilled water with a mild Dawn solution, rinse with warm tap water then re-rinse with distilled water (you're wearing rubber gloves through all of this) and let sit in a container of distilled water. Now you passivate- heat a 10% solution of distilled water and citric acid from the local wine & beer making supply store up to 120-130F for the plates to soak in for two hours. After soaking, take them out and set them on edge on clean towels to dry. When dry, and while wearing gloves, apply a 1/2" wide ring of Weldon-16 around every hole and in its edge also. Don't try to use the Weldon-16 without sandblasting the plates, it won't stick. It takes three coats and 24 hrs. between each coat. Plates prepared in this manner will give you the highest output possible from 316L stainless.

[Umbrella-korp.com]

ok how many amps can i draw without blowing up the battery, should i just go the way of bob boyce and make a plexiglass cell to avoid voltage leakage, and why does it have to have 10 neutrals in between cant i have -nnnnn+nnnnn- and have that hooked up to one of the 24volt batterys that would drop volt to 1.85volts per cell, also if i do the bob boyce design how do you hook all the positive and negative plates to the power?

[lhazleton]

In a 24v system, -NNNNN+NNNNN- would be 4v per cell.
If you do as Gus suggested (-NNNNNNNNNN+), it would be 2.18v.
12 neutrals would be ideal as it would deliver 1.84v per cell.

[koya1893]

May I recommend following "Mentors" suggestions specially Gus inputs. but if you wish to follow your own menthod, why come here and ask for help.

[BioFarmer93]

ok how many amps can i draw without blowing up the battery, should i just go the way of bob boyce and make a plexiglass cell to avoid voltage leakage, and why does it have to have 10 neutrals in between cant i have -nnnnn+nnnnn- and have that hooked up to one of the 24volt batterys that would drop volt to 1.85volts per cell, also if i do the bob boyce design how do you hook all the positive and negative plates to the power?

U-k,
I'll be honest with you and say that I'm no expert on Bob's design, you would have to ask Bob about that... We can talk you through bipolar and unipolar reactors here at HHOForums, but I don't remember anyone here ever building a B-B style reactor (at least since I've been a member). My advice to you for the amount of output you need, would be to build a large six group unipolar reactor of sufficient plate area to absorb about .375A per sq. in. I say six group rather than seven because your primary source of current will be from the batteries and not the alternator. Also, the reason I say .375A per sq. in. is because unipolar (BioFarmer) reactors tend to be more efficient at larger sizes and have better low current density performance than bipolar's do.
It's too bad that the HHO Underground is no more, as you could have followed a well documented build & operation of a very large unipolar reactor by the member here HHOPWR. The results were pretty astounding...

[Umbrella-korp.com]

how do you make it unpolar? im not famaliar with that i just know the polar ones
please elaborate, i will follow your direction you have done this before, so just tell me how many - , + , and n i need what order and size to produce the 30-40 liters i am aiming for, id like to make the cell more rectangle than square to save some room so for size keep that in mind thanks.

[Umbrella-korp.com]

also where do you have your ss and gasket cut by and could one of the main heads email me your number so i can call to get help when i undertake this
umbrella-korp@live.com
thanks

[BioFarmer93]

also where do you have your ss and gasket cut by and could one of the main heads email me your number so i can call to get help when i undertake this
umbrella-korp@live.com
thanks

Check your email...

[Umbrella-korp.com]

iv tried to look up unpolar reactors and i cant find anything, there are no other forums, theres just nothing, what is a unpolar reactor?

[BioFarmer93]

UNIPOLAR, not unpolar.. It is a reactor which is divided into seven groups for 12v vehicles- for your 24v system it would be divided into 14 groups and be HUGE. It would take two people to safely move it around. The primary difference is in the way it is wired up, it's like this:

[+-+-+]_[-+-+-]_[+-+-+]_[-+-+-]_[+-+-+]_[-+-+-]_[+-+-+]
GROUP1_GROUP2_GROUP3_GROUP4_GROUP5_GROUP6_GROUP7

each group divides voltage, so in a car the 13.6 or so volts your alt puts out gets divided by 7 for 1.94v per group. The plastic dividers between each group need to be thick enough to be drilled and tapped on edge for the fittings, usually 1" thick HDPE, so in your case were you to build a unipolar style reactor, you would have 15" of width taken up by nothing but dividers before you even started adding plates and gaskets. In most applications that would be a deal breaker, but for your proof of concept vehicle you can just pull out the back seat and be good to go.

