New To HHO. Got Questions About Plate Material and Electrolytes

[charliebrumfield]

so i'm new to hho. well i say new. i've never built a reactor but i've been reading and lurking different forums since around '08. now i think i'm comfortable enough with the technology and that reactors are now just on the edge of becoming efficient enough to offer some real benefits in the automotive world in addition to making some really cool torches. which are much safer than having bottle of explosive/toxic gas hanging around in the garage. (oxy acetylene, i'm looking at you)

but before i get to my questions. let me give you a little background. i run an internet based automotive enthusiast show called burnout radio (http://www.burnoutradio.com). last week one of our listeners wrote in and asked us to talk about the use of hydrogen as a fuel source. which got me thinking about hho or hydroxy reactors. i think they are a crucial stepping stone to fully hydrogen powered cars, be they ICE engines burning straight hydrogen or some kind of fuel cell car. hydrogen is the perfect fuel and electrolysis is the best way i can think of to make that fuel viable.

so my goal is two part. first we are going to build a test reactor which will be turned in to a hydrogen torch as a proof of concept. second we will either be buying or building a reactor to install on our 1991 Mazda Miata project car. we are currently filming a resto/mod series of episodes for a new show we are airing called car care 101 (http://www.carcare101.info). so we think it would be a perfect fit to try and edge out a few more mpg's during the build process.

both of our shows are aimed at the main stream automotive enthusiast, not your stereotypical alternative fuels junkie, so it will be interesting to see what they have to say about a technology that has long been plagued by people trying to sell miracle "run your car on water" kits and has earned a snake oil reputation as a result. we will be publishing all our results on the show. as well as a fully documented build diary. so we'll see what if any gains can be made by todays more efficient dry cell reactors.

ok now that's out of the way. lets get to the questions at hand.

1: Plate Materials
2: Electrolyte

What materials make the best plates to use in the reactor? From what i've gathered Stainless Steel of the 316L variety is the most popular but it can release hexavalent chromium. So now Titanium is being touted as the greatest thing since sliced bread. and then i keep hearing grumblings about nickel plates, but i have yet to find someone who has actually used them. So cost aside (no platinum is not in my budget, we are building a miata not a ferrari after all.) which plates should i use to build the test reactor? Which ones are going to last the longest, and produce the best results? (i.e. the most efficient)

Electrolytes can be some down right nasty stuff. But it seems everyone has settle on using either KOH or NaOH. as their electolyte of choice. neither of which are that caustic in the grand scheme of things. meaning they won't instantly eat your face if you accidentally spill some. i'm leaning towards KOH as from what i have read is does not discolor the water and it tends to stay in the reactor solution as opposed to out gassing with the HHO. Which is a big plus, as i do not want to be sucking anything in to the intake manifold that could cause chemical reactions with the engine oils or internals.

so that it for now guys. in short my questions are:

which plate material - 316L SS | Ti | Ni
which electolyte - KOH | NaOH

[BioFarmer93]

Media blasted Ni, 28%KOH electrolyte, unipolar configuration

[oicu812]

I totally aggree with Bio. nickel is the way to go with KoH. have the plates cut with a cnc plasma cutter and media blasted to increase surface area. getting custom gaskets made would be great too! the finished cell would be superior to anything you could buy off the shelf. clear acrilyic end plates would be a nice touch.

[charliebrumfield]

Media blasted Ni, 28%KOH electrolyte, unipolar configuration

could you enlighten me on the unipolar configuration. after doing a bit of googling i found this post (http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?p=42496) where you have a couple of drawings and a brief description about unipolar designs. this was the way i had originally decided to wire up my plates until i found everybody and their dog saying you have to use neutral plates or else you'll over drive the cell and boil the electrolyte solution. me myself and i think that the unipolar design would be the way to go. but how do you keep from over heating? just ensure that you only run ~ 2 volts to each plate?


I totally aggree with Bio. nickel is the way to go with KoH. have the plates cut with a cnc plasma cutter and media blasted to increase surface area. getting custom gaskets made would be great too! the finished cell would be superior to anything you could buy off the shelf. clear acrilyic end plates would be a nice touch.

don't know if i'm going to have them cnc cut as that's an added expense that i could use to buy more plates to build a larger reactor. but they will defiantly be media blasted. do you have any recommendation on what media to use when blasting? for gaskets i though i would just make a box out of some sheet metal and use it as a die to puch out the gaskets in the shape i want. think really sharp cookie cutter. not sure on the end plates. acrilyic would look pimp but i think metal end plates would allow me to a fix heat sinks to them for better thermal properties.

