Hho placebo effect... Lol!

[borescopeit]

Moderators, pliz stick this thread!

No criticizing off any HHO Cell projects are intended to be made by me BWT I want to criticize different statements and LOL at some testimonies!

We all know that gasoline car needs at least 0.5 LPM per 1L of engine displacement, and diesels do need 1-1`.5LPM for every liter though.

One of my best friends had a little 6"x6" 21 plate cell running on his 12L diesel semi, and reported 7.3MPG against his stock 6.6MPG fuel consumption with just max. 2LPM output! That is just 0.17LPM per ea liter of engine displacement. I said OK to that a year ago.

So, I decided to build my own cell. Currently I output 7.3LPM @ 102A and see close to ZERO effect. My cell does 0.6LPM for ea liter accordingly.

Then my friend, after being so passionate towards my project wonders why I do see no effect with my cell and the draw of freaking crazy 100A on my alternator. :)

Then... he figured out something... "There is something wrong with your cell, buddy!"

Usually I do around 7.3MPG applying all fuel efficient driving techniques to squize out that MPG @ 62mph.

I know the sweet speed spot on my truck that is around 70mph. I did a test today still applying my best knowledge of driving efficiently, and did that at 70 mph for about 600 miles on I-94 interstate from Detroit, MI towards Minneapolis, MN. Result? 8.4MPG - a dream of every owner operator. No additives, no nothing!

What am I leading my thought to? PLACEBO EFFECT is my answer.

About a week ago I told my friend: "Nik, I agree that when you started using your micro cell you definitely seen dramatical fuel economy improvement (around 4 liters / 100 km), but not because of the cell since it was not capable of improving anything... because you started watching your RPMs, instant fuel consumption reading, and finally your fuel pedal! This is placebo effect! You believed the pill and you did all of your best driving techniques to prove / fool yourself your cell works!"

What a BS (LOL) testimony, and what a proof that up to 30% of fuel waste solely depends on the driver!

When I bought my truck, the ECU reported 5.6MPG (last 100K miles) for previous owner, my ownership statistics for last 100K miles show 6.7MPG (17% fuel econnomy!!!). What a difference a driver himself can make!

To prove the HHO works in a particular setup you need to tuneup your engine + produce enough HHO + drive the same way you did before...


BWT 99% of experiments will include placebo effect since with something new in your 4 weeller or 18 weeller you will behave differently for sure.

I am sure if you see 5-15% improvement in MPG, be sure - you are takking empty placebo pills!

If you see 20-50% savings, then I want to congratulate you on a success!

[myoldyourgold]

Victor I can tell you one thing for sure that in your or most diesels with just HHO and no change to the amount of fuel being injected and a timing change they will never see more than 15 to 20 percent improvement. You have to add a number of other things in order to see the big gains and adjust the amount of fuel that is being injected and when it is injected. If there is another way I would love to hear about it and see it proven because I would not believe it. I have tried so many things I can not even remember them all. LOL That is not saying to much because I forget just about every thing except my name. LOL

[borescopeit]

Victor I can tell you one thing for sure that in your or most diesels with just HHO and no change to the amount of fuel being injected and a timing change they will never see more than 15 to 20 percent improvement. You have to add a number of other things in order to see the big gains and adjust the amount of fuel that is being injected and when it is injected. If there is another way I would love to hear about it and see it proven because I would not believe it. I have tried so many things I can not even remember them all. LOL That is not saying to much because I forget just about every thing except my name. LOL

I do for sure lean out air:fuel ratio through map sensor and it works, as to injection timing, I still have to figure out how to do that...

[astrocady]

borescopeit,

You are right about the placebo effect. That does enter into play. And there is the other side of that effect --- the driver notices more power and keeps check that on each start-up and going up each hill. The result -- LOWER MPG.

I do, however, disagree with the statement "...diesels do need 1-1`.5LPM for every liter. I have always used the general rule of 1/4 lpm HHO for each liter of engine displacement, and I get good results there. So for one of your test, you might want to reduce the amperage so you produce that level of output. The power to produce that 100 amps isn't free.

Just a thought...
Steve

[borescopeit]

borescopeit,

You are right about the placebo effect. That does enter into play. And there is the other side of that effect --- the driver notices more power and keeps check that on each start-up and going up each hill. The result -- LOWER MPG.

I do, however, disagree with the statement "...diesels do need 1-1.5LPM for every liter. I have always used the general rule of 1/4 lpm HHO for each liter of engine displacement, and I get good results there. So for one of your test, you might want to reduce the amperage so you produce that level of output. The power to produce that 100 amps isn't free.

Just a thought...
Steve

Hi Steve,
I would agree with you that 1/4LPM for ea liter engine displacement might be enough for light pickup trucks with max 6L engine, BWT for a semi with full 80,000 lb gross weight averagely consuming 5.5MPG (43 L/100km) it is not enough since not just engine displacement size under consideration but as well as the amount of fuel injected that has to be in perfect ratio with the HHO amount being injected.

As to 100AMPs draw on 465HP engine I do tests on, it it converts to about 2HP load (same as if I would run A/C) and extra fuel burned will be about 1-2 L/100km extra. I can try outputting 1/4LPM for ea L = 3LPM (40A) and see where I get with it.

Victor.

[myoldyourgold]

Steve you are absolutely right in almost all cases. The only exception is when you can severely restrict the diesel injection volume, retard the injection timing and then up the HHO to replace what is taken away maintaining the same HP. No easy task and not possible by most. To accomplish this you must add other things(negative ions/water injection etc) in order to get the same HP, at least that is what I found. It all is a fine line and balancing act. As I said before 20 percent is a good gain on a large diesel engine and doable by most. The best I have seen big diesels that are not stationary with straight HHO has been slightly under 9 mpg with an owner operator who is very careful and striving to save fuel. I have heard of more but with just HHO find it hard to believe unless it was a long down hill run with a big tail wind. LOL I am always willing to learn though if there is something new that I have missed which is most likely the case. LOL In Victors case he needs to up the efficiency of his reactor a bit and I know he is working on that. Victor I wish I had some of your skills!!

