Apexi AFC's vs standard EFIE's

[ultra_efficient]

where do i start? ok the Apexi AFC's are devices used to re-tune your car's ECU/ECM/PCM(engine computer). it does this by changing your car's MAF or MAP signal going to your car's computer like a EFIE, but unlike the EFIE the Apexi AFC's has multiple correction points. correction meaning fuel to air ratio. here is an example why a Apexi AFC is better in my opinion, a EFIE has ONE fixed setting, meaning when you set your EFIE gauge or knob that's it until you move it again so lets say your car idle at 700RPM and with your EFIE you can lean to a certain point and its good enough to idle low and not stall out but at a higher RPM or at a higher air flow it would stall out so you cant have that same setting for your whole driving, but with a Apexi AFC you have multiple correction points. so you can idle low like say you are at full stop at a light you can set your idle to very low just to keep the engine running and when you accelerate and your RPM goes above idle you can set it to run a little richer so you don't stall out.

check this site under support and you will find all the manuals for all the different types of AFC
http://www.apexi-usa.com/

you can check on eBay or craigslist in your area for all the older type AFC because Apexi only make one model now and its expensive. i prefer the VAFC's if the vehicle allows it. i buy 2 VAFC1 just 2weeks ago for $50 each so they are not that expensive.

read up on the manuals and get to know the AFC. the pro's use it to tune just keep that in mind.

[ultra_efficient]

did you check craigslist in your area?

[Bhart]

I did a Craig's list for my state (Colorado), California, Texas, New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and the cheapest was $150 but most were $250 and above. I must of done 100 searches.

[ultra_efficient]

really? here in Florida i got a bunch of VAFC1 for $50 to $60. im waiting on the day a SAFC2 come along for $100 :D

[myoldyourgold]

I did a Craig's list for my state (Colorado), California, Texas, New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and the cheapest was $150 but most were $250 and above. I must of done 100 searches.

Bhart, It's like any other bargain you have to be there first. I have found them for as low as $35 at least in California. They are snapped up by the Honda hot roders. I prefer the latest Neo. Here is the cheapest AFC in Cal. right now that is in driving distance for me. I am sure he will take something less they all do.

http://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/pts/2315376655.html

[ultra_efficient]

there is a Neo close to my city selling for $250 :eek: but i don't have the cash to buy it now :(

http://orlando.craigslist.org/pts/2321540327.html

this is a good deal damit but i dont have the cash for it right now
http://ocala.craigslist.org/pts/2321632012.html

[Bhart]

Are the VAFC1 set up for particular makes of vehicles like the Volo are, or can they be used for any make of vehicle.

[ultra_efficient]

they are made with an additional feature to control cars with Vtec. Vtec is the V in VAFC. its just like a SAFC but with Vtec controller.

i use my VAFC1 on my 1998 Subaru Legacy(JDM), 2002 Toyota Corolla(JDM), 2004 Nissan Maxima(ADM), 1996 Nissan Maxima(ADM), 2009 Subaru Legacy(JDM) and now my 2004 Saturn Ion

the VACF can be used with alot of cars but to deal with two O2 sensors the SAFC2 is best in my books. if you only have one O2 sensor to worry about just use the VAFC1. cheap and does the job.

[myoldyourgold]

Are the VAFC1 set up for particular makes of vehicles like the Volo are, or can they be used for any make of vehicle.

Bhart, the VAFC is basically a map/maf tuner (adjustable) with a function for adjusting valve timing in Honda's that have variable valve timing. If your MAP/MAF operates in the range of 0-5 volts then it should work. Here is an explanation of what the latest Neo does.


The AFC NEO is a universal unit that can be used on a wide range of cars and trucks that have an air metering system that uses a VAF, MAF or MAP sensors operating within the 0-5 volt range, as well as applications using Karman sensors. There are some unique applications that do not allow for the proper functioning of the AFC NEO. If you are not sure, please contact Apex for assistance.

The advantage of these tuners have over a cheap MAP/MAF adjusters is that it can be set at a number of different RPM's instead of one setting for all ranges of RPM which most MAP/MAF adjusters do. The variable valve timing is of no value unless you have a Honda or some other car that uses the same adjustable valve system. I have always been looking for ways to do this cheaply without adding additional electronics but am still looking and testing. These tuners make it easier to find where the sweet spot(s) is/are and I use this info to find other ways to do the same thing. No luck so far.LOL

Richard seams to call the MAP/MAF an O2 sensor. What ever...........

