What's the best plate configuration for me?

[cpaiin]

Hi! I've been interested in this stuff for awhile, and my goal right now is to make a torch. Anyway, like the title says, I'm not sure what the best configuration is for my plates. right now it's -+-+-+-+-+-+ (12 plates total). I was running it on a DC 13.8 Volt power supply at about 18 Amps. I tried measuring its output once, and it seemed to be at about 1/6 liter per minute!! By reading others results, this seems INCREDIBLY low for the amount of amps.

My goal right now is to have 2 of these setups connected to a 12V power supply running anywhere from 30-70 amps. However, i think a different plate setup might help a lot! If you have any other suggestions, let me know! I have a few more details about my cell below. Ask if you have any questions. Thanks!

Dry Cell
12 Plates
Stainless Steel T316/316L
Plate Size: 6 x 6 x 0.018"
1/16" thick gaskets
Electrolyte: Potassium Hydroxide (KOH)

[nst6563]

You could try -NNNN+NNNN-. There are many configurations to try, you may just have to spend some time experimenting with them. The +-+- type of config is known as brute force and normally requires a PWM to control the heat (usually generates really good productions though)

Here's some things to think about:
Do you have holes in your plates? Check out Weldon 16 (do a search on the forums) if you haven't already.
Have you done any etching or media blasting to increase surface area?
Have you passivated your plates?
What electrolyte are you using and at what concentrate?

Personally I use -NNNNNN+NNNNNN- with smaller plates 4"x5". Currently finished blasting and waiting to passivate them (need citric acid).

[cpaiin]

Thanks for the help! I can't post pictures tonight, but I will be able to soon.
I do have holes in my plates. I'll describe them best I can. I have three on the top and three on the bottom, parallel to each other. Reading around, it seems that putting Weldon 16 around the holes is a good idea. I'm not sure why this is though.
I have sanded my plates, but only a little and I guess sand blasting with nickel slag (or is it copper??) will do better for surface area.
I have no idea what passivating my plates means, so hopefully you can enlighten me :D
and the electrolyte I use is KOH with VERY small concentration. With the setup I've been using, it would draw way to many amps with even a 1/4 teaspoon per gallon of distilled water.
I've just ordered more parts, 14 more plates and the same gasket. Hopefully I can make this setup more efficient. I hope to save my other cell also and maybe use both at once.

[nst6563]

surrounding the holes with weldon16 seals the edges so no current can take a shortcut and jump from one plate to the next - and is thus forced to use the rest of the plate area to jump.

Sanding will do, a lot of people I've seen do it with one of those palm sanders. I've seen reports and youtube's of blasted plates and their performance due to the increased surface area. I did etch my plates before, but have switched to blasting as there is noticeably more area. I don't use nickel or copper, but rather just plain mixed grain silica/sand. It seems to provide a nice porous finish. (take caution, blasting will warp your plates - there's info on this in the media blasting thread too)

There is a complete thread on passivating. Basically it replaces/heals the protective chromium oxide layer on the surface of the SS. It's a very easy process and just doing a search here will bring up most of them. Simply clean the plates good (some use Acetone, vinegar bath, alcohol, ultrasonics, etc...whatever will get the plates clean) and then a bath in a Citric Acid solution (10% I believe is the "norm") - if not heated to around 160f, then leave in for 2-3 hours. Followed by either pure O2, exposure to normal air, or a bath in an oxidizing agent such as peroxide (I'm experimenting with this one).
Once passivation is done your plates should be less susceptible to corrosion and last longer while maintaining a high efficiency.

[cpaiin]

Awesome! I'll get the plates sanded a bit more, change/experiment with the plate setup and everything else you've said. Hopefully I'll be able to improve efficiency. One last thing for now, the holes on my plates aren't staggered. Is this a major problem?

In the meantime, take a look at the pictures of my setup so far (and don't make fun of me too much :P)
http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j442/cpaiin/IMG_1557.jpg
http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j442/cpaiin/IMG_1556.jpg
http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j442/cpaiin/IMG_1555.jpg
http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j442/cpaiin/IMG_1554.jpg

[nst6563]

I'm not an expert by any means as I've only been tinkering with the hho units for about 3-4 years...and have really only gotten serious in the last 2.

System looks good - better than the frankenstien's lab setup I have going in the basement.

Non-staggered holes - I have no idea. I see it mentioned that yes it improves efficiency, but the holes in my plates aren't staggered - just sealed the edges with weldon16.

