? on thermolysis of steam and plasma

[yellowsnow]

I have posted before about themolysis (using high heat to break down water into hho).

If i was to take a regular plasma cutting torch, and a quartz tube with steam flowing through it... According to known science I would be able to put the quartz tube close enough to the sustained plasma that the steam flowing through it is broke down to HHO by thermolysis.

Question 1: Would the quartz hold up? It might get some cooling from new steam flowing in.

Question 2: Would that newly broke down HHO be auto ignited by electric arcs or by the extreme heat? Is it possible to do without igniting??

[BioFarmer93]

I have posted before about themolysis (using high heat to break down water into hho).

If i was to take a regular plasma cutting torch, and a quartz tube with steam flowing through it... According to known science I would be able to put the quartz tube close enough to the sustained plasma that the steam flowing through it is broke down to HHO by thermolysis.

Question 1: Would the quartz hold up? It might get some cooling from new steam flowing in.

Question 2: Would that newly broke down HHO be auto ignited by electric arcs or by the extreme heat? Is it possible to do without igniting??

Sounds like an experiment to me! Start gathering goodies! Oh, wait, maybe I can save you some time- Its auto ignition temperature is 570 C (1065 F), and at anything even remotely close to room temp the tiniest static spark will ignite it, how hot is plasma? Plasma arcs are extremely hot and are in the range of 15,000 degrees Celsius. And the quartz?-
Quartz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Melting point, 1670 °C (β tridymite) 1713 °C (β cristobalite) ... α-quartz crystallizes in the trigonal crystal system, space group P3121 and P3221 ...
Hey- wait a minute... why the hell am I looking this stuff up for you? Aw, man... I can't believe I fell for another lazy noob trick..... DAMN!!:rolleyes:

[lhazleton]

Hey- wait a minute... why the hell am I looking this stuff up for you? Aw, man... I can't believe I fell for another lazy noob trick..... DAMN!!:rolleyes:

LOL Gus!
It's been a while, but you got me going again!!!!:D

[yellowsnow]

well sounds like you need to re educate your self on the subject of thermolysis. At around/over 3200 degree C steam/water is broke down into HHO. This is being done right now by use of focused solar heat to collect HHO (makes you question the auto ignite numbers). I am simply looking at this route for more efficiant production. And playing with the idea of a plasma heat source.

I just want to experiment on the question of if a plasma heat source requires 2400watts and a supply of inert gas, will the massive heat produced thermally decompose more steam into HHO than energy put in. Plasma is some wicked stuff and not completely understood.
I have spent many hours reseaching this stuff, but there isn't much info on thermolysis. If you google Thermolysis half of the info you find was wrote by me.:eek: (not counting solar thermolysis and hair removel thermolysis)

[yellowsnow]

and as far as the quartz goes yes i looked up the temps for it. They say it is good for about 2800 degree C. BUT in the CVD diamond process the plasma reactor they use uses a quartz tube to contain the plasma. So regardless of the numbers, it holds up in a simular setup.
and i was assuming you could picture that the tube doesn't need to be directly in the 14000 degree plasma, just close enough to break down the steam for HHO (starts at around 1500C, needs around 3000C to be efficeant).



sorry for not expanding on my questions

[BioFarmer93]

No, smartass,
I didn't Google thermolysis.. Nor do I need to re-educate myself on thermolysis since that would pre-suppose that I had ever educated myself on it in the first place. I looked up the three items I responded about. I accept no credit/blame if the sources of the info don't correspond to the info you seem to already have. Perhaps by now you have noticed that I'm the only one so far that even attempted to respond to your questions? Maybe that's because we are primarily devoted to electrolyser & balance of system R&D here and thermolysis is off in another direction that few of us are familiar with and even fewer of us are interested in pursuing. In closing, I'll say that if you have written half of what is available on the net about the subject, then I dub thee HHO Forums Thermolysis King and will direct all future questions on the subject (should there be any) to you. LONG LIVE THE KING!

[yellowsnow]

No, smartass,
I didn't Google thermolysis.. Nor do I need to re-educate myself on thermolysis since that would pre-suppose that I had ever educated myself on it in the first place.

Then why even post TROLL? i didn't post to get people to google for me. I just was looking for different perpective.


PS some of us already know electrolysis has hit its top efficiantcy and are looking in other dirrections

[Roland Jacques]

I guess you already answered your original question. I wonder how anybody came up with a auto ignition temp for HHO. I have a feeling it was with bottled H2 mixed with bottled O2. HHO qualities vary so much...

A few folks have mixed HHO with GEET reactors upwards of 1000f with know ignition issues. I think you have a interesting idea. :)

[myoldyourgold]

PS some of us already know electrolysis has hit its top efficiantcy and are looking in other dirrections

I am very curious as to what you call top efficiency? Maybe you could educate some of us. Some how I doubt you have experienced anything close to it if you even know what it is. Please correct me if I am wrong. Oh by the way who is Us.