[BioFarmer93]

could you enlighten me on the unipolar configuration. after doing a bit of googling i found this post (http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?p=42496) where you have a couple of drawings and a brief description about unipolar designs. this was the way i had originally decided to wire up my plates until i found everybody and their dog saying you have to use neutral plates or else you'll over drive the cell and boil the electrolyte solution. me myself and i think that the unipolar design would be the way to go. but how do you keep from over heating? just ensure that you only run ~ 2 volts to each plate?



don't know if i'm going to have them cnc cut as that's an added expense that i could use to buy more plates to build a larger reactor. but they will defiantly be media blasted. do you have any recommendation on what media to use when blasting? for gaskets i though i would just make a box out of some sheet metal and use it as a die to puch out the gaskets in the shape i want. think really sharp cookie cutter. not sure on the end plates. acrilyic would look pimp but i think metal end plates would allow me to a fix heat sinks to them for better thermal properties.

LOL, Charlie-
I know what you mean! I swam against the tide here myself over the bipolar/unipolar issue for quite a while... Then Zero Fossil Fuel built a unipolar electrolyzer (The Bat Cell) and got real good numbers out of it, which inspired Larry (HHOPWR) to build the Magnetic Beastie, from which he has meticulously documented amazing numbers over and over.
The reason everyone builds bipolar (Tero Ranta) style units is because they're easy and they're what has been popularized with the advent of the internet. The unipolar style is a much older design that I remembered from from some reading over twenty years ago and what I based my build on. It stirred interest because it is so different from what others are doing.
Any way, the heat issue is a non-issue with the unipolar design when built correctly. I think Larry (HHOPWR) may have pushed his up around 100A now and struggled to get up to 110F after several hours running, I have pushed mine at 145A on a 4hr. road trip and never got more than slightly warm to the touch on the plate edges. I believe the reason is that there is inherently less resistance in the configuration of plates, and usually more plates than in most bipolar designs. Now the cons- To get the voltage down to around 2V per group, you'll need to build a seven group unit. Sounds huge, but it's not that bad if you go with six or seven plates per group and 3/4" HDPE for end and divider plates- that way you can drill and tap the plate edges to meet perpendicularly drilled holes in the HDPE plate faces for water in and gas out paths at different places on the same piece. That way you don't have to build individual units like I did. This was Larry's idea and it turned out beautifully.

[charliebrumfield]

@biofarmer - do you happen to know of a good diagram showing how to drill and tap the plates/hpde? you kind of lost me with your description and i can't seem to locate anything.

so the trick to keeping the heat down is to run 7 groups runing 6 or 7 plates each right? probably going to have to run tiny ass plates to make it all fit. there's not much room in the miata...

so each group should look like this if you're running 6 plates

+-+-+-|-+-+-+|+-+-+-|-+-+-+|+-+-+-|-+-+-+|+-+-+-

and 7 plates would look like this?

+-+-+-+|-+-+-+-|+-+-+-+|-+-+-+-|+-+-+-+|-+-+-+-|+-+-+-+

+ = positive
- = negative
| = group

if i'm going to have to run that many groups. i'm thinking plate size will need to be around 4"x3" to fit in the space i have to work with on the miata. would a reactor that size still be able to put out 1.5 - 2 lmp @ ~25 amps?

[charliebrumfield]

ok so nickel is turning out to be a biach to find. only located on store today that sold nickel and they want my first born son as a down payment. i was able to find some uncoated Ti pretty cheep, so i may go that route if i can't find nickel for a reasonable price. $129.95 for a 1/8"x12"x12" is ludicrous. or i may try graphite. i've seen a few videos today where folks have been having good success with is. but they were all atleast a year old. has anyone had any luck with graphite or is it a dead end? i wasn't able to find many posts on the forums about it.

[BioFarmer93]

Charlie,
Search for Nickel200. Plates only need to be .025"-.03" thick. Look for rolls of shim stock, probably already at a usable width. Titanium is a waste of money- high resistance. You have the concept down correctly on both of the layouts (6 &7 plate). I'll whip up a quick and dirty sketch on the divider plates, easier than try to explain... OK, maybe this will help- I had it laying around for something else and just added the elbows for clarity.