A few suggestions I may point out:
It seems you only have 8 bolts holding it together. Nothing wrong with that, but if you get warping of the endplates or leaks of any kind, you may want to consider adding more for pressure distribution. This would minimize the warping and keep even pressure across the gaskets. The cell I'm putting together uses 14 bolts & washers + 2 bolts for power connections (it's 37 plates though).

If you're using basic vinyl tubing, it gets very pliable and stretchy when warm. I don't think the PVC based tubing does that until much higher temps, and the re-enforced tubing is the best I've used.

If you don't blast the plates, definitely sand them. Pick a grit and go from there. When I sanded I used 180 and 250 in patterns of /\ and |- (diagonals and horizontal/vertical). Now I blast.

Clean the plates with alcohol/acetone/distilled vinegar/etc. Don't touch the reactive surfaces with your hands afterwards. handle by edges or use clean laytex gloves (you can get like a ton of them at harbor freight for next to nothing).

Passivate the plates (use citric acid - easiest and found by most industry tests to be most effective - good place to get it is wine/beer supply shops).

Definately use weldon16 to seal the edges and around the holes. That should improve your efficiency a bit right there.

*not sure if the order of the last two make a difference.

If you don't have a flashback arrestor, get or make one (plenty on this site or google on them).

Above all...search the forums. There are a LOT more experienced people around than I.

[cpaiin]

Ok, so what exactly is citric acid? Something like this in the link?
http://www.google.com/search?q=Citric+Acid+Anhydrous&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#sclient=psy&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&biw=1366&bih=575&tbm=shop&source=hp&q=Citric+Acid&aq=f&aqi=g5&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=d934deac8855874e

[nst6563]

yep - that's the stuff. Do a search on the concentration of the bath, I think it's around 10% by weight.

[cpaiin]

One more quick question. If you look in the pictures I posted, you can see that the nozzles (or whatever they're called) are glued on. I used Marine Goop first, and on the top I have liquid electrical tape (the red stuff. I might have actually mixed them together, can't remember). I'm just curious if the KOH, or any other part of the setup, will eat away at these glues over time and ruin my water/plates.
Thanks

[cpaiin]

Alrighty, so I finally got the Citric Acid and had the plates soak. Unfortunately, I didn't think to look at the amount on the bottle and didn't think how much water I would be using so I ended up with about a 4% concentration. (pretty dumb move, but hopefully nothing serious) Anyway, I let it soak for a quite a few hours, more like a couple days. They are air drying as I write, but noticed that there seems to be stains on the plates from the Citric Acid. I only used pure, distilled water, so the residue should be all from the Citric Acid. I pretty much assumed this would happen from the beginning, but just followed the steps. Is this a problem, and should I wash it off with distilled water?

I know it's been awhile, and I hope my deviation from the steps doesn't negatively affect potential results, but I guess I can do nothing but accept them if they do.

Thanks for the help!

[myoldyourgold]

Sounds like you left off the rinse step. You might need to start all over again. Rinse it off now and see what happens.

[nst6563]

I'd suggest a re-rinse also, if not a cleaning with a vinegar bath, then acetone, then re-passivate.

From personal experience...if you don't get all the citric acid off, you will get discoloration from the residue of the acid. Not to mention that with acid residue left on the plates the surface will not oxidize completely like it needs to.

When passivating the stainless steel the temperature of the citric acid bath should be kept between 140f to 160f for a period of 30-45 minutes. Longer could have negative effects, shorter could not give a complete passivation. If you're unable to heat the solution then let them soak at 70f-77f for a couple hours.

Here's a link to some documents I've collected with regards to passivation. None of them are very long, however one (from the aerospace industry) does go into some good detail as far as concentrations, temperatures, and the resulting thickness of the oxidation layers. It may help you with any questions you might have in the process.
http://www.mediafire.com/?bm1jwwwd5z5ht


Is there a way to post a picture of what you're talking about?

[myoldyourgold]

I'd suggest a re-rinse also, if not a cleaning with a vinegar bath, then acetone, then re-passivate.

From personal experience...if you don't get all the citric acid off, you will get discoloration from the residue of the acid. Not to mention that with acid residue left on the plates the surface will not oxidize completely like it needs to.

When passivating the stainless steel the temperature of the citric acid bath should be kept between 140f to 160f for a period of 30-45 minutes. Longer could have negative effects, shorter could not give a complete passivation. If you're unable to heat the solution then let them soak at 70f-77f for a couple hours.

