HHO for Land Rover

[Dimuthu_4S7DZ]

I like to know if any Land Rovers been fixed with HHO generators.
regards
Dimuthu

[BioFarmer93]

Yes, of course, somewhere... The vehicle doesn't matter so much as its configuration. You said you have an indirect injected non-electronic diesel engine, right? It will work fine.

[Dimuthu_4S7DZ]

HI
yes i have 2.5L LR 110; fixed with HHO dry cell. I made it with 5"x5" size, 316L plates, with 2.75-3.mm gap. it takes around 18 Amps without PWM, I use KOH with distrilled water. PH level of the liquid is 10. cell voltage reads 2.2V and 2.3V (measured when the water temp is around 50C)
but the HHO production is 1 l/m. how can get 2.5 l/min?

This dry cell has two outputs 1/4" and one 1/4" input line. one output line is very slow, other output line gives high rate of gas output. that line is in the same side of the input line

thank for your kind addivice in addvance.:)

[BioFarmer93]

Hello Dimuthu,
I need a bit more information, you say 5x5 plates- does that mean 5x5 overall size with a 4x4 working area, or are they 5x5 working area with a 6x6 overall size? Also, how many plates total, and how do you have the power plates and neutral plates configured? [+nnnnn-nnnnn+] or [+nnnnn-] ?
Trying to measure the pH of KOH in solution becomes inaccurate very quickly at anything over the very lowest readings (I only found this out a few weeks ago). A much easier way of getting the proper KOH solution is to measure out 280 grams (10oz.) of dry KOH and mix with 720 (cc/milliliters) / 1-1/2 pints / 4 cups of distilled water. If the strength of your electrolyte is less than this then you still have some room for increasing the conductivity of the solution, if it is a bit stronger than this it's OK.

[Dimuthu_4S7DZ]

Dear Sir,
Thank for the reply.

The plates overall size is 5"x5", active area is 4"x4". (1/2" rubber gasket)
I have used 11 plates configured as -NNNN+NNNN-
I did use 200grams of KOH with 800grams distrilled water.

its creating form when the water temperature goes up.

The HHO output gas is some thing like fog, its smells KOH, is that ok?

present i have one input and two outputs, if I make an other input that will increase the rate?

Thank you
regards
Dimuthu


[/I][/I][/I]I need a bit more information, you say 5x5 plates- does that mean 5x5 overall size with a 4x4 working area, or are they 5x5 working area with a 6x6 overall size? Also, how many plates total, and how do you have the power plates and neutral plates configured? [+nnnnn-nnnnn+] or [+nnnnn-] ?
Trying to measure the pH of KOH in solution becomes inaccurate very quickly at anything over the very lowest readings (I only found this out a few weeks ago). A much easier way of getting the proper KOH solution is to measure out 280 grams (10oz.) of dry KOH and mix with 720 (cc/milliliters) / 1-1/2 pints / 4 cups of distilled water. If the strength of your electrolyte is less than this then you still have some room for increasing the conductivity of the solution, if it is a bit stronger than this it's OK.

[BioFarmer93]

Another water input on each side will not hurt, but it may not help.. Use two more neutral plates in each stack- [-nnnnnn+nnnnnn-] and it should take care of your fog (steam). Use a tall (24") bubbler to clean up your gas.

[Dimuthu_4S7DZ]

The dry cell output the fog like thing does it got KOH vapour?
without filtering does it if directed to the engine will it be harm full to the
metel/aluminim parts of the engine?

As you said i have increased the KOH upto about 25%, the HHO out put become 1.5 litre/min
i have to add 2 more plates -nnnnn+nnnnn-

[BioFarmer93]

The dry cell output the fog like thing does it got KOH vapour?
without filtering does it if directed to the engine will it be harm full to the
metel/aluminim parts of the engine?

As you said i have increased the KOH upto about 25%, the HHO out put become 1.5 litre/min
i have to add 2 more plates -nnnnn+nnnnn-

Yes it does have KOH vapor, that is why I encouraged you to make a bubbler, to "scrub" the bubbles (break them over and over). There are many ways to do this, so research "bubbler" and look at all the different ways to break up and reduce the size of the bubbles going through it. Yes KOH will harm aluminum. -You must add 4 more plates- 2 more to each set of neutral plates, not just one more. You want to have 6 neutral plates between each + and - plate. I am happy that you have already raised your output by 1/2 lpm- keep going!