[charliebrumfield]

max width i can find nickel shim stock is in .010. seems might thin to me. 1/100th of an inch? talk about paper thin... do you possibly remember where you found nickel shim stock over .020?

[charliebrumfield]

ok i get how the elbows are drilled and tapped now. you are basically drilling 1/2 way through the hpde and then coming in at a 90 degree angle with the hole for the pipe elbow.

[myoldyourgold]

Bio and Charlie, do you mind if I poke my nose in hear. Ok I did not hear an answer so I guess its OK. LOL

For your Miata I would be more concerned on how I was going to make any improvement in mileage. The suggested reactor is without fail an efficient reactor but how are you going to take advantage of the HHO is in my humble opinion much more complicated and important. A simple Smack booster might do just as good. LOL I can't believe I said that. Please guys forgive me. I will not do it again. It is true though. I wouldn't suggest that reactor but you get the point. To see an increase you will not need to much HHO if things are done right. I would recommend you spend your hard earned money on a cheaper reactor and more money on the learning and executing what you have learned on how to use the HHO for your particular car. OK I got it off my chest. :D

[charliebrumfield]

Bio and Charlie, do you mind if I poke my nose in hear. Ok I did not hear an answer so I guess its OK. LOL

For your Miata I would be more concerned on how I was going to make any improvement in mileage. The suggested reactor is without fail an efficient reactor but how are you going to take advantage of the HHO is in my humble opinion much more complicated and important. A simple Smack booster might do just as good. LOL I can't believe I said that. Please guys forgive me. I will not do it again. It is true though. I wouldn't suggest that reactor but you get the point. To see an increase you will not need to much HHO if things are done right. I would recommend you spend your hard earned money on a cheaper reactor and more money on the learning and executing what you have learned on how to use the HHO for your particular car. OK I got it off my chest. :D

i could do that but you see i'm a hotrodder at heart. it's not just about how much mpg i can gain from the unit, but how much power i get out of it. you see i'm wanting something scalable since stage two of our build is going to ential a v8 transplant that we will want to use the reactor in. so i figure i'll buld it right the first time and get the bugs worked out of it on the little 1.6 that's in there now and then when we drop the v8 in there it will be a simple job to boost production for the 5 - 6 liter motor that will be taking the place of the tiny 1.6

besides if i built one that was just adequate i'd have to keep fighting the urge to build one that is bigger and better. you're right though i could get by with a much simpler system... and if i was just trying to save a few buck at the pump i'd be doing it as cheep as possible. but this is more of an endeavor to building the best damn reactor i can fit in to that tiny ass car.

[myoldyourgold]

i could do that but you see i'm a hotrodder at heart. it's not just about how much mpg i can gain from the unit, but how much power i get out of it. you see i'm wanting something scalable since stage two of our build is going to ential a v8 transplant that we will want to use the reactor in. so i figure i'll buld it right the first time and get the bugs worked out of it on the little 1.6 that's in there now and then when we drop the v8 in there it will be a simple job to boost production for the 5 - 6 liter motor that will be taking the place of the tiny 1.6

besides if i built one that was just adequate i'd have to keep fighting the urge to build one that is bigger and better. you're right though i could get by with a much simpler system... and if i was just trying to save a few buck at the pump i'd be doing it as cheep as possible. but this is more of an endeavor to building the best damn reactor i can fit in to that tiny ass car.

Great got it. Then Bio has pointed you in the right direction. There are a number of cutting edge things going on that are being tested as I am writing this. You are going to need to build a reactor that produces 4 LPM or more at the upper end with not more than 50 amps unless you are dealing with a diesel. Controlling the ECM to give you the results you need is going to be the trick. Injecting large volumes of HHO comes with a number of real problems that tend to rob you of HP and economy and may cause damage over time. There is a point of diminishing returns. Keep us informed and I am sure there is lots of help available.