[ultra_efficient]

correct me if im wrong for calling the front MAP/MAF sensor a O2 sensor, but is this a fact if you port your HHO in front of your front MAF/MAP sensor will it sense the additional O(oxygen) coming from the HHO and tells the car to run richer because it thinks its pulling more air than fuel? isn't this why everybody stop porting their HHO in front of their front O2 sensor(MAF/MAP)?. some people will get fed up of answering old questions but i will go over and over it for the sake of the few that will learn.

i have been over AFC years back http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=5328&highlight=richard_lyew&page=16 but only a bunch of people that just wanted to cuss you out and tell you that your system is not working and you are an idiot bla bla bla get you to the point where you cuss back and get banned. i told myself i would never come back to this forum and share anything but i cant and WILL NOT let a few bad apples spoil it for the whole bunch. i rather to block those bad apples and save the bigger bunch.

myoldyourgold thanks for pointing out the MAF/MAP voltage range, i didnt remember to do so. for the EU cars, if someone is thinking on getting a AFC they should get the AFC SELECT because the ADM and JDM MAF/MAP sensor is different on the EU type cars. and the MAF(Mass air flow sensor) is a MAP(manifold air pressure sensor). this is how the MAF acts as a MAP, the MAF reading goes into the computer and then based on the RPM and TP reading the computer can then calculate the pressure inside the intake manifold.

after using AFC's i have learned alot about how the car's computer operate. the AFC teach me alot

[myoldyourgold]

correct me if im wrong for calling the front MAP/MAF sensor a O2 sensor, but is this a fact if you port your HHO in front of your front MAF/MAP sensor will it sense the additional O(oxygen) coming from the HHO and tells the car to run richer because it thinks its pulling more air than fuel? isn't this why everybody stop porting their HHO in front of their front O2 sensor(MAF/MAP)?. some people will get fed up of answering old questions but i will go over and over it for the sake of the few that will learn.

Richard Sir, it is still a MAP/MAF sensor just because you inject HHO before it does not change its NAME. The O2 sensor(s) are located in the exhaust system. You calling the MAP/MAF by a different name is just confusing for most. Look at it this way if you went to buy a MAP sensor would you ask for a O2 sensor? I wouldn't.

[ultra_efficient]

Richard Sir, it is still a MAP/MAF sensor just because you inject HHO before it does not change its NAME. The O2 sensor(s) are located in the exhaust system. You calling the MAP/MAF by a different name is just confusing for most. Look at it this way if you went to buy a MAP sensor would you ask for a O2 sensor? I wouldn't.

im just pointing out that the MAF/MAP sensor os also a o2 sensor that's all. call it what you may but it is still a o2 sensor. i understand they call it a MAF sensor because it is ahead of the in take manifold and the back o2 sensor is called the EMS(exhaust manifold sensor)

[ultra_efficient]

Myold,

Yes, the MAF sensor in a sense it does detect oxygen/temp.

so its not a o2 sensor then? its a o2 detector? LOL ok sir.

[H2OPWR]

so its not a o2 sensor then? its a o2 detector? LOL ok sir.

Richard, The MAF sensor detects only air flow not oxygen. If you have a MAP then it detects Manifold pressure not oxygen. Only O2 sensors detect oxygen. I am in the business and I know this for sure.

Yes if you port in the HHO before the MAF then the volume of HHO will be part of the total equasion but it is so small that any differences will be negligable at most. Personally I would inject the HHO after the MAF but NOT under vacuum.

I have done many many tests as to production under vacuum and pressure. You actually get better production under pressure than under vacuum. Stay away from vacuum injection of HHO.

Larry

[ultra_efficient]

Richard, The MAF sensor detects only air flow not oxygen. If you have a MAP then it detects Manifold pressure not oxygen. Only O2 sensors detect oxygen. I am in the business and I know this for sure.

Yes if you port in the HHO before the MAF then the volume of HHO will be part of the total equasion but it is so small that any differences will be negligable at most. Personally I would inject the HHO after the MAF but NOT under vacuum.

I have done many many tests as to production under vacuum and pressure. You actually get better production under pressure than under vacuum. Stay away from vacuum injection of HHO.

Larry

so you are saying that koya1893 is wrong about the MAF being able to detect oxygen?

[H2OPWR]

The MAF is a Mass Air Flow sensor. It detects the total volume of air going past it. It does not differentiate as to what the air is made up of. Just volume. Changing the signal from the MAF tricks the engine into thinking there is less air entering the engine than there actually is. Less air calls for less fuel. The reason it alone isn't enough is that the O2 sensor will detect a lean burn condition and add more fuel. Koya's approach is the correct one though. Porting in the HHO after the sensor keeps the extra flow away from the sensor.

That is why the most common approach is modifing the signal from both so one does not over ride the other.