[Dimuthu_4S7DZ]

Hi Mentor,
Thank you for the information.
for a 24" tall bubler need higher pressure to buble out the gas?

Last sunday i add 2 plates. the fog got reduced like into half of the previous rate.
My new configuration is 13 plates (4"x4" active area) -NNNNN+NNNNN-
For the LR 2.5L non turbo diesel engine i have observedsignificant improvement in picup. The engine beat is smoother, (i still not been able to do a long distance test run with HHO)
However the Land Rover alternator is not sufficient to
provide enough load. Therefore battery voltage get dropped.

What will be the recommended HHO rate and HHO configuration for 2.5 L diesel engine?

[BioFarmer93]

Dimuthu,
Yes, this was a thing in the back of my mind- many times diesel vehicle's do not have large alternators because the engine does not require electricity to run, so the manufacturer puts only the smallest alternator in the vehicle that will perform the basic job. Before you look for a new alternator, clean all of your electrical connections VERY well, and use the largest wires that you can make fit, to connect your reactor to the electrical system. Replace the small wire that leads from your alternator to the positive of your battery with a thicker wire. I do not know where you are, or what resources you have available to you, so I will just tell you how to make a conductive paste to put on all the electrical connections as you re-assemble them. Use 1/2 teaspoon of white lithium grease (if unavailable then petroleum jelly) and the graphite of one pencil "lead" powdered by sand-paper. Stir together to a consistent black paste and use a small amount between all electrical connections.

A 2.5L diesel needs 2.5LpM of gas.

[Dimuthu_4S7DZ]

Hi Mentor,
I am from Sri Lanka, i do have a compound similar to you told. i can use it, thanks you for remind me. The Alternator is 70Amp. when the vehicle runs at night with head lights on battery draining faster.
now i use a small solar pannel to keep the battery charge during the day time when the vehicle at park :)

i need to ask one more thing.
When i remove the plates the negative side of the plates were all chocolate brown, the positive side of the plate were clear.
i though of reverse the polarity of the dry cell to make it clean. do you think it is wise to do?
thanks
regards
Dimuthu

[BioFarmer93]

Hi Mentor,
I am from Sri Lanka, i do have a compound similar to you told. i can use it, thanks you for remind me. The Alternator is 70Amp. when the vehicle runs at night with head lights on battery draining faster.
now i use a small solar pannel to keep the battery charge during the day time when the vehicle at park :)

i need to ask one more thing.
When i remove the plates the negative side of the plates were all chocolate brown, the positive side of the plate were clear.
i though of reverse the polarity of the dry cell to make it clean. do you think it is wise to do?
thanks
regards
Dimuthu

Dimuthu,
Make sure you have a diode on the positive wire of that solar panel, or your battery will try to charge the panel when a cloud passes in front of the sun.
You need to be sure that the charging system on your LR is healthy- Good battery, good voltage regulator, good alternator & good connections- because the HHO reactor is very demanding.
Is the color really chocolate brown, or is it slightly golden looking? That is a layer that usually happens in reactors, it is supposed to be a good thing and very conductive. Go ahead and reverse polarity and see if this coating occurs again on the sides of the plates that were positive- but keep an eye open for any drop in production, as that would indicate the discoloration is NOT the good thing it is supposed to be. Please let us know the results. Take care.

[thusithasam]

Hi friend,
I am also from Sri-Lanka. And looking for a build HHO generator. Can you please send me your contact number? my skype is thusitha2005. I am online all day long.

Thanks,
Thusitha

[BioFarmer93]

Thusitha,
I do not skype... Sorry. Read and study the pages already in this forum before starting to ask questions please.

[thusithasam]

Thanks for your answer.Where are pages? I like to build dry cell.Please give me the link?

Thanks,
Thusitha

[BioFarmer93]

Thanks for your answer.Where are pages? I like to build dry cell.Please give me the link?

Thanks,
Thusitha

Back up one click from this page you are now on, then, on the right, and up a little you will see "pages 1 - 111" and [1][2][3][4] etc...

[thusithasam]

Mentor,
My vehicle with 1.8L Petrol EFI Toyota engine. How many plates should I use for built a dry cell and waht are the messurements? I do not have digrams.Can you please tell me where I can get A-Z information about this dry cell.

Thanks,
Thusitha

[thusithasam]

Dimuthu,
From where you buy 316L sheet? How much you paid for it?