[charliebrumfield]

Great got it. Then Bio has pointed you in the right direction. There are a number of cutting edge things going on that are being tested as I am writing this. You are going to need to build a reactor that produces 4 LPM or more at the upper end with not more than 50 amps unless you are dealing with a diesel. Controlling the ECM to give you the results you need is going to be the trick. Injecting large volumes of HHO comes with a number of real problems that tend to rob you of HP and economy and may cause damage over time. There is a point of diminishing returns. Keep us informed and I am sure there is lots of help available.

we're going to be running a custom ecu with the v8 swap so we'll be able to tune the motor to take in account the add hho. i think the biggest problem we are going to have once we get to that level is detonation. i think hho might cause to have to run to lean at higher power applications with to quick a burn. we are wanting to put down 400 rwhp with some where north of a 10:1 compression ratio. so detonation is going to be a real issue if we dump to much hho. however we really wont know anything until we get it on the dyno and actually put some runs on it. until then it's all speculation

[BioFarmer93]

Charlie,
You're insane... However I'm willing to help you as much as I can provided you photo document everything! I try to keep it on the down low, but I'm a closet horsepower freak myself. I just looked at photos- Miata's have trunks.
Build a good sized unit and put it in there to even out the nose heavy condition imposed by putting A FREAKIN' V8 in it. Also aquire a high output alternator, because you're building a test bed vehicle and you'll want the extra amps to run a high output e-lyzer and the water pump for your water injection system to handle detonation. Turbo? Glad to hear you're going with a custom ecu, that will make things a lot more straight forward.

[charliebrumfield]

Charlie,
You're insane...

i'll take that as a compliment. actually the car won't be very nose heavy with the v8 swap. mazda built one hell of a little car with the miata. weight distribution is 50/50 in stock form. 52/48 with a v8. plenty of guys have already made the v8 swap so there's nothing new there. v8 guys are getting better than stock gas mileage too. up around 32mpg stock is 28mpg. more power better fuel ecomeny what's not to like. we're shooting for the first 400hp 40mpg car ever. 40mpg may not be attainable but we're sure as hell going to try for it.

we're going to try to keep the generator out of the trunk if possible as the trunk is for.. well putting stuff in. and there's not much trunk to start with. there is a nice area under the trunk we could use for it. but we were thinking about putting an extra 8gallon fuel cell there. for now the unit will be mounted under the front bumper cover. we may need to add a secondary unit once we go v8 but that's still a ways off. for now we're still working with the stock 1.6l

[myoldyourgold]

Charlie, which V8 are you planning on transplanting?

[lhazleton]

A simple Smack booster might do just as good. LOL I can't believe I said that. Please guys forgive me. I will not do it again.:D

CARTER!!!!! How dare you mention the ASSHAT. Are you trying to kill whatever credibility you have??????????????? You could be shot for such things!:D

[charliebrumfield]

Charlie, which V8 are you planning on transplanting?

still up in the air. either old school pushrod 5.0L if budget dictates it so. more than likely ls1 or ls3. (vette camaro motors) or if i can make it fit, the new 5.0L tivct coyote motor out of the new mustang but i'm pretty sure that's going to require a tube chasis front end as the motor is too wide for the stock shock towers.

if i really had my pick of any motor to use it would be the new twin turbo v6 ford is putting in the new f-150's can you say 400lbs/ft of tq at 1500 rpm???!!! :eek: and it get hella good fuel economy to boot, it's also a much lighter motor as well. it's just to bad that you can't buy it. you have to buy a whole pick up truck just to get it and i have no use for the rest of the truck..

[myoldyourgold]

CARTER!!!!! How dare you mention the ASSHAT. Are you trying to kill whatever credibility you have??????????????? You could be shot for such things!

Gee Lee I asked for forgiveness and promised never to mention it again. You want more well I ain't got more just Sorry should have known better. LOL


if i really had my pick of any motor to use it would be the new twin turbo v6 ford is putting in the new f-150's can you say 400lbs/ft of tq at 1500 rpm???!!!

Charlie Now your talking. That's my truck of choice and motor. I'll take the truck but with the engine. LOL.

[charliebrumfield]

well i've made the first step towards having a fully working hho reactor. i bought enough titanium to make all the cathodes. i decided to go this route for the cathode as i found enough of it for cheep. ended up costing me a bit less than 2 bucks per 4" x 6" plate shipped.

now i'm trying to figure out what to use as an anode. titanium won't work for the anode as oxygen collects on the anode and oxidizes the titanium which ceases the electrolysis process.

nurdrage has a good vid showing this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDZDRzMGa6c

i would love to use nickel but i have yet to find a source that sells nickel at prices i can afford. cheapest i have found is the shim stock that was suggested earlier in the thread, but i can't find it any thicker than .010". i'm not comfortable using anything less that .020". my ideal thickness would be .025"

does anyone have a link to somewhere selling nickel shim stock thicker than .010"?

if i can't find nickel i may purchase some grafoil gtx (chemically resistant pure flexible graphite foil) and try it. i've seen where folks have tried to make hho reactors out of graphite with some success so i'm willing to give it a try. i really don't want to use 316l stainless steel so i'm going to try everything i can to avoid it.