[koya1893]

UNIPOLAR, not unpolar.. It is a reactor which is divided into seven groups for 12v vehicles- for your 24v system it would be divided into 14 groups and be HUGE. It would take two people to safely move it around. The primary difference is in the way it is wired up, it's like this:

[+-+-+]_[-+-+-]_[+-+-+]_[-+-+-]_[+-+-+]_[-+-+-]_[+-+-+]
GROUP1_GROUP2_GROUP3_GROUP4_GROUP5_GROUP6_GROUP7

each group divides voltage, so in a car the 13.6 or so volts your alt puts out gets divided by 7 for 1.94v per group. The plastic dividers between each group need to be thick enough to be drilled and tapped on edge for the fittings, usually 1" thick HDPE, so in your case were you to build a unipolar style reactor, you would have 15" of width taken up by nothing but dividers before you even started adding plates and gaskets. In most applications that would be a deal breaker, but for your proof of concept vehicle you can just pull out the back seat and be good to go.
Gus,
I am having a senior moment here; the plates for each GROUP. Are holes for each plate staggered and the dividing made of 1" HDPE has a hole drilled all the way through or is it channel to the side exit?

Hence, I am relying on video or hands on teaching. Maybe a short video for us old guys like me. thank you.

[BioFarmer93]

Ben,
The holes in the plates can all line up because being [+-+-+-+] there is always an opposite polarity plate to complete the cell. Current won't travel through holes to reach it's opposite charge any farther than it has to. The way I'm plumbing it with a positive and a negative reservoir lead me to venture the statement that there will be ZERO current leakage. I realize that is a bold statement, but if anyone, friend or foe can point out a way that it could happen, I will be studiously attentive.
The reason the divider and end pieces are 1" thick is so I can drill and tap into the edges, and then drill in from one face to intersect those vertical holes to serve the cells on the left, and then from the other face to serve the cells on the right. This is how the groups are isolated from an electrolyte standpoint. Oh, hey- PM me your home email addy, I have something for you...

[Umbrella-korp.com]

can you give me the name of the websites were you get your ss and gaskets cut thanks

[Quebecker]

OK, let's think about your battery choice.. You asked "How many amps will this draw?" That all depends on plate count and size. You would do better to ask yourself "How many amps can I supply without melting cables and blowing up batteries?" Because, in any system the supply determines the reactor size, whether from alternator or battery. So, what batteries are you going to use, and how many will this little car hold?:D
You have to make up your mind about the square inches before we can help you with the voltage or amperage- besides, the plate config you showed is a 12v config, for 24v you have to have 10-12 neutral plates. Oh, and do NOT use nylon for gasket material, it's too hard to make seal well and you'll be tempted to use something out of a tube to make it seal and then you'll have a big mess. Use 1/8" EPDM instead
Plate hole size: One at top & bottom and don't go larger than 1/2" dia. Have the hole edge right up next to the edge of your gasket, so get your gasket size figured out first, and for a reactor as large as yours I would never go below 3/8" width. On power plates, center the holes (still at top and bottom) on the plates, on neutral plates do top right - bottom left, this lets you stagger the plates so the holes don't line up and reduces current leakage. Get all of your plates sand blasted, wash in hot distilled water with a mild Dawn solution, rinse with warm tap water then re-rinse with distilled water (you're wearing rubber gloves through all of this) and let sit in a container of distilled water. Now you passivate- heat a 10% solution of distilled water and citric acid from the local wine & beer making supply store up to 120-130F for the plates to soak in for two hours. After soaking, take them out and set them on edge on clean towels to dry. When dry, and while wearing gloves, apply a 1/2" wide ring of Weldon-16 around every hole and in its edge also. Don't try to use the Weldon-16 without sandblasting the plates, it won't stick. It takes three coats and 24 hrs. between each coat. Plates prepared in this manner will give you the highest output possible from 316L stainless.

Hi BioFarmer93,

When you say "mild Dawn solution", does it's soap solution ?