Thanks,
Thusitha

[Dimuthu_4S7DZ]

i made HHO bubles from my dry cell and got it exploded using a burning incense stick (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incense)
it got exploded with a big sound and explotion colour was like sunset colour
red orage.
Size of the buble need to be like similar to a teniss ball size. smaller bubles didn't exploded.

[Dimuthu_4S7DZ]

My 13 plate HHO wich was producing 1.3L/min for the 2.5L Land Rover 12J engine.
I tested it for a 200Km journey, there was less smoke,pick up was very good
however per litre it was the same milage even without HHO.
:confused:

[BioFarmer93]

Perhaps you may be enjoying the new pickup just a little too much?

[Dimuthu_4S7DZ]

Perhaps you may be enjoying the new pickup just a little too much?

yes the pic up was good,when loading the engine for the addtional 20A for the HHO will that be the issue? since i didn't use a PWM?:confused:

[BioFarmer93]

Good morning Dimuthu,
You do not need a PWM, your reactor is designed well and you have not mentioned that it is over heating. I think that what you need is one more lpm of HHO. If you can manage to find a larger alternator, then you need to do so.
I have calculated your reactors working area at 208 sq. in.. It should easily be able to handle 50A, unfortunately your alternator wouldn't be able to produce at that level for very long without problems. Were you ever able to get your plates sand blasted? That will help with gas production also, so will going up to a full 28% KOH electrolyte. One more thing- you mentioned that your diesel smokes- or smokes less now. You should have an adjustment on your injection pump to lower or raise the fuel delivery rate. Smoke means too much fuel- or a dirty air filter... Check both and see if you can find a larger alternator. Let us know!

[Dimuthu_4S7DZ]

well the water donot get boilled, however it heats upto like 60C. i haven't measured.
In my area in Sri Lanka, day time out door temperature is around 30C, night it is around 27C.
The smoke is less i mean, however as you said it was not feeded with the load current the reactor asking for. Therefore the production is less. Also i haven't use upto 28% of KOH. What i have used is like 15-20%.
The sand blast option is not available right now, how often it need to be cleaned?

[BioFarmer93]

Good morning Dimuthu,
The sand blasting is not for cleaning the plates, what the sand blasting does is to create millions of micro peaks and valleys on the surface of the plates. Every place that there is a micro point or edge is a place for gas bubble formation, making your reactor much more productive. That is why we stress this step so much in the construction of these reactors.
60C is a little too hot, you want to run about 40-45C. If you go ahead and put one more neutral plate on each side, it will lower the temperature and produce more gas. Also, raise the percentage of KOH to the full 28%.
I have been researching the L-R 2.5liter 12J diesel and it seems that it uses the Lucas CAV DPS rotary injection pump. This is unfortunate because the fuel delivery rate is not adjustable on that particular pump. You never mentioned whether your engine used a turbo or not. If it does not, then you would benefit a great deal by installing one. If your engine is naturally aspirated, then make sure your air filter is new/clean. Your engine needs to “breathe” with less restriction to burn its fuel better. If you can not afford a turbo, then try to find a way to use a large/larger free flowing air filter, and pull your intake air from in front of your car rather than from the hot air under the hood (bonnet).
I know you must be feeling a bit overwhelmed by all of this, but there are many small things that work together to make diesels get better mileage. Another thing that does not cost very much to do is to install a water & alcohol mist injection system at the engines air intake. It will cool the incoming air making it more dense, and it will raise the compression ratio giving you more power for amount of fuel used. It also steam cleans the carbon and soot from your valves and rings, which makes the engine run more efficiently.

[Dimuthu_4S7DZ]

ok noted glad to get to know these matters. thank full to you.
My Land Rover engine 12J which is non turbo type. I have once try to fix a turbo to it but give up the idea.
I remember last time when I remove the dry cell plates one side of every plate had black colour substant like a thin grease layer.
other side was clear.
My present HHO has got 13 plates 4.5"x4.5" (open surface)
upto how much i shell add more? upto like 21 plates by adding 8 N's?

To let you i have change my Lucas injector pump and replaced with Japanise Nissan DT2.7 pump. Here in Sri Lanka many 12J Land Rover owners like that fix that pump,it is less noise good fuel consumption, cheaper to have a used one than repair (need little modification for the timing belt) it has got a fuel control valve.

when the HHO is on the engine sound smooth,
my worry is i don't have a 2nd bubler to filter the KOH vapour!
Give me some time i need to re wire the unit with larger size cable.
Any idea of a using a 43KHz PWM
I try to add some photos next time


thanks

[Dimuthu_4S7DZ]

ok noted glad to get to know these matters. thank full to you.
My Land Rover engine 12J which is non turbo type. I have once try to fix a turbo to it but give up the idea.
I remember last time when I remove the dry cell plates one side of every plate had black colour substant like a thin grease layer.
other side was clear.
My present HHO has got 13 plates 4.5"x4.5" (open surface)
upto how much i shell add more? upto like 21 plates by adding 8 N's?