Larry

[ultra_efficient]

ok. so you all say it has nothing to do with oxygen and that additional oxygen wont affect it in any way? ok

[vrand]

I have done many many tests as to production under vacuum and pressure. You actually get better production under pressure than under vacuum. Stay away from vacuum injection of HHO.

Larry

Fast Freddy also used pressure from his small electrolyzer cell to feed directly to the fuel rail of his V8 engine truck. Around 45-65 psi cell pressure to the 45 psi fuel rail pressure line.

Here is his video from last summer where Freddy shows how he did it with his small cell in the back to run his V8 ICE truck just on his HHOi gas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZFleNJ2Jd4&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

There are other videos on youtube that also show bottled hydrogen pressurized gas going directly to the fuel rail line as the preferred way to fuel an ICE.

cheers
Mike

[ultra_efficient]

i took these videos today for another forum, but look im driving at -35% to -40% at up to 50+MPH and i can go faster but the speed limit was 50MPH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_aB2c0PaHw

and in the rain with AC,lights and wipers on. same correction -35% to -40%. i set it to richen to -35% when my RPM is over 2000
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmnOs9tC7UQ

so far from the time i installed the new reservoir with my fuel at 3/4 tank, i have gone through a 1/4 tank which is 3.3 gallons and that's gotten me 166.3. so that's 55.4MPG all city. when i first got this car and looked up the MPG rating from GM, it said 22 city, 30 highway and 24 combined. that means the highest i could ever get out of 1/4 tank of fuel is 90 miles if it was all highway. i bet if i took this on the high way i can get 66MPG or better :D

[H2OPWR]

Fast Freddy also used pressure from his small electrolyzer cell to feed directly to the fuel rail of his V8 engine truck. Around 45-65 psi cell pressure to the 45 psi fuel rail pressure line.

Here is his video from last summer where Freddy shows how he did it with his small cell in the back to run his V8 ICE truck just on his HHOi gas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZFleNJ2Jd4&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

There are other videos on youtube that also show bottled hydrogen pressurized gas going directly to the fuel rail line as the preferred way to fuel an ICE.

cheers

Mike

Fast Freddie has now dissapeared from Youtube. He was and is a scam artist. Even if he did make the production he claims it is still a long ways away from even idling that V8 let alone driving it.

You would at least think someone would research the amount of HHO needed to run an engine that size and lie about the actual needed volume. No reason to lie about something that would not work if it was true.

Larry

[vrand]

Fast Freddie has now dissapeared from Youtube. He was and is a scam artist. Even if he did make the production he claims it is still a long ways away from even idling that V8 let alone driving it.

You would at least think someone would research the amount of HHO needed to run an engine that size and lie about the actual needed volume. No reason to lie about something that would not work if it was true.

Larry

Fast Freddy's design still needs to be replicated by more people, but the point I was trying to make was feeding high pressurized HHO cell gas to the pressurized fuel line vs. a low pressurized cell feeding to an engine vacuum intake line.

There are kits to inject plain straight hydrogen bottled gas fueling an engine, by injecting 45 psi of pure hydrogen gas to the petrol fuel injector rail line.
http://americanfuelvehicles.com/H2.aspx

Richard currently is feeding his engine using a vacuum to pull out the HHO gas from his low pressure cell. What I am talking about is feeding his engine by using pressure created in the cell to pressure feed an EFI engine. Some say this is a better way to fuel an engine. There is more work to make a cell that can be pressurized but maybe it is worth it.

Sorry, I did not want to hijack this thread of Richard's by talking about the Freddy's cell.

Keep up the good work Richard!

cheers
Mike

[BioFarmer93]

koya1893 said-
Okay, as Gus mentioned in another thread I am the NEW guy as it pertains to diesel mods
Chief! you gotta read that again- I meant you are the man for the new (electronic) diesels, I'm the "old diesel" guy, you know, no electronics...

[ultra_efficient]

Fast Freddy's design still needs to be replicated by more people, but the point I was trying to make was feeding high pressurized HHO cell gas to the pressurized fuel line vs. a low pressurized cell feeding to an engine vacuum intake line.

There are kits to inject plain straight hydrogen bottled gas fueling an engine, by injecting 45 psi of pure hydrogen gas to the petrol fuel injector rail line.
http://americanfuelvehicles.com/H2.aspx

Richard currently is feeding his engine using a vacuum to pull out the HHO gas from his low pressure cell. What I am talking about is feeding his engine by using pressure created in the cell to pressure feed an EFI engine. Some say this is a better way to fuel an engine. There is more work to make a cell that can be pressurized but maybe it is worth it.

Sorry, I did not want to hijack this thread of Richard's by talking about the Freddy's cell.