Thanks

[BioFarmer93]

Yes, it is a very good grease cutting dish washing liquid.

[Umbrella-korp.com]

ok going off the either 12 or 24 volt system for unipolar cell how big should each plate be was thinking bout 9in by 18in but that would it would draw 5670 (.5 amp per inch for 24volt) amps thinking thats a little too much did i do my math wrong here or should i just scale it down by alot? even the 12volt system would draw 2835 amps.
should i just go back to the +NNNNN- way of doing it?
i know unipolar means it makes the hho between the cells so they rise faster but how can i bring amps down to a range thats worth while.
my house has 200 service amps comming in the 5670 just seems insane

[BioFarmer93]

I'd say go with something a little more manageable as far as size, maybe like 7x10 with 6x9 as wet plate and orient the holes so that the vertical dimension is the 7" one. If you go unipolar, you can figure 1/4 amp per sq. in. instead of 1/2 just because the low current density performance of a unipolar is better... The build is more complex but the performance is better, everything is a trade off. OK, if you went with that size, it would be about 54 sq. in. per plate, and say perhaps 9 plates in a group to make 486 sq. in. per group... 486x1/4 amp = 121.5 amps. At this point I become fuzzy, because there are differing opinions about where the math goes from here. I am of the opinion that each group will draw 121 amps because the remainder of the reactor needs current at the same level. Then there are folks that insist that the measurement is arrived at from one group, but then applied to the entire reactor as the correct amperage for that reactor. Maybe we'll get lucky and one of the other mentors that really has a handle on this aspect of it will jump in and settle it once and for all with an explanation that we both can understand...
As for batteries, a 100 amp hour battery (ideally in a theoretical world) could put out 100 amps for 1 hour, or 1 amp for 100 hours, 4 amps for 25 hours, 20 amps for 5 hours.... You get the picture, right? However, super high discharge rates cause batteries to heat up, so you get more batteries to place in PARALLEL to keep the voltage at 12 or 24 (make up your mind, OK?) but raise the available amperage as well as amp hour total. You already know that this vehicle will probably not run for more than 5 minutes at a time, so if you used 9 or 10 100 amp hour batteries, and distributed them between the trunk & back floor board (you've already pulled the back seat out, right?) that would give you 900 - 1000 amps to work with. Enough to power a B.A.R.- last word is "reactor".;)

[Topgun]

"Umbrella Korp" sounds familiar :p

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/74201_1695768395181_1266980475_31867590_6401297_n. jpg

[myoldyourgold]

Gus, as a friend, on current leakage the way to tell is if there is any voltage in the reservoir. Every setup I have tested does have voltage in the reservoir. Ions are attracted to the opposite polarity but because input ports being in line and running in a flooded state some of the errant little buggers flow not to the next plate but .... and show up as voltage in the reservoir. That is how I see it anyway. When you get yours running this time you can test it. What is a puzzle to me is it is always positive at least, what I have tested, so what happens to the negative buggers? Some of both must make it there and cancel each other I guess, but more positive ... ....??? I have no idea. As usual I could be wrong but that is how I see it.

[BioFarmer93]

Oh Carter,
I can't believe you haven't figured that out yet! The reservoir is always higher than the reactor, right? Well obviously the little positive thingies (whatever they are) are lighter and just get stuck there because they're so little and can't swim against the current.. Sometimes I think you're just too smart to see the obvious stuff!

On a lighter note, does the reservoir go negative if you swap feed polarities to the plates?

[myoldyourgold]

LOL the funniest thing is the "to smart" to ?? maybe but not smart. Gus in my testing I have not been able to make it go negative no matter what the last plate is, so am taking advantage of it being positive. It is the same on bipolar where there is to inputs and exits so opposite plates on each feed. After more testing I might open my mouth on how and see how many flies I can trap. LOL I believe I shared most of it with you a few months ago.

[guitaguy79]

Just to help on the engine size bit. The good Geos' (XFI, or if your canadian like me, a Firefly FE) had a 993cc TBI. Dead simple to work on and great on gas to begin with. My best mileage run was a touch over 60mpg...
Drivin by a prius laughing

[HandyRandy89]

Have any of you found a way around burning up the power source?