Electrolyte & Amperage Ratio for HHO Converter.

[fortwnty420]

In my research I'm finding that people are using an assortment of compounds to add acid in the water for continuity. Some of these include Salt and Baking Soda..

In all of the examples and videos that I've seen, everybody just says the amount that works for them; then they say that it is a trial and error solution.

Does anybody know what the proper Ph balance is to draw 15 Amps?

Is there a ratio table, or, a formula that will will show how much amperage will be drawn at certain Ph balances with a certain quantity of water?

It seems that you can add anything acidic to the water to make the Ph balance go up? Could you also just use Ph Add solution.. Like the stuff they use for pools and fish tanks? Or maybe even lemon juice, or the acid squeezed from orange peels?

That seems like it would be the cleanest solution. And possible less corrosive than salt? (no crystals).

[keiththevp]

First off most people use KOH or NaOH as their electrolyte and these will make the water more alkaline not more acidic. Now that is not to say that adding an acid will not work, it will, it is just less efficient. There is a trade-off between corrosive and conductivity. Typically the more corrosive the better the conductivity.

DO NOT USE BAKING SODA OR SALTS that would produce deadly chlorine gas or other unwanted byproducts.

I have done Ph tests on KOH and NaOH solutions of mild to stong strength and they are all always a 13-14 Ph. So even if you have a low concentration drawing 5 amps or a high concentration of electrolyte drawing 100 amps the Ph is the same.

I am not sure what is in those drops for fish tanks so I can't tell you whether there good or not.

[fortwnty420]

I understand things a bit better now..

Especially I was confused when I saw that people were using baking soda as an electrolyte.

I learned that acid was used to conduct electricity in water.. wasn't aware that alkaline also worked and is better.

I sometimes use baking soda in water to counter-act acid indigestion.. lol so, I knew it was alkaline..

It's a shame.. most of the YouTube videos say to use salt and baking soda..

Also.. where would I get Potassium or Sodium Hydroxide.

[Bhart]

Ask for Lye it is used as drain cleaner. I get NaOH at Ace Hardware for $4.60 a lb container. Be sure to get 100% Sodium Hydroxide. Lowes also has a product but it was twice as expensive.

You can go online to get as well:
http://www.lyedepot.com/purchase_lye/index.html

[fortwnty420]

A formula for Amperage.. Where V=Volts, I=Amps, R=Ohms is the resistance measured in Ohms... V=IR so, Resistance we would need to overcome with an electrolyte would be: R=V/I R=12/15=.8 Ohms (12 volts(V), 15 Amps(I).

Do you know how many Ohms KOH & NaHo give in say a litre of water.

According to the article, you would have to have I=12/.1=120amps for a resistance of .1 Ohms.

He is a clip from an article I found online..

Let's start with the simple equation V = IR. (http://www.crscientific.com/electrolysis.html) The equation can be rearranged to I = V/R. 6 volts flowing across a resistance of 2 ohms would give a current of 3 amperes. A strong solution of electrolyte will have a very low R, nowhere near a full ohm and usually much less than 1/10 of an ohm. Thus, the value of I will be very high unless one introduces some more resistance to the circuit. Keep in mind that R for a solution depends on the path length, just as it does in a wire; electrodes farther apart in the solution will allow less current to flow.

[myoldyourgold]

A formula for Amperage.. Where V=Volts, I=Amps, R=Ohms is the resistance measured in Ohms... V=IR so, Resistance we would need to overcome with an electrolyte would be: R=V/I R=12/15=.8 Ohms (12 volts(V), 15 Amps(I).

Do you know how many Ohms KOH & NaHo give in say a litre of water.

According to the article, you would have to have I=12/.1=120amps for a resistance of .1 Ohms.

He is a clip from an article I found online..

Let's start with the simple equation V = IR. The equation can be rearranged to I = V/R. 6 volts flowing across a resistance of 2 ohms would give a current of 3 amperes. A strong solution of electrolyte will have a very low R, nowhere near a full ohm and usually much less than 1/10 of an ohm. Thus, the value of I will be very high unless one introduces some more resistance to the circuit. Keep in mind that R for a solution depends on the path length, just as it does in a wire; electrodes farther apart in the solution will allow less current to flow.

420, just remember that electrolyte is non ohmic which means it does not follow Ohms law.

[fortwnty420]

I'm getting closer though.. and learning along the way.

How is resistance measured with an electrolyte?

[myoldyourgold]

When you figure it out let me know. Being non ohmic it is a problem in a reactor.

[Farrahday]

Do you know how many Ohms KOH & NaHo give in say a litre of water.



It's not the resistance of any given amount of electrolyte that need concern you so much as the resistance of the electrolyte residing directly between the plates.

The resistance of an electrolyte is still measured in ohms, and Ohms Law does indeed still apply. The difference between the resistance of and an electrolyte as opposed to the resistance of a metal is that, if plotted on a graph, the electrolyte result is non-linear, whereas the resistance of a metal is linear (or a straight line).

All this means is that the resistance of an electrolyte is not a constant like that of a metal and will vary with voltage, but V/I =R still applies.

You can easily plot a graph of the resistance of any given electrolyte/electrolyser set up by recording the current and voltage, while upping the voltage in small increments. Using V/I =R, you can then determine the resistance for each recorded voltage.

Of course, should you change any parameters of a given electrolyser set up, for instance by altering the electrolyte concentration or altering electrode dimensions, then a new graph would need to be plotted.

[myoldyourgold]

Farrah, when volts remain fixed, concentration remains fixed, but heat increases and then amps go up how does that fit into Ohms Law? Temperature has to be in there some where. The electrolyte has less resistance when it warms up.