[myoldyourgold]

i really don't want to use 316l stainless steel so i'm going to try everything i can to avoid it.

Charlie, can you explain your disdain for 316L

[charliebrumfield]

Charlie, can you explain your disdain for 316L

stainless steel has some really nasty stuff in it that i do not want to have to dispose of or work with if i do not have too. as a rule i try to avoid working with stainless steel if i can. it can cause some real nasty side effects if you inhale the fumes while welding it. and i'm positive those same chemicals are produced through electrolysis as you get when you weld it.

Below is a quote from the eLCOSH website about the working hazards of stainless steel. Click the quote to see the full article.


Stainless steel contains nickel and chromium, which can cause asthma. Nickel and chromium 6 can cause cancer. Chromium can cause sinus problems and “holes” between the nostrils. (http://www.elcosh.org/en/document/38/d000026/hazard-alert%253A-welding-fumes.html)

if i can't find another suitable anode i'll have to use 316 ss but i want to try and avoid it if possible.

[arcronis]

Hi Charlie, why is the dry cell left open??
Why could it not be a sealed unit just thinking along the leakage scenero...
If it is for heat transfer?
Why couldn't the unit be filled with a heat absorbent liquid, sorry for all the questions but I look at it and see this as possibly a great way to control the heat and any small leakage......Charlie your views will be really appreciated
cheers from the land down under

[BioFarmer93]

Arcronis,
The term "dry cell" is relative, it is actually filled with a distilled water and KOH mixture that makes up the electrolyte from which the hydrogen and oxygen are electrochemically extracted. It is not left open as there would be no way to collect the gasses created. Typically dry cells are sealed up quite well with gaskets and clamping pressure from bolts & nuts that hold the entire structure together. The bubble lift and thermosiphon effects from the operation of the of the unit continually carry heat away from it. A well designed electrolyzer operated within proper parameters will not overheat. If you have not already, I would recommend you peruse several HHO videos on Youtube and look closely at the construction. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

[charliebrumfield]

Hi Charlie, why is the dry cell left open??
Why could it not be a sealed unit just thinking along the leakage scenero...
If it is for heat transfer?
Why couldn't the unit be filled with a heat absorbent liquid, sorry for all the questions but I look at it and see this as possibly a great way to control the heat and any small leakage......Charlie your views will be really appreciated
cheers from the land down under

well my views are by no means expert as i have yet to build a working dry cell reactor so i shall refer you to biofarmer's post


Arcronis,
The term "dry cell" is relative, it is actually filled with a distilled water and KOH mixture that makes up the electrolyte from which the hydrogen and oxygen are electrochemically extracted. It is not left open as there would be no way to collect the gasses created. Typically dry cells are sealed up quite well with gaskets and clamping pressure from bolts & nuts that hold the entire structure together. The bubble lift and thermosiphon effects from the operation of the of the unit continually carry heat away from it. A well designed electrolyzer operated within proper parameters will not overheat. If you have not already, I would recommend you peruse several HHO videos on Youtube and look closely at the construction. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

and becuase i'm feeling generous and happen fo have a bunch of links to hho videos here's a few for you to look at

probably the best video on hho reactor design i have found. a bit boring but very informative.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUYa2UhnSeM

good time lapse video showing the build of a small reactor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q4H9C8N2LY

[Brent]

Charlie,
Search for Nickel200. Plates only need to be .025"-.03" thick. Look for rolls of shim stock, probably already at a usable width. Titanium is a waste of money- high resistance. You have the concept down correctly on both of the layouts (6 &7 plate). I'll whip up a quick and dirty sketch on the divider plates, easier than try to explain... OK, maybe this will help- I had it laying around for something else and just added the elbows for clarity.

I measured the ohm resistance of Ti compared to 316 stainless across a 12" length. 316 measured .05 ohms and Ti (6ALV4) measured .03 ohms. Ti is less resistant then SS. Which I suspected but wanted some exact figures.

[BioFarmer93]

Very cool- thank you!

[Brent]

At those measurements it's splitting hairs anyway. It's easily within the margin of error on my Fluke multi-tester.

