Looking for constructive critisism

[Bazarommcmullen]

I have designed a reactor around a pipe flange gasket. In this way I can turn the stainless plate four diffferent ways in order to have the ports line up to make for ease of wiring without interfering with close proximities of plates. The reason for the round design is so I can use inexpensive pre cut gaskets for 3" pipe flanges. There are some down falls I am sure. I am a newbe here so looking for constructive input. THe design will have 1/2"NPT pipes to keep the plates and gaskets in line then through bolt through the pipe using 1/2" hardware.

[ultra_efficient]

you have alot of big holes so you will have a high current leak. i think you should add 1 more N plate to each cell to help with the current leak.

[BioFarmer93]

I have designed a reactor around a pipe flange gasket. In this way I can turn the stainless plate four diffferent ways in order to have the ports line up to make for ease of wiring without interfering with close proximities of plates. The reason for the round design is so I can use inexpensive pre cut gaskets for 3" pipe flanges. There are some down falls I am sure. I am a newbe here so looking for constructive input. THe design will have 1/2"NPT pipes to keep the plates and gaskets in line then through bolt through the pipe using 1/2" hardware.

Baz-
Welcome to the forum. That is an interesting design and shows that you have been following along with Mark's build (Oshawapilot) but I'm afraid you are going to have to make up your mind whether you are building a Tero (bipolar) style reactor or a BioFarmer (unipolar) style reactor, as you have aspects of both in your design.
If you use neutral plates (bipolar) then do as Richard (Ultraefficient) suggests and add one more, but skip the 1" group dividers and the extra "+" and "-" that divide each group of neutral plates. On the other hand, if you wish to go unipolar then you need to understand that there are NO neutral plates, and the plates are arranged like this:
[]+-+-+-+[]-+-+-+-[]+-+-+-+[]-+-+-+-[]+-+-+-+[]-+-+-+-[]+-+-+-+[]
with gas-out and water-in passages in each HDPE divider plate that independently serve the group of cells on each side of it.
With very little modification your design could make quite a nice unipolar reactor, as the plate area turns out to be almost perfect. I'll try to sketch up a connection schematic for a unipolar vs. bipolar configuration here in a moment so everyone can be clear on the differences.

[BioFarmer93]

OK, this picture should help make clear the differences between the two styles.

[myoldyourgold]

Welcome Bazarommcmullen. If you stick with a bipolar design you will only need to add ONE plate to the whole reactor and get rid of the dividers to have a 7 cell series setup. The + and - connections serve duel purpose in each stack. This is one of the advantages of the bipolar design that keeps the size and cost down. One interesting thing might be proven shortly and that is if your plates are media blasted you can run higher volts and amps with little or no increase in heat. So if that turns out to be the fact then you will not need to add the one plate in fact you might have to remove some in a bipolar design and add more plates and less sets in a unipolar design. If you decide to stay bipolar and keep the dividers and have circulation for each stack separate, this would avoid a hot center and give your reactor better flow. It is very hard to get good flow through such a large reactor. Unipolar designs, to be effective and remain unipolar, have to be separated and thus solves most of the flow problems.

In my opinion the jury is still out on the unipolar plate design compared with the bioplar design. If all things are equal and the bipolar design is built right I suspect there will be very little difference. The plate design and preparation I suspect will have more to do with it. I will say this for sure that the unipolar design is easier to get current leakage down so in most cases is more efficient. There is a lot of testing still needed to confirm all of this and is on going right know. To what I have seen so far there is not much difference but the unipolar design is more efficient for some but increases the size and expensive of the build.

After saying all of that I think if you follow Bio's unipolar design you will be very satisfied and have a more efficient reactor than if you went with the design you presented.

Remember the reactor is only half the battle. How you use the HHO and how much HHO etc is where the real problems are in order to get something more than just a clean exhaust.

[lhazleton]

Gus,
Very nice drawing!! You've got way too much time on your hands...:D

Carter,
How ya doing? Haven't seen you much lately!:confused:

[BioFarmer93]

Thanks Lee,
It was definitely a slow one at work today until an hour before quitting time- then all hell broke loose... But that's the way it goes, 0-120 in 2.3 sec.

[Bazarommcmullen]

Thanks for all the rapid response. I have read them and researched each answer to fully understand before replying. So if i am understanding correctly the desighn of the Unipolar cell would have the features bullet pointed below.
(1)Uni polar would be made of 7 reactors all hydraulicly isolated except for a common resovoir. Hydrogen and inlet water never mixes till resovoir.
(2)Uni polar divides the supply voltage evenly amongst all 7 reactors. Power flows from one cell through to the next via interconnecting wiring or jumpers 12 / 7 == 1.714 volt or 14 volt / 7 == 2 volt Voltage drop across each reactor should be between 1.7 to 14 volts providing I size feeder wires properly
(3)Next important was teh design of .25 amps per Sq.in. Doubled because of unipolar design so went with the 10 sq.in. per plate target.
(4) 60 amps /.25A == 240 Sq.In. 240*2 ==480 Sq Inches pi R Sq == A
1.175 * 1.75 * 3.14 ==9.62 Sq.In. * 7 plates == 67.34Sq.In per reactor * 7reactors ==471.43 Sq.In totla
471.43/2==*.25A==58.93A
(4)Voltage is divide by the number of reactor chambers as each reactor is electricly seriesed by the electrolite. The Cells in each reactor are parallelled banks of positives or negatives.