Here's a link to some documents I've collected with regards to passivation. None of them are very long, however one (from the aerospace industry) does go into some good detail as far as concentrations, temperatures, and the resulting thickness of the oxidation layers. It may help you with any questions you might have in the process.
http://www.mediafire.com/?bm1jwwwd5z5ht


Excellent and accurate information. Thank you Sir.

[nst6563]

Excellent and accurate information. Thank you Sir.

Thanks - The devil is in the details ;)

Speaking of passivating, I picked up my 36 plates today from being blasted and will be passivating them over the next couple days. I'll be posting some pictures when complete with the two methods I've been experimenting with. The blaster didn't do as good a job with the set of 36 as they did with the first example plate, but it's not very far off and I'm not going to complain for $50.

I'd love to get a multi-stage compressor + large Aux tank and do them myself. Heck I'd do other people's plates if I had the means.

[Sei Young Kim]

Thanks for the help! I can't post pictures tonight, but I will be able to soon.
I do have holes in my plates. I'll describe them best I can. I have three on the top and three on the bottom, parallel to each other. Reading around, it seems that putting Weldon 16 around the holes is a good idea. I'm not sure why this is though.
I have sanded my plates, but only a little and I guess sand blasting with nickel slag (or is it copper??) will do better for surface area.
I have no idea what passivating my plates means, so hopefully you can enlighten me :D
and the electrolyte I use is KOH with VERY small concentration. With the setup I've been using, it would draw way to many amps with even a 1/4 teaspoon per gallon of distilled water.
I've just ordered more parts, 14 more plates and the same gasket. Hopefully I can make this setup more efficient. I hope to save my other cell also and maybe use both at once.

I think your liquid concentration is too lean for generates more gas,
and plates should be in same gap even outsides also.

[cpaiin]

Ok, so I just finished passivating my plates and they are sitting in a tub of distilled water. Anything I should do next?

I do have another question. I bought a 750 watt computer power supply. I was planning on using that as the power supply, mainly because they are so much cheaper than anything else I could find. Since PSUs mainly give out 12 volts, what's the best number of plates and +/n/- configuration to have? I've heard something about 1.4 volts, but I don't know if that just means per per plate (so like only 8 or 9 plates in the system total) or if 1.4 volts is only divided up by the number of plates attached to a power source, whether + or -. I'm guessing this might be a difficult or just long topic to jump into, so if you could direct me to another thread or article, I would really appreciate it. Thanks!

[nst6563]

Make sure you rinse them thoroughly - do not touch with your hands - use gloves. Have access to pure o2 then hang them in a container and blow the pure o2 through it four a couple hours. If you don't have pure o2, hang them to dry - not near any other metals - for at least a day or two.


A computer power supply can be used. How many power 'rails' does it have? Depending on the psu design you may need some slight modifications. Some also allow you to adjust the voltage +-3 percent via pot on the circuit board.

The 1.4v you are referring to is the per-plate or plate-gap voltage. If you have 7 plates, 12v / 7plates = 1.7v.

[cpaiin]

I will dry them tonight.

The PSU, I believe, only has one rail. My plan was to strip all the wires and bundle the wires of the same color to a make terminals. Since I bought a 750 watt psu, which would give up to 60 amps, I feel that 8 plates might not be enough (though it's only a feeling, not based on anything I really KNOW. I'm afraid the unit might become too hot). Since I recently bought 14 more SS plates, would it sound like a good idea to use 3 separate, smaller PSUs? This way I would have about 20-30 amps running to each 8 plate setup. I would set it up so that all three cells would combine gasses to a single line.

I'm 100% open for suggestions. And thanks for all the help so far!

[nst6563]

There are pros and cons of the pc psu. Check the load ratings label on the side. +12v is really what you're going to be concerned about. Some psu's have seperate rails to power the motherboard and video card seperately from the rest of the system. There is a way to utilize both 12 and 5 volt lines but it would require the use of more circuitry to increase the voltage and diodes + fuses for protection.

Do load testing on the psu as well. Many show very stable voltages under average conditions but when a very heavy load comes into play the voltages start fluctuating - sometimes to extremes and even failure.
The load testing may also reveal that the psu has degraded rating in your environment. Unless you can determine if the psu ratings were tested in accordance with a "normal" room temperature condition I would drop 75w from it's rating. The colder the test environment, the higher it can be rated etc...

I'd stick with the one cell you have for now. Get it running as best you can - overcome any hurdles with it. Once you're happy, build another like it to duplicate the results and run them in parallel.

[jannypan]

The +-+- type of config is known as brute force and normally requires a PWM to control the heat (usually generates really good productions though)

[cpaiin]

I've got everything cleaned and am about to put it together. But I'm not sure about the rubber gaskets. Should I clean those as well?? And how would I do that?