[charliebrumfield]

I measured the ohm resistance of Ti compared to 316 stainless across a 12" length. 316 measured .05 ohms and Ti (6ALV4) measured .03 ohms. Ti is less resistant then SS. Which I suspected but wanted some exact figures.

thanks for the info. went ahead and snagged some commercially pure ti plates to use for the cathodes. now i'm just looking for something suitable for the anodes. i;m going to try to use grafoil and see if it works. i'll be ordering some this week. if it doesn't work i have a more expensive option that may work, but don't want to spend that much cash unless i have to.

[myoldyourgold]

CONDUCTIVITY OF METALS SORTED BY RESISTIVITY

http://www.eddy-current.com/condres.htm

[H2OPWR]

I have used just about everything and here is my 2 cents worth. Hitempmetals sells Nickel 200. You can buy just about any size you want. Buy 35 guage or so and media blast it. First use 80 grit or so and do a good blast. It is easy to warp the metal but with care you can keep it flat. Then switch to a very fine media. Maybe 320 grit or so. It is difficult to use because it is like blasting baby powder but important as the surface area greatly increases. I can help with advice as to how to make it work if you are interested. You can get away with much less metal if you use nicklel because heat will not cause hexcrom like ss leaches, The overall cost of meterials will not be that much more because you can feed Nickel with more amps than you can feed SS. The device can be smaller and still get the same volume of gas.

Simply if you want to do good tests go big or go home!

Larry

[charliebrumfield]

how much are we talking cost wise? ever where i've called to ask about the nickel 200 plates has quoted me astronomical prices.

[H2OPWR]

I read through this thread. You priced really thick stuff. Yes Nickel is more expensive. I will admit I used 316L Stainless for my last build because I used plates. At that time I beleive raw material Nickel over stainless was 6 times the price. The last Nickel I bought cost me about $30.00 per pound. I made 20 8X8 plates and if my emory is working the raw material cost was about $20.00 per plate or so. I am not sure what your goal for LPM is but you can push the Nickel much harder than the stainless so the size can be smaller. You might look up Shane Jackson in the members list as well. I know he had some Nickel plates for sale at a really good price. He bought a larger quantity than I did so he got a better price. Shane doesn't hang around here any more but if you e-mail him I am sure he would answer. If he does not answer you then let me know. I can get in touch with him.

On another topic I read that you want to use Titanium as the cathode and another metal as the Anode like Nickel. I would be careful with that one. I have never personally used Titanium but know several that have. It has only one redeaming quality. It does not leach hexcrom. Other than that it is your worst choice. I would avoid using dis-similar metals in a cell. Just like not using a dielectric union to connect copper to steel pipe. Or how the stubblefield coil works. The softer metal always gives up its electron and corrodes. I think the Stainless or Nickel might have a real problem being used along with Titanium. I could be completely wrong but if you did use Nickel and Titanium in the same cell and ruined the Nickel you would not be a happy camper.

Good luck with your project. I look forward to seeing how you can make HHO work by programing your ECU to accept it. It is something I always wanted to see someone do.

Larry

[Brent]

Keep in mind pure Nickle (Alloy 200) is about twice the cost of Titanium. And the sizes needed are not that big so finding surplus drop pieces isn't that hard. Ti drops can be sold retail for far more money then to recyclers. There also more industrial uses for Ti then pure nickle.

But that won't stop me from experimenting with nickle down the road either. HHO is one avenue of technology that needs a lot of experimenters constantly trying new ideas.

[charliebrumfield]

thanks for the input guys. and brent you hit it spot on. the more folks plugging away at cell designs the better off we will be in the long run.

h20pwr i really like the idea of using nickel for all the plates but even if i just bought enough nickel for the anodes at 20 bones a plate that puts my cost at $360 :eek: there's no way i could plunk down another $360 for the cathodes as well. and good call about the dissimilar metals. it really easy to forget that we are all essentially creating an electro plating tank. however i won't be using a metal for the anode. so i wonder if it would have the same effect? i'm going to order some grafoil and see if i can get that to work. if not it's cheep enough that it won't break the bank.