To let you i have change my Lucas injector pump and replaced with Japanise Nissan DT2.7 pump. Here in Sri Lanka many 12J Land Rover owners like that fix that pump,it is less noise good fuel consumption, cheaper to have a used one than repair (need little modification for the timing belt) it has got a fuel control valve.

when the HHO is on the engine sound smooth,
my worry is i don't have a 2nd bubler to filter the KOH vapour!
Give me some time i need to re wire the unit with larger size cable.
Any idea of a using a 43KHz PWM
I try to add some photos net time
thanks

[BioFarmer93]

Dimuthu,
That is good news about the Nissan pump, at least you can turn it down a little so that you only make black smoke on very hard accelerations. After you raise your gas production 1lpm more as I mentioned in a previous post, if your engine is still making black smoke then you MUST turn your fuel adjustment down some because it is just wasting fuel.
Why did you give up on the turbo idea? Just start gathering parts and pieces slowly and as you can afford them, it will give you time to plan where things will go and what will need to be moved. Do not be deterred if the approach you must take is somewhat unconventional because the turbo will pay for itself in fuel savings almost a fast as the HHO will.
Do not use more than 6 neutral plates between a + and a - plate. It will divide your voltage too low and your gas production will drop. In total you should have 15 plates, [-nnnnnn+nnnnnn-].
If you wish to remove vapor it is easy to make a dry filter with desiccant beads or crystals inside of it to absorb moisture, other materials may be used also, just design the container so that the filter media won't clog the inlet and outlet ports and it can be changed when it is saturated.
Try the 43kHz PWM if you would like to, but all it will do is rob your reactor of some amperage and make less gas, there is nothing magical about them. If you put one more neutral plate on each side of your reactor (6 neutrals) then you will completely eliminate the need for a PWM. Save that money for your turbo..

[Dimuthu_4S7DZ]

hi
yea i got your points, thanks. its a great thing that you have gain lot of knowledge on this.
when fixing a turbo do need the inter cooler function as well for the better air temperature?
i had a discussion with my workshop engineer and his openition was that the cylinder diameter is smaller in turbo charge engines when compare to non turbo engines. therefor it need to be well calculated before selecting the turbo unit?
I was looking into Garrette T3 turbo. its not easy as HHO hi.

My other plan was this.
I want to use the vehicle HHO unit when going camping to cook food. Do you have any idea?
:)

[myoldyourgold]

I want to use the vehicle HHO unit when going camping to cook food. Do you have any idea?

What is wrong with some sticks, 3 large stones, or a little pump up kerosene stove. I think it would be much easier than a HHO burner and cheaper. It's camping after all.

[BioFarmer93]

Dimuthu,
An intercooler is not absolutely necessary, but it is highly desirable, especially in an area of the world that is only 6-7 degrees off of the equator.

I do not like to refute the opinion of a degree'd engineer, but I'm afraid he is just wrong. There is no difference in the cylinder size of a turbo'd or a non-turbo'd engine. I can think of many of the same diesels that are offered with or without turbo's. Perhaps he means that a smaller diesel with a turbo can do the same work as a larger diesel with no turbo.
If you decide to not install a turbo, you can still cool your intake air with a water/alcohol injection system, it will also help with your power and mileage.
A T3 size turbo such as this- http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/T3-T4-TURBO-CHARGER-TRIM-50-A-R-63-AR-T04E-TURBOCHARGER-/250884066704?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a69db0d90#ht_3665wt_939 -would be just the right size for your engine. Calculating the size very closely can be quite important if you decide to not use a waste-gate, but using a waste-gate is almost mandatory for an after market owner installation from a safety standpoint to keep from over compressing your engine at high load & rpm. The turbo I gave you the link to above, will build good boost early and not run out of boost at higher rpm.
As for cooking with HHO, no. You will be running your engine to power the reactor to make HHO to cook with, very wasteful. Better you should make or buy a solar oven.