Keep up the good work Richard!

cheers
Mike

thanks for your input Mike. ill make a port in the center of my intake manifold soon and put a regulator on it to start playing with the vacuum feeding on this car and see how it response.

[vrand]

thanks for your input Mike. ill make a port in the center of my intake manifold soon and put a regulator on it to start playing with the vacuum feeding on this car and see how it response.

If possible, also try feeding your gas to the injection fuel rail line.

This would require that you first pressurize your electrolyzer cell to 45 psi, which is the typical pressure for the car fuel injection rail. You will need to see if your cell housing can take 45 psi pressure by checking for HHO gas leaks.

Most pressurized cells are in cylindrical shaped housings, such as tubes, to equalize pressure on the housing walls.

Pressurizing of HHO/Brown's Gas electrolyzers are done with the big Brown's Gas generators on the market used for torch cutting and welding.
http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/machine/machine.php

cheers
Mike

[ultra_efficient]

If possible, also try feeding your gas to the injection fuel rail line.

This would require that you first pressurize your electrolyzer cell to 45 psi, which is the typical pressure for the car fuel injection rail. You will need to see if your cell housing can take 45 psi pressure by checking for HHO gas leaks.

Most pressurized cells are in cylindrical shaped housings, such as tubes, to equalize pressure on the housing walls.

Pressurizing of HHO/Brown's Gas electrolyzers are done with the big Brown's Gas generators on the market used for torch cutting and welding.
http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/machine/machine.php

cheers
Mike

thanks but i stopped storing HHO under pressure back in 2009. i MIGHT make a cell that divide the H2 from the O2 and MAYBE store that but i know what HHO under pressure can do *BOOOOOOOOOM* and level half of a 2 story building so i stay away from it LOL but storing H2 under pressure is fine. what im doing now is see how much i can feed the vacuum without the breaks failing, then port the remaining HHO directly to the idle intake port.

im not looking to totally replace the gasoline system but ill turn off my fuel pump at air/fuel ratio that permits it and if i can run HHO after start up ill still keep the gasoline fuel system as spare fuel like a spare tire LOL

[vrand]

thanks but i stopped storing HHO under pressure back in 2009. i MIGHT make a cell that divide the H2 from the O2 and MAYBE store that but i know what HHO under pressure can do *BOOOOOOOOOM* and level half of a 2 story building so i stay away from it LOL but storing H2 under pressure is fine. what im doing now is see how much i can feed the vacuum without the breaks failing, then port the remaining HHO directly to the idle intake port.

im not looking to totally replace the gasoline system but ill turn off my fuel pump at air/fuel ratio that permits it and if i can run HHO after start up ill still keep the gasoline fuel system as spare fuel like a spare tire LOL

Yes, the big Brown's Gas torches/welders electrolyzer series cells are run to +60 psi. One reason for the high psi is so they have a good pressure flow of HHO/Brown's Gas flowing to the torch welding/cutting tips.

Very few, if any, small cell electrolyzers selling on the market run their cells to this high pressure levels. The few experimenters that did use a small cell design at high pressure creating on-demand gas, have reported being able to run their engines on 100% of the gas (fast freddy, zack west).

Also, very little HHO gas is actually stored in the electrolyzer cell, just the amount in the air space above the cell water line. If the cell is tall and thin (like Meyers tube cell), then an area less than a cup or two of gas is in the cell at any given moment.

cheers
Mike

[jeffp]

I was interested in getting back to the AFC commments of how it works and applications. Since most newer cars are using frequency MAF/MAP do they work on these? I have a 2006 Chevy HHR with the 2.2L Ecotech.
I was not sure what would work?

[ultra_efficient]

I was interested in getting back to the AFC commments of how it works and applications. Since most newer cars are using frequency MAF/MAP do they work on these? I have a 2006 Chevy HHR with the 2.2L Ecotech.
I was not sure what would work?

my car has a 2.2L EcoTec and its working just fine

[ultra_efficient]

this SUV have 1 MAF sensor, 1 MPA sensor and 4 o2 sensors and still have to obey me!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SvyFREXNAw

[Roland Jacques]

Fast Freddy's design still needs to be replicated by more people, but the point I was trying to make was feeding high pressurized HHO cell gas to the pressurized fuel line vs. a low pressurized cell feeding to an engine vacuum intake line.

There are kits to inject plain straight hydrogen bottled gas fueling an engine, by injecting 45 psi of pure hydrogen gas to the petrol fuel injector rail line.
http://americanfuelvehicles.com/H2.aspx

Richard currently is feeding his engine using a vacuum to pull out the HHO gas from his low pressure cell. What I am talking about is feeding his engine by using pressure created in the cell to pressure feed an EFI engine. Some say this is a better way to fuel an engine. There is more work to make a cell that can be pressurized but maybe it is worth it.