[H2OPWR]

thanks for the input guys. and brent you hit it spot on. the more folks plugging away at cell designs the better off we will be in the long run.

h20pwr i really like the idea of using nickel for all the plates but even if i just bought enough nickel for the anodes at 20 bones a plate that puts my cost at $360 :eek: there's no way i could plunk down another $360 for the cathodes as well. and good call about the dissimilar metals. it really easy to forget that we are all essentially creating an electro plating tank. however i won't be using a metal for the anode. so i wonder if it would have the same effect? i'm going to order some grafoil and see if i can get that to work. if not it's cheep enough that it won't break the bank.

I followed a thread on another forum a couple of years ago on Graphite plates. The thread had one guy pushing Graphite as the plate material and several others following his lead. The guy touting graphite was origionally on this site but left to start his Graphite plate thread on another site. He called the people here Stainless Sheeples and laughed at them all for refusing Graphite. To make a long story short all his followers ended up mad at him because the Graphite turned the water black and performed poorly. The followers were mad because he claimed to have been running his cell for years but there was never any video proof. The thread abruptly ended with the guy saying the Graphite supplier must have sold them all the wrong product. There were never any additional posts after that.

I am not saying it wont work. In fact if it is cheap enough I would love to see someone try it. I am just recounting the only time I have even read about it being used.

Here is everything I have tried and my results.

Lead plates. Worked well for a VERY short time then the lead from the anode eroded and shorted out the entire cell. A complete failure.

Brass, Seemed to work OK but turned black quickly and was not as effecient as Stainless.

Stainless Steel 316L, The all around workhorse. Can leach hexcrom if overdriven but if you do not overdrive the plates works well.

Nano Particle coated Stainless, Outstanding production. The best performing material I have ever used but you don't even want to know how much it costs. Also after a long tome the coating came off. Maybe because I over worked it. Just TOO EXPENSIVE to try again.

Nickel 200, My first choice if I were making a reasonable sized cell. Overall better performance than stainless with no bad side effects. It is just very expensive.

I have always wanted to try a copper cathode and a nickel anode but have neeb afraid of the dissimilar metal issue. I know as an anode the copper will be destroyed very quickly as it corrodes and plates on the anode.



Another thing you will have to think about. If you are using a bipolar or neutral plate set up you don't have seperate anodes and cathodes except on your power plates. All the neutral plates are bipolar. One side will be an anode while the other side will be a cathode. You would have to somehow bond the two together while still letting them conduct electricity. That will be quite the trick.

If you are making a unipolar style cell then you can make it work.

Larry

[charliebrumfield]

i've read that post. as a matter of fact that is what pointed me in the direction of grafoil. grafooil is not the same stuff they used to make their reactors. grafoil is used to make gaskets that have to stand up to corrosive environments. so i think it should hold up to the electrolyte. now it still may fall apart once you run current thought it, but since i only payed 3 dollars a plate for them i figured it's going to be worth a shot.

[H2OPWR]

i've read that post. as a matter of fact that is what pointed me in the direction of grafoil. grafooil is not the same stuff they used to make their reactors. grafoil is used to make gaskets that have to stand up to corrosive environments. so i think it should hold up to the electrolyte. now it still may fall apart once you run current thought it, but since i only payed 3 dollars a plate for them i figured it's going to be worth a shot.

You still have one big problem to solve before you start your build. I did look at the links you posted that show how you want to build your cell.

You are building a standard Tero Ranta style dry cell. You will be using neutral plates in your design. Your neutral plate which are commonly referred to as bipolar plates are not either an anode or a cathode. Each neutral plate is in fact both. One side will be an anode and the other side will be a cathode. You will end up with a Grafoil plate that is positive on one side and negative on the other side. Then the next plate will be Titanium. It will also be positive on one side and negative on the other. In effect both materials will be both anodes and cathodes. The anode side of the Titanium will quickly corrode and stop producing. That is why the people using Titanium use the MMO coating to protect the Titanium.

Larry

[charliebrumfield]

the links i posted were in response to someone asking about how to build a dry cell. i'm not actually building a bipolar or tero ranta style dry cell i'm building a unipolar dry cell. bio farmer convinced me to do that in the first couple of posts.

[H2OPWR]

the links i posted were in response to someone asking about how to build a dry cell. i'm not actually building a bipolar or tero ranta style dry cell i'm building a unipolar dry cell. bio farmer convinced me to do that in the first couple of posts.

Great then that solves that issue. I guess I missed that part. Unipolar designs are far superior in my opinion. Just more work. I look forward to seeing how your design works.

Larry

[Darrell]

I would have to agree with that Larry.

There is no question about it!

"D"