Now all I need is to modify my seperator porting a bit to isolate electrolite and I think I got it.

Question?
I was thinking of running a potentiometer linked to my accelerator pedal to alter a PWM. Of course baby steps but is this worth looking into or should I also just run all or nothing do to the efficiency and engineering that is incorporated into this cell.

Question?
If I would run a Bipolar design with neutrals... then would I then need to cut my total surface area in half? I may want to build the bipolar first because the initial plate cost and gaskets would be half. Then after things get rolling I could always turn my design into a unipolar with seperating plates. THat way I am producing and using HHO in my truck sooner while I make hte additional components for the seperting plates and the additional gaskets.

[BioFarmer93]

Baz,
I don't know that a potentiometer would really be necessary, maybe just an on-off switch tied to the pedal for anything above maybe 1k rpm?

As to your second question, I would not reverse engineer that way based on a unipolar design, as I arrived at the "double the area" concept through observation, not documentation. Myoldyourgold and lhazleton are your bipolar gurus, and have the insight necessary to guide you to an appropriate choice for wet area in a bipolar reactor.

[Bazarommcmullen]

Currently I am looking at gasket material as this can also add up to cost. The stainless is a constant you need it regardless. So I keep looking at the most economical gasket solutions then I am going to design build around that. So far I have considered
Pipe Flange gaskets. Very large and waste a lot of stainless to get outside the gasket surface for electode connection. Waste of stainless material. also round which causes more scrap in the stainless vs. rectangle.

Next I considered 5" air filter gasket. Very cheap but again round design and still over 1:00 a piece.

Next Spread bore carburator gasket. Nice Square dimensions with radiused corners. They have been averaging 1.50 ea. trying to get pricing for bulk.

Next I have looked at taking blank CD'd and cuttin the center out usind lathe. I have lathe in my garage. The other reason I have been considering round designs. I can easily machine bulk heads and seperators

Next I have looked at coduit body gaskets. 2"c conduit body with the center cut out. Seems economical but once you get over 1" in size the prices seem to rise tenfold

Rubber roofing. I have some and I think this is where i am going to go. Looking at making jig to cut out using a roro zip. Also .065" thickness seems to be ideal thickness.

Next I have considered stamping my own gaskets. I have a 12 ton arbor press and I can make a die and try to stamp various materials. Since I work in asteel fab shop I have access to a lot of material for patterning.

[BioFarmer93]

You seemed to already have determined the shape and size so I left that part alone. That being said then, yes, round is the most wasteful shape. .04" black EPDM pond liner from Home Depot is very inexpensive and if you can make your own die cutting form then you'll probably be a popular guy around here. I thought you were going round because you had an abundance of fittings and gaskets.

[myoldyourgold]

Here is some ideas for size. If space is not being taken into consideration I would suggest a 4 X 8 inch plate where the bubbles only have approximately 3 inches to get out. This gives you about 26 square inches of active area on one side of one plate. Duel exit ports and single alternating input ports. All ports insulated with Weldon 16. This should work well with unipolar or bipolar setups. I have some test data supporting this size of plate but not as much as a 6 X 6 and 3 X 6 sized plate. All the new reactors I well be testing will be 4 X 8 unless I am building a small unit and then it will be 3 X 6. Some applications only need 2 lpm or less and a 3 X 6 two stack efficient reactor is more than enough. To increase the production with a bipolar setup you just add stacks or another reactor. With a unipolar you add plates to each set. All this has its limits based on flow and the thermodynamics of the reactor and plate design.

[koya1893]

Here is some ideas for size. If space is not being taken into consideration I would suggest a 4 X 8 inch plate where the bubbles only have approximately 3 inches to get out. This gives you about 26 square inches of active area on one side of one plate. Duel exit ports and single alternating input ports. All ports insulated with Weldon 16. This should work well with unipolar or bipolar setups. I have some test data supporting this size of plate but not as much as a 6 X 6 and 3 X 6 sized plate. All the new reactors I well be testing will be 4 X 8 unless I am building a small unit and then it will be 3 X 6. Some applications only need 2 lpm or less and a 3 X 6 two stack efficient reactor is more than enough. To increase the production with a bipolar setup you just add stacks or another reactor. With a unipolar you add plates to each set. All this has its limits based on flow and the thermodynamics of the reactor and plate design.