[borescopeit]

Victor I wish I had some of your skills!!
My wife tells me the same and later on she fights with me cause I am always busy, even at the church, getting revelations from God regarding my developments. :) LOL

[astrocady]

I can see where you would be right if you made modification to the injection timing as such. The problem I see with that is that if for some reason you had to shut down the HHO for some reason (or some component failed shutting it down), the engine would run like crap until you undid all the other changes. For most truckers that would be imposible to do during a cross country run.

[myoldyourgold]

Your are right about that. I have had more experience with large tractors which even though it is money when they brake down they are usually repaired right in the field unless it is something major or it is not far to limp back to the workshop. I am trying to solve that problem working with a tractor dealer who does the programing for me. He seams to think there is enough memory or what ever to store and switch back to the original setup if things go wrong. On trucks or any other computer controlled engine you would want to do something like that. On my Mercedes (non computer) it is limited to 25 miles per hour if I shut down all the non diesel systems with enough power to go up hills in low gear LOL. I have only had one problem in all the time I have been driving it. It is now taking a long rest do to its age and my lack of time to fix little things. LOL

[hhonewbie]

My guess is 102Amp load is way to high & probably why your not making any gains. Maybe you could modify your reactor to run more efficiently or reduce the load to say 40-60Amps. Are you running a stock alternator, heavy duty(high Amp,dual rectified,etc.)or axillary alt.?

[borescopeit]

My guess is 102Amp load is way to high & probably why your not making any gains. Maybe you could modify your reactor to run more efficiently or reduce the load to say 40-60Amps. Are you running a stock alternator, heavy duty(high Amp,dual rectified,etc.)or axillary alt.?

Your guess might be right, but the fact that I am running 465HP diesel engine capable to handle heavy alternator load easily makes a big difference if you compare the engine and alternator option with light trucks or 4 wheelers.

I had 140A Delco stock alternator that was dying for a long time. I upgraded it to Heavy Duty Delco 220A alternator bought from this seller http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-ALTERNATOR-VOLVO-TRUCK-220-AMP-14-6V-1-W-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem20b0e386d3QQitemZ14040 6654675QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries#ht_4963wt_945

The alternator easily outputs 14.3V for charge of the whole truck system and measured current consumption is around 50A. When I do hook up my HHO generator it draws 150A with my HHO generator draw of 100A.

You see here that the alternator is capable of feeding my truck charging system + HHO cell at the same time. In order not to kill an alternator it should be loaded no more than 2/3rd of its capacity. That means the 220A alternator should be loaded with no more than 147A when I am very close to it.

150A of load on the alternator turns out into 2145W (14.3V * 150A) = 2.88HP.
2.88HP is just 0.7% of the engine load. My conclusion: it is a joke to claim any load waste because of the HHO Cell draw at 100A.

Perfect HHO output for my engine is around 12-18LPM, currently I am doing 7.33LPM @ 100A. If I bring my HHO generator to overunity I will be able to output 12LPM @ a bit over 100A which sounds more than perfect.

Another thing I understand that even with 0.7% load on the engine my 7LPM might not be enough to recoup the HP lost for the HHO production, thus I need to lower AMP load as you recommend, or overproduce the HHO amount to recoup and benefit from it.

Another though was to hook up Auxiliary diesel generator on the truck and power the cell separately from the engine in order not to create any additional load on it but instead feed it with different amounts of HHO and see real gains.

Lets say, if I run auxiliary 6000 kW diesel generator (feeding it from the same fuel tank with inline fuel amount counter) I will be able to use 300A easily from it for as little as 4L/H which will add that 4L/H to my fuel consumption. At 300A I might be able to produce 30LPM of HHO to feed into the engine. With these numbers I might come closer to 30% fuel economy at will transfer to about 10-12L/H less 4L/H of savings = 6-8L/H.

Do you get my thought?

As to retarding of fuel injection, that is not good idea since it is not realizable in a long run. The adjusted engine has to be running with the HHO all the time.

What my solution might be is to install Methanol/Water Injection KIT (full KIT from AEG Electronics for around $1000) and inject just water or 20% methanol solution into the engine along with the HHO. It is a common knowledge that the MWI is retarding the combustion speed but HHO is advancing it instead. Having both systems tuned up and working in union will compensate each other and each system will benefit from another. Thus, I might be able to have my HHO reactor contribute in full power and who knows, may be to claim 50% fuel economy on a big rig?

Another thing I learned about VOLVO engines that these are very fuel efficient contrary to Detroit, CAT or ISX engines. Any testimonies I hear about fuel economy gains by using HHO are related to these engines, mostly Detroit and CAT. Never heard about VOLVO engines and ISX's.

[D.O.G]

Victor,
Just a quick comment on your load % calculation.
Although your truck can produce 465 HP flat out, it's probably not producing more than a quarter of that while cruising on the flat.
This means your .7% may now be 2.8%, probably more.

By the way, I also believe many people fool themselves into attributing FE to the wrong causes.

Pete.:p

[myoldyourgold]

Pete you are right and the bottom line is going to be the real gain which will be some where between 15 and 25% when you get the right amount (HHO to amp draw), unless you inject less fuel, change the timing or use other methods to get more out of the HHO maintaining the same HP.

[ultra_efficient]

hahaaa wow so now everybody paying attention to tuning when i was using a AFC years back LOL. nice to see thou