[BioFarmer93]

Then why even post TROLL? i didn't post to get people to google for me. I just was looking for different perpective.


PS some of us already know electrolysis has hit its top efficiantcy and are looking in other dirrections

TROLL?? That's a hoot, noob. Obviously you posses WAY too much class and intelligence for this poor forum, so why bother coming here? Obviously we're still beating our heads against the electrolysis wall while mighty brains like yourself are pursuing far more esoteric options.
I answered your initial questions because you are a noob to this forum, and the nature of the questions asked implied that you had read an article somewhere and were going to attempt something dangerous to you and whatever buddy you talked into letting you use his cutter. I had no clue you were such a dedicated scientific researcher, not to mention responsible for fully half of the available information about thermolysis on the net.
Just out of curiosity, in those heady scientific papers you publish, does your spelling get any better than this???

[oicu812]

hey, a hundred years ago towns all across the country used to inject steam into white hot coal to produce towns gas. a hydrogen rich gas used for lighting and cooking. eventually town gas was replaced with natural gas. I bet there's still rural places in pennsylvania or west virginia that use it today.

[myoldyourgold]

I was seriously thinking about putting a flatulence trapping devise on a heard of cows and using the gas to cook and heat with. The only problem I am having is the cows are not cooperating. I can not figure out why. :eek:

[oicu812]

hey i'm a power lineman and was working at a large dairy farm last week. I noticed the manure digester and asked some questions. the guy said the system cost about $30,000 bucks and provides all the gas for the farm. he had 500 head and said his 50 KVA three phase stand -by generator can run for weeks if it had to.

[myoldyourgold]

That is second hand gas I want them both. LOL Manure digesters are a proven science and work especially good in warm climates. In the frozen north they are not very efficient with out some energy used to warm things up.

[oicu812]

I'm here in Western NY:D That system was working great. Your probebly right though when the temps get down below zero:eek: I can see problems.

[Roland Jacques]

Compost generates it on heat so...

Have you noticed how this thread has gone to ****

[oicu812]

getting back on topic,? thermolysis of steam is great as long as you have a economical way of generating 3000 degree F. Unfortunatly most of dont have a couple hundred tons of coal laying around. Sure you could use a plasma torch but it would be a drastic net energy loss. I suppose you could take out a second morgage and invest in a solar furnace but I dont think the wife would be on board with the plan:eek:

[yellowsnow]

i just look at the over 15000C temps of plasma and think, that is a huge amount of heat energy that something could be done with. If you look into the plasma reactors used in the CVD diamond process, they make plasma using less energy than a plasma torch, basically a microwave with hydrogen piped in to make the plasma.. So that about 1500watts and hydrogen. Some people are running electrolysis cells that run that much wattage. I don't see making 3000C as taking an extreme amount of energy if you use plasma to do it.

There is so little information on this.....

The plasma is hot enough to produce HHO from steam. FACT
The question is how much HHO can it make?
With that kinda of temperatures it could be a significant amount, but seems no one has even really looked into it.

my plans for when i have extra money (probly never)

get a plasma torch, quartz tubing and maybe ceramic tubing. And instead of using heat to make steam, i would use an ultrasonic fogger to produce the water vapor. And just do some experiments to see.

[oicu812]

Do you have a link to that plasma reactor yellow snow? 1500 watts sounds like the cats ass! I had a trouble call yesterday at a house . The guy was using a CNC plasma cutter along with a 5 hp air compressor. He bought the CNC machine for $19,000. The house had a 120/240 60 amp service. He burnt one of his hotlegs in half from the amp draw.

[yellowsnow]

Do you have a link to that plasma reactor yellow snow? 1500 watts sounds like the cats ass! I had a trouble call yesterday at a house . The guy was using a CNC plasma cutter along with a 5 hp air compressor. He bought the CNC machine for $19,000. The house had a 120/240 60 amp service. He burnt one of his hotlegs in half from the amp draw.

http://www.sekicvdsolutions.com/microwave-plasma/products/AX6300.html


basically to make real diamonds you take a microwave and pipe in hydrogen and a little oxygen to make a small plasma ball. You start with a tiny chip of diamond, then make a plasma ball over the chip, then inject methane into the plasma ball. The plasma will break down the methane to carbon and slowly deposite in layers diamond film onto the chip growing a bigger diamond. This process is called chemical vapor deposit CVD.

[yellowsnow]

so the idea is that once running it may produce enough HHO to take over the inert gas side of the plasma (i.e. run its self and not need a tank of gas) and produce a significant excess of HHO. Which isn't far fetched when considering the temp of plasma compare to the temp needed to consistantly break down the water vapor/steam.

that with a 1500watt usage...you look at the numbers and it really looks good.:)



oh forgot: before the plasma cutter their was the Atomic Hydrogen Torch/welder. basically an electric arc with hydrogen blown across it. They also used hydrogen and oxygen which worked awsome as well. I think they still use this for under water welding....(not much info out there on atomic hydrogen)

[myoldyourgold]

We have gone from making gobar gas to making diamonds and that is something in one thread on thermolysis of steam and plasma. I am enjoying it though. I am out of my league when comes to thermolysis of steam and plasma but only because of the lack of $$ and I guess a few missing gray cells. LOL. Interesting stuff though.