Sorry, I did not want to hijack this thread of Richard's by talking about the Freddy's cell.

Keep up the good work Richard!

cheers
Mike

Hi mike

That link may come in very handy. Id like to know your thoughts on Alex's "Micronic fuel" reactor.
Do you think the 4NH3+6N2O gas will be safely compressable?
Do you know anybody that will try his plains. I don't know him but he seems credible

[ultra_efficient]

this Suburban has 1 MAF sensor, 1 MAP sensor and 4 O2 sensors but it have to obey me and my VACF1 hahahaaaa. it was 12 to 15MPG and now 25-33mpg :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3PgXO40qH4

[myoldyourgold]

Excellent results Richard. I hope they are accurate.

[myoldyourgold]

Ben the Neo is the most versatile. It is the most expensive too. Works on a lot of vehicles. The Vetc portion is only useful on Honda's with variable valve timing. The SAFC2 will do your job just as good. Just will not handle variable valve timing.

[Tennpenn83]

This is good information. Thanks guys. Apexi is probably in my future

[ultra_efficient]

Richard,

can you tell which model AFC from this link below is best for me to try on a 1998 I30 Infiniti with 3.0 V-6 or 2003 Town Car with 4.6 liter.

I would like to get my feet wet with these AFC for higher gain. thank you.

http://motors.shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=apexi+afc

use a SAFC2

[ultra_efficient]

Ben the Neo is the most versatile. It is the most expensive too. Works on a lot of vehicles. The Vetc portion is only useful on Honda's with variable valve timing. The SAFC2 will do your job just as good. Just will not handle variable valve timing.

not only Honda have VVT(variable valve timing). Toyota and Subau ect have VVT too and VVTi.
i use VAFC1 on everything i do but in some cases a SAFC2 would be way better when it comes to correction points, knock sensor, multiple O2 sensors ect ect.....

[myoldyourgold]

not only Honda have VVT(variable valve timing). Toyota and Subau ect have VVT too and VVTi.
i use VAFC1 on everything i do but in some cases a SAFC2 would be way better when it comes to correction points, knock sensor, multiple O2 sensors ect ect.....

Richard, you are right there are other cars with variable valve timing. Many manufactures make different versions like; MIVEC from Mitsubishi, AVCS from Subaru, VVTL-i from Toyota, VarioCam Plus from Porsche, VVC from Rover Group, VVEL from Nissan, etc. Honda was the inverter of a particular method though and was first in the CBR400 motor cycle in 1983. Porsche has the oldest patent 1958. Even GM has an old patent. Apexi VAFC1 was designed first for Honda at least that was my understanding and might have morphed to the others too. I have not kept up with all the uses or their current updates.

[ultra_efficient]

hahahaa good to see someone else know about this stuff. back in 2008 when i started tuning my Subaru with a VAFC1 for HHO correction etc... all the tuners laugh because they said the VAFC is only for Honda's. i laughed so hard at them i fell off my computer chair.

then i came to this forum and everybody had timing issue and i was like come on, nobody here tuning yet?. then people started using a bunch of garbage like volo and other type efie's.

sooner or later people will start using AFC's. my first post ever on this site stands strong

[ultra_efficient]

why a Honda?

[ultra_efficient]

i think you should get a civic that has vtec and efi. maybe a 95 or higher. first tip. record all your car's data before you add HHO and before you start leaning back. install a wideband MAF meter and a EGT meter to help you keep track of things. record all data, then when you add HHO the temps should drop because the car should be burning cooler than normal, when you start to lean back don't let the temperatures raise too much above normal.

[Quebecker]

Hi,


I looked at the manual of the Apexi Neo and I can not find where it mentions that you can change the values ​​that are returned by the probes oxygen?

Is it really effective in this case ?

Thanks

[myoldyourgold]

I sent you an email in this regards.

[Quebecker]

Hi ,

Me and my questions LOL

Do you think it would be an advantage of using the Apexi and EFIE together?

Currently, do you have a base setting for the Apexi Throttle Point used with a 4 Cylinder?

Something like that
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/6766/apexithrottlecorrection.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/18/apexithrottlecorrection.jpg/)

[myoldyourgold]

Do you think it would be an advantage of using the Apexi and EFIE together?

I have thought of that but have not tested it. It might work but I guess it will have to do with the ECU's interpretation of what it is being allowed to see. Since you will have both it will be worth testing. It just might throw a code though. On the other hand if you get it right it should work OK and be better than just doing one or the other. That way you can use the Apexi the way it was made to be used. All I can say is try it. Just make sure you have the wiring right!! For Honda everything is available so should not be a problem. In your case you can play with valve timing too which could be a major advantage.