Myold,

Your 3 X 6 two stack cell is what I have on the vette. For small application this set up is ideal specially if room is an issue as it is on the Vette. Also, glad to see the Weldon 16 is really catching on.

[lhazleton]

Right you are, Ben. The Weldon 16 works very well if applied correctly to a media blasted surface. However, as many of us have found out the hard way, if applied to plates that have been merely cross-sanded, it's gonna fall off eventually and make a nice mess!:mad:

[Bhart]

Lee, I can attest to that. I glass beaded my plates and the Weld-on 16 still came off. Sand blasting is essential.

[Bazarommcmullen]

What is the Weldon 16?
I am going to be playing with gasket making. Yesterday I made a 7 plate bipolar 3x5 with some 11ga 309 I had laying around. Yesterday I picked up a sheet of 304 for 15.00 at a scrap yard. Nobody seems to have 316 in stock and I would have to buy an entire sheet. What are the downfalls of 316 bs 304. I also have several sheets of chrome plated steel. Anyone ever try this material?

[lhazleton]

Baz,
Weldon 16 is a really good solvent cement made for acrylic. It's non-conductive, so it works well to prevent current leakage around the e/lyte and gas holes in the plates. If the plates aren't media-blasted, it won't stick.
304 will work, but it won't last as long as 316L due to the higher iron content. I've been using 304 for 2 years now due to cost and availability. Eventually, I'll do a build with 316L, but not until I have everything perfected.
Gaskets are simple to make. Just go to Home Depot and get some of their black 'pond liner'. For ten bucks, you'll have enough material to do several builds.:D

[charliebrumfield]

Question?
I was thinking of running a potentiometer linked to my accelerator pedal to alter a PWM. Of course baby steps but is this worth looking into or should I also just run all or nothing do to the efficiency and engineering that is incorporated into this cell.


do it. you are on the right track. traditionally every one sets their cells up to run at peak power making max hho all the time. that's essentially like running your car at WOT at all times. it's much more efficient to tailor the hho output from your reactor to what the engine is currently demanding. however your will need more than just a potentiometer. i think you are better off setting up something that adjust the hho's output based on the map or maf sensor as that will tell you how much air your engine is demanding and you can increase or decrease your hho output to keep the air/hho ratio you've decided to use

[Bazarommcmullen]

I ordered my 316 plates yesterday from a local vendor. Getting them laser cut out of 16ga. Will have them in 10 days. That is if I am in town to pick them up. I will be traveling the next few weeks for work. Hopefully this weekend I will start bulkheads and gaskets. I am using biofarmers uni polar design. Hope he doesn't mind.

[myoldyourgold]

I have mentioned this before but here it is again. Turn your reactor off at idle. What happens at idle is the O2 sensor sees way to much O and after a few times of this it starts to add more fuel to compensate. It also lets your alternator take a brake saving fuel at the same time. It is like running your AC while idling uses more gas than when it is off. A lot of cars turn off the AC for short bits when idling to save gas. You do not need much if any HHO at idle. The reactor keeps producing HHO in decreasing amounts for some time after it is shut off so if you are not idling for long there will still be some HHO just a lot less. There are a number ways to do this, and the one I like is a voltage sensing switch that is adjustable. At idle most cars are not putting out the normal 13.8 to 14.1 volts but something less. When the switch senses the drop in voltage it shuts off the reactor. It also will not come on until the alternator is producing 13.8 volts or what ever you set it at. You can also use a mechanical switch on the accelerator, or get very tricky and with the right electronics use rpm to turn it on and off.

[BioFarmer93]

I ordered my 316 plates yesterday from a local vendor. Getting them laser cut out of 16ga. Will have them in 10 days. That is if I am in town to pick them up. I will be traveling the next few weeks for work. Hopefully this weekend I will start bulkheads and gaskets. I am using biofarmers uni polar design. Hope he doesn't mind.

Nah, he doesn't mind...;)

[Bazarommcmullen]

Thanks for the heads up on the voltage sensing switch. Note well taken. Remember my 6.5 does not have a MAF nor does it have an O2 Sensor. But I will have the reactor on a relay from the OPS which also runs my lift pump. This ensures I have oil pressure (motor running). Next I think will be a boost pressure switch as this is the most simplest for me. Motor makes no boost at idle. So off idle like around 3 PSI + I'll probably bring in the HHO. Currently I am running max boost around 15PSI. I may tune this back to around 12 or so.

[genegem]

Your design is very interesting. I am using a square design. Any way I used pond liner material to start with, but have found standard clear vinyl material available at the large fabric stores. It is available in thicknesses of .020, .030, .040 and .060. I am building a cell now with the .030 thickness material. I am going to build another one with the .020 thickness material. If I understand the way the system works, the closer together the plates are, the better the operation. I will see!!!

I am using rip stop nylon as a membrain so I can get a seperator cell to use hydrogen only to the engine.
I have attached two drawings of my cell design.