[myoldyourgold]

By this are you saying electrolyte follows Ohms Law? I am not an electrical engineer and can not express my findings is terms that would explain what is happening here. I just know by experimentation that electrolyte is non-Ohmic. For all you technical ones follow this link. You can then debate this with like kind. LOL

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=14718

[myoldyourgold]

The law is a law. And yes, the electrolyte follows this law, too, in terms of resitance. The only detail is that the resistance is not linear with voltage and temperature. It also has a capacitance (the plates) and an inductance. And at high voltage it will make plasma with negative resistance, and so on...

If you say so. And maybe we are saying the same thing in different languages. Lets leave it at that. It is really above my pay rate!! One question? By capacitance are you referring to back EMF or if not how do you account for the back EMF.


http://books.google.com/books?id=h-gDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA1005&lpg=PA1005&dq=Non+Ohmic+electrolyte&source=bl&ots=NgPRaV7cuR&sig=ZYMpSKDPip-dc07wSNX3QctwYW0&hl=en&ei=y_bBTfq3J-jXiAKGgdmtAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CE4Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Non%20Ohmic%20electrolyte&f=false

http://science.jrank.org/pages/2324/Electrical-Conductivity-Non-ohmic-conductors.html

[Farrahday]

Farrah, when volts remain fixed, concentration remains fixed, but heat increases and then amps go up how does that fit into Ohms Law? Temperature has to be in there some where. The electrolyte has less resistance when it warms up.

Yes, temperature will alter the situation, but not from the point of Ohm's Law. So even though the voltage and electrolyte concentration have not changed, the heating effect adds energy to the system, resistance of the solution drops allowing greater current to flow. I x R will still = V. It's just that the I and R have altered, one goes up, the other comes down, while V remains the same.

In just the same way the resistance of a copper wire changes as it heats up. But this heating up and change in resistance does not affect, or indeed invalidate Ohm's Law in any way. Hope that helps.

Amendment:

Didn't realise there was a page two on this thread now, so I answered MyOld's last post on page one without knowing of HHOE's responses. But he's right, it just comes down to temperature coefficients. R = V/I still applies.

[Farrahday]

I should just add that Ohm's Law is not a true law as such, as there are circumstances in which it completely breaks down. But it does work well generally.

Furthermore, I'll make an apology here and add something that I did not know or realise. That is, that an electrolyte does not follow Ohm's Law. Well you learn something every day!

That is not to say that the expression V = I x R does not apply, but rather that the wording of Ohm's Law states that the resistance must remain constant regardless of the applied voltage or current flow. Basically then anything that shows a non-linear curve of V against I, such as an electrolyte or a semiconductor (temperature coefficeints not withstanding) is considered not to follow Ohms Law... or is said to be non-ohmic. And I have to say in all my years I'd never heard the term non-ohmic before - even though I studied semiconductor principles in the distant past.

The main problem then with electrolyte resistance and indeed why you cannot give it a fixed figure is because it varies with voltage and current. That said, for any given values of voltage and current flow, you can determine the resistance from V/I = R. It's just that unlike a resistor which maintains its value irrelevant of current and voltage, as soon as you take the voltage off an electrolyte, the resistance changes.

Must be getting a little complacent in my old age! :o

[myoldyourgold]

I should just add that Ohm's Law is not a true law as such, as there are circumstances in which it completely breaks down. But it does work well generally.

Furthermore, I'll make an apology here and add something that I did not know or realise. That is, that an electrolyte does not follow Ohm's Law. Well you learn something every day!

That is not to say that the expression V = I x R does not apply, but rather that the wording of Ohm's Law states that the resistance must remain constant regardless of the applied voltage or current flow. Basically then anything that shows a non-linear curve of V against I, such as an electrolyte or a semiconductor (temperature coefficeints not withstanding) is considered not to follow Ohms Law... or is said to be non-ohmic. And I have to say in all my years I'd never heard the term non-ohmic before - even though I studied semiconductor principles in the distant past.

The main problem then with electrolyte resistance and indeed why you cannot give it a fixed figure is because it varies with voltage and current. That said, for any given values of voltage and current flow, you can determine the resistance from V/I = R. It's just that unlike a resistor which maintains its value irrelevant of current and voltage, as soon as you take the voltage off an electrolyte, the resistance changes.

Must be getting a little complacent in my old age!

Farah, me being somewhat electrically challenged appreciated your post and am in 100% agreement except for the complacent and old age. We are only really old when we can no longer learn. LOL :)

I went through this CURRENT ELECTRICITY LECTURE and thought other challenged ones or others who wanted to sharpen up could benefit too. The non-ohmic part starts at slide 20. All in all a good tool.

http://www.wiziq.com/tutorial/56814-REVISION-PLUS-CURRENT-ELECTRICITY

[AudiTT]

I thought I would come in here, pick up a few tried and tested designs and start saving. Ohms law is a very basic linear relationship between two variables, resistance and Voltage. The strength of current flowing between any two points in a circuit varies proportionally to the voltage and inversely proportional to the resistance. But this is just the basics. Temperature throws the equation in another perspective, you can be dealing with a positive temp' coefficient PTC(the resistance increases with temperature, such as carbon or metal ) or a negative temp' coefficient NTC(resistance decreases with temp such as semiconductors). I'm new to this HHO stuff, but I presume that electrolytes are NTC, as a hotter electrolyte will draw more current. Control of current is easy through electronics (such as IGFETS). But I believe that we need to get into the habit of metering tests and compositions so as to promote a synergistic effect between members. It seems to me as if designs are determined by pot luck.