[yellowsnow]

We have gone from making gobar gas to making diamonds and that is something in one thread on thermolysis of steam and plasma. I am enjoying it though. I am out of my league when comes to thermolysis of steam and plasma but only because of the lack of $$ and I guess a few missing gray cells. LOL. Interesting stuff though.

all you need is a microwave and hydrogen and oxygen. So where is some one on a HHO forum gonna get those gases for cheap??? i was talking about a plasma cutter only for ease of experimentingplasma is very dangerous, don't try anythong i am talking about

[yellowsnow]

so if you took your HHO torch and blew it across your arc welders spark you would have a atomic hydrogen torch

and if you took the magnatron out of a microwave and blew your HHO torch threw the field you would also have plasma

[oicu812]

so if you took your HHO torch and blew it across your arc welders spark you would have a atomic hydrogen torch

and if you took the magnatron out of a microwave and blew your HHO torch threw the field you would also have plasma Ok I see what you mean. Intresting:) I also have built torches and have done a little playing around with plasma. Using ignition coils capaciters and a ton of high voltage diodes I have exploded water mist in plasma. It was really cool and scared the $hit out of the dog but was'nt really practable. This magnatron idea has my intrest:) Like you said before passing water vapor from a ultrasonic humidifier through the field might work. I see now how the power consumsion wouldn't be that terrible, ( 1500 watts is not too bad)

[yellowsnow]

their is a lot of info on microwaves. Just remember that the metal case incorperrated with the substance used for the window makes a type of circuit. I think that circuit is necessery for excess power absorbtion.

i also read about what is called a dummy load. which is a device you can put into a microwave and it will make it to where you can put metal in the microwave without all the sparking.

[yellowsnow]

to anyone really interested in making diamonds.. yes you can make a plasma reactor out of a house hold microwave. BUT it is hard to make a clear perfect diamond. it takes the exact perfect amount of gases and (low)pressure in the reactor. which you need very expensive flow meters to control. you may be able to make diamond by winging the amounts, but youll probly end up with a poop colored diamond.

[Roland Jacques]

I think you have a great doable idea.

The theory With the GEET reactor is the same as you discrib. acheiving plasma adding steam... The problem with the GEET is they rarely ever reaches plasma state (i mean Extremely rarely). But the few time that has been said to have reach it. Yeah Lots of HHO with fantastic results. Most of the time just the Geet a good fuel vaporizer...

[yellowsnow]

I think you have a great doable idea.

The theory With the GEET reactor is the same as you discrib. acheiving plasma adding steam... The problem with the GEET is they rarely ever reaches plasma state (i mean Extremely rarely). But the few time that has been said to have reach it. Yeah Lots of HHO with fantastic results. Most of the time just the Geet a good fuel vaporizer...

yes i came to the same conclusion (Fuel Vaporizer). but add a real plasma source and there ya go....it is enough heat to keep up with disassociating high volumes of water vapor which would run a combustion engine completely.

BP SUCKS:D

[yellowsnow]

THIS IS IT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz59hw_E7q0
they are already doing it, but not with water. they say they reach 5500C. ... but i am basically talking about doing this on a smaller scale and using water instead of coal and trash. syngas burns dirty, hydrogen burns clean. what i have read says i could reach a higher temp. With a household microwave and hydrogen you should be able to reach over 10000C. You don't need a plasma ball as big as a couch .

[yellowsnow]

i am wanting to get experimenting with this, but the idea of using an HHO torch to supply the plasma ball is not the best because of flash back concerns.

But if i had a tank of hydrogen i could experiment and get the initial efficiantcy. And im pretty sure once a plasma ball is start, if I started injecting water vapor into the plasma i should be able to slowly switch from hydrogen to water vapor only supplying the plasma.

[myoldyourgold]

i am wanting to get experimenting with this, but the idea of using an HHO torch to supply the plasma ball is not the best because of flash back concerns.

But if i had a tank of hydrogen i could experiment and get the initial efficiantcy. And im pretty sure once a plasma ball is start, if I started injecting water vapor into the plasma i should be able to slowly switch from hydrogen to water vapor only supplying the plasma.

You could build a splitter reactor and use a special built torch if need be that adds back a portion of the O and vents the rest or use all the O for a really hot flame. No flash back any more than in an ordinary welding torch.

[yellowsnow]

It's been a long time. The ressesion has caused me to not be able to try any of this, but I do think it is still a viable idea.

But I just want to keep the idea rattling in someones head. So here is a bump.

[mmmjjg]

What if the plasma field was created within a vaccum? wouldnt that drastically reduce the temperatures at wich plasma could be created?