[Dimuthu_4S7DZ]

https://picasaweb.google.com/101094868872763958559/HHO#5649099717263676194
https://picasaweb.google.com/101094868872763958559/HHO#5649099720216640530

[BioFarmer93]

Dimuthu,
I clicked on the links but it says that the pages do not exist.

[Dimuthu_4S7DZ]

hi please see the photos
thanks
dimuthu

[BioFarmer93]

Dimuthu,
Have you done the soapy water test on you reactor to see if there is any gas escaping? I see a couple of areas that look somewhat questionable..

[Dimuthu_4S7DZ]

hi
no I haven't done the soapy water test. however there is no water leaks. but i donot know if the gas leaks. Will that be posible?
I have used rubber gasket having a thikness of 3mm +/-.5

[BioFarmer93]

Not being able to see any water leaks is a good sign- but remember, the hydrogen molecule is much smaller...

[Dimuthu_4S7DZ]

i have put soap form on the reactor and there was no signs of gas leaks.
the unit get heated i think the radiator warm air hitting the unit direclty.

[Dimuthu_4S7DZ]

When the HHO started working it load the Alternator. This will increase engine temperature about 5% than normal working temperature during the day time. I noted this by looking at the temperature guage.
With that engine performes better becuase of the diesel fuel.

The smoke colour without HHO is more black and with HHO the smoke colour is different than usual colour. it has got a light blue colour.

My 12J non turbo engine been fixed with a 76C thermostart.

[myoldyourgold]

Dimuthu, I would suggest you use more fasteners on your reactor. One per side will not give you even pressure over the complete gasket. What happens is that the plates will be closer where the one fastener is and cause hot spots and possibly other problems. You might see the result if you take it apart. It might be darker in that area. Hydrogen being so small is sometimes very tricky and small leaks are hard to find.

With the right amount of HHO you should not have any smoke at all especially after running about 1000 KM or so and in my experience the temperature goes down not up. This will depend on the condition of the engine though. Have you had your injectors cleaned and pressure checked and adjusted? Has the pump been serviced and set?

[Dimuthu_4S7DZ]

Hi Sir,
I am planning to re assemble the unit and correct things as you suggests.
The pump is a good one tested and fixed recently.
I don't see a significant improvement on Diesel consumption.
without HHO and with HHO running the usage is the same. only difference is less smoke when running with HHO.

[Mr_The_Carper]

Dimuthu, I would suggest you use more fasteners on your reactor. One per side will not give you even pressure over the complete gasket. What happens is that the plates will be closer where the one fastener is and cause hot spots and possibly other problems. You might see the result if you take it apart. It might be darker in that area. Hydrogen being so small is sometimes very tricky and small leaks are hard to find.

With the right amount of HHO you should not have any smoke at all especially after running about 1000 KM or so and in my experience the temperature goes down not up. This will depend on the condition of the engine though. Have you had your injectors cleaned and pressure checked and adjusted? Has the pump been serviced and set?

I agree with everything written in this post
I would add that the worst engines have an excellent eco-test, there is no smoke in the exhaust, no smell.
-You should look for the ideal amount of gas, a lot of gas does not mean better for the engine-so that two identical cars do not react the same to the same amount of HHO in the engine-it also depends on the setting of engine...
with HHO install just starting the game ... Only game-play with amps, electrolyte, the amount of gas ... :D

[Dimuthu_4S7DZ]

I have rewire the 13 plate reactor as below just to see what will happen.

I applied addtional - supply to one side only as below
+ I I - I I - I I I I I +

I observed huge ammount of current been taken, Around 40A i guess (not measured)
The gas production was doble than ever before.
The heating rate was faster, accordingly with the gas production.
I didn't keep it long time because the wires started heated up.
what if the reactor powered through a PWM as below, will there be more gas output?
- I I + I I - I I + I I -

[BioFarmer93]

+nnnnn-nnnnn+ This is what you should be running, the "extra" gas production you saw was steam. Have your mechanic turn down the fuel rate on your injection pump. Run a water injection system to clean the carbon and soot build up off of your valves. Check your timing, it should be about 1 to 1.5 degrees retarded from factory spec's. Did you ever get your plates sand blasted?

[Dimuthu_4S7DZ]

I remove the reactor from the vehicle
fixed fully charged 100Ah battery next to it, wired directly with short 10mm cable. Result was 3 times more output. This is becuase of the resistance of the wiring system in the vehicle.
The 13Plate reactor took more around 33A.
:)