[myoldyourgold]

Yes Clean them with alcohol or acetone and rinse them with distilled water.

[cpaiin]

I'll post here what I post somewhere else regarding a question I had. I might have thought of a solution, but here is the problem:
I just bought a couple bubblers and an air dryer (I have my doubts as to whether it will do anything, but we'll see). I'm near finished with my setup so I'll post pictures when finished.

I'm having a bit of trouble with the 'physics' of it...
The thing is, there has to be some sort of 'intake' valve on the bottom of the cell to let in more water, but unless I have that hooked up to my first bubbler, there's a good chance of un-even water levels between the reserve and bubbler. And, when I eventually attach a torch, I'll HAVE to close air intake to the reserve because of pressure build up which pushes the gas out of the torch at high speeds. If you have any suggestion, or better yet, a visual of pictures or even other peoples setups, it would help me out greatly.

That's what I posted elsewhere, but I might have figured it out.
I bought 2 of these: http://www.amazon.com/Custom-Hydrogen-Generator-Bubbler-Fittings/dp/B004W0DFF6/ref=sr_1_4?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1312514032&sr=1-4
I'm thinking about buying this as well: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003XXNBKW/ref=s9_simh_gw_p263_d0_g263_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0D ER&pf_rd_s=center-3&pf_rd_r=04FDZCQGARG40S4Y9ZP4&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938811&pf_rd_i=507846
Here's what I've come up with. I'll start with the reservoir that I'm thinking about buying. I'll attach a hose to the bottom right nozzle of the reservoir which leads to the bottom portion of the cell to supply the water. Next, the water turns to HHO bubbles and travels out of a nozzle on the upper portion of the cell. The hose then leads upward to one of the clear bubblers. The gas is then filtered, hopefully cleaning up a bit of residue that comes along. The gas then leaves the clear bubbler and travels up into the center, bottom nozzle of the reservoir that I started with. It bubbles up and out of the top nozzle through a hose etc.. With this setup, I THINK there is even pressure distribution between all the components. If necessary, I can then run the gas through a second clear bubbler, and then the gas dryer I bought to try out (or the other way around, since that might be safer in case of a flashback).
This was a bit long, sorry. If you take time to read it, let me know what you think.
If you don't understand, let me know and I'll try to clear things up.
Thanks! :)

[cpaiin]

One more thing. I'm trying to attach my nozzles onto my plastic plate housing. The hole I drilled is a bit too large, so I'm thinking of using some sort of glue. I first tried silicone, but that seems too rubbery and not strong enough. What would you suggest I use? I've got superglue, acrylic, the silicone, liquid electrical tape and I can get other stuff. I'm just afraid that the KOH will cause certain glues to deteriorate and mess up the system. Let me know what has seemed to work for you.

[Quebecker]

Try gorilla glue

http://www.gorillaglue.com/

[cpaiin]

Just got the gorilla glue on there the other day. It's really odd how it drys! All full of bubbles, and it really expands. I put some of the rubbery silicone around the gorilla glue, so hopefully that will make it a strong, waterproof hold. I'm about to get my reservoir in the mail soon, so hopefully I'll have it all setup and running by Wednesday!! I'm excited for that. I have yet to break open the computer PSU and try that as the power source. I've got the CORSAIR TX750 V2 750W ATX12V found here: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139021
If any of you know if this will function as a working power supply for a HHO system, let me know.
I also am thinking I should pick up an ammeter, to see what I'll actually actually be using in terms of power.
Last, but definately not least, I'm still in the search for a good HHO torch. I saw one online that seemed to have very positive reviews, but the people who sold them don't seem to be in business any more, and don't answer email. So again, if anyone has had a good HHO torch they can recommend, that DOESN'T backfire (of course ;) ) then let me know.
Much appreciated!

[cpaiin]

Good News!! I got it up and working! Seemed to making a good amount of HHO. Ran it at just under 15 Amps.
Bad News!! It seems that my metal barbs were touching the metal plates, and the glue holding them on melted off (also I'm sure it slightly contaminated the water since the bronze/brass (whatever it's made out of) was probably producing HHO as well).
Thankfully, the barb didn't just fall of and the water flow out freely. I spotted some dripping, and got the water out and in a safe place in time.
Well, I guess I'll have to re-attach my barbs a little more carefully, and maybe put some silicone on the very ends to keep a contact from occurring.
Any suggestions?
I'll hopefully get to post some pics when my setup is closer to completion, if anyone is interested.