Currently, do you have a base setting for the Apexi Throttle Point used with a 4 Cylinder?

No base that I have established all trial and error so far and not on 4 bangers. Richard might have some though.

[Quebecker]

Yes, some advice from Richard would be welcome ....

I think that Benjamin should also have some data ....

BYe

[HydroJim]

Can Someone make a write up on how to use an Apexi? I'm very interested because I've reached the limit using a Volo and would like to receive the full benefits of HHO. Unfortunately, there is not much on the internet about these things.

I have some questions that would be good to answer in a write up or a video or something. I think that would help people like me who want to use the Apexi but are turned away by the lack of information about using one.

How do they connect to the car?

How easy is it to tune with?

Is this like flashing the ECU or is it more similar to the volo in regards that if it's turned off, everything goes back to normal?

[myoldyourgold]

Jim, go to their web sight and down load the PDF instruction manuel. That has everything you will need except the fact it can control any 1-5 volt devise because it adjusts by percentage it will also control a 0 to 1 volt. It is basically a fancy MAP/MAF tool. After reading the manuel you will understand. When used to control the O2 sensors Richard might be able to help you. Send him a PM.

[HydroJim]

so is there still a need to adjust the O2 sensors? or is the Apexi all you need to use.

[myoldyourgold]

[QUOTE]so is there still a need to adjust the O2 sensors? or is the Apexi all you need to use./QUOTE]

Jim, I am not an expert on the Apexi and use someone that is, to program it. I do understand just enough to get myself in trouble and make some minor adjustments. There are more than one model and they have different features. The one I am using is the cheapest older model. You can control the O2 sensor or the MAP. Some have figured out how to do both but I do not understand how they have done that or if that is a fact. It might be because the devise may be able to control two map/maf as I understand. I do not have the time to go over the manuel with a fine tooth comb but suggest you might be able to figure it out. If I can understand it and just need the time then you should have a cake walk.

[HurstOlds]

Hey man, disregard my questions in the PM I sent you. I found this thread and it answered my question.

I can't believe it's taken this long for others to pick up on your AFC idea. That was the one MAIN idea that has stuck with me from your other thread, where everyone bashed you.

I have periodically come back to that thread to reread what you said in there, and to remember what it was called (Apexi AFC).

I'm glad to see that others are going to try this idea out! I can't wait to start building and try it myself. I've been studying this stuff ever since your old thread.....so it's been a long ass time. I've decided to start building and see what I can come up with.

I'll be sending you a PM with some questions about your setup, but I'll read through your other threads first, so my questions aren't redundant.....

[HurstOlds]

This was posted in another one of your threads, but I thought maybe this discussion belongs in this thread. Quote is from your other thread about your cell....


thanks and yes im using a AFC on a Saturn even thou people said it couldn't be done. and im using the AFC for the opposite of what people normally use it for, most people use it for it's plus side(+) but im using it for the minus (-) side. if you notice in my videos my MAP line on the AFC is deep in the minus, none of the line is about -20, even that driving test video where my girl almost crash, the AFC was at a flat line on -30 and still had a good torque.
today i did a 150 miles test drive with settings -40 from 0RPM to 1000RPM and -30 from 1000RPM to 3000RPM and still had quick acceleration.

everything im doing is on the (-)minus side of tuning. lower fuel pressures, just enough gasoline to keep the injectors wet. MAP line on the minus side. air flow above normal. temperatures below normal. smaller injectors. 4 tip spark plugs. high amp output PMA(permanent magnet alternator).
im porting 3 to 4LPM to a 2200cc engine. the specs for the engine is on the Saturn site or just Google it. i can get 5LPM out of this cell but it will get above 100f and i don't want that.

the whole HHO world is all about efficiency, no matter how little.

Hey Richard,

I actually have a Saturn that I was thinking about installing a AFC on. It's a 2000 with the 4 cylinder engine. Was there anything special you had to do to install on a Saturn? Just wondering, because you mention that people said it couldn't be done.

Also, when you install the AFC, is your OBDii port still open (ie...nothing is connected to it)? I looked through the install manual for a SAFC1 and it shows you just splice the connections directly into the wiring harness. Doesn't look like anything goes into the OBDii connector.

Also, in regards to Saturn, what kind of sensor does it have? Looks like the manual says you have to enter in either Hotwire, Flap, Pressure, or Karman.
Also, which sensor does these terms apply to? Do those 4 terms apply to the MAF (mass air flow) sensor? I've never heard those terms before, that's why I ask. (and manual says if you select wrong one it will damage engine)

I am thinking about getting something like an SAFC and installing it just for the monitoring portion of it.....since I don't have a working cell yet. I should be able to view RPMs, levels, etc via monitoring mode, right?

