Introduction - Me & My Spiral Project

[iPkti]

Hi There,

I just landed here, so I wanted to intro myself.

I bought year and a half ago a Volvo S80 T6 MY2000 (MkI). This car has a twin turbo schema, so two turboes are blowing everytime at a variable speed. This car has a displacement of 2.8L (2783 cm3), but the amount of dispacement moved, because of the turboes (0.45 bar max) is between 2783 and 4139 cm3, depending on the pressure procured by turboes.

I decided to install a drycell from hhoplusgas. I've choose a DC2000..... and I have run short of HHO production. So I am decided to start my own design, after seen a large amount of videos, having ammaninox as a reference. This cell will be additional to my current one.

I found interesting the approach of ammaninox spirals, to be more precise the ones using marine wire, but I am thinking about the approach of using internal concentric (different diameter) PVC tubes as chassis, maximizing the amount of wire (surface) covered by water+kho, using a shurflo waterpump, a pvc cylindric reservoir covered by a aluminium heatsink (same as CPU's).

Ammaninox left his coil approach because the more effectiveness of plates against coils in terms of production and because the heating of the electrolyte, and I don't know if my idea of cooling the fluid moving it with the pump might solve this situation, and the heatsinks might work, increasing the production.

What I plan is have 3 PVC tubes of different sizes, placed them sharing the center, and drill them in 45 degrees step and 10mm of vertical step, placing the marine wire in at 0º and out at 45º and so on, interlacing the + and - for having +&- on the same tube and swinging between each other, and passing the current from the inner tube to the outer one. The cell, as well as the reservoir, will have the heatsink.

A side effect of introducing a pump on the system is how to dissociate the gas from the water current, which forces to have a big water reservoir, and pumping the water to the bottom of the reservoir.

I don't know if anyone has already tried this configuration, but if so, I will highly appreciate your thought at the same.

My target with this configuration is to achieve 3 LPM and a current of 20amps.

Thanks and read you soon!

[hhoconnection]

Sorry to rain on your parade, but this sounds like a voltage leaking water boiler to me. Yes others have tried this design. Forget about wires and stick with plates. You need to learn about current leakage and volts per plate gap. What you are describing will produce very little HHO and a lot of steam. Stick with a dry cell and try to come up with a no hole, zero current leakage design.

[iPkti]

Sorry to rain on your parade, but this sounds like a voltage leaking water boiler to me. Yes others have tried this design. Forget about wires and stick with plates. You need to learn about current leakage and volts per plate gap. What you are describing will produce very little HHO and a lot of steam. Stick with a dry cell and try to come up with a no hole, zero current leakage design.

Hi Hhoconnection,

Not ruining my parade at all! Not that far! :rolleyes: I am on an early stage so any comment would be highly appreciated., more if it is documented. I want to understand and I want to experiment:)

All the stuff I have found so far is about plates, so there is a relation between contact area and hho generation, plus AFAIK steam is generated by high water temperature, so avoiding the water being heated beyond 50ºC will prevent steam creation. This can be achieved, partially, by making the water flow.

Increasing the contact surface is my target, so this will enhance the performance. Ok, let's assume coils are not the right choice, maybe some kind of thin and twisted hollow cable, but I guess this is not invented, as of now...

I've never seen my design before as everyone is stating the coil as an spiral, and I found no reference to a drilled tube used as a chassis, but I will take your word as a fact.

What about steel wool? I found some interesting projects at the subject. Have you tried with it?

Edit: i found this post http://www.hhoforums.com/archive/index.php/t-1824.html. I have found this vendor which offers 316L SS wool http://www.lustersheen-online.com/xcart/product.php?productid=16169&cat=268&page=1. Will bear this in mind.

Thanks for feedback. :)

[hhoconnection]

OK, I'm going to try and be brief. First of all you never want to have more than 2.2 volts between any + and -. In your design (and all mason jars) you are sending 12 volts between two wires. Everything over 2.2 volts is wasted and causes a lot of heat. A properly designed cell does not overheat. That is why we use neutral plates. By placing neutral plates between the + and - plates you lower the voltage between any two plates. Adding 5 neutrals between a + and - on a 12 volt system will lower the voltage between any two plates to 2 volts.

Again, forget wires, it's about surface area. The more surface area, the more amperage you can throw at it and hence, more gas. Forget about steel wool because you need to be able to have a very precise gap between your plates and that cannot be done with steel wool.

You really need to do more research, trust me you will be making a dry cell in no time.

[pwteng]

can you draw me a schematic of the one your talking about

[iPkti]

Thank you for your clear and brief explanation. Please, don't be brief. I like to learn. If explanations are done with respect, I guess no one is hurt.

Ok. On my current electrolyzer I have a 17 plates schema, running 12vDC and 15 amps. No matter how much KOH I pour into, I will never raise to 20amps and production is no so much, as much as 1.5LPM and I need 6LPM. I will have to stick to a lower concentration to avoid sediments on the plates.