Thanks!

[Quebecker]

Hi,

I installed my Apexi Neo last night and it controls the MAP sensor, the VTEC control is OFF. I have not removed the efie.

Here are the initial parameters of the control of the MAP sensor

http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/1839/apexiinitialsetting.jpg

EFIE: 9:00 o'clock and 250 mV


This morning, major change in the reading of the fuel trim

BEFORE APEXI

SF1: from -6 to +7
LF1: at around -2 to -4


AFTER APEXI

SF1: from +12 to +28
LF1: at around +4 to +7

My understanding is that the decline in MAP values ensures that the WideBand (A/F) sensor sees lean mixture (too much oxygen) and requests the ECU to increase the injection time

I thing that I will change my EFIE setup to: 10 o'clock and reset the ECU

[myoldyourgold]

Quebecker, Excellent post this is great information. Now the results will be even more interesting. You have some very good skills. I will be watching with extreme interest. Good work!!! Later you can play with the vetc. There is some possible gains to be had there too in my understanding if you can cut down the overlap without loss of power.

[Quebecker]

Quebecker, Excellent post this is great information. Now the results will be even more interesting. You have some very good skills. I will be watching with extreme interest. Good work!!! Later you can play with the vetc. There is some possible gains to be had there too in my understanding if you can cut down the overlap without loss of power.

I don't think Carter

My VTEC isn't a VTEC-E (for economical). It's a VTEC for more HP and less fuel-efficient. I think it is activated at around 5500. Not sure about this apprehension

[ultra_efficient]

I don't think Carter

My VTEC isn't a VTEC-E (for economical). It's a VTEC for more HP and less fuel-efficient. I think it is activated at around 5500. Not sure about this apprehension

all Vtec works the same way, its just that the valve timing maximum value might be less in the Vtec-e than the regular Vtec but they all work the same
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcT_ZyY3F0k

[Weapon_R]

Quebecker

Finally someone has taken the plunge. Soon all will see that ultra_efficient (Richard) has been right all along. What I find hard to grasp is what ultra_efficient has long suggested has been ignored by the vast majority despite the fact that its common sense. Most device sold to control fuel for HHO is total rubbish in my book.
While ultra_efficient speaks so highly of the vafc there are other device that will do the same and some even better.

The point I wish to make is we need to think outside the box and not be so quick to ridicule an idea because it does not line up with what we have been told. We are messing with HHO which already puts us outside of the box.:D

[Quebecker]

Quebecker

Finally someone has taken the plunge. Soon all will see that ultra_efficient (Richard) has been right all along. What I find hard to grasp is what ultra_efficient has long suggested has been ignored by the vast majority despite the fact that its common sense. Most device sold to control fuel for HHO is total rubbish in my book.
While ultra_efficient speaks so highly of the vafc there are other device that will do the same and some even better.

The point I wish to make is we need to think outside the box and not be so quick to ridicule an idea because it does not line up with what we have been told. We are messing with HHO which already puts us outside of the box.:D


I totally agree with your opinion and idea. Unfortunately, I did not get a good result with the apexi.

What I find unfortunate is that Richard talks always about the results but never gives us the complete details of his solution.

What sensor is controlled by its apexi, etc..

Richards speaks of Open Loop but I think it confuses the Open Loop term that relates to the operation of the ECU when the A / F ratio sensor does not respond
Fuel System - Overview http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h42.pdf
Fuel System - Injection duration control http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h43.pdf
Fuel System - Closed Loop & Fuel Trim http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h44.pdf

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/5407/openloop.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/401/openloop.jpg/) Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)



:confused:

[ultra_efficient]

Quebecker

Finally someone has taken the plunge. Soon all will see that ultra_efficient (Richard) has been right all along. What I find hard to grasp is what ultra_efficient has long suggested has been ignored by the vast majority despite the fact that its common sense. Most device sold to control fuel for HHO is total rubbish in my book.
While ultra_efficient speaks so highly of the vafc there are other device that will do the same and some even better.

The point I wish to make is we need to think outside the box and not be so quick to ridicule an idea because it does not line up with what we have been told. We are messing with HHO which already puts us outside of the box.:D

thank you, it is people like you why i still try to share. the next most important thing people should be focus on is a efficient T.E.G system. i have now a TEG system giving me 109AMPs at normal when im driving but im building now a TEG system that will give me 400AMPs plus i have a relay system setup to use more alternator when the TEG system do not have enough cooling eg. when im at a full stop or when the cold side is too warm.