My current electrolyzer is 12.6vdc, so that is, as you said, 2.2v on +, three neutrals and -, 3 positives and two negatives with three neutrals in the middle.

What I already know is that this is all about surface, so trying to maximize the surface will increase the HHO production.

If I cool enough the water (heated by the coil made of wire), I will create more HHO. This is not about to create a tiny 2m wire-cell, this is about to build a 12 meters, at least, long-wire cell on a 25-30cm long pvc tube casing, so that makes, assuming a 7mm marine wire as a circular base (which is not exactly and has more contact surface than a circular one) for a single 20cm longx16cm wide tube, a single calculation pop out that the area covered by electrolyte would be, at least, 2639 cm2; for that surface you will have to have more than 4 plates 20x30cm. The only issue is the heating, then maybe reducing the voltage, adding a second inner tube for splitting the voltage, PLUS moving the water and cooling it following an schema of radiator, maximizing the contact with airflow, same as cpu's heatsinks will work. With a Shurflo 8000 series waterpump would be enough.

And about wool, there is a way to keep a constant gap with it, which is enclosing it on a 316L sandwich way-mesh, with very tiny spacing (0.2mm), porous enough to allow the gas exit and not the SS threads..... I am almost sure that I am not the first who has think about it...

Can you suggest appropriate readings for this? I am really excited about it, I spent one year reading and watching videos, but now is the moment I have decided to build my own, but I want to explore more innovative approaches (maybe to go nowhere, but I have to be wrong to understand and learn from my mistakes).

May I ask you a question? is there any thickness stated for the plate? I mean, reducing the thickness we will reduce the weight of the plate, but maybe the current will be less, right?

Again, I APPRECIATE A LOT your comments. Thank you :)


OK, I'm going to try and be brief. First of all you never want to have more than 2.2 volts between any + and -. In your design (and all mason jars) you are sending 12 volts between two wires. Everything over 2.2 volts is wasted and causes a lot of heat. A properly designed cell does not overheat. That is why we use neutral plates. By placing neutral plates between the + and - plates you lower the voltage between any two plates. Adding 5 neutrals between a + and - on a 12 volt system will lower the voltage between any two plates to 2 volts.

Again, forget wires, it's about surface area. The more surface area, the more amperage you can throw at it and hence, more gas. Forget about steel wool because you need to be able to have a very precise gap between your plates and that cannot be done with steel wool.

You really need to do more research, trust me you will be making a dry cell in no time.

[iPkti]

can you draw me a schematic of the one your talking about

I will Daniel, I will... :o

[iPkti]

can you draw me a schematic of the one your talking about

http://www.hhoforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1770&stc=1&d=1303841111

Don't laugh too loud... I'm not a master in drawing, nor I don't have visio close...

[lhazleton]

Adding 5 neutrals between a + and - on a 12 volt system will lower the voltage between any two plates to 2 volts.


One point you missed and is a big problem with newbs is the fact that most vehicles don't put out 12vdc. The average is 13.8dvc, which really changes the formula for bi-polar plates.
At 13.8vdc, 5 bi-polars will be 2.3 volts per cell, where 6 bi-polars will be 1.97, and 7 will be 1.72. I usually run 14 cells in 2 stacks in the summer and 12 in 2 in the winter.

[iPkti]

One point you missed and is a big problem with newbs is the fact that most vehicles don't put out 12vdc. The average is 13.8dvc, which really changes the formula for bi-polar plates.
At 13.8vdc, 5 bi-polars will be 2.3 volts per cell, where 6 bi-polars will be 1.97, and 7 will be 1.72. I usually run 14 cells in 2 stacks in the summer and 12 in 2 in the winter.

I got his point. Actually 13.8vDC means that your alternator is pumping energy to load your battery, less will mean your battery is not being charged, either a faulty battery or your alternator doesn't pump enough energy... but this is another discussion. You are right, but I understood what he/she meant, to reduce the voltage placing neutral plates between + and -... If the car/truck is meant for 24vDC, then the alternator should pump should pump around 25.8 or maybe 26vDC.

[ultra_efficient]

i think you should make a dry cell with 6 neutral plates. dry cells are way better than wet cells :D

high HHO output for little current usage. look at the power supply im using and look at the size of the wires LOL they are not even connected properly(just twisted on) LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAnDjx2dWrM

[iPkti]

You did a great job. :)

What a large boiler you have for being feedbacking cells.

As per the computer's power supply, you are not draining more than 12 amps, but can you measure it and post it? What is your LPM output rate at that amps? How much gas will you get reaching the band of 20amps?

How much does your cell weights? Do you plan to place it on a car?

Sorry for being so curious... :)


i think you should make a dry cell with 6 neutral plates. dry cells are way better than wet cells :D

high HHO output for little current usage. look at the power supply im using and look at the size of the wires LOL they are not even connected properly(just twisted on) LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAnDjx2dWrM

[iPkti]

Again, forget wires, it's about surface area. The more surface area, the more amperage you can throw at it and hence, more gas. Forget about steel wool because you need to be able to have a very precise gap between your plates and that cannot be done with steel wool.

You really need to do more research, trust me you will be making a dry cell in no time.

Ok, I left the marine wire coil on a side, as you suggested, and started to "un-follow" you advice of steel wool.

I unfollowed your advice but improved a bit my approach, as you've suggested, improving the weakest point of the ss wool, which is the precise spacing.

What doy you thing about enclose the ss wool in ss mesh, with 0.246mm of inter-leave (for making the ss mesh porous) building a cushion stuffed with ss wool, and placing pvc mesh between cushions (see garden's pvc, or anti-rabitt meshes for trees)?

I mean, place the following on a stack, and wrap it building a cushion:

A.- PVC mesh, around 1mm clean space between squares, 0.2mm of thread thickness (this will be the "precise" gap between cushions)
B.- Stainless Steel Mesh, 0.246mm space between squares, 0.140mm of thread.
C.- Stainless steel wool, 0.03 thread, crafted using branded technology for avoiding cracking. Approximatelly 0,7KG of SS wool
Another B. (actually the other side of the wrapping)
Another A. (actually the other side of the wrapping)

As per my calculations, 6 of those cushions will produce same LPM as 40-plates dry cell, weighting significantly less (maybe I am running short on my calculations). Ok, ok... this is not a dry cell, this is a wet cell...

I assume there will be heat. I will fight it using heat shrinks, pumps, heat exchanger and radiator. That will keep the water on an acceptable temp. Maybe any circuit for activating the pumps by temperature threshold... but it's a tricky thing to deal with KOH...

[hhoconnection]

I guess you are just going to have to give it a try. Good Luck!

[cheapwatchesonline]

Hello, very nice to meet you. The Forum is the first time I touch, I hope to know more friends here, and his own eye-opener. Hope to get your help. Thank you very much! ! ! !

[H2OPWR]

Ok, I left the marine wire coil on a side, as you suggested, and started to "un-follow" you advice of steel wool.

I unfollowed your advice but improved a bit my approach, as you've suggested, improving the weakest point of the ss wool, which is the precise spacing.

What doy you thing about enclose the ss wool in ss mesh, with 0.246mm of inter-leave (for making the ss mesh porous) building a cushion stuffed with ss wool, and placing pvc mesh between cushions (see garden's pvc, or anti-rabitt meshes for trees)?

I mean, place the following on a stack, and wrap it building a cushion:

A.- PVC mesh, around 1mm clean space between squares, 0.2mm of thread thickness (this will be the "precise" gap between cushions)
B.- Stainless Steel Mesh, 0.246mm space between squares, 0.140mm of thread.
C.- Stainless steel wool, 0.03 thread, crafted using branded technology for avoiding cracking. Approximatelly 0,7KG of SS wool
Another B. (actually the other side of the wrapping)
Another A. (actually the other side of the wrapping)

As per my calculations, 6 of those cushions will produce same LPM as 40-plates dry cell, weighting significantly less (maybe I am running short on my calculations). Ok, ok... this is not a dry cell, this is a wet cell...

I assume there will be heat. I will fight it using heat shrinks, pumps, heat exchanger and radiator. That will keep the water on an acceptable temp. Maybe any circuit for activating the pumps by temperature threshold... but it's a tricky thing to deal with KOH...

Sorry to tell you this but you are fighting a loosing battle with this set up. With ANY wet bath cell you will NEVER EVER exceed 3 MMW. It does not matter what set up you try. You just can't escape the losses from current leakage. Any and I mean any reason to have to cool your device is a telltale sign of wasted electricity. It takes gasoline in your car to make that electricity negating your gains.

Larry

[iPkti]

Sorry to tell you this but you are fighting a loosing battle with this set up. With ANY wet bath cell you will NEVER EVER exceed 3 MMW. It does not matter what set up you try. You just can't escape the losses from current leakage. Any and I mean any reason to have to cool your device is a telltale sign of wasted electricity. It takes gasoline in your car to make that electricity negating your gains.

Larry

Thank you VERY much Larry for your comment. I appreciate it.

As the wool I am about to use has been processed and it is not a regular SS Wool, I will reduce the current leakage dramatically, compared to regular wool. It will be a processed wool in a way that can ensure a known density and electrons will find virtually thread barriers everywhere they try to go, plus there will be a mesh covering everything.

Nevertheless, I will like to face the error by myself, but I expect the oposite, going to the band of 5MMW instead of 3MMW. On the other hand, this cell might be too big for a car and maybe it might be more suitable for other applications.

I guess the gap between electrodes will be too small, and maybe I should increase the gap.

On the other hand I have in mind some additional ideas for the project for cooling down the electrolyte that might work pretty well, consuming just less than 1A in total. An small "investment" to make to keep the electrolyte at the correct production pont.

Do you have any documentation about using wool you can share? All developments I have found so far deals about wires and plates...

I will like to keep you posted. I appreciate your comment, seriously :)

Thanks!!