I've been way pass tuning from 2008, in 2010 i passed the dry cell with over 1LPM for less than 10AMPS. now im on building a better TEG system.

i still look back when i have time to help others that are still stuck on old problems.

everybody know my email and youtube, feel free to drop me a line

[myoldyourgold]

Finally someone has taken the plunge. Soon all will see that ultra_efficient (Richard) has been right all along. What I find hard to grasp is what ultra_efficient has long suggested has been ignored by the vast majority despite the fact that its common sense. Most device sold to control fuel for HHO is total rubbish in my book.
While ultra_efficient speaks so highly of the vafc there are other device that will do the same and some even better.

The point I wish to make is we need to think outside the box and not be so quick to ridicule an idea because it does not line up with what we have been told. We are messing with HHO which already puts us outside of the box

Weapon, I have an Apexi, an AEM, and a EFIE which includes map, cts, iat, controllers. I will eventually as time permits compare all three as they relate to HHO. My time is limited so do not hold your breath. Some of it will be done by the end of the month and I should be posting the initial results. The biggest difference is COST. $200 compared to $600-$800 just for the devices and not to mention an EGT gauge and for vehicles that only have narrow band O2's a wide band O2 to assist is tuning. To add to that you need a scan gauge or its equivalent to get real time data and be able to log it and then chart and study what is happening. This all is a major expensive and time consuming. After doing all of this how much gain are you going to see above using the cheapest device. Well we shall see. Of course there is a lot more than just these devices to make the whole thing work efficiently. You see what I mean? Cost compared to savings and safety. You can not have a check engine light on all the time at least not in a commercial product.

[Weapon_R]

Weapon, I have an Apexi, an AEM, and a EFIE which includes map, cts, iat, controllers. I will eventually as time permits compare all three as they relate to HHO. My time is limited so do not hold your breath. Some of it will be done by the end of the month and I should be posting the initial results. The biggest difference is COST. $200 compared to $600-$800 just for the devices and not to mention an EGT gauge and for vehicles that only have narrow band O2's a wide band O2 to assist is tuning. To add to that you need a scan gauge or its equivalent to get real time data and be able to log it and then chart and study what is happening. This all is a major expensive and time consuming. After doing all of this how much gain are you going to see above using the cheapest device. Well we shall see. Of course there is a lot more than just these devices to make the whole thing work efficiently. You see what I mean? Cost compared to savings and safety. You can not have a check engine light on all the time at least not in a commercial product.

Exactly! I believe I may have a way around this but I have not tested it as yet. In the meanwhile ignore the engine check and tinker away. Just don't blow the motor.:D

[ultra_efficient]

Exactly! I believe I may have a way around this but I have not tested it as yet. In the meanwhile ignore the engine check and tinker away. Just don't blow the motor.:D

i dont know why people always scared to blow up a engine or two, geez. i wonder how much of you ever ignite a 5 gallon container filled with 10 psi of HHO.

push the limits sometimes people, tune lean, tune rich, then tune just right. test the waters geez. so what if you blow up a few cars or engines?, its call learning

[Eastbethelboy]

WRONG. afc hack is as old as i can remember, this system is not reliable.
if you want real results find the right management system to properly DYNO tune your car. There are many great systems out there that can do just this.

example : tune pro, crome pro, hondata, aem ems,

These are just a few im listing.

check out moates.net for more information.

Apexi afc is a great alternative if you want cheap results.




read up on the manuals and get to know the AFC. the pro's use it to tune just keep that in mind.

[ultra_efficient]

WRONG. afc hack is as old as i can remember, this system is not reliable.
if you want real results find the right management system to properly DYNO tune your car. There are many great systems out there that can do just this.

example : tune pro, crome pro, hondata, aem ems,

These are just a few im listing.

check out moates.net for more information.

Apexi afc is a great alternative if you want cheap results.

for the price to result ratio a AFC is perfect. a proper stand alone management will cost about us$600 to us$1400 or higher but you can get a AFC for $50 to $200 and get the same or very close results to that of a stand alone management.

i use stand alone management in rally and i know the difference, plus a stand alone management is hard to change on the fly like a AFC.

if the stand alone management was as cost effective as the AFC and could change on the fly i wouldn't be using a AFC in the first place.

[ultra_efficient]

more and more people are learning :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rBW3mr05tY

[HurstOlds]

I commented on the video, but I just wanted to say good job again Richard on pointing people in the right direction. You caught a ton of flack for your ideas. I can't believe it's taken this long for people to finally catch on!

[ultra_efficient]

bump for all the new people

[Mikeal]

I like the way you think Richard.:cool: